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Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules in couples’ wrongful death suits

https://www.al.com/news/mobile/2024/02/frozen-embryos-are-children-alabama-supreme-court-rules-in-reviving-couples-wrongful-death-suits.html

The state's highest court reversed a judge's dismissal of the case involving embryos destroyed by a wandering Mobile hospital patient.

Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules in couples’ wrongful death suits

The state's highest court reversed a judge's dismissal of the case involving embryos destroyed by a wandering Mobile hospital patient.

112 comments

Ghostalmedia

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Alabama families who are struggling with fertility can now look forward to no fertility clinics willing to endure the legal risk of operating in that state.

Great job republicans. These weird ass “pro life” laws continue to prevent people who want kids from having them, or prevent people from having them without dying.

ElleChaise

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Not to mention those who can afford to will simply leave to make families elsewhere. Making a child generally tends to rank higher on people's priorities list than staying in one state forever.

superduperenigma

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Especially when that state is Alabama.

agent_flounder

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And even more when education, healthcare and other factors are considered.

meat_popsicle

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Good news: fundies agree with you. They always hated IVF and view infertility as God’s judgment on you as a person.

agent_flounder

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(unless it happens to them personally, of course)

III

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That's when it becomes "God's plan".

flipht

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Seems like part of the goal. Outlaw abortion, force everyone who doesn't want a child to hand it over to the state, which will outsource to religious organizations, and then tighten up the child supply so anyone who can't have but wants a child will have to go through a local church to get access, and the price will go up.

Win win win for the religious fanatics.

HubertManne

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many of them don't like unnatural procreation.

not_again

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Creation of embryos should happen entirely outside the body of the female, followed by decapitation of the male as God intended.

Sincerely,

P. Mantis, esq

HubertManne

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you thought autoerotic asphyxiation was good. Wait till you try autoerotic decapitation.

ColeSloth

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Well it seems they're all in the illegal business of buying and selling children. They'll have to all be prosecuted anyhow, including all the donors and buyers. Along with the state itself for allowing the selling of children for all these years.

KyuubiNoKitsune

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Soon it'll be illegal to end your ovulation cycle because every egg is a life. Jesus these people are some fucking dumb religious zealots.

queermunist

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They aren't dumb. They're evil and trying to enslave women to reproductive labor.

Bobmighty

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Many are both. The intelligently evil ones are being overrun by stupid, cruel hicks.

riskable

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No no... I've met many that are really fucking dumb. The evil ones are the people in charge, convincing them of the bullshit.

queermunist

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I'm talking about the Alabama Supreme Court, not random dipshits that vote for this stuff.

monotremata

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A recent (satire) headline from The Onion: https://www.theonion.com/alabama-middle-schooler-jailed-after-taking-basketball-1851186115

agent_flounder

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That's what makes them so incredibly dangerous.

TakiMinase

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The stupid sword cuts everyone including its owner.

Naja_Kaouthia

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https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk?si=fuIdFNwzo_huRxQW

Maggoty

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That's exactly what this is trying to do.

Gazumi

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It won't be long before the Monty Python song about every sperm being sacred, becomes the MAGA crowds mantra. Wankers that they are.

ThatFembyWho

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I gotta confess. Cuz the guilt is overwhelming.

In my teens and early twenties, I committed A LOT of sacrilege on a daily basis.

We're talking millions of coulda-been-babies that ended up wrapped in tissue and tossed into trash cans.

tigeruppercut

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If it was millions and not billions, you might want to see a doc if you ever plan on having kids

Scubus

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Bruh I've killed more babies than all the humans that have ever been born

tigeruppercut

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Maybe we can start a club

ThatFembyWho

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Ah yes, yeeting billions instead of millions of hypothetical babies makes me feel much better

..asshole /j

Gazumi

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So long as it wasn't into a public trash can, you probably got away with it.

peanutbutter_gas

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I think the embryos are also thrown in the trash. Are these where dumpster babies come from?

Leviathan

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Bloody Catholics filling the bloody world with bloody children they can't afford to bloody feed.

