Hey! I was really into Greek mythology in middle school. And high school. Even got a minor in college. I even have a set of Greek/Roman mythology tattoos!
Oh wait... I am gay. Fuck.
You're in good company buddy. Don't have the tattoo but I did have one planned. How can they blame us when half the mythological Greeks are just half (at least) naked hunks?
Why, oh why, did the Simpsons not have Flanders own some parcel of meadowland, and have an episode about the events In Flanders Fields?
TIL I'm gay? I actually carried around a copy of D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths in my backpack, and I have basically zero attraction to other men. Then again, I was over it by high school, so maybe that's why I'm not gay.
I love that book. I still have a copy. That said, it is an incredibly sanitized version of what the Greeks actually believed because every bit of the sex is cut out and it's basically 90% sex.
Roman history is amazing. Everybody hears of Julius Caesar and maybe Trajan and Hadrian but then pretend that nothing happened after that. Like poof, it was dead, inevitable, Franks and Caliphates are now a thing.
Then when you realise how much Rome had to screw itself over to even get to that point while being struck by famines, massive migratory invasions, the huns while still being in a moderately good shape... That's the good stuff. The story of the fall is a marble being chipped away slowly while telling a beautiful story until there is nothing left of the Western Roman Empire. If Rome had a favorite hobby it would be waging war on itself.
Eastern Roman Empire was alive and kicking until the 1450's and if you think there's not much there then look up Justinian's restoration. They even had horseback archers like the mongols and huns for a while that had to train for many years. Hell, even look at a map that goes back some years pre-caliphate period.
Even as recently as 1912 there were people in the Aegean islands that identified as Roman. I wish there would be a series that would cover the history of Rome properly and not just "CaEsAr KiLlEd gAuLs aNd sExEd cLeOpAtRa" for the billionth time.
It's really a shame that even figures such as the Gracchi brothers (or really any of the pre-Caesar Populares figures) are hardly ever brought up as well, although I guess I can't be too surprised that radical social reformers are being left out.
I've always thought the mid-late Roman Republic was more interesting than the imperial era, and the Gracchi are easily the most fascinating chapter. Noble aristocrats becoming populist ideologues, the increasingly bitter struggle over creaky governmental norms (like their weaponization of the tribunal veto to shut down the city), the introduction of political violence. Very instructive for our current era, imho.
I recently got through "The storm before the storm" by Mike Duncan. Very entertaining, if nothing else, seeing every "that doesn't sound good" pay off.
I want an HBO miniseries on Scipio Africanus vs Hannibal.
Then I want another HBO mini-series on the Flavian dynasty. The eruption of Vesuvius, the first (?) Jewish rebellion, and the questionable conquest of Brittania all happened under Titus. I would love to see a dramatic reenactment of the Romans absolutely losing their minds at how fucking cursed their empire suddenly was.
off topic.
Look up the old BBC series 'I, Claudius.' Based on the Robert Graves novels, Featuring Brian Blessed as Augustus and Patrick Stewart as Sirjanus
I, Claudius is absolutely terrific and I've seen it more than once, but it is incredibly historically inaccurate.
If it's "Game of Thrones"-like intrigue the people want, a miniseries about the Severan dynasty would kick ass. Let's see what we get in just three generations or so:
-Year of the five emperors, with Septimius Severus coming out the victor and establishing the dynasty after a five-way civil war.
-Two brothers, co-emperors, who can't stand the sight of each other with their mother mediating between them, with one eventually killing the other WITH THEIR MOTHER IN THE ROOM.
-Caracalla then gets killed while on campaign by the brother of a soldier he had executed.
-A grandmother putting a specific grandson on the throne, then changing her mind, having him and her own daughter KILLED and replaced with another grandson & his mother.
-The first grandson being, quite probably, the first trans emperor/ruler in ancient history, with immensely, uh, interesting consequences.
-The "Good" grandson becoming a successful and celebrated emperor, only to be killed by his own troops after trying to buy off peace with the Germanic tribes, thereby kicking off the crisis of the 3rd century which would need several miniseries in and of itself to really tell all its tales...
This is so true, the Severan dynasty is so much more intriguing politically than the Julio-Claudians.
