https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/11/amazon-vega-linux-based-os
Amazon is reportedly working on its own Linux-based OS to replace Android on its Fire TVs, smart displays, and other non-tablet devices. —What's that?
Nice! And they will probably differentiate from the competition by allowing GPL applications and sideloading, and having a total control for your privacy and no tracking, right?
Right?
Probably will just be more like their own flavor of Android where they lock down the OS and insert all kinds of malware.
I know there's sarcasm here, but the article did state an sdk will be available so apps need ported.
Agreed. If it was any company at all except Amazon there would be hope but come on. We've all seen what they did to the fire sticks
That can be easily done with AOSP, to my knowledge there's no Google stuff in there. Which is exactly what they're using right now
There still is some google stuff in there, like for example phoning google servers to check internet connectivity among other stuff.
Yes, but those minor traces are easy enough to remove, especially if you don't care about being "ceritified" by Google (i.e. are not planning to run the Google services).
Exactly.
If my device is compatible, does it automatically have access to Google Play and branding?
No. Access isn't automatic. Google Play is a service operated by Google. Achieving compatibility is a prerequisite for obtaining access to the Google Play software and branding. After a device is qualified as an Android-compatible device, the device manufacturer should complete the contact form included in licensing Google Mobile Services to seek access to Google Play. We'll be in contact if we can help you.
https://source.android.com/docs/setup/about/faqs
Google services are entirely missing from Android open source. The Google Play package is what contains the entirety of Google's services.
Not sure if anyone remembers but back when cyanogenMod was the go-to, early versions had Google services included. Google sent a cease and desist notice and said it was a license violation. You cannot distribute it as part of the OS by default. The next release of cyanogenMod had it removed. Users had to flash the package if they wanted it.
Right but the topic was about google's data harvesting and what I meant was that you can't just grab any AOSP distribution if you want to minimize that, you need to pick one that replaces the parts that send data to google. LineageOS for example still phones google for quite a number of services.
As far as "easy to remove" goes, I think that's kind of debatable if you want to do it in a way that's sustainable long term considering the effort that goes into e.g. GrapheneOS or DivestOS.
Edit: here is a list of the kind of stuff you need to watch out for if you want to minimize the data sent to google
I was answering under the assumption/the context of of "Amazon wants to release an Android-based OS that doesn't contact any of Googles services".
So, when I said "easy enough to remove" that was relative to releasing any commercial OS based on AOSP, as in: this will be one of the smallest tasks involved in this whole venture.
They will need an (at least semi-automated) way to keep up with changes from upstream and still apply their own code-changes on top of that anyway and once that is set up, a small set of 10-ish 3-line patches is not a lot of effort. For an individual getting started and trying to keep that all up to do date individually it's a bit more of an effort, granted.
The list you linked is very interesting, but I suspect that much of that isn't in AOSP, my suspicion is that at most the things up to and excluding the Updater even exist in AOSP.
Yes but people are just sideloading GAPPS and escaping their ecosystem. Might even run custom launchers so you can't experience their ads.
The author is exited but I'm not. I am not a big fan of corporations taking the free work of FOSS developers and turning it into a proprietary dystopia.
I think that having a strong public domain is good for everyone. For instance properties like Sherlock Holmes really took off once it was in the public domain and people could write spin-offs and whatnot without worry that a copyright lawyer would come along and sue them.
Linux is the same thing, Amazon using the kernel and stuff to build an OS on doesn't take anything away from anyone else who uses Linux as a desktop or server environment, and in fact can lead to some good pass back, even if it is just that the devices are easier to root. Take a look at the Open-wrt project, where Linksys built their router on top of a Linux kernel and it led to a whole ecosystem of open routers. People went out of their way to buy a WRT-42G just with the intent of rooting it, and Linksys got their money either way.
Amazon using Linux isn't the concern. What OP was referring to are things like their use of Elasticsearch. It's basically Amazon's version of embrace, extend, extinguish. It got so bad, that the devs of Elasticsearch changed their licensing as a way to fight against Amazon's tactics.
https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-aws
Open source is great. But when other companies take the open source code as their own to the detriment to the original open source devs, that's not sustainable. That behaviour will kill open source.
If it were anyone other than Amazon or Apple.
Speaking of which, isn't MacOS Linux based these days? How much have they contributed back? (Genuine question)
A third competitor for Android and iOS would be amazing. But not if it's Amazon..
https://pine64.com/product-category/pinephone/
https://pine64.com/product-category/smartphones/pinephone-pro/
There is already something in the works (that you can technically buy right now if you wanted), and it actively respects your freedom. Granted, as with everything in this ecosystem, its a very slow burn, so it'll be a while before the software is actually good, but it's already made massive strides from where it started.
I would say wait a bit and take a look at this later, but i do have one friend daily driving one now to some success (this wasn't possible a year ago).
That would be great, but you can buy a $20 burner from a gas station that's more powerful than those phones.
