https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/21/what-dink-dual-income-no-kids-trend-means-for-your-money.html
A 2021 study by the Census revealed that childless adults age 55 and older had a median net worth of $153,900 compared to $130,400 for biological parents.
people used to look at children as a way to pass on knowledge, culture, adn ofc, genes
nowadays our genes dont matter so much unless youre a super athlete or mega genius, so passing them on seems frivolous to many. then theres the interent, which houses knowledge on damn near everything. so i guess it makes sense why the desire to carry on would be outweighed at this point
I was gonna say. the phrase "double income no kids" arose in the 90s when "single income + kids" was a possibility.
Honestly at this point there are only a handful of headlines that cover about 90% of news stories:
-Young people 'choose' lifestyle choice that was forced upon them by external conditions.
-Young people are 'killing industry' that they are not paid enough to even dream of participating in.
-Rich person/people found guilty of or admitted to enormous crime will go unpunished.
-Someones totally unqualified opinion on a subject that we're reporting as news because they're rich.
-World ending, shareholders rejoice.
Rich people doing stupid things with money because they aren’t being taxed like they should so that the economy actually can survive.
FDR taxes the shit out of rich people so they had to re-invest the money into their companies or lose it to the government. That built a strong, industrialized America with good paying jobs. Ronald Reagan reversed everything and we've been in decline ever since. Still a huge number of poor people continue to vote Republican, against their country, and their own interests.
oh trust me, the right wing would LOVE to take your ability to choose to procreate out of your hands completely. Abortion for sure, but also the the night after pill and even birth control. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/04/birth-control-is-next-republicans-abortion.html
I really wish that this was just a joke. Those fascists will take anything they can to make themselves feel powerful.
"Why aren't the poors having more workers??" - the same people continually reducing the status and security of the working class
If given the option or the opportunity ... the wealthy wouldn't mind the reintroduction of slavery and outright ownership of people
Choosing to not have children is becoming more and more accepted among younger people for a long variety of reasons, among them being climate and economy as well as "not going to ruin my body" and "well i just dont like children"
You pretty much nailed the entire reason for most of my friends and myself (mid to late 20s). We can all afford kids, but it's just not something anyone desires except for one or two people in our group of 14.
Most of us don't even dislike kids, but the thought of having our own is undesirable.
I struggle to understand how people can get over how terrifying and unpleasant having children is. Kids can be okay, except when they aren't, and that's often.
That is simply not true. Kids can teach you many things about yourself that you never knew you cared about. They open a part of this life you would never see otherwise. They are this thing that loves you no matter what and if you are a good parent you do not take that for granted and give it all you got.
I didn't want any for many years for all the same reasons as many here. And it changed. And it's great, for me. But if you choose not to or have doubts, don't. It's horrible for the kid.
Another thing that can happen is you can grow up able to see clearly that you're an obligation for your parents they didn't want. You feel like they're always angry with you even if you're perfectly behaved. Then they tell you they gave up their entire life for you, clearly bitter and regretting that.
There is a non zero chance I could make my kids feel this awful for existing, and that already would be a non starter. But on top of that there's like 14 other reasons.
I'm not sure what you're protesting about what I wrote. I didn't attack you. I just don't understand how people ignore all the anxiety they will certainly have with kids in addition to all the other additional anxiety if anything about the kid goes especially wrong.
Well this comment at least tells us something about how you might have felt when younger. I did not always see eye to eye with my parents but in the end, I felt like they loved me and the amount of happiness I experienced as a kid is almost immeasurable. I'm on team #nokids, but for a lot of people, the love they can experience through children is unique and powerful, and understanding that is not that much of a struggle for me.
That's the thing, having kids is a unique experience just like not having kids is a unique experience. Being an individual is fundamentally a unique experience. Yet this whole conversation gets wrapped up in normative language like this which clearly expresses social preference for the former.