Personally though, I’m sick of historical/fantasy political thrillers. I just want a sort of black comedy set around the Year of the Four Emperors and the Flavians. It’s actually absurd just HOW MUCH goes wrong for Rome, with a lot of it just due to natural phenomena or things out of their control.
British history podcast is very nice for the history of Brittania. It covers the whole period and is very accurate.
Like poof, it was dead
I wish, so much of history (and especially people talking about history) is just recounting Greco-Roman history or trying to embody it. Even American nationalism feels like Roman nationalism v4.3.
I'm rather sick of everyone and everything trying to connect themselves to something roman or greek, then stopping dead. Everyone and their dog has a latin motto, multiple fields are all but written in latin, and that pantheon is the first and often only stop for mythology names; you'd think Caligula was still out there banging his worries away.
Anyway, y'all should look up my boy Gilgamesh.
I wish there would be a series that would cover the history of Rome properly
you mean like Mike Duncan's The History of Rome?
Well, maybe you can continue with this then:
https://youtube.com/@TheHistoryofByzantiumPodcast?feature=shared
Robin takes over just when Mike stops. It's a great podcast and it's now reached the point right around 1204AD (spoilers)...
Hope you enjoy!
Even during "the Decline and Fall" there was plenty going on that was just people living their lives -- it's not like every place was being pillaged and everyone was being slaughtered all at once. And there were plenty of centuries before then full of fascinating history with lessons for today, and that's just the stuff that we know about.
I loved all the Viking / Norse shit when I was younger. Comics, games, etc, I couldn't get enough.
But then I started talking to people who followed that aesthetic and was disappointed by exactly 100% of them.
Still love the games. Lost Vikings, Rune, GoW, etc
I like this band named Heilung, which has some Viking-ish costumes and lore etc. (although more like Conan's Hyperborea). They have to put a disclaimer at the start of their videos which is basically a politer version of "Nazi punks fuck off".
disclaimer at the start of their videos which is basically a politer version of “Nazi punks fuck off”.
The whole scene has been doing that since what 70 years or so now. After the war some groups of people started seriously wondering about what civilisation is, how it's very much not rooted in whether or not you wear a suit or not, and started looking for roots. The old Germanic roots were at that time actually out of the question: The Nazis had appropriated and bent them to their brand of insanity, but Karl May existed and with the US there were actual Indians in Germany in the form of GIs. Cultural exchange happened, pretty much unnoticed by the general population, and with that came knowledge: Tradition is not the praying to the ashes, but the passing of the fire, that exchange helped people find genuine embers, small as they were. Once people started to flame the symbols of those embers Nazis came along and wanted to be part of it and promptly were told to fuck off -- not just out of a general antifascist stance but also because Nazis, in particular, were the ones who poisoned the little that was left after Christianisation. Then time moved on and a lot happened. Baudrillard, for one. Bear with me:
You might've noticed that Heilung doesn't have Germanic symbology front and left and centre -- it's not about the, or any, symbology. They're not Asatru or something, their costumes and historical references go back further than the Norse (pretty much as far as they can). About the closest you get is song titles written in runic alphabet and some consistent choices in graphic design looking quite like Nordic carvings -- but none of that is religious stuff as-such.
From what I can tell Nazis don't actually try to get a piece of that particular pie: It's not to their liking. They like their symbols, their flags to rally around, their fetishes, to distract themselves from realising what they're actually doing. The "Nazi punks fuck off" part is there for people stumbling across it, vibing with it, and wondering whether it's kosher. Yes, yes it very much is. They're plain and simply modern shamans who happen to be history nerds, and western esotericism has been post-structural for long enough now that the lack of symbolic system shouldn't really surprise, c.f. e.g. Chaos Magick. They write and perform rituals to speak to parts of the psyche that what we call civilisation may have forgotten, but certainly not the genome. That, you know, one great being that was always there.
Or Norwegian were this is legitimate part of our culture and thought in primary school.
I am ex Norwegian Army, and we still use Norse imagery on unit insignias. And half sport tons of Norse ink.
"I'm really into WW2 artifact collecting!"
