https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/09/tiktok-ban-poses-staggering-risks-to-americans-free-speech-tiktok-says/
TikTok's survival in the US may depend on an appeals court ruling this December.
The concern isn’t that these companies have microtargeting data. The concern is about what these companies could use that data for.
An off-brand t-shirt site would be a fairly ineffective vehicle for political propaganda. Tik Tok would be great at that.
Isn't the primary critique of TikTok the number of American leftists and progressives posting on it?
Seems like the propaganda is coming from inside the house.
That’s definitely the critique coming from America’s right.
That said, both America’s left and right wing politicians seem to agree that it’s dangerous to have a mass media recommendation algorithm in the hands of a foreign adversary.
If they want to promote content favorable a Chinese political objective, they can use micro targeting data do that with extreme precision - if they wanted to.
It doesn’t matter who created the content or where it was created. What matters is the message of the content and who it’s being directed to.
That said, both America’s left and right wing politicians seem to agree that it’s dangerous to have a mass media recommendation algorithm in the hands of a foreign adversary.
The presumption that social media is an international weapon of war does raise some disturbing questions about the right to free speech.
It doesn’t matter who created the content or where it was created. What matters is the message of the content
What specifically are we referring to on TikTok qualifies that can't be found on a rival platform?
Propaganda is a very well known way to enact influence on a foreign nation. It’s so well known that the US has 90 year old laws that limit foreign ownership of US media. For example, in order for Rupert Murdock to own media in the US, he had to become a US citizen and renounce his Australian citizenship in the 80s.
The people making the content have the right freedom of speech, but the people making the editorial decisions on what is / isn’t shown do not have that same right if they are not American citizens.
If tomorrow morning, the CCP decided to start promoting pro-CCP videos made by Americans, they could. And they could use micro targeting to connect people with pro-CCP influencers that were relatable. For example, I like nerdy shit, so I might get propaganda from a content creator that liked a lot of the same nerdy shit I liked.
The primary concern isn’t the content, it’s who controls the editor’s desk.
Propaganda is a very well known way to enact influence on a foreign nation.
Historically, the most effective use of propaganda is by the domestic government on its own citizenry. Closing out foreign sources of media, shutting down opposition venues for news and discussion, and criminalizing private parties that attempt to distribute outside opinion tend to facilitate the imposition of a national propaganda campaign.
The people making the content have the right freedom of speech, but the people making the editorial decisions on what is / isn’t shown do not have that same right if they are not American citizens.
This isn't simply closing off access to "free speech", it is closing off access to reporting on world events and international opinion. American citizens do not have the right to free expression of they are blinded and deafened to any kind of outside perspective.
How, exactly, do domestic residents gain information from the outside world if the state has the right to censor anyone outside of its borders from sending news into the country?
The primary concern isn’t the content, it’s who controls the editor’s desk.
If the US policy towards international media is "only American citizens have the right to sit at the editor's desk" then we're not talking about free speech, we're talking about political control of the press. The "American citizens" canard is simply an excuse to deny Americans access to outside media.
It is also highly disingenuous. Nobody is proposing the US block access to the BBC or CBC on these grounds.
The US has different laws for media ownership depending upon what the type of media is owned. For example, networks like BBC America fell under less scrutiny because legacy regulations around paid cable broadcasters were less stringent than those given to free airwaves.
That all being said, all of these regulations, old and new, are basically trying to do the same thing - limit propaganda opportunities for adversarial actors.
IMHO, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to look at what’s going on in Taiwan and Hong Kong, and say “maybe the CCP shouldn’t have easy access to a major media algorithm where stars are literally praised for their ability to ‘influence.’”
That's Hyundai/Kia's fault though. For whatever reason, they cheaped out and didn't include an immobilizer in 2011-2022 models (meaning the cars don't actually verify that there's a key in it, so you can just remove the key hole and turn the ignition with a screwdriver or USB cable or whatever to start it).