When I hear someone say that having children changed them in a profound way, I don't hear anything other than "climbing a mountain is profound" or "laying on the couch all day is profound." There is uniqueness and profound cumulative existence baked into to every heartbeat, but apparently a lot of people have trouble with this simple idea.
My comment mentioned nothing about the positive sides to kids. They obviously exist. The point I was making is I am surprised so many people opt into the most anxiety I think you probably can opt into.
Good. It would be horrible if a kid was brought into this world just because they think it's the right thing to do. It's not for everyone.
They are this thing that loves you no matter what and if you are a good parent you do not take that for granted and give it all you got.
Even if that were true, it makes parents sound like they have a god complex that needs to be validated.
You don't know what you are talking about lol
We didn't impose it on them. It's biology. Maybe get some therapy. I'm going to block you. You got a whole cat in a bag vibe that isn't my jam.
Biology is bullshit. It's not an excuse. It's like saying segregation and greed are biology. Like rape and murder are. Negative things exist in our biology and creating other humans for one's need to get high off of them is one of them i assure you will be widely recognized within the next decade.
It's because your brain gets flooded with parenting hormones which give you superhuman delusion tolerance for the first few years. That's why I'm always skeptical when people are like "it's hard but I can't describe how wonderful it is!"
Sure Ryan, that's totally not just the brain worms talking, I'll stick with dogs for my nurturing serotonin and I refuse to feel bad about it.
You shouldn't feel bad about it. Do what you think is right for yourself. On the other hand, you should recognize that you have no idea what being a parent is actually like, which in a sense means that you don't actually know what you are talking about. It's life-changing and unlike any imagining.
It's a life-changing experience that is unlike any imagining. I am a much better person for having had a kid. That said, I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant, which is just to say that it's definitely not for everyone.
I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant,
That is absolutely baffling to me. I mean changing the first diaper alone would kill both those "Nevers" for me. Then I would imagine 20 times every day for at least 10 years there would be those feelings. Then when they drive. Then go to college. I mean do you ever worry about anything at all?
I feel the same way, but had already had my children at 21 & 23 before I got the chance to understand the options. I love them and don't regret my choices, but I would have certainly had a life with different focuses.
I'm older, but the majority of people I know that had kids were surprised by the first.
The best thing you can do for the environment as a person in a western country is not have kids.
That's not the only reason we aren't having any, but it's certainly a factor.
Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Then again I have no problem polluting and using up 2 hours of shower water and take tons of baths because others who never cared are doing it. So if you're being selfish, sure, go ahead.
Neither, really. More like are choosing not to go into child debt. Having a kid costs more than having a house. Good for this generation for taking control of their reproductive decisions.
Was just going to say that.
Of all my younger siblings/cousins/etc, the only ones with kids were accidents. Only I chose to purposely start a family, and that took me a decade of saving.
Naw i think we'd get along great! I was semi-quoting Ms Trunchbull from the 1996 movie Matilda.
Gee Mr Wizard, why don't millennials want babies instead of avocado toast?
they arent choosing it.
They are being forced into it because its the only fucking way to have a chance at NOT being homeless and crippled.
Oh no, make no mistake, I chose it.
However, even if I wanted them, how the fuck does one even afford them?
Don't get it twisted, many of us absolutely chose to not have kids because we don't want them.
You can both be right, you know. Many of us also agree with what this person was saying.
I used to want kids. I will refuse to have kids unless I can afford them, and until I can GUARANTEE that their human rights won't be stripped away by the whims of stupid people who are completely disconnected from reality. I won't bring a new life into a world that's rushing towards climate oblivion, either.
I'll sterilize myself before I'm ever forced to have kids.
And there is part of the problem in the eyes of those with power.... That thought that you have a choice in sterility. A choice to not have kids didn't used to exist and you attempting to keep warm and have some pleasure basically guaranteed that you would have more eventually. So that must be stripped in order for you to continue the cycle of having kids not by choice and add to the population that gets fucked over.
