Open link in next tab
https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2024/07/03/nx-s1-4986385/trans-kids-health-bans-gender-affirming-care
https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2024/07/03/nx-s1-4986385/trans-kids-health-bans-gender-affirming-care
I really hate trans health care. It’s just health care. If they ain’t hurting anyone, leave them alone. Jesus.
We don’t trust people under 21 with alcohol that affects them for a few hours. Letting kids make life altering decisions is irresponsible.
Doctors do shit for money.
They'll recommend whatever the parent asks for.
I want universal healthcare and even UBI, but this shit is just child abuse.
Edit to add: if you want to cut your dick off and call yourself a girl as an adult, I don't care. If you convince your kids doctor to chemically castrate them, you should go to jail.
Doctors used to recommend all kinds of stupid shit. Lobotomies, literally transfusing COWS MILK into people because it's white and will obviously make white blood cells.
They're wrong about this, too.
Are you talking about medically delaying puberty? You're aware that's done with cis kids more often than trans kids, right?
I don't see how it's child abuse when prescribed to a minor with gender dysphoria, but totally fine when it's a minor with precocious puberty.
For many trans people, having the option to postpone irrevocable changes brought on by puberty has massive mental health benefits for the rest of their lives. I feel like you have to be pretty jaded and dismissive to just categorize that as abuse out of hand.
Doctors do shit for money.
Yeah, it's all fucked, man.
Doctors do stuff like appendectomies—literally cutting out a part of you.
Doctors made my grandpa go through chemo. That was before he co-in-ci-dentally lost all his hair.
Doctors will literally take out all of your blood and give you someone else's blood. For why? They're not keeping it. It's not like they're vampires. Literally, for what reason?
I know the reason.
It's MONEY.
You don't gotta do all that shit. I drink my own urine and I've never been healthier.
Good God!
You've completely changed my mind!
I'm putting my kids on puberty blockers right now!
Nice edit.
You told me to huff paint
If you're going to implicitly compare something like doctors abusing peoples trust to push things like opiates onto the population as a whole to providing specialized healthcare to a percent of a percent of the population, you've already succumb to brain rot and there will be no productive conversation to be had. Cheers, man.
I still stand by my original comment, and had no intentions of hiding it, more I figured the mods wouldn't like it.
Additionally, I said more paint, a small but significant distinction.
No one is ignoring it. The problem is that the bigots who are rightfully called bigots think they're doctors and that people should listen to their medical advice rather than their doctor's medical advice.
I assume you don't have a medical degree, but please correct me on that.
the number of transitioned people who were harmed by the process is significantly less than the people who feel it improved their life significantly. there are failures across all medical procedures, you don't see people denying appendectomies to people because a few people died? get over yourself and let people live their best life
We're talking about kids here. Kids brains aren't fully developed yet. That's why we don't let them drive, drink, smoke, or consent to sex. If they want a sex change, just let them do it when they become an adult
If they want a sex change, just let them do it when they become an adult
That's already how it works. You're angry at a thing that doesn't exist and that nobody is suggesting.
Yes, that's correct. They need puberty blockers, so they can make the decision when their old enough instead of having that decision forced upon them.
This regurgitated propaganda brought to you by the same minds who fabricated "partial birth abortions".
That’s why we don’t let them drive, drink, smoke, or consent to sex.
You were never a teenager, were you?
Age to drive: 16? Still a teenager Age of consent: varies by state but is generally around 15 or so. Smoke: gross. But I never heard of a teenager having much problems acquiring tobacco, alcohol, or weed.
Oh look, a conservative who knows nothing about the thing they're loudly bitching about.
Trans healthcare is FAR more than genital surgery, in fact thats a pretty small segment overall. Especially with teens were largely talking about therapy more than anything, and OCCASIONALLY easily reversible treatments like hormone blockers. NOBODY is out here slicing up children's genitals (except the circumcision folk of course, which y'all are conveniently silent about)
That is exactly what gender affirming care for youths is. Its basically staving off puberty until they are old enough to determine that they really do want medical transisition.
What if stopping those hormones also pauses development that might change what they believe they are? There was a recent study that shows there is a sizeable chunk of youths that decrease their gender non-contentedness as they age. There is also a group that it grows with age. It would be an interesting study to see if these numbers stay the same with puberty blockers. If zero kids on puberty blockers decide not to transition that would be pretty telling.
there are plenty of articles about regrets and resources about detransition, those who get shouted down usually try to use ridiculously low regret rates as reasoning to limit access to healthcare. marriage has a 43% regret rate, why isn't your energy spent there instead?
Have any decent sources on that regret or harm done that aren't debunked by myriad other reputable sources? Scientists research all kinds of unpopular things, so it should be easy to show.
