I personally don't understand the whole thing of a fictional character in a video game where there is absolutely no romance anywhere having a preference. I don't care whether my character in a game like Borderlands is straight, gay, lesbian, or anything in between so long as I can pop the heads off my enemies.
Okay, but then leave it ambiguous and let people think of the character whatever they want. It doesn't matter if doomguy was gay, it matters that he slays
And then of the characters significant other is important? Like they complained about Spimer-Man 2, despite the playable characters not even being gay. We know that because we know who they are after.
It Takes Two. Me and my boyfriend played it. Beautiful game. Loved it. Plan to wait a few years and play it with him again. It's about a straight couple. I can't imagine how that game would work if we didn't know that. Like I guess we could keep stretching the argument to "Well they could be bi", I guess. We don't need to know that. But it kind of helps to know they're married to know the story. Otherwise it's gonna get weird with the kid involved.
We don't have to try and out progressive everyone for everything. A story can have a romance and we can see the romance and we can know who they're dating and we can know they're sexuality. None of this is the issue.
Your example would make sense in Doom. Sure. I've literally never seen anyone ask for it in doom. It's a terrible example because it's not that kind of game.
But for many games where the story is actually a big part, and not for games like Doom where the story really doesn't matter, it's fine. We can still celebrate love in really any shape or form(thats not harmful). If a game wants to avoid it, thats also fine. Once again, not arguing every game needs it. But if that's the story, that's the story, and it seems pointless to be angry that you know who a character is dating.
The movement for queer acceptance isn't for people to be hush hush and for us to make the closet bigger to invite straight people in. It's to get people out.
There's 2 problems with that
LGBT people deserve explicit representation as much as cishet people do, and cishet representation is all over media
Even if there's a LGBT coded character people will fight to death to say that they're actually very straight and that the degenerates are attacking them personally
Deserve how? I might be too simple to understand.
The ratio of representation is off, because the ratio of clientele is off.
When the demand grows, demand from actual paying customers, the representation will rise. Get more diverse people playing and creating games, and you'll get more diverse games.
Forcing representation has never helped any group, ever.
What makes you think it's forced and not LGBT creators creating or reinterpretating the characters?
What makes you think that LGBT people aren't consuming video games? The indie game scene is gay as fuck.
Why do I think that? Because that's how a capitalist market works.
Demand creates potential value. And no game developer would leave potential value untapped.
If there were a few really bestselling LGBT games, others would hop on the wagon, the market will get saturated for a while, and then it levels out a bit and some good concepts remain.
I don't necessarily disagree, but my question would be how to quantify the number of LGBT characters/games. If we assume LGBT people comprise about 10% of the population, we would expect about 10% of the content should reflect that perspective/experience. To argue that LGBT content should be actively encouraged and expanded, one would have to demonstrate some kind of data regarding the relative prevalence of LGBT content, no?
Or is that point moot, because you believe it's a desirable outcome to have an inflated media presence due to the fact that the LGBT community is a minority? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that either, but it's a very different argument than fighting for equal representation.
I will not rest until all the characters are gay and you will not stop me
In all seriousness, this is a non issue and idk why you're trying to do some weird gay ratio calculus
They deserve it, because they exist.
They aren't doing anything wrong by existing.
So developers should not have their creative freedom of using non-cis characters in their stoies taken away.
That's an interesting one because I actually always headcannon doom guy as gay ever since I was a kid and it was just being silly, always pictured him as a badass marine that loves sucking cock and he's fighting his way to hell because his bf died and was sent there.
Duke Nukem on the other hand was explicitly hetro which is fun, I would have also enjoyed in a different game a character like the duke who was aggressively homosexual or even better a good representation of a ego obsessed badass power bottom that has all sorts of fun quips like 'I'm here to suck cock and kick ass, and I already drained everyone's balls...' it would be silly, fun, and we could have lots of shots of his toned butt and stuff... But no, thirty years later and people are still scared of fun. Sad.
:::
Don't call them gamers, that gives them credence and insults actual gamers. Call them what they are: insecure babies. There are many, many insecure babies with the exact same opinion that do not play games. They are worse than the gamer bros, because they're out harassing people face to face.
