https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/07/nofap-masturbation-reddit-forum-suicide.html
People in this community are hoping to fix their lives. But if they slip up, things can get worse.
I got a lot of downvotes on Reddit for pointing out that there's no scientific evidence supporting porn addiction. It's just the latest version of religious indoctrination. ISIS was using that as part of their recruitment process: men who are sexually repressed are easier for them to manipulate.
The scientific paper linked from the article, stating there's no evidence for porn addiction, in case anyone would like to read more and missed it.
As with most things, there are a lot of problems with the porn INDUSTRY that we as a society ignore, and instead tell individual people that all the ills are their own fault.
seriously. I see so many people argue that OF is some sort of eco-friendly organic wholesome family-friendly form of pornography.
It's so bizarre to watch the marketing nonsense people tell themselves to make themselves feel like they are ethical consumers.
I guess it makes sense that the psychology community would push back against the claim that pornography fits a scientific definition of addiction. The same deal goes for sugar: many people talk about sugar being addictive, but it's pretty absurd to classify sugar as addictive substance, and the article raises this point very explicitly:
That isn’t to say that people can’t use pornography compulsively, as you may compulsively eat donuts or bacon every day against the best interests of your heart
And that's what most people usually mean when they're addicted to it. So I wouldn't say that it's indoctrination or "hive mind", it's just how people use the word "addiction" in day-to-day, non-scientifically-precise ways. You're absolutely right to point that out because people should not seek addiction treatment for porn consumption, but it's also understandable to seek treatment for compulsive consumption of whatever. Just like sugar and junk food, while the science doesn't say it's addiction, it also presents endless evidence on the negative effects of common patterns of consumption.
Idk just because it's "natural" to compulsively consume such both sugar and porn to classify them as non-addiction is a bit wishy washy and kinda stinks to me.
Humans literally have evolved to consume as much sugar as possible and same goes for porn because the human sexual response can't differentiate between real or fake sexual stimulus. Humans see naked bodies, humans get aroused. No matter wether digital imagery or not.
because it’s “natural” to compulsively consume such both sugar and porn to classify them as non-addiction is a bit wishy
Well, that's not the argument I'd make, nor does it seem to be the one presented by the sources for the article. I agree that this would be very wishy washy!
Yeah, lay usage of addiction is like lay usage of theory. Very different meanings than the clinical or scientific usage of the terms.
Same, I got in arguments about it. Quoting Wikipedia did not convince them.
Ask any psychiatrist and they will confirm porn is okay.
Imagine the mannosphere and incels being nofap. Imagine all that repressed energy, all this contradiction with their normal nature, just because of beliefs.
That's a good way to brew crazy people.
You mean like it doesn’t exist? Asking that as a genuine question since Terry Crews has talked about his addiction to porn and how it almost ruined his marriage, and it doesn’t seem like a crazy stretch to believe that you can be addicted to porn (or, maybe more accurately, addicted to getting off).
That being said, the NoFap community is pretty fuckin weird and unhealthy as a whole. The stuff like semen retention is unscientifically proven, and treating any orgasm (including from sex) as being bad is just plain dumb. There’s tangible health benefits to jacking off, and I would wager that it’s better to lay off the porn because of how much it can fuckin warp people’s minds about partners and sex (and to help curb an excessive whacking off habit - I mean like “this is interfering with my life” levels).
Nicole Prause, a neuroscientist who researches human sexual behavior at the University of California and the co-author of a recent study on NoFap, believes that there’s no objective basis for pornography addiction, an opinion supported by numerous peer-reviewed studies and experts in the field.
. “If the public uses terms like ‘I’m addicted to chocolate,’ that’s fine. I’m not gonna police language like that,” Prause explained. “But when you use it to refer to a disorder, it has a very specific meaning that pornography just does not fill.”
"Addiction" is a specific word with legal and medical meanings. "Porn addiction" is not recognized as an addiction.
Some porn, along with a myriad of other factors, can contribute negatively to an individual's sexual health. Not all porn is crazy and unrealistic. Not all porn is unhealthy.
Some of the other quotes in the article address how most people who diagnose themselves with "porn addiction" actually have another underlying disorder, often depression or bipolar.