Only collects things associated with Wehrmacht / SS
Yeaaaah, buddy, collector you are!
What's crazy is I have a Jewish coworker just like this.. and I'm not sure what to make of it. But he voted for trump, so now I'm like... "Ehhhh. I don't think I like this guy".
I used to date a girl that had basically grown up in the antique shop that her father owned. It was amazing - we would watch Antiques Roadshow and she knew what everything was and almost exactly what the experts would say it was worth every time. After her father died she ended up with a ton of stuff in her house, and one day I went over there to find she had put up an "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer!" poster from the 1930s featuring good ol' Adolf above the fireplace. She wasn't pro-Hitler or anything, just thought it was an interesting bit of history. I was like "babe, c'mon, we want to keep our friends".
The opposite is kind of weird too. My late Jewish father was absolutely obsessed with the Holocaust. He had virtually every book ever written on the subject. There was a room in the house my mother and I called (much to his chagrin) 'The Holocaust Room' because of the vast number of books on the Holocaust there were inside it.
He did have sort of a reason for his obsession. He was in London from age 7 on through the war because his parents didn't evacuate him and he spend the years 1939-1945 waiting for the Nazis to invade and put him in a concentration camp. So it made sense to me, but it was still going pretty overboard.
He saw Shoah more than once. It's 566 minutes long.
It's the same as gay conservatives.
You don't want to overthink it else your brain explodes.
My last boss was like this.
I loved listening to him when he brought up how his family was in WW2, his stories about his dad was a pilot in WW2 fighting Japan, and all the various battles in Europe.
Then after a few years of trust, he showed me all of the "nazi memorabilia". On one end, I'm a color person, so he must have really trusted me. On the other, wtf. Kinda feigned interest after that and moved jobs after a year.
For real though you should read: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/SengokuKomachiKurouTan
OK hear me out, what if the reason I like WW2 history is because there's a lot of kicking nazi ass
The WW1 trenches are also very rich with inspiration, and the Napoleonic era Sharpe books have influenced quite a few Black Library books if you want more to read
Ah yes, Sharpe also exists as a movie serie with Sean Bean! That slipped my mind so thanks for the reminder :)
I like reading about all the spy shit and codebreaking that went on. WWII is really interesting if you're into the history of computer science and encryption.
As a history student I was really afraid that I would meet a ton of right wingers. But I must say the worst kind of people so far are history students that only study history to become teachers. They keep laughing at me saying that at least they have a future and that I will eventually switch sides and become a teacher too, I just don't know it yet :(
You may have met a ton of right wingers. In hindsight, most of my high school history and civics teachers had a right wing slant to their anecdotes.
Yeah, it wasn't necessarily in civics or history class for me, but I do remember a few transphobic and sometimes racist things that my teachers said or did in elementary and middle school. I remember one time all the 7th graders were gathered together and explicitly told to not use the internet for research because someone found that men could get pregnant. Mind you, they didn't mention transmen at all but presented it in another way. I left feeling so hung up on how one would go about transplanting a uterus into a male and why they made a scandal of something I had never heard of that seemed impossible and impractical. I only had the epiphany of what that was really about a couple years ago. /tangent
I don't remember exactly which one said what, but I heard 1) The best thing that can ever happen to a county is to be invaded by the US because we will rebuilt their economy(only mentioned Japan though), 2) Disney fixed Times Square(yay Capitalism), 3) The real estate market only goes up(this was around 2003), 4) something something black mother with 12 kids wealthfare queen, 5) the only Unions that still do anything are teacher unions(completely unironic), 6) something something illegal immigrants.
In contrast, I had one mention from a science teacher supporting climate change and that was only because they were directly ask by a student.
The real joke's on them for thinking being a teacher in the U.S. is in any way good.
They have a point because I am European. Being a teacher in my area is pretty alright right now. Still, I was aware of what I was getting into and if everything goes downhill I can still work as a journalist or in an archive wich sounds waaay better than teaching history to children who really don't care.
You could add International Relations to your degree. That would probably open up a lot of options.
"I'm really interested in the history of the great flood and how it explains how dinosaur fossils are so many layers down in the geologic column even though dinosaurs lived alongside humans only 6,000 years ago. Plus the the flood formed the Grand Canyon in only a few weeks."
