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Key Taiwan Tech Firms Are Helping Huawei With China Chip Plants

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-03/taiwan-tech-companies-are-helping-huawei-build-a-secret-network-of-chip-plants

Several Taiwanese technology companies are helping Huawei Technologies Co. build infrastructure for an under-the-radar network of chip plants across southern China, an unusual collaboration that risks inflaming sentiment on a democratic island grappling with Beijing’s growing belligerence.

Key Taiwan Tech Firms Are Helping Huawei With China Chip Plants

Full article: https://imgur.com/a/SwMitsV

75 comments

Tankiedesantski

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China is helping China develop Chinese chips?

shocked-pikachu

Utter_Karate

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If the Chinese help China build this Chinese infrastructure, it may reduce Chinese dependence on Chinese chips, since China will be able to produce its own chips instead of buying them from China. This may hurt China economically long term, since China is the largest buyer of Chinese chips by far and if they start buying chips produced in China instead of Chinese chips China's economy might shrink.

Then again this is probably not that big a deal. Just more anti-Chinese propaganda by the US, pushing for Chinese independence from China, without quite going all the way and recognizing China as its own country, since that would go against the long standing policy that China is one country and China is part of that country.

Tankiedesantski

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Okay but how much wood would a wood chuck chuck tho?

Utter_Karate

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A LOT. If those fuckers could chuck wood I would even go so far as to say probably all of it.

lud

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Republic of China ≠ People's republic of China.

Tankiedesantski

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Well yes. One is the result of a bloodthirsty and corrupt military dictatorship which is directly responsible for the deaths of millions, whereas the other is the People's Republic of China.

However, both are China as you can see from the names they've chosen for themselves.

lud

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One is one of the most democratic countries in the world and PRC is one of the most undemocratic countries of the world.

umbrella

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"one of the most democratic countries in the world" might be a bit of a stretch here

Tankiedesantski

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Democracy is when you spend several decades murdering and repressing all leftist political opposition. The more leftists to murder and suppress, the more democratic it is.

State Department Handbook, probably

lud

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Democracy is when the people can vote for their politicians instead of countries like the PRC where they are forced.

Pili

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Democracy is when the people can vote for ~~their politicians instead of countries like the PRC where they are forced.~~ a selection of candidates handpicked by the US government.

freagle

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If you were forced to vote for people would you be satisfied or dissatisfied with your government?

Then why does China have a 95.5% approval rating for their government that spans 15 years?

brain_in_a_box

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Australia also forces their people to vote, are we also "one of the most undemocratic countries in the world"

Tankiedesantski

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Only the PRC is recognized as a country under international law. The RoC government squatting in Taiwan Province is legally no different to the ISIS occupation of parts of Iraq.

The PRC is one of the few truly sovereign states in the world, able to resist American domination on its own terms. The residents of Taiwan Province get to vote between stooges of American imperialism and stooges of Japanese imperialism.

lud

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The rest of the world is seemingly too scared to upset the PRC so many won't recognize Taiwan. Many countries maintain unofficial relationships.

It's obviously a country and it's useless discussing this further with a tankie.

The PRC is one of the few truly sovereign states in the world, able to resist American domination on its own terms.

How do you define "American domination" and what other countries do you consider to be affected by it? Personally I don't feel dominated by idiots.

Tankiedesantski

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It's obviously a country and it's useless discussing this further with a tankie.

Renowned Tankies, the states parties to the Montevideo Convention. Hardcore Stalinists, the lot of them!

How do you define "American domination" and what other countries do you consider to be affected by it?

"It's useless discussing with a Tankie!", proceeds to discuss with a Tankie. Very good rhetoric, 10/10.

lud

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So you can't define it. What a shocker.

Sometimes it's just funny to discuss things with morons. It makes you feel like a genius in comparison.

ArthurParkerhouse

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Vaush?

TheAnonymouseJoker

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boredtortoise

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Yeah. Not many know that Taiwan is the true China, waiting for the mainland

TheAnonymouseJoker

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boredtortoise

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There's really nothing to continue. Of course on your take we could consider that the mainland Chinese people are China and some day they'll have a new revolution from the oligarchy. But I'm not holding my breath on that happening anywhere

TheAnonymouseJoker

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boredtortoise

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I don't know if oligarchy has different definitions somewhere. I meant this:

oligarchy /ˈɒlɪɡɑːki/, noun

a small group of people having control of a country or organization.

lud

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They don't want to be reunified under a PRC government like the PRC wants, instead they have a claim on present PRC territory.