I don't know Crews personally, but I can guarantee a licensed professional did NOT diagnose him with porn addiction. Because that's just not a legitimate diagnosis. The world, and particularly America, has enough issues with mental healthcare. Making up fake disorders to self-diagnose hurts the medical community that's actually trying to help people with real disorders.
Addiction has a very specific clinical meaning as is stated in the article. Porn usage doesn't fit that meaning. That isn't to say that someone cannot compulsively masturbate or watch porn. But, again as stated in the article and a lot of other literature, it doesn't have the same physiological or psychological effects as an addiction. And most of the people doing something compulsively like that are doing it as a symptom of an underlying problem (likely depression in many cases), not as the cause of the problem itself.
In other words, crack and Xanax create a problem. Porn can be used in response to certain psychological problems.
I like Terry Crews. Wholesome guy. But he isn't a doctor or scientist.
"Porn addiction" is actually more like "porn compulsion." Colloquially, compulsions are often called addictions ("video game addiction" is also a compulsion, an addiction would be something like crack) but it's worrying with porn because it's treated as an actual addiction, and the theories behind the modern worries about "porn addiction" are pseudoscience by unqualified people (Gary Wilson and Marnia Robinson) with a very strict idea of what a sexual relationship should look like.
a very strict idea of what a sexual relationship should look like.
which is why this social phenomenon dovetails so well with extremist religious sentiment
IIRC, isn't there a distinction between chemical and physical addictions? Like a chemical addiction is drugs, booze, tobacco, caffeine, sugar, etc., a physical addiction could be basically anything that isn't making you chemically dependant, but becomes compulsory enough to interfere with your life/mental health (gambling, video games, porn, shopping, etc.). Or do I have that wrong? I honestly can't remember how I came by that information.
exactly. lurking underneath all thi s'porn is bad for people' nonsense is the same anti-sex beliefs that the only 'correct' form of sexual behaviour is heteronormative monogamy for procreation.
god forbid people want to feel sexual pleasure and holy mary jesus christ forbid that they EVER enjoy watching someone else's sexual performance.
People can be “addicted” to everything and anything. It just requires the “right” mindset to turn that thing into more than a habit. Saying people has innate tendency to be addicted to something is totally different, however. The latter also happens to be what matters in the medical field for obvious reasons.
The basic mechanism of psychological addiction is there: a behaviour that creates an immediate reward.
I mean a porn addiction is absolutely a thing, but it's not an issue inherent to porn, humans can form a mental addiction to anything and porn can be an easy target. It's just not porn itself that causes the addiction, since it's not physically causing a chemical dependence, and porn addictions obviously aren't anywhere near as prevalent as addictions to physically addictive substances. Porn addictions are certainly much much rarer than religious institutions act like they are, but they do exist, they're just psychological in nature rather than physiological. And to reiterate, porn itself doesn't cause addiction, or addictive behaviour if you want to be pedantic about it, but some people can form an emotional dependence on it just like they can form an emotional dependence on anything. If not porn then something else. But pretending they don't exist at all is just ridiculous. The term addiction isn't only used in one specific medical or physical sense and never has been, even in the medical community.
I think it's a lot like weed or video game addiction.
Is it going to send you to the hospital? Probably not. But if you let it take over your life to the extent that it's detrimental, then using strategies that help people kick physical addictions can be effective.
These religious groups seem to hate a lot of things that appeal to basic pleasures, want to make you feel bad for wanting to feel good.
I'm anti-religion and been addicted to porn. Your views are pretty extreme as well. Not everything is a religious conspiracy.
I feel addicted to porn and games as well. I feel weird when I'm not getting either one of these for a long time and I don't see any way to get out of this. But I guess games addiction is still not that damaging to my mental health unlike porn where I start to fantasize intensely even if I get slightly distracted with such feelings. Then I try to make an elaborate scene in my mind with all sorts to kinks or fetishes that I like until I get enough dopamine out of it.
Is fantasizing a bad thing? Imo its fine as long as it doesn't impede normal functioning, whatever that means to you.
I feel lost at such times and couldn't focus on what someone else is saying like in lectures
Big "As a gay black man..." energy over here lol
Porn addiction does not exist. No one qualified to diagnose addiction would diagnose you with that because it doesn't exist. You're delusional and self-diagnosing if you really think that.