Before TikTok, this would have just spread on different platforms...
I'm not defending TikTok though.
That's like saying YouTube or Facebook I forget which one, got people to eat tide pods. Information spreads on all platforms whether good or bad.
Not really considering Youtube will nuke your fucking account if you promote criminal activity, TikTok will not. Therefore TikTok is liable.
TikTok also lied and made it seem like it wasn't a crime
Then how did all these people eat tide pods. Once tiktok realized they were promoting check fraud they stopped it but you can't react fast enough for some of these things
I understand blocking TikTok, and China already blocks US social media sites. I don't really understand blocking a shopping app, though. TikTok are grasping at straws.
Wouldn't this set a dangerous precedent? If the government blocks a shopping app, what else will they block in the future? It's a slippery slope to government censorship. China may do the same thing and block US stores, which would hurt the US economy.
Shopping apps aren't really needed, I mean people could use the websites instead. So banning them wouldn't do any harm. Apps takes too much space & data anyways, which is not needed to function.
China bans stuffs all the time for no reason and makes laws that makes it difficult for a foreign business stay in China.
China’s Anti-Espionage Law Raises Foreign Business Risk
A lot of companies are preparing to leave or left China already for like India or Vietnam. It's a slow transition, but it's happening.
Apple's iPhone factory shift has left a ghost town behind in China
Why Companies Are Exiting China And What Leaders Can Do About It
Shopping apps aren't really needed, I mean people could use the websites instead
You could say the same thing for probably half the apps in the app stores, and yet people keep installing the apps. On iPhones, I think part of it is the fact that iOS had such poor support for PWAs.
more control and better monetization was probably the reason, y'know so apple can get that unfair cut.
US tech companies too, you fucking cowards.
Facebook paid kids to install a VPN client on their smartphones so they could intercept AND DECRYPT traffic between competing services (like Snapchat, Amazon, Youtube)
facebook and any other company they acquire (or however they try to rebrand) are not only untrustworthy but active adversaries against common decency and basic privacy
It's because this isn't about privacy at all, it's about a popular social media platform being outside the control of domestic intelligence agencies. The US is unable to control the narrative on TikTok the way they do on American social media, which allowed pro-palestinian sentiment to spread there unhindered. It had a huge effect on the politics of the younger generation (IMO a positive one) by showing them news and first hand accounts they wouldn't have seen otherwise.
Edit: And yes, China is able to control the narrative on TikTok and that is a potential problem, but so far they've had a fairly hands-off approach to US TikTok aside from basic language censorship. I figure the way China sees it is that an unmoderated free-for-all will do more to sow divisions in the US than a carefully controlled (and therefore obvious) pro-China narrative ever could.
The concern isn’t the input, it’s the potential output. Temu doesn’t have the potential to be used for a large micro-targeted political messaging campaign.
This is arguably more akin to how the US handles TV and radio. There are national security restrictions on foreign ownership.
The US owns and regulates the frequencies TV and radio are broadcast on. The Internet is not the same. If the threat of foreign propaganda is the purpose, why can I download the official RT (Russia Today, government run propaganda outlet) app in the Play Store? If the US is worried about a foreign government spreading propaganda, why are they targeting the popular social media app that could theoretically (but no evidence it's been done yet) be used for propaganda, instead of the actual Russian propaganda app? Hell I can download the south china morning post right from the Play store, straight Chinese propaganda! There are also dozens of Chinese and other foreign adversary run social media platforms, and other apps that could "micro target political messaging campaigns" available. So why did the US Congress single out one single app for punishment?
Money. The problem isn't propaganda. The problem is money. The problem is tik Tok is or is on the course to be more popular than our American social media platforms. The problem is American firms are being outcompeted in the marketplace, and the government is stepping in to protect the American data mining market. The problem is young people are trading their data for tik toks, instead of giving that data over to be sold to us advertising networks in exchange for YouTube shorts and Instagram stories. If the problem was propaganda, the US would go after propaganda. If the problem is just a Chinese company offers a better product than US companies, then there's no reason to draft nuanced legislation that goes after all potential foreign influence vectors, you just ban the one app that is hurting the share price of your donors.