The problem isn't games or gamers or gamer culture. It's ignorant bigots. (yes, I know it's still fun to make fun of gamergate crap, that's why I still upvoted the joke)
The meme is drawing a difference between lowercase g gamers, who are normal people who play video games, and capital G Gamers™, who are insecure manchildren who tend to make up a vocal majority among gaming communities. If you disagree, spend some time in a CoD lobby, or on /v/, or in real life with men who spend their time playing video games. There are a lot more Azs than you think.
I really don’t see it much and I’ve been online gaming since the 90s. I think drawing attention to it like this meme creates more problems than it fixes.
Just ignore any trolls you come across. Don’t engage. The silence is more painful to the bigots than whatever logic or empathy you try to throw at them.
Same here. It's most definitely gotten much better nowadays. There has definitely been a culture shift to where those kind of people stick to their own private discord calls now. The fact that almost every game has a report button for that kind of behavior has definitely helped.
"... or in real life around men who play video games."
Yea, that's me and all my friends, and we're not toxic bigots. Thank you for proving that this spreads prejudice and not awareness.
I shouldn't have generalized it. Some groups are actually good. Many, many groups are not.
Not that I don't deny it, but are these things people think/care about? It's a video game, I can be anything depending on the game I am playing. I don't get mad or wonder why I have to play as a woman in some, hell I was perfectly fine playing last of us 2 which was a woman and gay. I can be a spirit or an alien and that's why games are so great.
There are definitely people who think about this. I bet this guy would. For context, this poor man can't get immersed into Starfield because it asks him for his character's pronouns. =(
Picking pronouns is like picking height/weight/any other customization, just how you want to be seen or what text to put in the lines NPCs say to your character.
What an idiot.
I lived in the UK and that guy really comes out as a complete wanker, in so many ways.
It's an option for fks sake, it gives possibilities without forcing any choice or taking anything away.
I spent 50 hours in starfield and honestly I don't even remember the gender selector. I'm pretty sure it's just a little toggle in the character creator that switches from fella to lady to neither, which... Isn't that exactly the immersion this little guy wants? People referring to him as a him instead of a them? It's not exactly staring you in the face throughout the entire game. Makes me sad to think this rant probably got famous because this kid has people who value his opinion.
Wait, so does he want the game to force all players to be non binary? I'm not watching that video and giving him views.
The video is of a grown man losing his mind over an option that is not mandatory to set. It's there, but it doesn't pop up and you are not required to choose anything.
That reminds me of people saying that The Sims 4 has "gone woke" when introducing romantic preferences a few years ago.
That was completely stupid on so many aspects (including the fact that this meant that Sims used to be pan, so they were complaining about the possibility to make a straight character?)
The sims also used to be bugged so that it was more common for sims to get with sims of the same sex. If anything the preference actually made straight couples more common.
I grew up with plenty, I still know a few through mutual friends. Every opportunity to complain about how "woke" games are these days is taken. If an lgbtq+ character is in any way involved, they immediately change any reviews to 1 star, start massively shittalking the game, and continue to play it while bitching to everyone and anyone about it the whole time, and for weeks after they finish.
In games that let me choose, I play a woman most of the time. Been mocked for it. Cool Bro, you play your way I play mine. Only I don't spend my time thinking of ways to try and make you feel bad for it.
When you can play as a mining ship captain in the year 3300 , a green plumber turned Ghost-buster in a world with kidnapping turtles , and a dinosaur all on the same day, like you said, who gives a fuck
Are most video games protagonists straight? Cuz I have played way more games where the protagonist is mute and doesn't show sexual interest in anything at all.
Like... Is Gordon Freeman straight? Doom guy? Kirby? Capt. Olimar? Red? The Prince of All Cosmos? 🤔
I'd say that video games have the most asexual representation of all forms of media.
The prince of all cosmos will fuck anyone who wishes to fuck him.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
So many non-plumber people who were forced to play as plumber in Super Mario games. So many humans were forced to play as undead and orcs in WoW. Imagine the torture!!!
Oh, the game where you could choose between the furry-suiter plumber, or his occasionally crossdressing brother. Thats pretty diverse, right?
Well, Super Mario and WoW are opposites in how many options you have. Forsaken is one of the few I never played.
Although for fantasy games, some people don't want to play humans at all, because they're too relatable.
