We can't feasibly stop automation, nor should we. We SHOULD be taking the profits back from billionaires that they've stolen since time immemorial. Automation means less work overall. But we need to ensure the workers actually benefit from that.
Self checkout is not automation. It's making the customer do the work.
Automation would be: Stick an RFID-tag to all your items, make me check in with my phone at the entrance. Automatically "scan" all the items when my cart and my phone leave the store at the same time. Bill me.
As the customer you're already taking stuff out of your cart and putting it on the counter. Maybe automation isn't the right word, but it's certainly more efficient than having a human clerk. It removes a bottleneck.
But it’s not a bottleneck. It’s the opposite. An experienced human checker will tap in the code for oranges way before you find it in their stupid menu.
It is a bottleneck, because the experienced human checker is only entering orange codes for one person at a time. There could be ten people all checking themselves out simultaneously. Even if one or two get slowed down by a menu, it's still a net decrease in average time spent at checkout.
True, but isn't that an implementation issue that can be fixed, rather than an inherent issue with the concept?
Those Amazon just walk out stores like you’re describing are extremely expensive to setup though. Even a spall space requires tons of cameras and sensors, all items to be placed on shelves a certain way, lots of networking backend, etc. Most business are unable to do so right now and I’d say most buildings can’t accommodate it. My work looked into putting one of those in one of our spaces as a test and the cost/work to make it happen in even a small area of our business wasn’t worth it
So it will take more time until the tech is cheaper. Or, hear me out, this one is crazy: We employ cashiers!
I went to a gas station that had this… it was kind of incredible. Put like 10 items on a sensor and it recognized all of them. Then put them in a bag.
I think in terms is control, more people feel as though they can stop/protest automation more than they can take profits back. I think that was the luddite mentality? I speculate, it's been a while since i learned it in school.
The 'job killers' argument is kinda bullshit. I want to kill jobs - I want to eliminate all labor that can be automated, such that in the ideal perfect future, no human ever has to work; they can spend every moment doing things they enjoy without worry.
But self checkout is not automation. No human work has been eliminated. It is the same exact fucking checkout process, only now the customer does it instead, and the store doesn't pay the cashier. And no they don't pass that savings on to you because of course they don't, they just pocket the difference.
That's all true, but just to be a bit nitpicky I'd argue some human work has indeed been eliminated by self checkout.
Cashiers main job is to scan your stuff, but in order to do that they also have to stand around waiting for you and other customers for hours on end, and when you arrive they have to do emotional labor of acting cheerful and upbeat
Still I wish we didn't live in a society where increased efficiency leads to people being homeless with no jobs.
There's at the very least a lot of social and managerial pressure to act cheerful. Even if you didn't do it, many people would because it's effectively required of them. Something being technically a choice doesn't remove the social pressures that make many feel that it's not a choice. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if it's been used as rationale to fire people before, which means that for some, it isn't a choice (and most people are scared of losing their jobs, so won't try to find out).
In tipped roles, it would definitely result in less pay.
I can't think of the last time someone working a register was anything more than polite. 99.9% of the time, we don't speak in any meaningful way. Their work neither adds value to nor takes value from my day. Which, to be clear, makes me want their jobs to be much, much better. At least give them something to sit on, for goodness sake.
It's a choice right up until you get fired or reprimanded for not meeting some arbitrary criteria
With normal checkout the customer is still the one putting groceries on the belt, and in most cases putting the bags back into the cart. Hell, at Aldi's you have to bag the shit yourself anyways.
I don't see how "scan and bag" is any more intensive than "place everything on belt(which is annoying tetris when you have lots of shit), stand around waiting for cashier to scan and bag".
Aldi backs up that tradeoff with commensurately lower prices, though.
"intensive" isn't the right term here, IMO. Pushing me to do the cashier work via self-checkout is more effort than what I do at Aldi. It doesn't need to be "carry this pallet across the Grand Canyon" to be objectionable.
And the cashier is probably going to screw up the bagging. Does the ice cream go in the insulated re-usable bag, or does it go in a regular bag next to the room temperature canned goods? Pretty good chance it goes into the uninsulated bag, the tomatoes end up in the insulated bag with the milk, etc.