TransplantedSconie

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That's what being a Protestant's all about. That's why it's the church for me. That's why it's the church for anyone who respects the individual and the individual's right to decide for him or herself. When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in fifteen- seventeen, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, but four hundred years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas,... [sniff] ...and, Protestantism doesn't stop at the simple condom! Oh, no! I can wear French Ticklers if I want

Leviathan

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You what?

TransplantedSconie

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French Ticklers. Black Mambos. Crocodile Ribs. Sheaths that are designed not only to protect, but also to enhance the stimulation of sexual congress

madcaesar

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bOtH sIdEs aRe tHe sAmE!!!

The fuck they are. If you are a woman voting republican you are OK with other people telling you what to do with your body.

bigMouthCommie

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>bOtH sIdEs aRe tHe sAmE!!!

no one is saying that

Dkarma

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People on nearly every political thread are saying that.

bigMouthCommie

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I haven't seen it but I've seen a lot of people claiming it is.

wagoner

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It's rampant in mainstream media.

bigMouthCommie

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can you link that?

wagoner

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I mean, if you're genuinely interested, read the new York times, also search bothsidesism. Have fun!

bigMouthCommie

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if you could really support your case, I wouldn't need to do the research for you.

jkjustjoshing

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It’s less about explicitly saying they’re the same, it’s using whataboutism when criticizing the right and giving equal weight/legitimacy to “experts” on both sides.

bigMouthCommie

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when does that happen around topics like the op

Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules in couples’ wrongful death suits

Burn_The_Right

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It's the standard conservative defense when they are called out for being sub-human pieces of shit.

LifeInMultipleChoice

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My parents were watching 60 minutes last night and they discussed the stolen electors and the efforts to steal the election. To which ones response is that well Biden is so bad they still want him. When asked why they didn't find another candidate there is nothing but that is who the GOP wants. They just say everything is a lie now so they can ignore whatever they choose and say the Democrats are just as bad. Pretty much "Both sides" as it gets.

Edit: They don't like that I say all Democrat and Republicans should be voted out and removed then.

Burn_The_Right

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Keep fighting the good fight. I am saddened by the loss of so many of my family members to conservatism. They chose to make enemies of normal people. So now they stew in their world of bigotry, wondering why their closest family members won't talk to them anymore.

Demdaru

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Lol I was saying that back when these claims were sane.

But that shit is waaaay out. Being a centrist, I guess I have to support "left" now....right went over horizon.

bradorsomething

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I’ve voted as a “compassionate conservative” for over 30 years, and without changing views I’m now a bit left of Biden. It’s been crazy to watch.

joneskind

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Sooo how does it work when you've done a successful IVF and still got a bunch of Frozen embryos waiting somewhere? Do you get back at home and put them in the freezer until you die? Are you mandated to carry them to term? What if a woman dies in a car accident before she had a chance to carry the embryo? Is the man mandated to find someone to carry them to term? I have so many questions

Steve

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Declare them all as dependents and apply for their welfare checks, and see what they say

meco03211

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GQP: No not like that!

GnomeKat

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I get you are just making a joke but I hate responses like this, it completely misses the point. It's like those dumb carpool memes. It just doesn't work like that.

Fascists absolutely do not care about consistent ideology. Their goal is to hurt people, it's about power and disciplining/terrorizing the working class. We are cattle to them, our only purpose for existing is to serve and if we get too uppity they turn the screws. They are trying to systematically hurt and depower certain groups of people, not apply some consistent ideology. They will always just do whatever gives them power and takes power away from the groups they have deemed lower.

SeaJ

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I would imagine you have to pay to store them until you can find an out of state clinic to take them and dispose of them. This won't result in fewer embryo terminations. It will likely just mean IVF will be more expensive.

wagoner

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Until there is no other state that will allow it. Or the state you are in prohibits transfers like this.

SeaJ

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The first one is extremely unlikely. Since Alabama sees these as people, the second one would be limiting freedom of travel which would be unconstitutional. I'm sure Republicans would not want the precedent that people can be forced to stay where they are. They really hated the covid lockdowns and I am sure they would never be hypocrites. /s

Ullallulloo

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This only applies to the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, so if the parents agree, it's legal.

just_change_it

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Don't forget kids, a miscarriage is murder.