I've seen plenty of them get interviewed. Anyone saying they don't exist just aren't being honest with you
I have seen so many talks by and interviews with people who claim to have deconverted from evolution. They all claim pretty similar stuff. Sometimes eeriely similar. Often they talk about being angry. Then they'll go on to claim that they directed that anger at god, that that was why they bought into the 'lie' of evolution and that all atheiests are just like they were, angry at god. It's funny how closely what they talk about resembles the strawman young earth creationists believe about atheiests and secularists and all those things those people wish where true about us.
I find this very strange because with such large numbers involved on both sides there should , purely statisticly speaking, be a reasonably decent pool of converts each way just down to chance and circumstance. Yet they keep resorting to pushing people who don't remotely understand the mindset of the groups they claimed they once were part of. Despite that they keep troting them out like they're a prized bull.
I have seen incel channels full of interviews with random people on the street where they were pushing a narrative of rampent misandry. Interview after interview of women chippily admiting to very hateful stuff about men on camera without an ounce of shame. But of course they wouldn't have shame they were answering very carefully crafted hypotheticals that they thought were asked in good faith. A few decptive edits to remove their reasonable response's context and all of a sudden the incels have justification for their anger. The interviews get shared around and around by people who have already decided where they stand but want vindication for their bigotry. 'Look how common that hate for men is' they cry, clearly showing how rarely they talk to other people.
I have listened to talks by people who have claimed to have seen the edge of the world or have claimed to have the alien corpses kept at Roswell. I have read statements by someone claiming that they went to a cancer ward, convinced the doctors to inject all the patients with their essential oils which cured everyone of their cancer. I have listened to interviews with anti vaxers claiming to have personally seen wards full of 'vaccine causalties' that's being covered up somehow.
Have some people switched from accepting evolution to young earth creationism? It has to have happened at some point. Are their some misandrists out there? There has to be. Are they anywhere near as prevelant as either of those two groups pretend? Absolutely not. They have a vested interest in pushing the idea that both those things are far more common than they are. Interviews are just ancedotes and no matter how many ancedotes you horde they will never coalesce into evidence.
Do some transgender people regret transitioning? It has to have happened at least once just based off numbers alone Are there a lot? No there aren't. To an actually surprising degree. But that surprising degree shouldn't actually be that surprsining; You see before all the irreversible medical procedures there is a bunch of indepth psychological evaluations aimed at filtering out people who would regret it later. We've actually gotten pretty good at that. Not that it's that hard there tends to be some strong and obvious indicators. So I will pose a hypothetical of my own; Even if there was a lot of regretful trangender folk is the answer to ban trans health care altogether or invest in better evaluations and better understanding of it?
Of course there are individuals who regret it. There are individuals who regret any decision one can possibly make in life. But it's worth noting that, statistically, the regret rates for gender affirming surgeries are among the lowest of any medical intervention done anywhere in the world, by a large margin.
I know you've heard their stories, because there are people with very specific agendas who are dedicated to weaponizing their stories. But it's useful to remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
At risk of getting myself banned (I guess a litmus test for myself to see how zealous the mods are here), one of the pioneering studies done in the field ended in suicide.
The thing is, this story you mention isn't a situation of trans health care; this is a situation of actual child abuse. The parents literally forced a gender identity onto their child who seems to have otherwise been cisgender. It's not all that different from what conservative parents will often do with their actual trans children.
If anything, this story shows the harms that come by denying gender-affirming care to children. That child was not a girl, and denying him of his identity caused irreparable damage. All because the parents were too scared to tell their child that the doctor fucked up the circumcision.
This is not a pioneering study done in the field, jfc. This isn't a transgender story, this is a story of abuse. Did you read the article? Did you do any research into this at all? Did you at least read his biography? Because I have. To summarize: David was born a cisgendered man whose doctors botched his circumcision so badly he needed reconstructive surgery. His parents consulted a sexologist they saw on TV (the now disgraced John Money), and he convinced the parents to give David a sex change. Not for David's benefit mind you, but because the sexologist wanted to make a name for himself based on his theories on gender being easily malleable (and he briefly did, until the truth came out). A lot of gross messed up stuff happened, like the sexologist would make David roleplay sex with his twin brother I shit you not. He would make them watch hetero porn with him. And then he would make them get into sexual positions and make them playact sex together. He also took photos (and I think video) of these two children simulating sex.
So to summarize real quick, the pedo-sexologist who committed acts of psychological, medical and sexual abuse on these children, is your "pioneering study" guy. Let me guess, you thought that John Money was a success and that he proved his theory that gender identity is easily manipulated? I've seen this exact anti-trans disinformation twist before, along with thinking David was trans (he wasn't) and pointing out David's "trans suicide". You should be more suspicious of your sources for information. By the 90s we already knew John Moneys work with David was useless. And the disinfo machine loves to leave out a very important fact: Davids brother Brian killed himself two years before David took his own life. I guess the suicide of the depressed cisgendered brother who never transitioned muddies the trans-suicide agenda being pushed.