The US owns and regulates the frequencies TV and radio are broadcast on.
The US has also historically regulated who owns media companies.
As for RT vs TikTok - good question. My guess is that scale and influence have a lot to do with why regulating TikTok was prioritized. Also RT has been removed from most broadcasters and App Stores in the US.
My guess is that scale and influence have a lot to do with
To break this down a little, first of all "my guess". You are guessing because the government which is literally enacting a speech restriction hasn't explained its rational for banning one potential source of disinformation vs actual sources of disinformation. So you are left in the position of guessing. To put a finer point on it, you are in the position of assuming the government is acting with good intentions and doing the labor of searching for a justification that fits with that assumption. Reminds me of the Iraq war when so many conversations I had with people had their default argument be "the government wouldn't do this if they didn't have a good reason". I don't like to be cynical, and I don't want to be a "both sides, all politicians are corrupt" kind of guy, but I think it's pretty clear in this case there is every reason to be cynical. This was just an unfortunate confluence of anti Chinese hate and fear, anti young people hate, and big tech donations that resulted in the government banning a platform used by millions of Americans to disseminate speech. But because Dems helped do it, so many people feel the need to reflexively defend it, even forcing them to "guess" and make up rationales.
As far as influence and reach, obviously that's not in the bill. Influence is straight out, RT is highly influential in right wing spaces. In terms of numbers of users, that just goes to the profit potential that our good ol American firms are missing out on.
If the US was concerned with propaganda or whatever, they could just regulate the content available on all platforms. They could require all platforms to have transparency around algorithms for recommending content. They could require oversight of how all social media companies operate, much like they do with financial firms or are trying to do with big AI platforms.
But they didn't. Because they are not attacking a specific problem, they are attacking a specific company.
Also RT has been removed from most broadcasters and App Stores in the US.
Broadcasters voluntarily dropped it after 2016, I think it's still available on some including dish. As far as app stores, that's just false, I just checked the Play store and it's right there ready to download and fill my head with propaganda.
I’m mostly just guessing because I’m at work right now, and while I’m on a pee break I don’t have the time or energy to research the nuance of foreign media ownership legislation and regulation.
Murdoch is an American citizen.
Murdoch became a naturalized US citizen in the 80’s so that he could comply with US laws about foreign nationals owning media entities.
Oh, ew.
Thanks for the correction but also that's... About right for America and billionaires.
Just allowed in to fuck with people, hack phones, steal money and leave.
They care about companies they have less control over and a foreign adversary has more control over invading privacy, for reasons unrelated to seeing privacy as a good in itself.
It's time to start taxing the acquisition, retention, and selling/trading of personal data.
Actually, that time was 40 years ago.
Better solution.
Data are owned by the generator. Only they can sell it etc...
This also solves the privacy problem of law enforcement agencies applying warrants to phone companies etc. for access to your data, which has been an end-run around 4th Amendment rights for decades.
Exactly. If a company wants to sell my data, they should have to make an explicit agreement with me to do that. If law enforcement wants data from my phone company, they should either produce a warrant or get my permission to release it. And so on.
If a company holds my data, they should be legally accountable for safeguarding it, and liable if it gets in the hands of someone I don't have an agreement with. Banks do that with my money, I don't see why social media companies should have any less expectation here.
And no, burying some form of consent in a TOS isn't sufficient, it needs to be explicit and there needs to be a reasonable expectation that the customer understands the terms.
I'd say it also needs to be entirely optional and be opt-in only. Any service, program, whatever needs to work fully for anyone who doesn't allow their data to be sold or released with extremely few exceptions.
GDPR is a start, but we need to actually ban it, not just annoy people until they click Accept at the 20th popup of that tantalising offer to share your details with 1473 trusted data partners.