Slavery is freedom.

Those with money are the only people who matter, and whoever has the most is the one who deserves to decide every aspect of how everyone else should live.

Mediocre_Bard

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So ... if they are people ... and they aren't used for 21 years ... can their infant form but alcohol?

peg

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They could apply for retirement benefits at 50.

Timecircleline

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They'll probably argue something about needing to have had their 21st birthday but birthdays don't start until birth.

yesman

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IVF results in children being born who otherwise would not have been. These are women who want to be pregnant and give birth. Yet, the pro-life movement is trying to destroy this kind of healthcare.

captainlezbian

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Well we are disproportionately likely to be born as abominations unto ~~nuggan~~ the lord, or as we’re called in lands of sin “intersex”.

But seriously chimerism is more common among us IVF babies and that does mean that we’re more likely to have different cells have different sex chromosomes. Idk if these people know about that but it is something I can see them using as justification here.

The catholic justification is that it never mattered if you wanted to make a child, what matters is if god wants you to. And if you really want a kid anyways adopt.

TheRealKuni

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abominations unto ~~nuggan~~

Excellent reference to an excellent book (Monstrous Regiment) from an excellent series by an excellent author.

GNU Terry Pratchett.

Edit: fixed my markdown

sapient_cogbag

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Its all bioreactionary stuff, really. Its always been about control and conformity to their idea of a """natural""" role.

Using technology to aid in reproduction is seen as bad because it's doing something """nature"""/"""god""" did not dictate you do as per their highly authoritarian worldview.

Basically anything that would let you have agency over your body is hated by these people, because their real ideology is one of control, social and physical conformity, and obedience (to "god", to what's "natural", to repressive social norms, to churches, to parents - these folks view children as property, to whatever hierarchy exists, to some strongman leader, etc. :/)

The same logic applies to something as comparatively minor as hairdye or piercings - they always freak out about that stuff, ever notice? - to something as major as being trans or the state of someone's uterus. Its all about control over people's bodies and minds and identities to what they may deem "natural" (or often "godly") (which usually involves hierarchies of prejudice as well as opposing any technological means to have control over yourself, and also opposing people's access to information and critical thinking skills - e.g. promoting internet censorship often of queer groups <.<, or opposing science & critical thinking education).

Anything that gives people the option to decide for themselves what they want - technologically, socially, informationally - rather than obeying some higher authority ("nature", "god", the state, corporations, parents, social norms) is opposed. Anything that demonstrates people have used those methods - such as any kind of transition stuff, miscarrages (because it "could" be due to abortificants nya), or the things mentioned earlier - is to be punished. Socially, monetarily, physically, legally, anything.

shneancy

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half the shit they preach isn't "natural" either!

if they so want to be "natural" I'd like to see them barely dressed in scraps of leather fucking in the forest clearning and grunting at others for coming up to them when they're eating, then dying of food poisoning because reading a plants guide is unnatural and that mushroom looked tasty. Ditch the cell phones, ditch the glasses, ditch the shoes, none of them are natural.

it's literally all arbitrary, all made up to fit their worldview

TengoDosVacas

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I for one am sick and tired of everyone talking about freedom and 2A rights when nobody has done a single fucking thing about the obvious tyranny.

There's another thread begging us not to excoriate Alabama citizens because of a few corrupt politicians and religious wackos. NO. I was born there. My family are there. And they are a bunch of psychotic freedom-hating, gun-toting, bible-thumping neanderthal psychopaths just like their politicians are.

Here are the facts: the people whining and complaining about this sit there and take it. It's always someone else; it's never the psychotic lunatics in their own family, so they take it. If only all those other people would speak up and do something.

My brother has spent his lifetime campaigning for pro-life causes whenever he can because he went to a psychotic christian university. I don't have anything to do with him. His only son killed himself at 13 in a gun mishap but he is masturbating FURIOUSLY over this AL SupCourt decision.