Agreed. These people are trying to leverage something many of us absolutely aren't interested in to push for necessities such as fixing inflation, universal Healthcare etc. Except that if those things were fixed it wouldn't change the birth rate much at all. That's why Republicans are forcing people to be breeding machines. Educated well off people know better to engage in an activity that is detrimental to their physical and mental health. And making a human means you're responsible for them until you or they die. That's the biggest mistake people make. They make a human, then wash their hands of then.
No one should have a child unless they are willing to commit themselves to that child 100%. I have a daughter. She's the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. And if anyone willingly took substantially less effort than I've taken to try to raise her in a safe, healthy environment and prepare her for her future as best I can- fuck you, you should have worn a fucking condom.
No child deserves to be neglected.
Interesting/sad how simply due to circumstance, somebody’s absolute honest best at max effort/sacrifice can still be raising a kid in a favela.
Consider the top vs. bottom billion: I expect the latter half’s kids would appear neglected if they were suddenly transported to the former’s McMansions overnight.
That’s not to say the kisses and the love are any less, but the clothes and the education and the soccer practice? I’d bet certainly.
I hope within by two generations from now this kind of pondering is only possible from a historical perspective. The kids deserve it.
I also have kids and love them dearly. However I think that it is important that parents have their own interests and time for their own lives, independent of their roles as parents. Of course with very young children there's barely time to sleep, but humans grow up quickly! 😄
I'm not suggesting otherwise. You can put the effort in to do all that I said and still have time to do your own thing.
I make ~$200K a year. As a father of 5, I wish I had not had a single one. I love them, but the stress of taking care of them coupled with the future of the planet makes me regret life choices.
I find it interesting that you cite the stress of raising them as a factor in your regret. Could you not tell that was going to be an issue around the time number three came around? That's not intended to be accusatory btw. I'm genuinely curious.
Oh hell yeah I'll never pass up an opportunity to shit on a language i don't use. It's the programmer way!
Signed, a PHP developer. <3
Not OP, but I've found that the older they get, the harder it gets. Schedules are all over the place, and they start advocating for things they want to do that don't fit neatly into the family calendar (vs when you were able to choose everything for them).
Expectations for parents have also skyrocketed. Your "best" now is far different than what the 1990s parents were expected to deliver. And, of course, you love them and want to provide them everything they need, so you bend over backwards to make it happen. That's what society demands, too.
I don't have as many kids as OP, and I can't fucking imagine wrangling five in the current world...😳
Maybe they meant it like “there is now stress for helping pay for college at a higher cost than when they were born.” Or being stressed knowing if the family lives in a HCOL area (typically where those salaries are offered), they might not be able to live there as well with the current trends in housing costs.
TLDR: things have changed for the worst for newer generations, parents can see it.
God, I wish I was smart enough to lie this well. No. I like sex, and hate condoms. I'm the dum.
I do too, which is why I was on the table getting a vasectomy before the vernix was dry on our one and only kid lol
Kids are inherently stressful. They're like little abusive people who you can't legally defend yourself against.
My wife finally are in a point where we can afford to have children, but we are kinda getting a bit old to have children. So we are also choosing the dual income no children life style,
But a big part of that is our age and how long it took to get to a comfortable place financially.
Now we want to focus on saving for a house and retirement.
It's the acronym for the phrase in the article - "Dual Income No Kids". Might have been more obvious if it were in caps.
I'm one right here. Tired? Sure, but they fill our lives. This was 100% the right decision for us, but everyone has their own set of goals
I don't know about this commenter, but don't forget that everyone is different.
Hypothetically, you might be good having kids in you thirties, but one or both of them might have a condition or disability that gets worse with time.
I know people in their early 20s with bad arthritis, and a lot of people want to be able to chase after and run around with their kids. Sometimes chronic pain/illness can remove that option.
Oh for sure, I dont think everyone should or can be parents. Im just saying its not necessarily a death knell for parenthood in that age range
Also mid-30s, and it took us this long.
