https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/30/eu-antisemitism-islamophobia-europe-live
Michael O’Flaherty, director of agency for fundamental rights, says ‘dramatic moments in our societies trigger antisemitic responses’
I realize I'm bringing a bunch of down votes on myself with the following text, that's ok because I'm still trying to form an opinion on this topic for me.
I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they're Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly basically if someone is dissatisfied with the actions of the state Israel then they are called Antisemitic.
Perhaps I was misunderstanding the word, so I checked the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism and there it's not super clear either, but then I found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism it appears that I indeed was wrong and that New-Antisemitism seems to be any criticism of the Israeli government.
In this case I'm with the critics which say:
Critics of the concept argue that it is used in practice to silence political debate and freedom of speech regarding the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and that it trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, by conflating political anti-Zionism and criticism of the Israeli government with racism, condoning violence against Jews, or the Holocaust. Further critical arguments include the inclusion of race within legitimate criticism of Israel to be too narrow.
When it comes to racism it's pretty clear that you can criticize someone for what they do without being racist, but not criticize them for what they are, because then you're racist. On the other hand somehow criticizing a government for their actions which just so happens to be a government which governs a lot of Jews seems to be automatic antisemitism, even though the same criticism applied on other governments seems to not be seen as problematic.
On top of the whole thing I'm also German and in Germany this phenomenon seems to be much more extrem compared to other countries. I understand that this is because of the German guilt.
There are anti-zionists who are also antisemites, but anti-zionism isn't antisemitism itself. Try to have a nuanced conversation about such a heated topic... Lately i've been seeing people just straight up deny antisemitic anti-zionists even exists. And obviously the people who think they are the same thing. It's like people are suddenly unable to understand the concept of venn diagrams.
The people who proudly claim themselves "anti-zionist" IRL are almost always anti-semites if you scratch the surface. Not because anti-zionism is inherently so, but because the term has become a dog-whistle for "I watched too many conspiracy youtube videos".
Also it's a weirdly religiously charged word to use; we don't use a specific word for Russia's goals for Ukraine or China's goals for Tibet or Taiwan. So of course the use of a religiously charged word begets accusations of religious persecution.
"I am against Israel's apartheid state and illegal colonization of the West Bank" -> perfectly sane take
"I am anti-zionist" -> oh my god what kind of cookadoodledoo rant is this motherfucker about to get into
So yeah, I'd stay clear of "zionism" as a concept entirely. While it is an integral part of the history of Israel, it is not necessary to understand that to criticize Israel's actions in the 21st century. And if you're going to pull put the "but the zionists" card, you better know about domestic Israeli politics a lot better than I do (which if you don't have a reasonable reason to do so like being Israeli, is again a red flag for an obsession with "the jews").
The problem is at least in Germany that the nuance is literally banned by the government. Demonstrations in support of the Palestinian victims of Israels attacks and blockade are getting banned in fear of antisemitism. Educational entities proclaim that criticism of the shape of the Israeli state are considered antisemitism as much as demands to give back the land of the displaced Palestinians, as these are considered "attacks on the existential right of Israel".
I tried to find that term and it doesn't seem to exist in the english languaged discourse. Also i couldn't find anything that actually gives specific states a specific right to exist. People have the right to exist and be sovereign, but this is not tied to any specific state. And from my understanding the sovereignity of one people cannot be used as a reason to take away the sovereignity of another people.
I was in germany last week and was quite surprised to see all the israeli flags around. But from a historical perpective i do get it
Germany is prone to dogmatism. There is a culture of putting things in boxes of right or wrong and then signaling it. Besides, skipping to judgement is easier than trying to unravel complications and risking being questioned in a hot seat. Spirit of being risk-averse.
My guy they are quite the textbook example of antisemites https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
"I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they're Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly ". What else was that supposed to mean?
"I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they’re Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly ". What else was that supposed to mean?
But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly basically if someone is dissatisfied with the actions of the state Israel then they are called Antisemitic.
Not OP but: I mean if you bothered to read the sentence you quoted to the end you'd have your question answered
And what is that supposed to mean? Hamas is antisemitic. The place where he sees people using the word antisemite is the same place where the Hamas is being called out.
The place where he sees people using the word antisemite is the same place where the Hamas is being called out.
No. This is your assumption from your limited bubble. In his limited bubble there might be people calling legitimate israel critique antisemitic. You just hopped in this thread and claimed they were talking about Hamas apologetics.
It means that now you can't criticise Israel actions without being called an antisemite, even tho you don't care about them being jews.
An anti-Semite is not a person that doesn't like Jews, it's a person whom Jews don't like 😉
If I'm not mistaken, Palestinians are also considered Semites. That would make Israelis... anti-Semites?
Both of the things you said are bullshit.
Anti-semitism (anti-jewish racism) is real. To claim otherwise is to deny a whole history of atrocities, as well as ongoing phenomena. Random Jewish people even completely unrelated to anything to do with Israel are attacked all the time. Neofascists are using clear antisemitic tropes and dogwhistles, even when they are not straight up talking about Jewish space lasers putting fires in California.