If you wanted everything in the video game to mimic your real life, just go outside. Video games have always existed as an escape, to put ourselves into a situation we'd normally never find ourselves in, to live a life we can't in the real world. If pretending to be gay for a few hours threatens your sexuality in a way that pretending to be a superhero for a few hours doesn't threaten your abilities, maybe that says more about your sexuality than it does about the game?
In a large portion of games I've played, there is no mention of the main character's sexuality at all.
But think about how much differently you'd play the game if you had that info readily available!
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The generic white muscled male, who can do anything the plot throws at him (with only a bit of fake struggle), and gets the girl at the end, is so damn overdone in every media. People talk about characters being Mary Sue when John Sue is way more common.
I want variations in my fiction! All kinds of genders, preferences, cultures, opinions, and species. The only rule I have is for the fiction never to encourage cruel acts IRL.
I'd say the avatar series in general is good at having diverse characters who are complex. I know Korra gets a lot of shit but I personally really liked that they tried to have an avatar actually suffering from mental illness.
That was a coincidence, I've just started watching it! Season 2 now. Love it so far. But Sokka don't deserve being such a buttmonkey, considering how often he is right.
Have you heard the good news of our lord and savior She-Ra (2018, Dreamworks and Netflix)? Or Daria (1997, MTV)?
I'm pretty sure it was only one in at least one of the Fallouts. But yeah, you are right, in NV one can choose both.
FO3 only had perks for heterosexuals. Which means it’s optimal to play as a women, since most enemies are men.
I don't understand people who complain about things like this.
Just don't play it. Easy as that. No conversation needed. Go play something else. There's only an infinite number of other options that you can spend your time on.
Totally fine.
The person you replied to didn't disagree though. If someone doesn't want to consume something, no problem. Ideally they just shut up about it.
I've been thinking a lot about this of late, mainly around TV series and movies.
(As a side note my own morality on all of this is comes from having lived my early adult years in The Netherlands: for me all sexual orientations are normal things, same as eye colors, height and so on, so there is no "right" or "wrong" sexual orientation, just like there is no "right" or "wrong" eye color, and sexual orientation is not even important outside a sexuality context)
I agree with you on that: show it as normal and people will start seeing it as normal rather than give some disproportionate importance to what is just another human characteristic that varies from person to person, which IMHO the best way for everybody to treat people equally independently of sexuality - only a nutter would treat somebody differently because of, say, eye color, and as I see it in the ideal world it would be just the same for sexual orientation.
That said, forcing displays of sexuality or sexual orientation isn't the way to go, IMHO, because it keeps the whole thing in this special pedestal and goes against normalization of it because it does not treat it as normal.
Unfortunatelly a lot of TV series and Movies of recent have forced displays of non-majority sexual orientation rather than just having it as just as normal as all else - say, some otherwise asexual character is made to explicitly be gay or some other non-majority sexual orientation for no actual story-related reason - although there are a few that just portray it as "just another bunch of people" (say, one of the couples in the neighbourhood happen to be gay, and they're living life like everybody else or somebody just happens to be attracted to somebody else of the same gender and it makes sense to show it as part of the story) which is how it is in real life, at least in civilized countries.
It all feels like the makers are preaching to us through this medium rather than the whole thing just being a representation of "normal life" (in the story setting) with all the range of normal characteristics that humans have (which naturally includes a range of sexual orientations).
(Mind you, I also think unecessary emphasis on the sexuality of straight characters is ridiculous: beyond what is relevant for the story in terms of how it affects how characters relate, I don't see why straight people's sexuality has to be highlighted).
I think we should strive to display the variety of the human condition without actually putting things like sexual orientation in a pedestal and treat it all as special (hence, by implication, not normal). It's not easy though, especially in countries like US where morality has been picked up by Politics and thinks which are absolutelly normal human characteristics have been fetishised beyond all logice and turned into battlefields.
All that said, in story-driven games and other media, were there is emphasys in human relations, you'll almost always end up with sexuality involved, if only because sexual attraction is a frequent drive for the how people relate and act around each other so it's a bit harder to have a normal range of human behaviour there without seeming to be forcing anything.
I honestly find it more awkward when you play a woman who has to have sex with a man. It seems to be the default that female protagonist are lesbian or just never fuck at all.