This WILL continue until you ACTUALLY FIGHT IT. If you have no intention to or think that's somehow barbaric, then sit down and shut the fuck up.

MataVatnik

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2A fight has been lost decades ago. It now only is overweight larpers with their AR platforms. In order for the 2A to mean anything we need to build a national network of militias. Without that infrastructure an armed action or threat is just a lunatic with a gun

stoly

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People love think that they would survive some dude flying a kamikaze drone from under a mountain.

Maggoty

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Lol.nope. Militias aren't going to stand a a chance against the federal government and if we got invaded the military would be begging people to stop getting in the way of the world's most efficient killing machine.

MataVatnik

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There's more to war than war.

CaptKoala

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Yes, such as war.

Maggoty

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You're assuming a lot there. All else being equal making a super militia is not going to swing things.

MataVatnik

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Think of it more like a union. And armed forces arent necessarily the best vehicle for political change for obvious reasons, but rather they are good for protecting human rights from institutions that want to take them away. For instance, a pro choice militia that would protect a clinic, doctor, or patient from a state agency trying to arrest them and prosecute them. Also, it doesn't need to end up in a shootout, a lot of military and defense is about hypothesis of conflict and the potential cost that comes with it. Sure, a federal or government institution could wipe the floor with the militia, but would it be worth it monetarily and politically?

Maggoty

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In the case you highlight? Absolutely. Christian fascists see violence against the oppressed group as a good thing.

knightly

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I love this argument, because in reality the U.S. government hasn't won a military victory against an entrenched militia since Grenada. And that was just a tiny island. We couldn't beat the taliban, who were armed with a bunch of cold war surplus gear.

Even if the U.S. military and police forces wanted to fight a civil war against their own population, they would have to do so knowing that the American public has 100 guns for every soldier and cop.

Tanks, planes, and drones can't do much without soldiers on the ground to enforce an occupation.

Maggoty

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I see you've fallen for the propaganda. The Taliban only came back after we left. And only because they had enough support from the people. AQ and ISIS are shattered. Al-Shabab is basically the FARC of East Africa now.

I know you guys think you have some kind of "silent majority" but you really don't. Given a choice between normalcy and living in an insurgency, most people will choose normalcy in a heart beat. So it won't be the military vs the people. It will be the militias vs the people and their military. At best you'll get sizeable chunks of some red state populations. Just imagine how thrilled the other 90% of the country is going to be that you chose violence. Yeah, they're going to cheer videos of Apache gun cam footage on live TV. And you'll still be clueless.

Varyk

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Whoops, no they aren't.

Made a whoopsie there, Alabama

9488fcea02a9

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If embryos are children, then make it illegal to freeze them and lock them away in an ice box.... That's a cruel form of torture

afraid_of_zombies

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This is your brain on Christianity

catloaf

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That doesn't seem right. I assume they're suing to cover the cost of redoing the procedure, but I don't think the court should be setting this precedent. There must be another law they could sue under. (And hopefully they didn't get complete sterilization after freezing those embryos.)

NigelFrobisher

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If they’re people they should be given ARs and put on the street to spread freedom.

ShepherdPie

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Plus we should be able to claim them as dependents on our tax returns.

Null

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So if they are children we can take them off our taxes? I joke but that same thinking happened in Georgia when the pregnant woman used the HOV lane being the only person in the car.

https://www.liveaction.org/news/georgia-opens-hov-lanes-pregnant-women/

Dead_or_Alive

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Wow what a tax write off. Imagine claiming child tax credits on frozen embryos… You could just freeze a hundred or even thousands of embryos and watch the cash flow in perpetuity…

BigMacHole

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But you CAN'T claim them on your Taxes!

Flumpkin

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Next up: Masturbation is mass murder. Every Sperm is Sacred!

Drusas

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The patient removed embryos from the freezer, and “it is believed that the cryopreservation’s subzero temperatures burned the eloping patient’s hands, causing him or her to drop the cryopreserved embryonic human beings on the floor, where they began to slowly die,” one of the filings stated.

So the patient killed his or her frozen embryos and now they're suing the clinic for wrongful death of a minor. Makes sense on so many levels.

festus

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This patient killed three other couple's embryos, not their own. The clinic is being sued and I assume (can't find confirmation) that this patient is also getting sued.