Anti-semitism is the prejudice, systemic and personal, against Jews. While etymology sometimes can clarify nuances in meaning, it is not necessarily semantically meaningful. The word "semitic" is either an entirely linguistic one (semitic languages), i.e., narrowly technical in a scientific field, or it makes reference to outdated pseudo scientific racist theories, in a list that includes things like the Aryan race and the Mediterranean race.
Finally: bullshit like what you wrote is either perpetuated by bona fide antisemite fascists or by people who completely misguidedly think that this way they are somehow helping the Palestinian cause (they are not, in fact, they are hurting it).
ADL lost a lot of credibility after saying that the overwhelming majority of the Jewish community supports Palestinian genocide.
There is nothing more anti-semitic than Zionists using the good Jewish name to shield them against criticism of the genocide they are committing.
Israel is like the ISIS for Jews. Dragging their name through the mud while doing things that are completely against their book.
One significant difference, though, is that you can't blame a jewish Israeli for being born in Israel. In that sense they're much different than the Western muslims who moved to ISIS territory.
Maybe Israel shouldn't have existed in 1948, but we have to deal with the fact that it does.
That does of course not excuse West Bank colonialism and apartheid. But if I had a workable solution to that I'd not be writing Lemmy comments on the shitter.
Israel is not a real country. And no matter how many "holy" books mention it, it's not supposed to exist.
You would have to define what a real country is, and how it is not the same as the geopolitical status quo of Israel. By any useful contemporary definition Israel is a country.
Claims in religious texts don't mean anything if you cannot independently verify them. What matters is what people (with some power) believe, and a lot of people do believe it does and ought to exist. Enough for it to exist anyway.
israel is not a country it's an American military base. If the only people who recognize a colony as a "country" are other countries that are halfway across the globe it's not a country.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. The majority of countries on earth are former colonies whose borders were drawn up by Europeans thousands of kilometers away. Not only that, Israel is a self governing geopolitical entity that has formal relations with the majority of countries in the world and can defend itself fairly well.
The US is a country despite the fact that the colonisation of North America was a net wrong.
The majority of those countries you speak of recognize eachother. israel is an out of control American military base that abuses the name of the Jewish people to justify their war crimes.
I get that country/state is a loose concept, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
The existence of foreign military bases and whether a political entity has committed war crimes are not typically considered in most accepted definitions of statehood. 85% of the countries on earth, literally a majority, recognize Israel. Going by for instance the criteria of the Montevideo Convention (permanent population, defined territory, government, capacity to have international relations) only the defined territory is debatable.
The thing with geopolitics is that international laws are more like guidelines. If a political entity can afford to exist through whatever means, and if it ticks most of the boxes of what we generally consider to be true of statehood, it is a country/state for all practical purposes.
"as fears grow over rising Islamophobia"
Who exactly fears rising Islamophobia? And given the behavior of the "pro Palestine" people i think they can be glad to not be deported the same day they paint stars of David on the doors of Jews...
We should fear the Islamists being as antisemitic as the Nazis.
Most of us fear getting dragged into some colonial conflict we don't really want to have anything to do with. I have no love for Hamas nor Israel. I feel for the regular people on both sides, maybe a bit more so the long suffering Palestinian civilians (while acknowledging neither side is entirely blameless.)
But they're intent on fighting each other. They've both been told by "God" that this land is theirs. There's no rational way to resolve that.
We should fear the Islamists being as antisemitic as the Nazis.
Yes.
Who exactly fears rising Islamophobia?
Muslims that are not Islamists. And honestly everyone that likes a free society should fear rising hate against groups of people.
How about having people on the train and in restaurants demand you to stand up and make space for them to sit?
How about school children in a holiday camp having to flee under police protection in the middle of the night because the local nazi youth tried to raid their camp?
How about terrorists murdering them openly in the street?
How about having your right to demonstrate be taken away and you being threatend with deportation if you voice your opinion publicly. Especially with deportation to countries like Syria where as a refugee who fled to Europe you can expect to be tortured, murdered and dissappeared.
All of these are the reality muslim people in countries like Germany, or people who are deemed to be muslims, which also affects arabic or arabic looking jews.
The people most happy right now are the local Nazis, who would murder both muslims and jews if they could and are happy to fuel the fire.
So in propping up the islamophobia and peddling to both the Nazis and to Israel in fear of being considered antisemitic, the politics in Germany and similiar countries are also propping up antisemitism.
EDIT: Holy hell i didn't expect there so many people having a problem with facing the real racism in the countries they live in. No wonder fascism is on the rise as the rest looks away. On the receiving end of this will be all minorities, doesn't matter if jewish, muslim, LGBT, disabled or anything else people might take as a "reason" to discriminate against them.
So murdering people is okay to you because other people do it? You are fucked in the head.
Yes? That is literally how war works. We kill you because you kill us otherwise. Are you also saying that Ukraine is the bad guys because they kill russians?
self defence in war against enemy fighters is very different from heinously killing someone without any actual danger to yourself.
in the same wake killing a fighting soldier in a war is legitimate. killing a surrendering soldier is a war crime.
It shouldnt be a surprise that yes, an intolerant society that doesnt even tolerate its own people isnt tolerated elsewhere much.
And by being accepting of women being harassed in the streets for not adhering to western clothing, for people being murdered at random while running their shops and paying taxes you show a great deal if a tolerant society...
The amount of projection and hipocricsy that runs through European racists like you is truly mindboggling.