One University study suggests that primates have been masturbating for around 40 million years. I think it’s safe to say we’re probably ok beating our meat a little now and then (though obviously excessive masturbation can be an issue). Interestingly, prevalence of masturbation seems to go up with primates in captivity, which to me suggests it’s either a stress response (relieving tension), a reaction to the more limited activities available (boredom), and/or a reaction to the safer environment (more free time not worrying about getting killed).
But isn't the point of nofap that porn conditions our thoughts to imaginary situations that might be unlikely in real life? Like impossible body standards or performance standards or just unnatural interactions.
Even if that was their point it's not true. But nofap is no masturbation period. Not just against watching porn.
I know that anecdotes are bad quality evidence, but there’s a hell of a lot of anecdotal data that sex tastes have changed over the last 60 years. Are there alternative theories about what caused it?
Well for one, it’s mostly private, so there isn’t as much group think about it. I don’t know if it’s changed historically as much as it recently has, but that’s an interesting area to research
How do you think they 've changed? It could very easily be society being more open to discussing sexual tastes compared to 60 years ago.
Frankly? Way too much oversharing with friends of all ages. That’s why it’s anecdotal, but it’s even changed in my time having sex. It’s just not something that I’ve seen studied by someone other than Christian mom groups.
Edit: I can’t reply in a comment, so here’s my answer to azuth
Well that’s a way of dismissing it, yes. However, I as the person involved in the conversation can tell you that is not the case. I’ve heard some incredibly over detailed and overshared information from older people. I’ve also fucked them, and they’re not as kinky ime, but that’s like four people instead of thirty. Foot fetishes don’t seem to be meaningfully more common among youth, but likelihood to have had anal sex, likelihood to have tried fisting, choking, or non-spanking painplay are much higher.
I used to go to munches before the pandemic, and there’s obviously a lot of old people in BDSM, but it’s wild how much more quickly people discover it now. That’s a good thing, but it’s also a little concerning for me at least. My tastes have expanded with time, as most peoples do, but what’s going to be left at 70, if I’m getting ownership tattoos at 35? It’s cool to say, “whatever it is, I’ll enjoy it,” but there’s a physical cost to a lot of sex acts, especially extreme ones. Things like breast flogging are considered probably safe, but we don’t actually know if there’s lasting damage.
Then there’s the people who don’t go to munches or participate in the BDSM scene, but still engage in a “lighter” form of it with partners. I and about half of my similarly aged friends have been at some point surprise choked by a partner, which as a description feels euphemistic, because it’s so much more dangerous than anything else. Doing it by surprise is something that I react to like it’s attempted murder, because someone’s putting their hands around my neck without a safe word or any built up trust, or even warning. My peer friends who aren’t in BDSM are all caught way off guard by that and tend to think I’m overreacting. Older vanilla friends see it mostly the same as I do, whereas kinky friends are universally bothered by it.
So it's not actually the sexual 'tastes' that have changed but society's willingness to speak about them?
I’m not sure there is one, but it’s a sign that porn would be impacting us as a population.
Or it could be millions of other things. The biggest being less societal pressure on individual preferences and women gaining much more agency in society.
Maybe 🤷 I suspect porn’s role is non zero, but it’s not exactly easy to study without a population that doesn’t really use porn while allowing for individuality and personal rights.
Because things like choking someone almost to death, or getting choked are concerning expressions of a damaged psyche. Also unrealistic expectations can cause more frustration on both ends, were people feel unable to meet these expectations and people fail to realize their expectations to be unrealistic.
So in all we could see a development of people having less sex, having less enjoyable sex and using sex to cope with serious mental issues instead of getting help, while society is ignoring problematic soxietal developments by shoving them into sexuality and declaring it as just being liberated kinkyness.
None of these are absolutes and there is many positive changes happening too, but we need to understand sex tastes and sex behaviour to be a reflection of individuals and society, where problems will also show that we need to adress
I see you are a friend of bold claims with nothing to back them up. But I would encourage you to read Marquis de Sade if you think we are getting too Kinky. What I see is humans being less afraid to try out and live out their sexual fantasies and therefore having a more full filling sex life.
You misunderstood me then. Nowhere did i say it is bad or good. I said it needs to be understood as a mirror of people and their society and the underlying issues need to understood.