Taiwan is independent nowadays though.

Tankiedesantski

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Taiwan is independent nowadays though.

Independence from China is when one of the emblems of your armed forces is this:

AssortedBiscuits

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And speaking of the ROC Marine Corps, the ROC claims more parts of the South China Sea than the PRC (11 dash line vs 9 dash line), but unlike its claims of Mongolia, which is treated as a joke that no one takes seriously, the ROC is very serious in its pursuit of its claims to the SCS by building naval bases and holding regular naval exercises. Here's Vietnam diplomatically telling the ROC to fuck off from the Spratly Islands.

A Republic of Taiwan has no conceivable grounds to pursuit any claims to the SCS because the SCS is nowhere close to what the territorial waters of a hypothetical ROT would be and a ROT is not part of any international treaty which a ROT could use to justify de jure control. But it's not claiming the SCS as a ROT but as the ROC. And unlike a ROT, the ROC as China does have international agreement which would give it de jure control over the SCS. This is how you know Taiwanese separatism is farcical. It's all "Taiwan is culturally and politically distinct from China" until the SCS is involved then it's suddenly, "aktually as the Republic of China, these are Chinese water and thus our territorial waters since we are the Republic of China you see." But then again, what else do you expect from the political (and literal) descendants of Japanese fascist collaborators who (not so secretly) wish they were Japanese?

baseless_discourse

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determinism2

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excellent protection of indigenous culture

doubt

Tankiedesantski

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Funnily enough, the US is an oligarchy, does not have universal health care, has absolutely shithouse protections for indigenous peoples, and a corporate controlled press that engages in self censorship. By this guy's criteria, America is not an independent sovereign country.

freagle

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The "ROC" committed genocide against indigenous culture as part of the 40-years known as the White Terror. WTF are you talking about?

IzyaKatzmann

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I think the poster was being sarcastic, in agreement with you.

freagle

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Sorry, miscommented

Tankiedesantski

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None of the things you stated matter even a little as far as international law is concerned. You might subjectively think that those factors make an independent country, but your subjective opinion simply doesn't matter because international law determines statehood, not am arbitrary list of "oh, well that's nice" factors.

baseless_discourse

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Do you not understand what "burocracy" mean? it is the case "burocracically", but "functionally" Taiwan and China are simply not tied whatsoever. Hence calling Taiwan part of China is "unhelpful".

Feel like I am teaching in an elementary school...

Tankiedesantski

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Thankfully you are not teaching in an elementary school because I would expect an elementary school teacher to know the correct spelling of "bureaucracy".

The point you are flailing at is that Taiwan, Province of China is de jure part of China (and the vast majority of the world's nations recognizes the People's Republic of China as the sole legitimate government of China. De facto there is another entity occupying Taiwan Province.

Contrary to you claim that they are "not tied whatsoever", the ROC splinter government on Taiwan maintains a de jure claim over all of China (plus Mongolia) as blatantly illustrated by the official emblem of the ROC Marine Corps:

No country or international organization recognizes de facto control as the primary determing factor of independence or sovereignty. This is why terrorist organizations like ISIS or criminal gangs like certain cartels aren't considered sovereign states simply because they occupy and administer territory.

The_Jewish_Cuban

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It's bureaucracy and bureaucratically

I'm not even trying to be a dick, I just had to look up what you wrote to make sure that it wasn't something else.

Furthermore, your point is correct regardless of whether or not people agree with the PRC or ROC being the leader of China overall, Taiwan province is an independently functioning government.

freagle

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The “ROC” committed genocide against indigenous culture as part of the 40-years known as the White Terror. WTF are you talking about?

Ram_The_Manparts

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Taiwan (RoC) is politically independent from China. It is a democratic state with universal healthcare, excellent protection of indigenous culture, and a highly rated free press.

I like how this part reads like a chatbot.

ThereRisesARedStar

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excellent protection of indigenous culture

Lmao, this is like saying the US has excellent protection of indigenous culture.