If humans and dinosaurs did not coexist, how could Jesus have won the first Kentucky Derby and tripple crown riding his trusty velociraptor.
I've noticed that, after a relative lull, people are getting bullied for traditional reasons again. However the bullies code those reasons as deplorable, so that they can imply their targets are just assholes.
You can't really expect certain people, like OP, to live in a world where they don't know more than everyone else about everything.
Right?
"If you have an interest in a period of history in which bad people lived, it's probably because you secretly idolize them."
Sure. A coworker of mine is a big true crime podcast fan, he must be planning a murder spree. I love the works of Philip K. Dick so I must want to live in some future despotic government on a steady diet of ersatz and drugs.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you suggesting that telling people to be wary of history buffs (after decades of examples of "history buffs" being code for wild bigot/racist) is actually just bullying people who like history? Because if so that's a gross over exaggeration of what the post is saying. Or are you talking about the Greek mythology thing? Because the tumblr user who posted it is queer and so am I so that conclusion would also be pretty heavily flawed and wrought with heterocentric thinking.
This post is laying the groundwork to say someone is somehow morally compromised for having certain interests. Those interests have been common interests for decades.
Right now, there's 100 percent a mood that people who are morally compromised deserve to be mistreated.b
The end result of posts like these is nerds being bullied in the same way they used to before the whole anti bullying attitude started. Only this is even worse because the victims get told they are POSes who deserve it.
The Roman one specifically applies to basically every male history nerd. Same with WW2.
If you instantly judge someone for having extremely common innocuous interests, you're an asshole.
You do that, but leverage social justice rhetoric to act like you're actually a good person for doing so.
As someone who just really thinks its cool how an ancient civilization was able to become such a superpower with roads and infrastructure and then fall so harshly. 😢
It is. It's impressive to me that the real founders of Christianity were 5 centuries behind their time. St. Paul was 5 centuries after Epicures, Aristotle, and Plato. This is really mind boggling. Imagine if someone from the Columbus voyages time traveled to modern times and within 4 centuries all of Western civilization was in flames mostly due to their actions. Over 99% of the written word of the Greeks and Romans were destroyed by the Church. Is there anything remotely comparable in history?
What about history pf philosophy? Im on episode 326 of the history of philosophy without any gaps podcast and I really enjoying it. We're just finishing Byzantine philosophy and getting ready for the Renaissance.
That someone needs to set aside six hours, some strong alcohol, and a barrel to live in before engaging.
Sounds like you’re ready for a lecture on the Philosophy of Cynicism as practiced by Antisthenes and his student Diogenes. The latter of whom famously lived in a clay pot…
I'm interested in the subjects that I never learned in school, like Asian history or ancient Mesopotamian history. African empires seems interesting too, and I'm very curious about how the Polynesians came to be, seems wild.
I binged this History of Africa podcast last year, and it's pretty good History of Africa Podcast
Scrolling through the comments.
I like OP, this is my kind of person. Knowing stuff because it's just fun and interesting to know stuff, and being willing to engage, share, and correct.
I need more of this on the fediverse.
I must be at least bi in this case. I love how OP has managed to make knowledge shameful as a Rorschach test that they alone know how to understand.
i was into greek mythological as a kid cuz of percy jackson but it just made me extremely horny
No, actually, it wasn't. It is categorically called mythology and not religion for one very simple reason. A religion requires an overarcing system of formal beliefs or dogma that it teaches. Mythology establishes faith through stories and epics. There is no dogma or belief system that's taught hand in hand with these Greek stories. You're expected to gain basic lessons through the folly of others.
Religion and mythology are not the same. Things aren't suddenly called mythology once they're not believed by a lot of people. It is called mythology because that's what it is.
I'm just curious, but the definition sounds like distinguishing between religion and faith not exactly religion and mythology. Animism or shamanism doesn't always have overarching dogma to teach nor actively ask other people to believe in them. Ancient Greek people did some rituals and sacrifice, that practices they did doesn't count as religion?
They're not mutually exclusive but they are individual. You can have both together or completely separate but it is important to recognize the distinction.