Drusas

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Ahh, thanks, I misread. It's still fucking stupid.

SaiPenguin

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No, that is not what the article says.

I would recommend reading an article before trying to come to conclusions about what it means.

Drusas

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I would recommend not being rude and assuming that people are speaking in good faith when it's obviously clear that they misread something.

Paddzr

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How does the saying goes? Don't assume malice when competence could be a factor?

Says nothing about being an idiot skimming an article and latching onto the first paragraph that aligns to what they want to read.

This is further than just "misreading".

SaiPenguin

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It may be time to realign yourself on what’s rude.

Drusas

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It may be time to align yourself with the concept for the first time.

SaiPenguin

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Haha, ya zinged me! Have a good one :)

thantik

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~~Hold up, this sounds like unfertilized eggs. Does this mean that every period a woman has, where she passes an unfertilized egg is a wrongful death?! What in the FUUUUUCK...~~

I am an idiot, excuse me.

Ghostalmedia

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Embryos develop after fertilization.

thantik

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Ah okay - I never realized that distinction; or I did, but I'm having a moment. :D

Additionally, I didn't realize embryos could be frozen.

myster0n

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Not only can they be frozen, but when they're frozen and you drop them in coca cola light, they work even better than mentos!

Ghostalmedia

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It’s quite common. People do it all the time for IVF.

thantik

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I'm guessing the distinction here that allows this is that the cells haven't differentiated into more complex structures that could be damaged by cryogen.

superduperenigma

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They pretty much need to be frozen or destroyed if multiple eggs are retrieved during an egg retrieval procedure for IVF. You only implant one embryo at a time, so if you collect 8 eggs during the retrieval you'll potentially have 7 viable embryos that need to be dealt with, for example.

They fertilize each of the eggs that were retrieved and observe their development over a few days. Some will not develop well enough to be considered for implantation into the uterus, and they basically need to be destroyed as they have no hope of developing past a few weeks at most.

They'll use the most promising embryo for implantation. The remaining good quality embryos can be implanted at a later time, either if the first embryo doesn't work out or years later if you decide to have another kid. You can pay to have them frozen and stored for the next time you need to do IVF (which saves a ton of money on your next round of IVF since you don't need to pay for the medication or egg retrieval procedure), you can donate the embryos, or they can be destroyed.

Nepenthe

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True. Problem is, I would consider the question still valid on the basis that not every embryo successfully implants.

IVF can up the odds of success by using multiple embryos at the same time in the hopes that at least one of them will work, which is why people who go for IVF sometimes end up having quadruplets and such.

So every time one or more IVF attempts fail, what, they have to inform the government their 7th child in a row has died? Every post-coital period, do I hedge my bets?

Ghostalmedia

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Agreed. That said, I was just correcting the above commenter on the biology. It looks like they didn’t actually know when an embryo became an embryo. And it’s after fertilization. And even then, many fertilized eggs don’t actually become embryos.

WoahWoah

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I like your attitude! More people like you in this world, please!

thantik

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I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, but I promise you the world needs far less of people like me. I have far too many mental illnesses to count and don't play nice with others; even though I have an optimistic view of what humanity COULD be, and a general disillusionment because of seeing what humanity currently is.

But thank you all the same ;)

WoahWoah

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Stfu, you're mentally ill, you don't know what we need more of in this world. MORE OF YOU, MORE OF YOU, MORE OF YOU. 🥰

thantik

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Thank you, you got a smile out of me and that's more than most people achieve these days.

WoahWoah

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Be kinder to yourself (only a little bit!). That world you're hoping for involves more people like you, and each of them feeling less unneeded.

Mental illness in a a very ill world can only mean so much. Eyes to the horizon, my friend.

FiskFisk33

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WoahWoah

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No.

starman2112

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+1 for calling out your own ignorance and leaving the comment up

FordBeeblebrox

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If I jizz into a casing then fire a round into J Mitchell’s eye…is that murder on my part or do they charge the ‘baby’?