The regular version uses the Allwinner A64 chip which retailed for $5 when it was released... Back in 2015.
The Pro version uses the RK3399S, which is a custom lower binned version of the RK3399. Neither chip was made available retail, but the SK3399 was released in 2016 and only otherwise used in low-end Chromebooks and SBCs.
Sure, but calling them out for not being a $20 burner phone doesnt make sense when you're comparing that to a developer/development device. This phone specifically isnt meant for everyday consumers. What it is, however, is a signal that there is now a third competitor in the works, and it's real and tangible.
I just read an article about how they're increasing advertising on their Fire TVs. Rest assured, an Amazon OS is an Advertising OS.
Although, from what I've gathered of public opinion online, there's LOTS of people willing to forgo their privacy in exchange for free shit.
Edit: Oh...
They say they expect Vega to begin shipping on Fire TVs early next year.
And that article https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/11/after-luring-customers-with-low-prices-amazon-stuffs-fire-tvs-with-ads/
Apple would sell for 10 but would deny until death that it sold, and still convince you to believe that it didn't sell.In addition to giving it a "cool" name like DNA Titanium Protection XDR or something like that,
Android is already free software, and see how far that gets you. The kicker is that you're tied into their services (with all the data harvesting, targeted advertising and monetisation that that involves).
TL;DR Amazon is building a Linux distro that starts a chromium to run react native apps. Apparently, you need hundreds of people for that.
TBH Amazon has a whole zoo of devices. Even if they are putting a small team of 2 or 3 people in charge for porting this to each device, they might end up with a few hundred people
Oh so I won’t be able to sideload streaming APKs onto any new Amazon devices? Guess you can fucking keep your shit hardware then
There are two options here, given that the OS seems to rely heavily on React Native to work: having the streaming APKs converted to React Native apps, or simply use the web browser and PWAs.
Apps are going to be written in React Native
So despite the desire for one, Vega won’t be an Android-killer, won’t bring an influx of big name apps to benefit regular Linux distros, nor see Amazon do something crazy cool like create its own Linux tablet UI.
You know how much overhead Electron apps are? Well, here's React Native! Enjoy all the annoyances of mobile development with the ugliest that is React!
(I kid. Or am I?)
It actually works pretty great, it genuinely does compile to native code pretty well. The js code just drives - everything visual or I/O is native, so it's faster than you'd think
Apps are going to be written in React Native
Idk if I'm the only person who thinks this, but I feel like React has gotten worse over the last couple of major versions. Not only does the code look a lot messier when you use their new syntax, but the end result seems unreliable. Facebook is barely even usable now. Their history management is laughable, and it'll drop you out of the site randomly when using the back buttons. I used to think React was really neat, but I'm not a big fan anymore. There's too much re-engineering for problems that were solved decades ago.
Damn....I'm trying to modernize my personal app's UI and I thought react was the shit. What is the recommended framework now?
If you like it, then use it. There's no point in jumping every time some new framework comes out. Most of them don't last. I have used React off and on since it came out, and I personally don't like how the syntax has changed. My personal website is React and doesn't have any browser history issues. Idk what's up with Facebook history management. I guess they just don't care very much because they're too busy trying to gobble up data.
Honestly this. You'll rebuild it in a few years anyways.
If you absolutely want your project to survive after 15 years...
Either web components using vanilla, or hell, just go jquery. Jquery is impossible to kill.
React is having the same problems Angular had, and jQuery had. New ECMAscript features make formerly complex things easier, and JS frameworks adapt.
Lots of solutions. But as more edge cases start to show up, they continue to add more and more little things that shape the language into more different variants.
Many of the changes are pretty good. But New devs will go, "Why are there 7 ways to do this React thing?" And that adds to the noise.
Again, that's not a React problem. It's just coding in general. PHP also had a "damn you ugly" phase. But unlike PHP, I don't think React (and most JS frameworks of today) will continue to be as popular as some hot new JS framework in 2027-2030 sweeps the landscape.
And PHP will still be chugging along. lol. It's weird that React syntax went from being fairly pretty, and structured, to looking like a plate of spaghetti. Usually languages and frameworks go the other direction.
Not at all knocking PHP.
I love how PHP 7 looks, and PHP 8 only continues to improve.
Totally agree. React is going backwards. Vue is so attractive. Heck, I'm even starting to rebuild react apps in Web components because react is getting weird.
oh great, yet another platform that will use free software to restrict what people can do with their computing devices 🤮
how is this supposed to be a good thing? 🙄
I’m not sure how this is in any way different from android? Android is free software they use to restrict the computing they devices they sell to push more ads and junkware. This is just a different one. Amazon sucks, so I don’t see what move they could make that could be seen as positive. Just don’t buy their garbage devices.
With any luck they'll probably introduce some new exploits to free up the device.
I am in dire need of decent linux smartphones that aren't android. Can Valve just get to it please?
how is this supposed to be a good thing?
Well you see, it makes rich people more money.