There's a bunch of newspapers already with the option between pay for privacy plus or accept tracking.
Fortunately there's a third option which is leave the site and never come back.
Plus most of the sites will ask you again after a period of time. Until you say yes. After that they can strangely remember your choice.
There's a bunch of newspapers already with the option between pay for privacy plus or accept tracking.
The EU has ruled that this isn't sufficient and that people shouldn't have to pay for privacy.
Of course, companies in the USA won't care, except for customers in California (thanks, CCPA and CPRA).
Google and Microsoft would be scrambling to pay off every single person associated with that before it ever hit the first courtroom floor.
ohhh data collection taxation, I like it. You would think it would be a no-brainer but look at marijuana taxation and the continued resistance to rake in all that public funding. Would make most of the controversy around AI disappear if they tax it's collection.
Is tiktok saying that all Chinese apps that steal our data are also stealing our data because they were designed to steal our data?!
I am SHOCKED.
Lol, what domestic social media apps are the US government trying to ban?
What's that? None of them? Ah okay.
The concern is international espionage, there are really only 2 big players in that space. One of them is the US, can you guess the other?
You're clearly arguing that tiktok is arguing in court that all Chinese apps steal your data.
This is patently false to anyone who has read the article. But, of course, it's much easier to find something to be outraged over when you don't really know what's going on.
Lenovo definitely deserves to be banned after that shit they pulled with the malicious root certificates.
I think it should depend on the software and what's being collected & shared, also where it's hosted.
While Lenovo has have some securities risk & concerns in the past. You can circumvented a lot by installing a fresh copy of windows or Linux. They don't really havest data or track you like TikTok does. There is no algorithm, no influence on politics or feeding propaganda.
I think TikTok would be okay, if Android had a better sandbox environment (like GrapheneOS), but google also wants your data..
I'd rather they just ban spy apps in general...but that's a "dream a little dream, it's never gonna happen" type of thing.
And all the CIA ones.
Let's hear some of those app names, you seem to have a few ready to fire off on a whim.
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced."
that data goes to the US government instead of to the CCP
Going to blow people's minds when they find out Temu data also goes to the US government and Facebook data also goes to the CCP.
This shit is just a commodity. It's auctioned off at the bid rate. The NSA doesn't just lay claim to this data, it buys it. And these Big Data companies are only handing it over because of the absurd margins NSA (and MI5 and the rest of the Five Eyes) directors are willing to pay.
Your data isn't any safer because the parent company is owned by a foreign plutocrat. This is a big club and you ain't in it.
Oh no, I'm not under any illusion that my data is safer with any of them lol. I'm just saying that that's why the US doesn't ban American social networks/companies. Because it's all about control.
Technically, the second partof that bill bans sending user data to China for all companies, so it's foreseeabke that they get fined into the dirt if nothing else.
I hope the Facebook multi-billion dollar fines act as precedent.
it’s foreseeabke that they get fined into the dirt if nothing else.
Or they just route the sale of traffic through a domestic data broker and buy "analysis" on the Chinese side of the legal fence. There are so many badly policed and underregulated aspects of the data business that this shit never amounts to more than publicity stunts.
American trade with China only ever increases year-to-year, despite all the noise about a Trade War. Chinese based drop-shipping schemes only ever eat into our domestic market share, because American incomes are falling into line with the global average and that's the kind of trade good international middle class workers can afford. And all this shit is getting blended together - Indian and Chinese businesses outsource to Indochina and Malaysia and Indonesia where labor is cheaper. Everything gets routed and flagged through Singapore anyway, so the real origin of a good is obscured by the time it lands on your doorstep. And nobody in the business of making money wants to pay a politician to do anything about this in practice.
Nobody is getting fined, much less into-the-dirt.