Whenever I see his story pop up, the terfs (and the unfortunately misinformed) end up erroneously thinking this is a story of a trans kid who killed themself. Disinfo will say this story proves that you can manipulate someone into believing they're a different gender then they know themselves to be. And look! Disinfo swears theres reputable science papers by John Money to back this up! ha.
David was a straight, cisgendered man. His story is not a transgender story. It's many other things; a story of child abuse, medical abuse, psychological abuse and sexual abuse. It's the a story of a cisgendered person experiencing gender dysphoria and not understanding why. To me, what his story really shows us is that a persons personal sense of gender is an innate and pervasive thing; a complex combination of mind and body that persists; no matter how much abuse you throw at it. Because even though David was raised to believe he was a woman; had his role as a woman constantly being reinforced by his entire world, had everyone in his life telling him he was a woman, he still knew he was a man and deeply struggled to understand why he felt that way.
further reading/citations:
the 1997 medical paper & review of Moneys work that, along with Davids testimony, began to shed light on this: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html
Davids biography: As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised As A Girl by John Colapinto
a more detailed and damning article from 2017: https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/david-reimer-and-john-money-gender-reassignment-controversy-johnjoan-case
a very disturbing amount of detail of what happened for those that can handle it: https://www.simplypsychology.org/david-reimer.html
and finally wikipedia for those that hate fancy links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sex_reassignment_of_David_Reimer
Can you imagine the harm that would have happened if he just so happened to be transgender?
An experiment was performed on an unknowing child by raising him as a girl, following his botched circumcision, with disastrous results.
How is this relevant to the issue of transgender health care? Sounds like a pretty good study of why infant circumcision is bad but it doesn't seem like an example of trans health care causing harm.
Its is relevant in a bass ackwards way. It shows that gender is innate and not a social construct based on how you were raised. Of course the logical conclusion is the exact opposite of what the OP guy believes.
The bigots are the people that refuse to leave people who aren't hurting anyone alone.
Your "concerns" are bullshit, only meant to justify your interference in other people's lives.
Conservatism needs to be extinguished wholesale. There is no such thing as a "good conservative" alive today. They are cancer.
I agree, but I have a sneaking suspicion that we see the opposite happen in real time. Conservatism won't just go away. It seems to be on course to take over everything pretty soon. If you're anyone that the right doesn't like, I would seriously start thinking about how to get out of here soon.
it's taking over a lot of places all over the world. "cancer" is right, and it's metastasizing.
i have many downvoted comments, i don't do edits on them unless there's clarification or a point to be made. this was about the point i was making. got automodded though for civility. i guess "pussies" is too much for lemmy to handle.
Terf Island: we already fucked off so hard we aren't even in the EU anymore. That's the maximum amount of fuck off we can manage
I kind of get it, but maybe I also don’t fully understand what trans health care for kids is all about. (I’m not against it btw)
You can’t get a tattoo before you’re 18 because that’s (somewhat) permanent. Does trans care interfere with puberty in a way that’s irreversible?
I also realize what I just typed is probably comparing apples to oranges… maybe the people passing these laws are thinking the kids will grow up and change their minds - does that actually happen? (I doubt it, but just asking because I don’t know.)
Kids under 18 aren't legally able to start hormone therapy or get surgery. The most they can get is puberty blockers and therapy. Ppl who complain about Trans kids changing their mind are full of shit. Everything a minor receives as Trans health care is reasonable, safe, and reversible
Puberty itself is full of irreversible changes. Having puberty blockers available to trans youth is important to prevent their bodies from making changes they don’t want, and is reversible later.
Yeah, you basically nailed it. Trans healthcare for minors , if such a term would need defining would be the reduction of of permanent changes brought on by puberty. Generally, adults who started taking puberty blockers as a kid can either stop taking them later and have a (very likely mostly) normal puberty, or they can start pursuing more permanent changes, like hormone therapy.
A good chunk of the 'debate' is trying to separate normal people into 'not trans' and 'lesser.' What we want is really just comprehensive healthcare- same rules for everyone.
To your last point: trans-affirming surgeries have a vastly lower regret rate than most cosmetic surgeries, which is a very good reason to allow trans adults to choose to pursue them. The people passing these laws want a lower class. at no point does "protect trans children" ever come up in earnest.
That's what I was wondering too and maybe there needs to be more information on what exactly trans care for kids is all about. I honestly have no clue.
Maybe that's a good reason why this shouldn't be a political issue but a medical one decided by experts in the field instead of politicians with influence from the general public.
No reasoning should be necessary to keep government/politicians/anyone else out of people’s private lives - including (and ESPECIALLY) health care decisions.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Cant stop the laws, but there are people helping to get individuals the treatment they need. Check out elevatedaccess.org
So most of these bills ban pretty much all medical interventions for anyone under 18. Puberty blockers, hormone replacement therapy, surgery, the whole nine. Some go further and are trying to ban it for anyone under 26. You could theoretically still get counseling but you wouldn't be able to actually do anything.