I love your spirit, but that world doesn't exist. Capitalists and conservatives will never allow for a utopian society where people can enjoy their lives on the masses, no matter how advanced production or whatever elses automation becomes. It's always going to be millions suffering and a small majority having more wealth and power than they can even use in a lifetime.
I've encountered checkouts where you just put your hand basket in a container, and it scans everything inside at the same time.
It can and will be automated further.
This is a bad, regressive argument.
We need to legislate the benefit of automation for society.
Trying to bury the technology never works if it is indeed an improvement. Technology is benign, people twist it for malice.
This is the same argument as still using oil based street lamps, just to maintain a the lamplighting jobs that don't need to be done anymore.
It's a Bizaare hill to die on to fight to maintain jobs a robot can do faster and better, rather than fighting to make society the beneficiary of such advances through taxation. Either way, you have to fight the billionaires and will probably lose, so why not fight for a better outcome than maintaining shitty, menial jobs?
This isn't automation though. The self checkout tech is the same tech that a cashier uses. It's not automated. A human still does the work, they just don't get paid for it.
I mean, technically the self-checkout package has automation in it, a scale and cameras to "automate" the process of ensuring what was scanned was what was bagged, a process by which the station determines when employee intervention is necessary, etc. Automation tech is in there, things a person used to do are being done by technology, but again it wasn't created to improve the way it was done before, merely to make the owner more money.
The registers with cashiers also have scales and cameras and systems that are built in to determine when a CSM is required for things like overrides. The tech is not appreciably different. It's not automation.
Our self checkouts completely abandoned the stupid scales except when needed for fruit and such. Enforcing the packing with scales makes for a fucking horrible experience.
I haven't seen any cameras though.
Personally I like that they are more space efficient and time efficient.
Here it is also common to carry around a hand scanner in the store and just pay by docking the scanner without having to pack up anything. It's way quicker.
Seriously, fuck the scales. The grocery store near me recently shut theirs off. I found the manager and thanked him. That thing annoyed the piss out of me.
Here it is also common to carry around a hand scanner in the store and just pay by docking the scanner without having to pack up anything. It's way quicker.
I don’t have that here but I do have a regional grocery chain that allows you to use your phone as the scanner as you shop, then you just go to a terminal at the end of your trip and scan a QR code to finalize. I love it.
Past advancements in medicine has destroyed a lot of jobs... in funeral business. Some jobs should be let go of, if it makes everyone's lives easier ultimately
I disagree with your analogy. The death rate has held steady at 100% for quite some time now. The only difference is how wrinkly the corpses are.
Lamp lighters, cotton pickers, wooden teeth makers, wool socks knitters, muck rakers, medical leech farmers... the list of jobs and entire industries destroyed in the name of "progress" goes on and on. We're going to be totally out of jobs any day now!
Well, we are trying to find even more banal jobs to fill in the blanks. Who out there thought influencer would be a job some day?
With UBI, people would be more inclined to pursue their own interests. They would have more time to set up that little shop selling handcrafted items. There would be more variation and competition. Even more niche products could be created and sold, because there is no fear they will ever go bankrupt.
I remembered Mr Omar from Everybody Hates Chris trying to get the mayor that wouldn't care for safety elected so his funeral business gets more, well, dead people.
I would love a "robotax" where automation is encouraged, but with the caveat that it is also heavily taxed. Not so much that it's cheaper to have employees, but enough so that the people who's jobs have been replaced can still get an income. Be it through major subsidies or the ultimate subsidy: universal basic income
Your instinct to use a systemic solution is good. My concern would be the tax gives corporations the wrong incentive (Some percentage of jobs could be automated but would still be cheaper to hire people). As another approach I like worker cooperatives because if they automate some task the financial benefit goes to the employees. The problem is there aren't enough large scale worker co-ops, so I'd like to see them get tax advantages, preference on government contracts, grants, etc to drive their development.