Or they just route the sale of traffic through a domestic data broker and buy “analysis” on the Chinese side of the legal fence. There are so many badly policed and underregulated aspects of the data business that this shit never amounts to more than publicity stunts.
That is literally what Facebook was fined for, BEFORE the new laws were put in place. Cambridge Analytica did what you just described.
I'm surprised so many people think this is a good argument. TikTok is a social media platform. Temu is an online marketplace. The potential to cause disruption within US society is completely different.
Legally it is a very good argument. A law targeting a single company in name or effect is literally unconstitutional. It's called a "Bill of Attainder".
The counter argument is indicting Facebook because they never stopped selling information directly to the CCP.
Cool, let's ban Temu then. Nothing of value will be lost.
In all honesty though, I disagree with banning software, and that includes TikTok. I think it's a terrible platform and I refuse to use it, but I think we need to solve the underlying problem another way, otherwise we're just picking and choosing what speech is allowed in this country. The Constitution doesn't only protect American citizens, it protects everyone.
That said, if we're going to ban one, let's ban them all. These apps haven't provided any tangible value IMO and they've arguably caused a fair amount of harm, so I'm not going to die on a hill defending them.
I said Facebook because we know they're doing it and you'd still have to actually prove that case.
Sure, and we should absolutely indict Facebook. And ideally our government wouldn't be so corrupt that it could indict our own government agencies from buying information from them in violation of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 9th amendments (and probably the 14th).
How about making data collection other than necessary to operate a website illegal, then making the sale of that data illegal, and absolutely require a warrant to collect it, including from FISA court?
I disagree, especially because "other than necessary" is a pretty squishy concept (i.e. selling tailored ads could be considered "necessary to operate a website"). Instead of that, I think selling or providing any form of data collected without the customer's explicit consent (and to consent, the customer must know what data is being s hared) or without a warrant (and only the data in the warrant) should be illegal.
That should be sufficient and actually enforceable, since it has very clear boundaries on what's included.
I think we're in agreement. I could have said "technologically necessary" to have been more clear, but I don't agree sale or sharing should be by consent. I think it should be illegal, full stop.
The Constitution doesn’t only protect American citizens, it protects everyone
Uh, no. It doesn't protect everyone, not by a long shot. The US constitution doesn't guarantee Chinese citizens, living in China, the right to freedom of the press.
...And this isn't about which speech they're allowing. This is about who controls the platform, and how they respond to gov't inquiries. If TikTok is divested from ByteDance, so that they're no longer based in China and subject to China's laws and interference, then there's no problem. There are two fundamental issues; first, TikTok appears to be a tool of the Chinese gov't (this is the best guess, considering that large parts of the intelligence about it are highly classified), and may be currently being used to amplify Chinese-state propaganda as well as increase political division, and second, what ByteDance is doing with the enormous amounts of data it's collection, esp. from people that may be in sensitive or classified locations.
As I stated, if TikTok is sold off so that they're no longer connected to China, then they're more than welcome to continue to operate. ByteDance is refusing to do that.
The US constitution doesn’t guarantee Chinese citizens, living in China, the right to freedom of the press.
True, but the US constitution guarantees Chinese citizens, living in or visiting the US or its territories, all the rights in the Constitution. So when TikTok operates in the US and provides services to US customers, it gets the protections of the US Constitution, as well as the obligations of US law.
TikTok appears to be a tool of the Chinese gov’t
And this is covered by freedom of the press. There's no legal requirement for press to be pro-US, and it doesn't necessarily need to be accurate, it just can't be fraudulent. If TikTok is being fraudulent, then they should be held accountable for that.
As I stated, if TikTok is sold off so that they’re no longer connected to China, then they’re more than welcome to continue to operate.
Yes, according to the law that they're contesting.
I'm saying that I don't think this law is constitutional. I don't use TikTok, I believe TikTok is dangerous, and I don't think anyone should use it, but I'm also uncomfortable with the government picking and choosing which apps I can use, especially when the justification seems to be about the speech on that app. So even though I wish TikTok would disappear, I don't think that justifies using the law to accomplish that.