I’m just curious, but the definition sounds like distinguishing between religion and faith not exactly religion and mythology.
No, the definition is distinguishing between types of faith, not between religion and faith.
Animism or shamanism doesn’t always have overarching dogma to teach nor actively ask other people to believe in them.
Okay? I'm not sure what the point of this line is.
Ancient Greek people did some rituals and sacrifice, that practices they did doesn’t count as religion?
No. The mistake that people keep making in this thread is conflating mythology and religion. They are two very distinctly different things but that does not mean that they are mutually exclusive. There is Christian mythology that is part of the Christian faith. Note the use of 'faith' and not the use of 'religion'. There is a reason that these terms are frequently used when talking about what are colloquially called 'religions'. Religion is one part of the faith. Mythology is another part of that same faith. It is important to recognize the difference between the two but that doesn't mean that they aren't related.
Things aren't suddenly called mythology once they're not believed by a lot of people.
No...that's pretty much exactly how that happens.
Religion is ritual devotion to a higher being. Full stop. The fact that the Greeks and Romans worships a pantheon instead of a single god makes no difference whatsoever.
I majored in Near Eastern Classical Archaeology and that came with a heavy does of anthropology. What you're saying is meaningless pedantry that ONLY comes from people who are too insecure to admit that their own Monotheistic religion is in fact just a made up mythology like every other faith that's ever come and gone on the planet.
No. You are flagrantly wrong in this case.
The term religion defines a system of formally organized beliefs and practices typically centered around the worship of supernatural forces or beings, whereas mythology is a collection of myths, or stories, belonging to a particular religious or cultural tradition used to explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon.
There is an extremely popular belief that the term “mythology” refers to any religion that is no longer practiced. This belief seems to be especially popular among atheists. I’ve often heard atheists use the expression “Today’s religions are tomorrow’s mythologies.” This belief, however, is wrong. The terms “religion” and “mythology” refer to two completely different things. A religion does not turn into a mythology when it stops being practiced.
Mythology refers to a collection of myths, especially one belonging to a particular religious or cultural tradition. Religion is a specific system of belief and/or worship, often involving a code of ethics and philosophy.
Mythology is defined as a set of stories belonging to one culture or group of people. These stories are supernatural in nature and are often meant to be inspirational, but they do not impose morality. Religion is a set of beliefs and practices combined with the belief in and worship of a god, gods or a superhuman controlling power. Followers generally believe in abiding by guidelines detailed within their religion's holy or sacred text.
Religion and Mythology are two terms that are often confused when it comes to their connotations, even though, there is some difference between the two terms. First let us define the two terms in order to understand the difference, as well as the relation between the two. Religion can be defined as the belief in and worship of a God or gods. Mythology, on the other hand, refers to a collection of traditional stories from early history or explaining a natural event especially involving supernatural beings.
I'm more inclined to believe trusted experts than I am a commenter like yourself.
Dude you literally just said it yourself;
"formally organized beliefs and practices typically centered around the worship of supernatural forces or beings"
What do you think is taking place when they are sacrificing a bull or a lamb to Zeus, or visiting the temple of Dionysus. Romans (since we're using them as an example) had very structured forms of worship around their gods. So how exactly is that NOT a religion in your brain?
Because we are talking about mythology not religion. I have never stated that mythology cannot be a part of religion or that they are mutually exclusive. I am merely stating that they are different. Anything else is something you're adding onto it yourself.
I don't get what's so difficult to understand about it. They're not mutually exclusive but you keep compounding them into the same thing. Religion can have mythology and I've never said that it can't. I've merely said that they're different which is true. You're arguing that the liver and the immune system is the same thing. I'm merely saying that they work together.
I have provided sources. You can educate yourself on your own time, not mine. I'm not interested in continuing this conversation. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You keep claiming you have an education in this yet every single source contradicts you and proves you wrong. You, on the other hand, haven't provided a single source beyond "I have a diploma". I don't trust your education. I trust sources and experts. Considering you have failed to provide a single shred of evidence to back up your claims, I'm going to stick to stuff that has been proven over your random claims based off of your own insane misunderstanding of what is even being talked about in the first place, claims that you have not once backed up at any point in this thread.