We are going to give it a shot, but no way are we going into debt over it. If we can’t get pregnant at this age with minor medical intervention then we are going to adopt. I have colleagues who have spent >$100K on multiple rounds of IVF. I honestly think that’s insanity for the sake of having generic children. My genes aren’t that important.
“When we advise clients about having children, we honestly don’t even give them the full real details and the real numbers,” said Shannon McLay, founder of The Financial Gym. “It’s one of those things if you see the math of it all, it might make you decide to not have children.”
what a whole generation of pulling the ladder up behind you will do to a society. Party of family values doing everything they possibly can to destroy familes.
In other words, "we trick our clients who paid us for financial advice into having children they can't afford".
Holy shit, what an incredibly unethical thing to do. "We're lying to the people who come to us for advice because if we told the truth they might make a decision we don't like."
Because we can't afford our own lives, how are we supposed to support children? Not even taking into account for how absolutely fucked we all are. Our planet is dying, how can we bring children into this world if it's all falling apart?
I mean a lot of us wouldn't even if it they paid us. We finally live in a time where we know better and can choose not to be barefoot and pregnant (unless you live in tx).
My parents set the house on fire, I'm looking for a fire extinguisher, and some newsie wants me to know that if I just had kids they could grow up to be firemen.
I don't think that's what is being said at all. I think what's being said is that if the future belongs to the next generation, it's in all of our interests that intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future. In other words, we all have a stake in the coming generations and simply opting out because we find it somehow inconvenient is not a moral decision.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn't necessarily fault those who do choose to have them. Again, if the children are our future, it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents.
intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future
That would ring truer if not spoken by an idiot who dominates the present. CNBC is replete with these know-nothing goobers, and even assuming I bought in to their selective breeding strategy for repopulation after the apocolypse, I sure as hell wouldn't endorse their target audience to handle the job.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn’t necessarily fault those who do choose to have them
That's fair on its face, but more as a practical consequence. At some point you have to ask, what would we even do about people having more kids than we'd like. And the answers - from trying to shame them by screaming at them to doing old school Nixon-era sterilizations of whole populations - are incredibly grim and gross.
it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents
If you want responsible, intelligent, and well-educated parents tomorrow, you're going to need to house and feed and educate and generally provide quality of life for kids today.
But we hate kids today. That's why, despite the economy growing at a steady clip for the last 20 years, we're at record high child poverty with 1 in 5 kids living in poverty in the 40 richest countries. The current generation does not want to pay money to see them grow up health, strong, and capable.
Given the poor treatment they've received, why would Zoomers be expected to have lots of kids of their own? They have known nothing but declining standards of living, with a promise of worse to come.
What an asshole thing to do. Hey we had fun using up this planet now here, we made you to clean up up the mess. That's what AI and robots are for. Not humans.
Man, fuck them negative votes. Humans do best understand pressure. We need humans to solve this crisis because, humans manufactured it. We make more humans and roll the dice.
Humans do best understand pressure.
Pure selection bias. You primarily hear about the humans who did well under pressure, because the humans that didn't do well rarely make for popular reading material.
We make more humans and roll the dice.
I would argue that by the time a child born today is old enough to participate in the solution, the dice will have already landed. Either they'll be living in a city/country/planet whose prior generation has positioned themselves to preserver, or they'll be dying in one whose prior generation didn't.
Having more kids won't solve the problem. We've got 8B people already. One more or less won't tip the scales.
Not having more kids won't solve the problem, either. So no point in getting mad at folks who did choose to have children.
When the problem is too much of something, the solution is less of it. Make of that what you will.
I like to think the solution is much more complex but, I guess you can't get snakes from chicken eggs.
It's time to put funding into solutions. Making less people isn't the solution. Managing our resources responsibility is the better solution.
Don't stop making people, start making better quality people.
Put the value back into my income then, ye cunts.
I make the same number as my dad used to. His was a different currency but the number was the same which makes it awfully simple to put everything into perspective.