Amazon can't make TVs or ereades without filling them to the brim with ads and spyware like the greedy shits they are, I dont want to think about how screwed up their OS would be. As much as I sneer at Microsoft and windows BS as a snobby Linux user I get the impression amazon would be way worse and make Ol Gatey boy say 'have a little class, would you?'
If it runs Amazon-Linux it won't take long for someone to build a Wamazon Linux distro with all the features and none of the crap.
it won't take long for someone to build a Wamazon Linux distro with all the features and none of the crap.
I don't know what "features" Amazon would include that aren't somehow directly tied into their store and ease of shopping...aka "crap." It's not like they would build a better video/audio driver or something. It would all just be more...advertising and analytics, probably on a cheap platform as hardware has never been their largest source of income, to include Kindles (AWS is, last I checked). Strip those two out of their build and we have essentially an untouched kernel lol, at least that's how I see it happening.
If anything, it'll be a thing where amazon ends up close sourcing the code/parts that they create after forking whatever OS they decide. That, or they'll just close source the entire codebase 100% before release without any regard or repercussions.
Amazon out here thinking “could you imagine how much cheap garbage we could try to sell people if we can harvest literally all of the data directly?”
These tentacular megacorporations are a problem. Amazon is OK as a merchant, MS as an OS developer, Google as a search engine... If they do vertical integration the market is corrupted.
I'm really dumb. Can you expand on vertical integration and how it corrupts? I'm not sure what it is or why it's bad.
Vertical integration is when you control the entire product, in consumer electronics Apple is the gold standard; they make the software, hardware, and processors then integrate them into iPhones and macBooks. Tesla is a good example in the automotive space, their goal with the mega-factories is "raw materials in, cars out" and they work to build as many of the parts themselves as possible.
Alternately Microsoft just makes a good enough OS that runs on good enough hardware from commodity vendors, so you get good enough computers. Most auto makers buy good enough components from 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers and integrate them into good enough cars.
That is a great explanation of what vertical integration is. I am not sure I see why it is inherently bad.
I guess a large vertically integrated option could make it hard for alternatives to compete. That is more of a monopoly problem than a vertical integration issue though.
I do agree with interoperability requirements though. I see nothing wrong with Apple offering a fully vertically integrated product. The issue is when I cannot run my own OS on the hardware, my own apps on their OS, or interact with hardware from other vendors.
But that's exactly the problem. If the company is kind about it, or forced to play nice by effective regulation, there's no issue. But if there's no regulation and the company wants to, it tends towards monopolistic tendencies. And there's nothing that incentivizes a company to play nice forever, in fact they're incentivized to maximize profit. So Vertical Integration is bad without being checked.
Honestly I feel like you have microsoft backwards, in my experience their hardware is so so much better than their software
Lmao, they can have fun with that. I can't imagine it being anything decent. A mobile phone equivalent of a DVD Player OS lol
Good luck getting all the developers to rewrite their apps. The only reason you had any apps was because it was based on Android so it was little to no effort to port. Going plain ol' embedded Linux is basically the death knell of your developer story. Source: been there, had no third party apps, switched to Android
I'm sure they have thought of this, I wonder if they plan to use web apps, or Waydroid, or something else.
Also, there's a chance mobile Linux could benefit from sponsorships, contributions, etc
It's in the article. Web based stuff with REACT.
Edit: It's REACT Native. Just read the fucking article, people.
Oh man PWA as a replace to traditional apps have been promised for a while. On one hand the promise of write once run anywhere on the other less ability to lock down your app from your users (good for us, but not popular in the mobile space at the moment)
Firefox did it like 10 years ago. I think it's still going around under a different name in very low tier smart phones.
You’re likely thinking KaiOS. They are still contributing what is required under MPL-2.0 but the rest is proprietary. KaiOS 3.x finally got off of a browser from 2016 as the base, but very few have upgraded their apps to be compatible (the tweaks were minor) & others have used it as a reminder that they were still ‘supporting’ a platform like whoever is maintaining or using that WhatsApp thing for chat.
There’s also Capyloon built from B2G, but it’s still early on & is targeting touch phones, instead of feature phones.
It would be nice to see it around IMO since it’d just be another enhancement to progressive web applications & JavaScript is a better target than Java or Swift.
promise of write once run anywhere
PWAs are great if they're written well, especially if they allow offline access.
There's platforms like React Native where the apps are native on each platform (they use native UI widgets). You can't just run the same code, but you can reuse probably 90-95% of code across platforms.
This is for their Alexa devices. They currently use Android (Fire OS) and do not have third party apps installed. Amazon have been trying to replace it with a new OS for years.
I already tried an Amazon Fire tablet, Amazon. No thanks. I returned it. I don't need a locked-down console that spies on me. Windows is well on its way to becoming that already.
I tried to get one since it was 30 bucks, so I'm not too surprised this is how they operated. They are locking down jindles real hard too. Probably going to make a lot of ewaste.