And yeah sure, on its face that might seem reasonable. Wouldn't want impulsive teens rushing into big irreversible medical changes on a whim right? But those safeguards already exist. You can't just walk into a gender clinic as a 10 year old boy, say the magic words "I'm actually a girl," and walk out with an appointment for bottom surgery and a prescription for titty skittles. It takes long term counseling, social transition steps like trying out a new name and pronouns, wearing clothing that aligns with your gender, etc.
In reality that hypothetical 10 year old boy walking into the clinic is going to get extensive counseling. From that counseling he might try out using a different name, she/her pronouns, or dressing in more feminine clothing. She then might get prescribed puberty blockers here to make sure she has time to do all of this and be sure of herself without being forced into male puberty. A few years go by and last statistics I saw something like 2% of people at this point say, "No I think I actually am a boy," and they go through that slightly delayed puberty. But almost all progress to HRT and later surgery.
Do some people later truly regret their transitions and try to go back? Of course they do. But realistically, transition already has basically the lowest regret rate of any medical procedure out there. A higher percentage of people regret getting something like a hip or knee replacement surgery than regret transition.
Puberty already forces your body through permanent changes that can range from easy, to nearly impossible to reverse. That's why puberty blockers are so important. Imagine if as a young cis boy through some rare medical issue you start going through female puberty. But you're a boy! You know you are. You've got a penis and everything.
But now you're growing breasts. Like big enough that you can't really hide them. Big enough that they get in the way, they're heavy, and you have to wear a bra otherwise they hurt like hell. The other boys in your grade stare at you or bully you because you're a boy but you've got bigger tits than a lot of the girls in your grade. Soon everyone starts mistaking you for a girl. Guys start hitting on you even though you're a guy and you're attracted to girls. A lot of the girls aren't interested in you because they're attracted to more... Traditional looking guys. You get told that you should just accept it. After all you look just like a girl. But you're not a girl damnit. You're a boy. This wasn't supposed to happen. Now imagine they tell you they can't do anything about it until you turn 18... Or maybe 26. Sounds terrible right?
I think something a lot of people don't realize is that transitioning is not the end of the story. You still have to live in the same exact shitty world, with all the same hate, all the same bigotry, all the hostility. And if your post-op presentation doesn't pass the stringent "do you look cis enough" high standards of society? Welp, your life is now on extra hard mode. All the people you know that are already transphobic will probably still be just as transphobic after you transition, if not worse. People de-transition for a lot of reasons but I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason is the pressure to present as either their pre-transitioned selves or to present as a perfect ideal of gender that no one can clock.
My understanding is the majority of detransition occurs due to financial reasons. So basically "I can't afford my HRT anymore," or "I can't afford top surgery right now so I'll go back to presenting as a woman," or what have you. Then once the financial issue is gone a lot of those resume transition.
Full on "I thought I was trans but I'm actually not" detransition seems to be pretty rare. Almost like the current standard of care does a pretty good job at weeding out the people for whom transition isn't the best treatment option. But to the conservatives who've decided this is their new culture war front if literally a single person ever regrets their transition, that's enough to ban it for everyone.
That's such a good point, you're not free from the financial burdens post-op. I'm just a freshly cracked egg so I'm still learning. I was going off of the convos I've had about the post-op life with friends and strangers in trans forums. A lot of the discussions around de-transitioning focused on the pressure to "be the person we knew" from people in their lives and also the pressure to reach a nigh impossible ideal of gender from society in general.
I would not blame anyone for going back into the closet because they can't take the constant abuse. It's really sad that they feel the need to do that, but I do not blame them at all. This society we live in is horrible to so many people.
One of the stories I heard of someone who detransitioned was that they were in collage when they decided to transition. They lived in the dorms and well word very quickly got around. A group was organised including all of their friends and classmates who would take turns standing outside their dormroom door louding praying for them to detransition. The collage staff were no help, they'd helped organise the effort in the first place. After several months of this they gave in and went back into the closet.
Sure, that seems reasonable to keep away from minors. Like, I couldn't commit to whether or not I was a "music person" at that age;
People need to understand that not receiving hormone treatment is also a commitment to a gender—one that you don't identify with. From that perspective, it's plain stupid to deny children the treatment they need.
To stay with your example, let's say you are 14, interested in music, but you hate sports. You might not be able to commit to being a "music person" at that age, but it would still be the obvious choice to further explore your interest in music rather than forcing yourself into being sports person instead.
And sure, there are blockers to delay some developments, but I feel like a lot of people don't recognize that this is not a choice between A and nothing, but between A and B, and one path permanently locks you out of the other.