There's no been proof that Tik Tok sends all the data to China or that China manipulates the algorithm. In fact, to appease the US before, they agreed to let Oracle and a purely US subsidiary look at all their code and data and content moderation. Oracle would spot check the data flows and where it goes. Tik Tok would report to Committee on Foreign Investment in the US on everything, even hiring practices. And a 2021 study found Tik Tok didn't really collect data beyond the norm of other players in the industry, or beyond what it said it did in it's policy.
All this scaring is literally just because politicians are scared that people in Gaza can use it to report what's happening to themselves during the genocide, without the blatant censorship of American companies on the issue. Even Romney admitted that's the reason. I don't actually use Tik Tok and I think it's algorithms are bad for our ADHD addled brains, but I would also apply that to YouTube shorts and Instagram stories. They should all be regulated, not banned. Hell, we actually could use more foreign companies that aren't vulnerable to US censorship, not the opposite. This is especially important since reporters aren't being let in Gaza and the ones who are are killed. And we'll probably lose it once they finish their restructuring in Project Texas, although sounds like they'll be banned before they do.
A US Citizen might be protected by Article 1 Section 9, but courts have adopted a three-part test to determine if a law functions as a bill of attainder:
And unfortunately for the CCP they fail #3 unless the Chinese owners divest and all Chinese centralization for the company gets shut down.
Also, the tiktok ban was passed alongside a bill outlawing sale of data to China, Iran, Russia, etc. So if FB is still selling to China it is also illegal.
And unfortunately for the CCP they fail #3
The bill doesn't target the CCP, it targets a US subsidiary of a Singapore-based multinational.
unless the Chinese owners divest and all Chinese centralization for the company gets shut down
A rule that applies exclusively to the US subsidiary of TikTok.
It would be akin to passing a law that says @finitebanjo must have all of his possessions seized in the next nine months, because he took money from the Canadian government. Canada isn't the target of the legislation and the scope of the legislation isn't universal - it's only assigning a punishment to a single domestic resident - and entirely on the grounds that the current chief executive doesn't like Justin Trudeau.
It would be akin to passing a law that states Finite Banjo's friend Jose must no longer act as a proxy between Finite Banjo and Jose's friend Juan, as Finite Banjo is not constitutionally protected but Jose is, or Jose must cut all contact with Juan because Finite Banjo is harming Juan.
The fact that you think you can remove all context in an attempt to win an argument is just evidence of your inability to comprehend complexity.
It would be akin to passing a law that states Finite Banjo’s friend Jose
Except, again, the business being penalized is the American subsidiary.
The fact that you think you can remove all context
The context is that the commercial assets and employees being threatened by the US government are all within US territory.
#3. Number 3. The third part. THREE. Learn to read. All three are required conditions.
The parent company don't have judicial protections. They're based in China and are state owned and operated. The US-Based subsidiary isn't being punished, they're explicitly allowed to operate if the parent company divests, but are choosing to shut down instead.
And the subsidiary has explicit permission to continue operating if the parent company divests.
But explicit prohibition on continued operation if they don't. ByteDance is not affected outside of the US. Only US employees are being threatened.
The argument here is more along the lines of, "you can't make a law that defines something as murder only when I do it."
selective enforcement of the law is a real issue. One of the reasons Donald Trump will likely never go to jail is the failure to prosecute nixon, reagan (iran contra, iran hostage crisis meddling), and Bush/Cheney(wmd fiasco)
And one of the reasons POC are more likely go to jail (or even gets shot) for something a white man would be let free with only a warning… At least in the “free” land.
I hate Reagan with all my heart, but in his defence there is little to no evidence Reagan knew what his subordinates were doing with Iran Contra. Those subordinates did face judgement and were not pardoned until late 2007.
You can't spy on our citizens, that's our (and our corporations') job!
Signed, the US Government