Good luck with whatever that behavior is. If you even do have a diploma I feel so incredibly bad for your professors that you didn't learn rule number 1: Provide sources and don't believe blindly.
A degree in classical archaeology is more than enough education versus someone who read a couple of articles online. But keep on believing what you want. Enjoy your day.
Because we are talking about mythology not religion.
We are talking about made-up bullshit not made-up bullshit
Religion doesn't require devotion to a higher being, or even ritual. What about, say, Zen?
The whole distinction between philosophy, religion and, heck, even psychology is a very very Abrahamic/western-centric view.
Yeah, there's certainly a bit of both, right? Modern religion have their own brand of myths and tie that up with their values.
I will admit I know nothing about this. I don't even know where to find these types of explanations from a secular POV.
Good term for it since, besides for a few incidental stuff in Acts and the Letters of Paul, none of the stories happened. At least Spiderman is set in NYC a city that actually exists in the time period the story is set in.
Religion and mythology are the same. I don't trust people who, like yourself, claim to be buffs.
And yet it was part of their religion. The fact that other aspects did not survive to the present day does not change that.
Dude. No. Again, you are conflating religion with mythology.
They are seperate things. Religion can exist without mythology and mythology can exist without religion. Some forms of Greek religion, such as ancient Greek paganism, did include mythology as part of their religion but it was not universal.
This "Part of their religion" thing makes even less sense than saying mythology and religion are the same. Not all Greeks shared the same beliefs. There is a reason why we keep saying Greek mythology when we're talking about Greek mythology. It's because we're talking about the mythology. Religion has no relevance here. Please stop confusing the two and throwing them in the same basket.
Not all Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists share the same beliefs. However I guess in your mind those are real religions and those long dead, unable to defend themselves, Romans didn't have a real religion. A guy like you burned down the pagan temples of Rome.
Id argue that they are the same conceptually, and digging any deeper is splitting hairs. Both are made up stories to make ourselves feel better about death, as well as tips and tricks on how to live.
Which is an aggressively bad argument that is a gross generalization of what's going on, conflating two completely different fields, and then ignoring the conversation as a whole being about MYTHOLOGY and not religion.
They're the not same thing. It isn't splitting hairs. They are related but they are very distinctly different. What you're essentially saying is that Texans are Americans and its splitting hairs to point out the differences. It really isn't splitting hairs when the differences are beyond vast. So vast that they literally have classes on the differences between mythology and religion...
... but texans are americans?
look, mythology and religion may not refer to precisely the same thing, but there was a relationship between greek mythology and religious practice. understanding one is helpful in understanding the other.
Yes. And mythology can be part of religion. My point is that they are distinctly different from one another. This does not mean mutually exclusive from one another. You can have mythology within a religion but the entire post and conversation has been about mythology, not religion. You came into this conversation and immediately conflated them both by saying that "people think they're talking about mythology when they're talking about religion." That is categorically false. Most people are not talking about the religious aspects of the beliefs of Ancient Greeks. People don't focus on the sacrifices that were made to Zeus. They focus on the tales and fables like that of Narcissus or Heracles or Arachne. None of which are religion. They are myths that are then folded into the religion itself. You are the one who isn't recognizing the difference between what is a myth and what is religion.
I'm disengaging from the rest of this thread. Sources have been provided. Feel free to read them for clarification.
They are not different at all. Don't argue with me since if you are on expert on it I shouldn't talk to you
...i think you have me confused with others.
anyway, i'm not convinced trying to delineate between the two is so neat or always necessary. but it seems no further conversation is to be had here.
It was the same. They took their stories as seriously as anyone else did. I get it in a way, I was raised a theist. It is cringe to think about it but 14 year old me would have said something like "well of course the Hindus know that they are wrong and should follow Jesus, they are just pretending to have a religion". Proud to say I am not the person anymore.
I don't believe in God or anything supernatural. I never ever doubt the sincerity of a person's belief in those things. The Romans believed in their gods with the same level of passion that any other religious person in history has or will ever. Go ahead and mock a religion but don't call a person a liar who isn't.