I think the idea is the tax applies only to any money saved through automation. So if an employee costs $2500/mo and automation costs $500/mo, the company saves $2000/mo. Lets say the tax is 75%, the government takes $1500/mo from the company, but the company is still saving an extra $500/mo from automating, so they are still incentivized to do so.
Then that money from the tax could be used to pay for things like job retraining courses for people displaced by automation, or even maybe UBI.
Tbf, shouldn't we be doing both? Legislation is slow and in the meantime, people need to be paid. Honestly, to me, this doesn't feel that dissimilar to the argument around tipping. Yes, we absolutely SHOULD be paying waitstaff a living wage so tipping isn't needed but in the meantime, you should still tip your server.
Tbf the owners will get 100% of what they want because this country was bought decades ago. I was talking decent world. This will be inflicted on us, and used purely to further satiate the greed of the owners whether we protest for it not to be used and/or to be taxed.
I was just saying it would be stupid to put half our effort into both when one has a much better today outcome in a decent country. But in practical terms? The people are brainwashed, the owners hold all the cards, and this will be used to fuck us all, because the people gave up their voice in the 80s in exchange for the lie that giving the owners everything would benefit everyone. Now we're trapped in this workcamp of a country until collapse, likely long after everyone alive today is dead, because anyone who lives here paying attention knows the peasants are too chickenshit and/or brainwashed to revolt.
Okay but fuck those stores where the self checkout “bagging area” is smaller than the size of a hand cart. Like what fucking idiot designed those.
Heh. I know that idiot, at least one of them. Personally. At least for some of the major retailers that are making the switch who have very small bagging areas.
It's not his fault, it really isn't.
He got a list of requirements. Table is so big, scale is so big, computer is so big, and so many checkouts in so much area.
Every component has a minimum size requirement, and when the client isn't willing to bend on how many check outs must fit, the only other option is to shrink the one thing that can, and that's the bagging area.
Then they pile a bunch of shit in the bagging area, they have these giant caddies to hold thousands of bags, and they put three of them up there.
My gripe is there's not enough room to put items from my bag to scan.
Need to put my bag on the bagging side, but it's full. Gotta take stuff out until scanned. No where to put the stuff, so I pile it on the floor.
Fuck me for bringing my own bag I guess
My understanding is that it's about loss prevention.
They think that self checkout is a high risk for shoplifting, so they want it to be a manageable amount. They need confidence in their security monitoring strategy before they go all in.
After a long trial here including employees monitoring and AI monitored video, the store near me now has maybe 30 self checkouts, with 10 having nice big bagging areas. I never have to wait in line anymore.
"job killer" automation in a reasonable society should mean less need for work and the same amount of resources available (if not more).
But we will never reach the point where we consider picnics, parties and painting more valuable than manipulative marketing, unnecessary polluting but profitable industry, and especially the all-important busywork. Do something profitable. Anything profitable. It doesn't even matter if it's a net negative to society, just do something.
By "we" I assume you mean "billionaires"? We most certainly would enjoy picnics and painting. But it doesn't matter if there's the same or more resources with less work required, when all of the resources are hoarded by 0.1% of the population. Every time a bunch of jobs get automated the billionaires get richer, the poverty class grows, and the middle class shrinks.
If self checkout is optional, yes it's great for small order quick shops. However too many stores are moving to 100% self checkout with just a single lane or two for full service and that's when it becomes a problem.
Grandma's got a cart full of clothes, no computer experience, and all day to scan and fold each item one at a time...
100% self checkout with just a single lane or two for full service
It's not 100% if there are other lanes.
Lol, you're right. I was thinking how the single lane is usually the service desk, where they are also dealing with returns, online orders, customer issues, etc, I hardly consider it a dedicated lane experience. It becomes clear the intention is 100% self checkout while that lane is for exceptions.
Plus there are some items that are genuinely easier to deal with with an actual human, like anything really light or anything with purchasing age restrictions. If you try and go through a self check with a birthday card and a box of cold medicine it's pretty much a guaranteed bad time.
Only if the goobers aren't also using the self checkout in front of you and fucking up every other item somehow requiring assistance.