His house: 350 Mine: a little under half the size: 900
I'm already down 550 in comparison.
His insurance: 90 Mine: 160
I'm down 620.
His medicine cost and doctor visits: basically zero. Mine: 385 and half the medicine comes out of pocket nowadays.
This difference is hard to put into perspectice as the 385 is once a year and medicine depends on the situation.
Him: unemployed wife, groceries cost about 200 for a full month, owns a car and has 4 children.
Me: wife works and has a hobby that makes money, no car because no money left. Groceries: we eat about 2/3rd of what they did and pay 200 a week. No children.
We are down 1220 if we forget about insurance and medicine. I don't make 1220 more than he did.
Fuck this hellhole, you stole our life and i hope there is a hell for you scumbags.
you stole our life
Don't blame your dad - however much you resent him it's not like he has any influence over the economy. Instead blame the super rich who have real influence and are actively pushing policy to widen this social divide.
But it is partially their fault: they have the largest political clout by generation so welfare and zoning policies have always suited them at the behest of everyone else.
And even if people don't have kids, the rich aren't going to be impacted. They just use immigration as a stop gap until everything is automated away and we see wealth imbalance get taken to 11. I'm talking gated communities everywhere with poverty in-between (e.g South Africa)
You're choosing to be wilfully ignorant about inflation. You don't make as much as he did in a real sense.
Gee, it's almost like it's important for the long term success of society to have systems in place that make sure it's not a burden to create new people to take over for your generation after their bodies are too old and broken to keep working and society functioning.
Then again, the decisions have already been made by the people with the power to make them, and technology/automation are in line to replace workers. They'll be a little loud and problematic until the numbers naturally even themselves out, but we'll be left with an enlightened society of capitalist asset owners being supported by a massive technological network.
It would be a shame if a new Luddite movement came and broke the machines putting humans out of work they want to do.
Or give us a universal basic income and let humans do what they want to do to make themselves happy while the machines do all the work.
Makes a fascinating short story:
Jimmy thought his job at the data center was easy, clock in, watch the cameras, do the rounds, clock out. Good pay, low effort....
then 10,000 people showed up with hammers and crow bars. Jimmy was about to have a very bad day.
What value is a universal basic income to the shareholders? That is the question to ask in this capitalist hellscape.
I'd say that sometimes it may even be beneficial to shareholders because they will not have to deal with people in the company that are there only to up the workspace numbers. You know, those job positions that only exist because of how wrecked the system is now
Maybe one day many, many years from now when there are far fewer humans and machines have taken over nearly all production. UBI isn’t feasible on this side of the coming demographic boogaloo.
Don't worry, if by some incredible luck we'll manage to get number of humans to more sustainable levels the economics of having children will change completely and we'll avoid extinction.
The plebs aren't breeding enough future workers for us to exploit to deliver the promised renumerations to our shareholders.
We MUST find out the reason why! No it can't possibly be that extracting all the wealth into our dragon hoards, I mean, hedge funds is the reason why they're too broke to support children.
It can only be a LiFeStYlE cHoICe! Like being homeless or poor.
choice or forced the reconcile the gloomy outlook, the right wing would love to take even the right to choose away from the population. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/04/birth-control-is-next-republicans-abortion.html
Friend of mine wanted kids. Can't afford it. Both her and her partner work full time, though money was too tight for them to feel comfortable. It's heartbreaking, really.
Why the fuck would I want to subject my own children to the inevitability of human suffering? I'm not going to make the same mistake my parents made.
If the world collapses because there are no more children, I'll consider it my greatest accomplishment before ending it all on my own terms.
It won't. Humans in general breed like crazy. It will collapse because of climate disasters.
If the world collapses because there are no more children, I’ll consider it my greatest accomplishment before ending it all on my own terms.
Since this is all just a fantasy, and will never happen, you could just imagine it happened before ending it on your own terms, whenever that may be.
Same end result.