Recognized or not, it is a independent political, economical, and cultural entity from China. Calling it part of China is just unhelpful burocracy.

Except for the part that they claim they are part of China, are strongly economically coupled with China, and are full of Chinese people, sure.

Eggyhead

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Yes. Possibly so China can afford defenses to prevent an invasion of China by China, because China seems to think it needs to invade China to make sure it knows it’s China.

Blursty

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grappling with Beijing’s growing belligerence.

Its what? Western news is so full of shit.

Tankiedesantski

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Developing 5G communications and microchips for cellphones is belligerence. Bombing countries and funneling weapons to proxy wars is peace.

baseless_discourse

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zephyreks

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No fucking way! You mean a country that's almost completely aligned in terms of culture and language and food, and for which immigration policy is basically an open door, and for which economic coupling is at an all time high... trades with their closest neighbour?

Jesus Christ who comes up with these articles?

CollisionResistance

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I think it's time to bring some democracy and freedom to Taiwan.

Tankiedesantski

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TheAnonymouseJoker

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aaaaaaadjsf

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Good. Not only one country or society should be able to manufacture advanced technology. Monopolies are bad.

Tankiedesantski

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It's like people have already forgotten about the COVID microchip shortages.

Fishroot

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A small country that is economy dependent of another country that happens to be their biggest trader has interest to work with that trading partner.

More at 11

NateNate60

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This is a straight-up national security issue for Taiwan. Its chip factories are an integral part of its defence strategy and it needs to be able to use them as leverage to survive.

Tankiedesantski

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In which case Taiwan Province should refuse American demands to build chip factories in the US. If Taiwan's strategic value comes from microchips then the US not having it's own domestic supply prevents the US from walking away.

On the other hand, reunification has been a core interest for China since long before microchips were even a thing. You could Thanos snap all the chip foundries away tomorrow and the Chinese interest in reunification would not substantially diminish.

NateNate60

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Taiwan's (the Republic of China's) alliance with the United States and general defence strategy has a few key factors:

Taiwan is counting on maintaining a key role in the United States' high-tech economy. One where, if the island of Taiwan were to fall under the control of the mainland, American economic interests would be severely damaged. The existence of semiconductor factories in America doesn't affect this calculus too much as long as a critical mass of manufacturing stays in Taiwan. In fact, tying Taiwan's economy to the United States is beneficial because it means the pain of separating it will be greater, and hopefully the fear of such pain will make the Americans want to protect them.
Taiwan believes that its location is of strategic importance to the United States' South Asian military interests. If the island falls under mainland control, it would mean that the US military can no longer access the large amount of airspace surrounding the island and would lose access to the island's naval facilities.
Taiwan thinks that it can make a war with the mainland so costly for the latter that it would not make economic sense to invade. This is unrelated to the US; ideology takes a backseat to making money almost anywhere in the world and the Taiwanese know this.
Taiwan thinks it can rely on popular and government support in America to defend it in the event of an invasion. Public support for Taiwan's continued autonomous existence is quite high in the US and even Joe Biden's sometimes erratic comments about the topic are enough to make leaders in Beijing think twice before invading. The Americans are unpredictable and they don't want to leave it up to a roll of the dice.

Tankiedesantski

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Taiwan is counting on maintaining a key role in the United States' high-tech economy. One where, if the island of Taiwan were to fall under the control of the mainland, American economic interests would be severely damaged. The existence of semiconductor factories in America doesn't affect this calculus too much as long as a critical mass of manufacturing stays in Taiwan. In fact, tying Taiwan's economy to the United States is beneficial because it means the pain of separating it will be greater, and hopefully the fear of such pain will make the Americans want to protect them.

Exactly my point. The interest of Taiwan Province is to have the critical mass of such manufacturing stay in the RoC, whereas the interest of the US is to have the critical mass of such manufacturing move to the US. Given these divergent strategic interests, it is the best interest of the RoC to sell chips to the US instead of allowing the US to make its own chips. The US doesn't have a supply alternative to TSMC yet, so exporting RoC tech and factories to the US is weakening the RoC position and creating their own competitor (assuming the US doesn't fuck up its own factories).

NateNate60

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I would like to remind you that there does not exist any political entity called "Taiwan Province". The Republic of China abolished its provincial governments and the People's Republic of China doesn't even bother to maintain a shadow government.