Where I live there's usually a load of machines in the same space they'd have two conveyors, so even with slow people it ends up being a lot faster.
Nah, self checkout is WAY faster when there's no line, but self checkout waiting behind a line of those goobers would be WAY slower. One time I scanned, bagged, paid, and loaded up an entire cart of groceries in the time it took the dude next to me to scan like a handful of items.
I don't want to interact with a cashier either but fuck if I want to scan my own shit either.
It's also way more awkward when something goes wrong and now I have to initiate.
"Warning! Shopping bag content is 0.00003pg heavier than expected. Please call an assistant or remove the excess items."
Thankfully, Walmart stopped weighing items entirely. Not sure how it affects theft, but it sure makes the checkout process smoother. Don't need to wait after scanning each item. Don't need take reusable bags out of your cart. And they replaced almost all of their checkout lanes with self checkouts.
Too bad Walmart is evil, because their checkout is 👌 and Sam's scan-and-go is just 💦. Every other store is just bad UX.
That's because they now have cameras at each kiosk recording the whole checkout process.
These detect extra things you didn't scan. I had to have an employee come check my items because I was using a cardboard flat to hold the canned goods I was buying. It locked up as soon as I moved the cardboard to the bagging area.
I think that a lot of people here are confusing "introversion" with having social anxiety.
Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're scared of socialization. It means you generally prefer quiet time over socializing.
From Merriam Webster:
A person whose personality is characterized by introversion : a typically reserved or quiet person who tends to be introspective and enjoys spending time alone.
You can be both, but they are definitely not the same thing.
Yes! I'm quite an introvert but I prefer a cashier so I can remain in my mind until I need to pay.
I'm an introvert and I prefer self-checkout because I never have to pause my podcast. With regular check-out I have to pause it for a few minutes while they're scanning my stuff in case they have a question like "do you need bags? do you have a loyalty card?" Other people might enjoy those interactions, or might want to make small-talk with the cashier. I just want to keep listening to the podcast.
I'm willing to do a bit more work and spend a bit more time if I don't have to stand there being attentive to the cashier.
I'm with you man. I love just listening to music while I scan my items and going away. Entire shopping process without interacting with anyone at all. Amazing.
Exactly. Cashiers are perfectly nice people, but I don't really look forward to interacting with them. It doesn't improve my shopping experience in any way. OTOH I really enjoy my podcasts or music, let me stay in my bubble enjoying my thing and my shopping experience is better.
This is a reason I used to admire Japan, before the days of self-check out. Japan had amazing vending machines that would sell you a huge variety of things. Again, get what you want without having to interact with other people. Win!
Most of the cashiers I interacted with years ago weren't really nice. Not that I blame them, the job is boring, the hours are terrible and some people are horrible to serve. As someone who worked in retail and finished every single shift tired and cranky, I get why cashiers don't want to interact with you anymore than you do want to interact with them.
So hooray for neither side having to interact!
Also, i dont know any of the produce codes and i have no idea what they have scallions classified under in their search system.
Exactly. Generally, I have fun when talking to people, but social anxiety makes me prefer to stay at home and talk to less people.
I would like self-checkout a lot more if those cost savings were passed on to the consumer instead of being hoarded by ownership.
It's the classic paradox. Technology and automation could be used to reduce the amount everyone needs to work and enrich everyone's lives as long as those gains are distributed properly. The distribution is the problem.
no one wants to be a checkout clerk at walmart for $6 an hour. This is a good thing. The problem is that the people displaced aren't taken care of. We should be pushing for ubi instead
If I try scanning something 5 times and it doesn't register, I'm moving onto the next item. It's a discount for not teaching me how to use the machine properly.
Me ringing up my PS5: I think this is the right button
Scanner: Weigh your ONIONS... place your ONIONS in the bag
They should also give me a discount for my travel to the store and taking the items off the shelf.
Grocery stores used to get your items off the shelf for you but now we do that. I think we're just used to a cashier scanning the items, so it will obviously take time for people to adjust.
At least the latter is a similar sort of change. Cashier/storekeep work is now something the customer does.
I dunno about this one, like what kind of a discount would apply here? How big?