But yes there is limits to kinkyness. Some years back a guy got convicted because he strangled a woman to death during initially consensual SM sex. He claimed it easnt intentional. He tried to argue in court that sex and death belong together and they found more than 1000 porn videos in his computers with women being killed during sex. If we get to that, then it went too far.
Depends how deep down the rabbit hole you go. Some of them have sunk back down to the old Kellogg belief that any orgasm is harmful to ones health.
I read about someone who was proud to not have ejaculated for years. At that point I'm wondering if your brain doesn't just simply shut off sexual interest
There's another post about an article that looks at this specifically. See here: https://sh.itjust.works/post/2077733
This is a typical internet story where a moderate space about reducing porn consumption and then it gets taken over by extremists. NoFap is typical sex negative talk packages for men and young boys for the internet age. It focus on something simple like reducing porn use until it becomes a full sex negative no masturbation's and no sex philosophy.
The shame around masturbation is immense even if you don't get it from church. This is an attack male sexuality and reduces it into a simple phallic centric ejaculation focused instead of a whole body pleasure focused. This also ties really well into a female centric sex negative attack on porn in general which doubles up on the shame on men. The two together help support and create this false "cheating" definition and jealousy of toxic monogamist relationships. The idea that since we are monogamist neither of us has any other attraction is an insane and is impossible for both men and women. This ties into the PIV procreation focused sex that is the only "correct" sex which leads the both people unsatisfied with women's pleasure completely ignored and men's pleasure reduced to a single second and the "thrill of conquest". These dovetail create to shame men for taking care of their own needs with porn and masturbation to focus on guilting and coercing their spouse into giving them low pleasure sex.
Moreover, this is super kink negative with the idea that kinky sex and porn being an escalation and not an innate part of humans sexualities. While men may not be kinkier than women they for sure get their kinks earlier. These kinks are almost explored in a visual medium since most require one or more willing partner and technical skills. These kinks should be explored this way as it starts until all partners find out what they want, learn the technical and emotional skill without causing lasting emotional or physical damage to both partners.
While there are some problems in mainstream porn since its used a replacement for real sex education and is built for some misogynistic viewers. However, there is more ethically created porn out there. Ironically NoFap usually attack the most ethical created porn in OnlyFans which gives the power directly to the female creator instead of the generally male lead mainstream porn industry. Porn is always going to exist and if people actually cared about human trafficking and ethical treatment of women they would support those who create it well.
super kink negative
i just wanted to grab that gem of a phrase for any aspiring blocked-songwriters/band-name-needers
Their first hit single: "Please, Baby, Come back!" left many new fans wondering: Do we need to order ribs ?
it’s unlikely that PornHub is going to change you from a liker of vanilla sex to a connoisseur of amputee gangbangs—and certainly not in real life.
Challenge accepted!
There is. And I've found a lot of couples that are great. But it's hard to find that amid the millions of "found stepsister asleep" quasi-rape fantasies. And of the ones that do seem loving, it often seems to trend towards the common tropes when they try to make a living at it. So I mostly avoid filmed porn.
I agree, I thank to all real exhibitionist sharing their normal intime moments with us. Professional porn, even more one pretending to be "amateur" is just awful.
In case anyone is interested Dipsea is recommended for exotic stories which many people enjoy more than visual media. Erika Lust is recommended for ethically created visual porn. Both have a large variety of content depending on what you like. Also free trials
I’m bdsm communities you’ll find the children of pastors to people raised in sex positive households, people who always knew that was exactly their thing to people who tried a lot of things they enjoyed before deciding that that was what they wanted too (or exclusively).
Maybe experimentation allowed you to try a bunch of things and wound up into something atypical. You probably would’ve liked it whether or not you indulged more common sexual fantasies with any regularity first. But the people who repress any desire are less likely to knowingly be into less typical fantasies. But they’re also anecdotally far more likely to violently lash out when introduced to that which they were always going to like
Also biases, but that’s a whole other thing.
(Hope it’s ok that I’m commenting here as a woman, I’m very glad to see a bunch of men refuting these harmful myths)
in my opinion those wo "celebrate" no-nut-november our whatever this idiotic "event" is called are harming themselves...