Assassin's Creed Odyssey was especially jarring. Cutscene, suddenly you've had a kid. What?
what games have you play as a gay protagonist
Dreamfall Chapters, one of the three main protagonists you play as is a gay man.
I was thinking the same thing, I imagine there's an indie game or two out there but the dude bros probably aren't playing those. Celeste came to mind but that's not a gay protagonist so much as a trans one.
Celeste is also one of those games where the story has nothing to do with the character's sexuality, and you wouldn't know if you didn't look it up.
In Hades on the other hand, Zagreus is as bi as... an ancient Greek demigod, I suppose. You can romance a female Fury who loves strappy leather and whips, or the literal God of Death. Or both at the same time, even.
However I feel like those who could have judged it may have given it a free pass because, well, it is ancient Greece.
Oh yeah, how could I forget Hades. Kind of everything goes with him, though (I'm grateful how Dusa ends, haha). But yes, it is ancient Greece.
I have to admit I saw it through with Dusa partly because he's the only person who's nice to her at all, and partly because I was really hoping for a gratuitous pun about him "wanting to get some head" preferably delivered by Meg, lol
First one as well. Ellie is gay. Confirmed in the dlc for the first game, the last of us 2 has Ellie in a relationship with a bi woman and there's also a trans character in it.
Idgaf about the orientation typically. But if it's gonna be explicitly called out, then it better be significant to the character's identity, otherwise it's just meaningless attempts for the developer to ingratiate themselves with the LGBTQ without so much as providing a representative character of substance. I can't think of any examples of these off the top of my head, but there were some games and/or shows where I lost interest because every character was whatever different flavor of sexual and I was just like "this contributes nothing at all to the story, who tf cares about that shit?"
then it better be significant to the character’s identity
I was saying the same thing a few years back, but now I don't even think it's the case. I think it's more like "if it's significant to the character's identity or the game's world, make it make sense".
For example, Cyberpunk's Judy was a great character. You could have several full playthroughs, and wouldn't know she was into girls if you didn't try to jump her bones that one time. You could maybe infer she was more than just good friends with that other character. And that's how it should be. I mean in normal conversation it comes up very rarely who are you into sexually.
All I'm saying, it's not natural in real life to know who everyone would do in real life, and it's not natural in a video game.
Eh, I've seen plenty of attempts of character having a heterosexual tendencies while there is no need for them. Like tons of Disney movies.
If people don't get bothered by those, then they shouldn't be bothered by LGBTQ+ characters having their sexuality shoehorned in.
In the end, a character is a character. And there are people acting extremely flamboyant in the real world, so why wouldn't they be allowed to exist in media?
I have a story plan I'm tossing around, and trying to decide something around this. It's nothing so complex - basically, there's a nation that has historically been extremely homophobic, and as a result, a mid-sized cabal of defectors that the book follows are gay. One of those situations where an observer (in or out of universe) could tiredly claim it doesn't matter to them, except that it apparently does matter to this fictional nation.
That's the perfect counterexample, because their sexual identity is directly tied to their motive in the story's conflict. That is the kind of writing that deserves respect.
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Recommend looking into "mirrors, windows, and sliding glass doors" by Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop for academic discussion on it. TL;DR it's good for kids.
The industry has long invented a near-perfect solution:
MAKE IT TWO LESBIAN GIRLS
- They are gay
- They are loved by straights
- Straight girls who see it invariably turn bi
- Yay!
The only side still uncovered is gay men, that's all.
On the realm of porn games at least, gay men are well served (provided you are also a furry).
I can identify with Mario much better than these new “woke” characters because he has no discernible personality and nothing he does ever makes any difference to his world.
B.bbbb-but if I see it then I might catch The Gay! We all know that the moment you see or hear anything even remotely related to lgbtq+, you checks flash cards immediately burst into dance while singing Queen and waving a pride flag.
I play a woman named Vala (Mal Doran) or Adria in 99% of the games that let me customize. Because every other game I've played is always a generic male character doing generic action things.
"I've seen that movie played that game before" - Jordan Peele, if he were a gamer.
if i'm exposed to lgbt content i might be forced to confront that my repressed attraction to hairy man ass actually means i'm gay, and that's much too frightening a prospect