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Crazy, how such a small time when germany was divided had such a large effect. The Soviets knew how to shape a people, I give them that.
I would see it the other way around. It shows that religion is nothing natural and as soon as churches aren't actively allowed to indoctrinate children for one generation religious influence is massively reduced.
Although the GDR regime actively surpressed the church and religion and the churches were actually a place of resistance. E.g. the only place where punk bands could play. The church in the GDR tried to not publically oppose the regime, but helped out people who were.
I am not religious, but the church in the GDR went beyond being a religious institution.
Well if they went beyond bring a religious institution than religion wasn't the thing that solved it.
People always mention churches going above and beyond and acting like charities and I'm ok with the charity but why did u need the religion being involved? By merging it with concepts like charity all it does it is allow it to spread easier and thus that spreads the worse parts of religion that are baked into all religions that i can think of from the top of my head.
I mean, I agree. I am not religious myself.
I was merely arguing that what was going on in the GDR was in any kind natural.
What's going on now, with the churches in Europe bleeding followers with people losing interest as the being religious is not something that is expected of you anymore in societial standards, is way more natural.
Not sure how that is relevant to explain the large percentage of the population there who isn't religious. If anything the effect of the actions you describe was probably slightly in favour of the church membership numbers.
Have you missed the part about the active supression?
They could deny you university if you were active in the church. Which is not really all that natural to me.
Have you missed the part where the GDR has been gone for several decades by the time this data was taken? If people had liked the church for those actions you described and just not gone to avoid repercussions from the state there would be plenty of time for them to go back since the fall of the GDR. They just didn't.
Okay, now I got what you wanted. I misunderstood you, I thought you meant that the surpression of the GDR itself was natural. But you meant what happened after the regime and people had the choice to join the church freely again.
That I agree with.
Yes, basically I meant that some religious people tend to argue that religion is some sort of natural need that people have and even if religion was not passed on to children they would flock to it on their own. It seems that is not the case though or a one generation interruption would not have this large of an effect decades later.
Im glad atheist numbers are growing. All religions are cancers. I dont care what you believe, but keep it to yourself.
You do realize that the "non religious" does not mean atheist, but also includes agnostics?
Also if you look at the map you can see that the non religiousness is primarily caused by the socialist government in former east Germany not being too kind of any religion. You can even see the divide in East and West-Berlin. At the same time there is many people that are registered as protestants or catholics even though they don't feel religious. This map does not help to see such a development.
Agnostics generally don't want to force their beliefs on others though. They won't go against established science to oppose abortion, they won't advocate for laws against blasphemy, they won't usually oppose the rights of non traditional families. So agnostic is already a big win in my book.
Most moderate christians in Germany dont do any of these either.
Heck we had a catholic priest sue against the fascist party AfD for some of their posters being hate speech against trans people and drag artists. Article in German:
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-drag-lesung-strafanzeige-afd-1.5921390?reduced=true
If we're going into details, then most agnostics are part of the atheist-umbrella.
Gnosticism refers to knowledge, Theism refers to belief.
Someone who says "it's unknowable if god exists" and doesn't actively belief (or withholds judgement) in a god is an agnostic atheist. Someone who says it's unknowable but beliefs anyway is an agnostic theist.
Most people who identify as agnostics are agnostic atheists, they do not actively belief in a god.
If you want to separate agnostics and atheists, then you reduce atheism to a small subset of gnostic atheism (it can be known if god exists and doesn't belief that god exists)
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other religions would be interesting aswell since those 2 are definitly not the only religions there.
Natürlich ist der relevanteste Aspekt dieser Frage, insbesondere in Anbetracht unseres derzeitigen politischen Klimas, gekonnt außen vor gelassen worden…
Also die Rassisitisch/Populistische Überfremdungs-Theorie hier reinzubringen ist schon etwas platt (so verstehe ich zumindest deinen Kommentar).
Mein Kommentar oben zeigt dir ganz leicht, dass die anzahl der Muslimen bei Maximal 6% liegen kann , die Konfessionslosen jedoch bei 44% stehen.
Momentan verlieren die "Christliche Kirchen" mehr als eine Million Mitglieder (Gläubige kann man die sicher nicht mehr nennen) durch Tod und Austritte pro Jahr, das bedeutet, dass wir spätestens in fünf Jahren eine Mehrheit von Konfessionslosen in der Bevölkerung haben.
Zuwanderung hat damit nichts zu tun, sondern nur das massive moralische Versagen der selbst ernannten Moralapostel.
Zusätzlich muss man die Daten noch etwas relativieren: Es gibt diverse Branchen, in denen man ohne Kirchenzugehörigkeit kaum Arbeit findet (Der gesamte Pflegesektor von Kindern über Kranke bis zu Senioren). Wenn tatsächlich nur die Gläubigen gezählt werden würden, hätten wir bestimmt maximal die Hälfte der Mitglieder. Und ohne eine Zwangsindoktrinierung über das Schulsystem wären die Kirchen in Deutschland in ca 40 Jahren am Ende (siehe DDR).
Es geht mir nicht notwendigerweise um rassismus oder xenophobie, allerdings sind das beides heiße Themen, auf welche ein paar wissenschaftliche Zahlen gut reagieren könnten. Ob es nun 6 oder 60% muslime sind spielt nur eine sekundäre Rolle, in erster Linie wollte ich einfach nur ein paar faktische Zahlen haben.
Und ja natürlich ist das die interessante Frage wenn es um Religion in Deutschland geht, die alteingesessenen Bürger sind durch die bank weg alle christen oder Atheisten, oder in irgendwelchen statistisch irrelevanten Nischen-Orientierungen. Nichts davon ist neu, oder ein bemerkenswerter Trend, oder relevant für das aktuelle politische Geschehen.
Wie viele Leute nicht-christlichen bzw. Muslimischen Glaubens sind natürlich.
Immigration und integration/assimilation sind gerade mal wieder ein heisses Thema, nicht nur bei uns sondern überall in Europa. Da wäre es schon hilfreich gewesen mal aktuelle Zahlen zu haben.