Masturbation is a healthy thing, good to relieve stress, good for your health, for you hearth, your prostate...forcing yourself to not relief yourself from time to time by following an internet "movement", is just plain stupid and without any useful result.
So stop doing stuff that you see on degenerated internet platforms like twitter, facebook, instagram or whatever they are called today...
And if you think I'm full of shit, good! Start thinking for yourself or ask people who know what they are talking about, like a freaking doctor...
I'm struggling to understand stand the extreme takes on this thread. Is it not possible to acknowledge that NoFap can increase suicidality in many inspite the of how the community around it has been a source of mental health improvement for some? That it's possible for NoFap to not increase suicidality in some people inspite of it's impact on its participants as a whole?
I feel that we are dismissing the experiences of some people in this thread when we tell them that their experiences aren't real because the article says so.
I am also concerned about the tenor of some of the discussion here. Future posting about porn compulsions and related communities will be done with more care.
I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread. I had no idea this would be such a contentious issue. Future posting about porn compulsions and related communities will be done with more care.
So you want people to stay addicted to porn? You don't have to write a pseudoscientific long ass article for that
If you want to throw the word pseudoscience around, can you post any scientific evidence that beatin the meat causes porn addiction? I've been doing it my whole life and hasn't caused me any issues, just ask ur mom after I banged her last night.
Yeah beating the meat doesn't cause any addiction. Just like drinking alcohol doesn't cause addiction? Or injecting drugs into your body? Do you even know the definition of addiction.
If you are a man, just masturbate 3 times a day, and then don't masturbate at all for a while. You will see the difference. You don't need some expert validation for simple shit like that
Bro do you really think masturbating is the same as alcohol or drugs addiction lol. If you genuinely believe that, then idk what to tell you, you're just wrong. Please try to look for a single scientific paper that supports this absolutely wild view. I will pay you in a million uplemmys.
It's not the same intensity. But it's on the same page
If you want some scientific evidence here's an excellent collection, https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-about-the-studies. And an animated series of the same, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6gk4lW1hPo
Why don't you get yourself tested using the method I showed you earlier? Your own empirical evidence
It's all brain chemistry. You get addicted to states of mind. Some people are addicted to being mad or sad. Literally anything can be psychologically habit forming.
Cool, so did you find any scientific papers supporting that again? Asking for the third time now. Don't care about speculation, just proven science.
I'm member of the no fap community
Please, stop purposely misunderstanding us and keep perpetrating us this pro-porn propaganda. The NoFap community is a MASTURBATION ADDICTION RECOVERY COMMUNITY, not a place where we tell people that masturbating is inherently bad!
Humans have been masturbating since they're on this planet basically, but it has never been a problem until porn on the internet. With all the things you see on mainstream social media of course 13year olds are going to be masturbation addicted, everywhere they go on the internet is either full of borderline soft porn or people claiming that masturbating 10 times a day over some random mysogynistic adult content is fine. Masturbation is healthy, but with limitations and without overstimulating yourself with all this content. You don't even need to access porn sites to find sexually arousing content and most of the times it's one of the kind of contents which companies and mainstream social media profits on because it makes us slaves to the screens
I don't understand why would you even purposely misunderstand the statement that destroying your life with porn and insane masturbation rythms is bad for your psychophysical health. The "90 days" are not a ritual, but the days most of the nofap users needed to actually get rid of the addiction and all its related effects and actually start a recovery journey. Also, we consider having actual sex a GOOD thing. NoFap is not about sexual abstinence, it's about ADDICTION RECOVERY
NoFap saved my life, I would probably still me as miserable as I was in my early teens if I've never discovered that community. You don't understand it because you either haven't tried it or just never been addicted.
You don't know the brain fog, the inability to even speak properly o to even make noarmal logical connections. You don't know the pain of always feeling the urge and feeling sleepy 24/7 and the heart fatigue related to it. NoFap increased my self esteem, my willpower and even fixed my sleeping schedule. Same for other people I know who have found themselves in the same situation
Always remember that a lot of these articles but be financed by porn companies, that's the only explanation. You don't need to be a genius to understand it
EDIT: Y'all are making a big deal over the term "addiction" and not over the issues that it brings
You're describing symptoms of depression. Porn addiction is not a thing, stop spreading misinformation.