I think in a vacuum a self checkout saves a buck or two per purchase for the store. But that is in a vacuum, you still have a cashier assisting the checkout, maintenance for scanners, probably security watching the scanners etc. I don’t doubt it saves cash, but like probably cents per purchase.
Eh, you have one cashier watching like 7 checkouts. Security would be a thing regardless, because they'd otherwise be watching to make sure nobody walks out with an item or steals from the register.
I'm not really convinced they do a lot of maintenance on those things, for how well they function, but I also wouldn't be surprised if that's the machine at its best.
Wouldn't know how much they really cost per machine in order to account for that, either, but the Walmart near me only ever has one person watching the self-checkout, doesn't even always have anyone on an available lane, and they've had those things forever.
That one, at least, didn't buy more tech for covid. They just fired some people and redirected the customers. They're saving more than enough in wages.
The fact that, from experience, my average customers per hour divided by pay (and thus, the rightful customer discount for doing my job) still adds up to a matter of cents probably says more about how much I was being paid.
I wonder, what was your average customers/h assuming non-stop traffic? I don't remember how fast it went, I was doing shelves and warehouse, subbed in register only a few times when work was basically done in the evening.
Gotta say tho, can't imagine why someone would go cashier in a supper market, it is the most brutal place for sure. Working shelves and warehouse was pretty chill all things considered, at least we could go pee and have smoke breaks, as well as eat on our own schedule.
Norway has roughly the same unemployment rate as the us, but most supermarkets have the option of self service, most fuel pumps are self service (never have someone pumping it for you), and if anyone bags your groceries for you it's kids raising money for their football team or something. Very few people (comparatively) have menial jobs but unemployment isn't really higher. I also don't know anyone who has to work more than 1 full time job to survive. Menial jobs trap people who could otherwise flourish.
Exactly. With with self checkout, customer throughput is increased because if you have 2 cashiers and 20 customers, you're being limited by the 2 people doing all the work while everyone else waits. If you have 6 self checkout instead, average wait time is 1/3.
I use it even if it's slower because I don't have to pause my podcast to make smalltalk or answer questions like "do you need a bag?"
For a few items, sure. But even I, a rabid introvert, will seek out a cashier for my weekly shopping. To say hello and goodbye. You all forget to be human beings. Stop making being InTrOvErT yet another singular form of personal identity.
I'm so tired of people with social anxiety always trying to appropriate introversion. Introverts don't have that kind of phobia of personal interaction.
I don't mind using a self checkout except that they're all terrible. The rep has to come over so often, it's just a regular checkout with extra steps.
I had that experience when they were new, but barely ever need assistance for almost a decade.
I'm so good at them I'll change the language to Spanish and check out just for funsies.
My wife likes to put it in random languages. Real good fun until there was some sort of error and we had no idea what was going on and it didn't allow us to change the language. Even the cashier was puzzled. I had a nice "I told you so" moment there.
They HAVE gotten a lot better. I was thinking about adding a disclaimer for the present, looks like I should have.
As not just an introvert, but an introvert who had to deal with a language barrier for a long time, I don't love going through the normal checkout, but I actively dread the idea of having the support person come over because the balance can't read my tomatoes or whatever.
I'd say online ordering works around both, social anxiety-wise, but then you have to live in fear of when they inevitably call you to say that they don't have this particular type of banana and maybe you'd like some identical type of banana but we definitely need to have a conversation about it first.
If it smells like shit everywhere you go, check your shoe.
I rarely have problems and I don't have to bother taking out my headphones.
Not that that saying never had the last four letters of DARVO written all over it to begin with, mind, but I'm so used to seeing it in the context of discrediting trauma that I had to stare at it for several minutes to realize it meant, "If the machine constantly fucks up, maybe you're just too stupid for touchscreens."
Not gonna lie, my time in customer service has notably damaged my impression of people. But really, my dude? The contribution is a more insulting version of "works fine for me?"
It should be
"Billionaires make thousands of dollars per second every day even if they don't get out of bed in the morning, we need UBI for every amercian citizen and double that of a living wage as the minimum wage.