Tankiedesantski

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I refer you to ISO 3166-2:TW where the territory in question is designated "Taiwan, Province of China" or "Taiwan (Province of China)". I do take the liberty of shortening out the "of China" but I am happy to refer to the territory by its full name if you will agree to do the same.

If you have any issues with the designation, I encourage you to take it up with the International Standards Organization.

NateNate60

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I will cut to the chase here and say that the only reason for calling it "Taiwan Province" is if you are (1) a Chinese nationalist, (2) a Chinese propagandist, or (3) a person who got absorbed by (2). Nobody else in ordinary English discourse will refer to it as such. The typical usage is to call the Republic of China "Taiwan". Its government calls itself the "Republic of China (Taiwan)". Normal people call it "Taiwan". Taiwanese people call it "Taiwan". Don't forget; the "free area" of the Republic of China has two nominal provinces—Taiwan and Fuchien.

ISO standards are dry and mechanical, and most importantly, not designed to supplant everyday usage by humans. That is unless you also tend to write the date as 2023-10-03 and not the far more common "3 October 2023" or "October 3, 2023". The ISO standard refers to Taiwan Province, which is a province of the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China, however, neither province has a government and neither makes decisions on its own.

The common name for the area controlled by the Republic of China is "Taiwan". "Taiwan Province" is a Chinese nationalist dog whistle and there is nothing you can say to get around this fact.

Tankiedesantski

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I will cut to the chase here and say that the only reason for not calling it "Taiwan Province" is if you are (1) an American Imperialist, (2) a Japanese Imperialist, or (3) a running dog of one or both types of imperialist.

It doesn't matter to me what "normal people" call Taiwan Province because the vast majority of what you consider normal people are completely ignorant of the topic, the history, and the legal political situation.

You don't get a say in what terminology I choose to use. Your insistence on prescribing what exact terminology I can and cannot use dances on the border of pointless liberal semantic nitpicking and petty fascist power play.

No amount of semantic maneuvering on your part will change the fact that Taiwan, Province of China is recognized by international law and the vast majority of the countries of the world as being a part of China. No amount of quibbling over words or pidgeom holing me into your imaginary categories will change the fact that the vast majority of countries and international law recognizes the People's Republic of China as the sole legitimate governmemt of China.

AssortedBiscuits

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Taiwan thinks that it can make a war with the mainland so costly for the latter that it would not make economic sense to invade. This is unrelated to the US; ideology takes a backseat to making money almost anywhere in the world and the Taiwanese know this.

My dude, the entire ROC military is completely controlled by the KMT. Yeah, a military that's institutionally controlled by the status quo party is going to fight to the last man while Tsai Ing-wen and William Lai take the first flight to Japan. The government might have transitioned away from a KMT military dictatorship during the 90s, but the actual military hasn't moved away from its KMT military dictatorship roots, especially the top brass. Taiwanese separatists have a reputation for dodging conscription, so in the end, you have a top brass that's still nostalgic about the Chiang Ching-kuo days and a bunch of enlisted and conscripted soldiers who don't care a whole lot about Taiwanese separatism. There's a reason why the DPP has continuously and successfully run on "the KMT will sell out Taiwan to the CPC" in order to win seats, most recently in the 2020 Taiwanese presidential election.

There's a decent chance there won't be an invasion anyways because the KMT cut a backroom deal with the CPC.

zephyreks

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Except... It's really not? Taiwan's chip factories are simply leverage to drag the West into any potential conflict between the PRC and ROC. Taiwan's defence strategy involves being an island in the ocean built up of mountains, jungle, and cities (all terrain where the defender is extremely favoured), mandatory military service for citizens, and being so economically/culturally tied to the mainland that it's infeasible to break off relations. Taiwan is basically seeking reunification without explicitly seeking reunification: their core defensive strategy relies on being as close to China as possible while being too painful to actually invade.

Of course, this kind of policy didn't help Cuba, but...

IzyaKatzmann

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I don't understand the comparison to Cuba, do you mind explaining?

zephyreks

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Cuba ended up getting blockaded because they were too hard to invade lol

Sorry, "quarantined"

Because a blockade would be a declaration of war