Bro wants to teach me what I lived in first hand. These things ultimately end up doing the opposite of what you think. You start because of loneliness or boredom and you and up burning down your dopamine receptors.
Because out of nowhere whenever I do it I have brain fog and all but if I don't do it I feel better... Mh that doesn't sound like depression.
Y'all need to get out of nhentai 💀💀💀
EDIT: I would also mention that I started not-masturbating even before discovering the NoFap community and I could still see the benefits. It's worth mentioning so you don't tell me that it's a placebo or something
I think we can agree that your experience was valid and changed your life. The emphasis here is on your life for good reason. Porn and masturbation, like any other escape mechanism, is exactly that. I suspect something underlying as the cause for your need to escape that much. The nofap community there helped you reinforce that change. It does not make the community entirely wholesome.
What I wonder is if you would have had the same results with changes in your life without specifically focussing on porn and masturbation. I have observed this a few times in other areas, where changes to routine and outlook was the actual source of the improvement and not the thing the improvement was attributed to.
Just a thought. It is always good to try and understand yourself. It takes nothing away from your achievement in turning your life around.
I repeat: If I did it, all my energies suddenly disappeared, if I did not, they didn't. It's as simple as that - Just ditching porn out of my life fixed every single problem, literally. Tried to run a little bit after fapping (even a few days after)? Felt too tired and basically died. Tried to run after some days in NoFap? No problem. Same goes for everything mental. I repeat: it is psychophysically draining, much more than you would expect.
Im really active in the NoFap community as a lurker and never seen anything particularly toxic, just people cheering up other people who're facing their same problems. These articles y'all read are obviously in bad faith, because they take a edge case and extend it to a whole category without even showing evidence of toxicity in the community itself, purposely misunderstanding our words to make us look as the villains
The only issue is the NoFap subreddit, which is flooded by trolls, even though they usually get banned after a while. This is why I prefer the official NoFap forum
I would have never reached any of my goals if I didn't stop watching porn and stuff, because it was ditching porn out that made me able to start a recovery journey. I would have probably just surrended to depression induced by my miserable attitude and behaviour
Science should at least try to understand our instances and talk to us, rather than purposely misinterpreting it to make us look as idiots. Of course if you don't study a phenomenon you don't understand it
Thanks for being polite though 💕
No point in attacking you for something that works for you. Neither of us learns anything under those conditions. Philosophies teaching abstinence in physical pleasures have been around forever. In my mental map of the world, the NoFap community falls under those.
It is something you believe helps you be the person you want to be, more power to you. I would only consider it harmful if it attempts to impose its ideas on people who don't agree. Or deliberately spreads misinformation internally that may be harmful to its adherents.
Yet just removing that fixed everything. If I do it again, the symptoms come back. It's porn, period. Just at least try to listen to our stories and not only to these nonsense articles
"Listen to anecdotes, not science!" said the poster who can't accept that their porn habits might have been a coping mechanism.
Science doesn't say much because all the studies that have been made were like "we take 3 healthy individuals, we make the fap once and then see what happens next". It's that we do not have enough studies in this regard, maybe if science would try to make different cases involved in their studies we would know more
Well whatever you may have personally gained from it, that doesn't change the fact that it has an awful lot of members who are both far-right and pushing embarrassingly bad pesudo-science.
I've never noticed a particularly far-right bend to things, but there is some aspect of self control, temperence, and stoic resolve around it. If those are the parts that you refer to the alternative, unabashed capitulation to whim and fancy are typically very self destructive traits.
Nope, I'm talking the people who hate minorities and want them systemically murdered, in no way resembling your self-aggrandising comment.
The ones who throw constant tantrums about the opinions hypothetical strangers hold about their own genitals and are not at all stoic. The ones who do mass and impulse shootings and are not at all examples of self control.
If you haven't noticed it, you can't be looking very hard since it's literally part of becoming a Proud Boy.
People can decide for themselves if you've genuinely never noticed or if you're simply doing PR for a movement that grooms young men for extremism.
I know my call.
Unironically saying big porn propaganda.
You can't be anti porn and say masturbating isn't inherently bad in the same comment lol. Real lack of self awareness buddy.
You can masturbate without porn. You're being dense.
You have the understanding of a child and debate like one.