Hey Hexbear, if you're dropping by, let me know when Russian and Chinese workers seize the means of production.
In the meantime I'm sitting here oppressed in Norway.
Not a commie, but didn't the Norwegian people nationalize the oil production, leasing it out to companies while keeping a huge share of the profit for the welfare of common Norwegians?
My understanding is that, in a sense, that is exactly what seizing the means of production is about.
Controlling the natural resources a country and leasing it out it private companies is pretty standard practice in most non corrupt countries. Norway probably differs in that they capture more of the economic rent in part due to a more efficient tax and a share of public ownership.
Nope. The people making these policies laid the plans for nationalizing the natural resources of Norway while in German concentration camps, where they were sent precisely because they were socialists. They are the primary reason, along with the discovery of oil and gas, for Norway being one of the richest countries on earth per capita. That the extraction of natural resources is under democratic control and under a somewhat high taxation scheme is not evidence of a fascist state-corp merger, but something that should be the default in all countries around the world to combat imperialist capital interests (except that the taxes should be even higher).
Sure! There are multiple claims in my comments, but one can get the gist by reading about the first prime minister of Norway after World War II, Einar Gerhardsen. To back up this new claim I cite the same Wikipedia article linked above:
Many Norwegians often refer to him as "Landsfaderen" (Father of the Nation); he is generally considered one of the main architects of the post-war rebuilding of Norway after World War II.
A better source might be SNL (which stands for the Great Norwegian Encyclopedia and is owned mostly by different Norwegian universities) though this source is in Norwegian only, but should be fine to auto-translate if needed.
The idea of public ownership over natural resources is something that has been a big part of Norwegian identity, and this idea is also manifested in other laws such as the Freedom to roam law, which essentially states that it is
(...) the general public's right to access certain public or privately owned land, lakes, and rivers for recreation and exercise.
Though I would argue much of this identity has been lost in the last 50 years, I am also proud of some of the accomplishments of Norwegian social democracy and think it shows that the idea that "class collaboration is betrayal of socialist values" is wrong. At the same time it is important to admit that there have been problematic parts throughout its development, such as the treatment of the Sámi people and other minorities and the illegal surveillance of suspected communist sympathizers, to name a few.
Polling says that Norway is #7 happiest country on Earth. Finland is #1, Denmark is #2...I wonder where China is on that list OwO
Bruh, we have oppressed people in Norway. Did you forget that our own supreme court ruled that some of our wind mills at Fosen are in violation of UN law of civil and political rights (source in Norwegian). That was two years ago and they are still standing, which is especially bad due to the historical repression and attempts at ethnic cleansing of Sámi people in Norway, that was going on for a disturbingly long time. Now, as a quick caveat I will add that on a global scale we are doing pretty alright. However, that you are fortunate and well, for which I am glad, does not mean that the sentiment of the meme is wrong. Since the 70s much of the good systems we built have been demolished by laissez-faire politics and politicians, like your beloved "Jern-Erna", lowering corporate taxes and allowing for privatization of public services (our railway system, healthcare and so on). I also don't think many people from Hexbear are deluded enough to believe in imminent revolution in Russia nor conflating the Russian government with the Communist Party of China (though I might suspect you do), making your comment either worthless or in bad faith (we both know it is both). Either way, I support seizing the means of production and voted for my convictions today. Even though I believe I probably fundamentally disagree with you, I hope you did too. Leave the "all communists are tankie fascists" idea at home please. It only makes you look ignorant and a bad representative for our nice little country.
norway isn't socialist, but a social democracy where they move all the unethical labour somewhere else. it's miles better than neoliberalism, but it's still capitalist
... You do realize we hear most internet communists we come across argue that we'd be so much better if we were run like Russian or China?
Those guys are idiots.
Best solution for Norway is to continue exporting undesirable labor like they've been doing, until the oil runs out, out demand dries up. Not sure what you'll do then but you won't be alone anyway.
It's not best for everyone, by any means. But it's best for Norway.
Yeah best for everyone would be if we invaded Finland and put people in jail for bringing up history.
Not hexbear but aren't you Norwegians an oppressive oil state? You guys were bombing brown people for fun a couple of years back. Isn't Stoltenburg one of your guys? He just admitted to intentionally provoking the Russian invasion.
Well they're from Lemmygrad so that "good chance it's not" can instantly be elevated to "definitely not joking".
Oh look! A commie!
Say hi when you meet our little black sparrow-sized drones. All you have to do to earn a visit is mention how we fucked over the Sami, we really don't like those things. Oh, and don't insult Jern-Erna if she gets back in power, she'll divebomb you and leave nothing but a crater. Say what you will about Støre, he's a soggy twig.
There have been at least two different countries seize the means of production over the years, it didn't really work out for either of them. Turns out they just swapped one bourgeoise class for another, while the peasants and proles starved.
Quite refreshing to see extreme right-wing fuming over actual extreme left-wing, instead of the moderate left-wing they are used to.
You mean neoliberals? Those are center-right to right wing. Just because you're to the left of fascism doesn't mean you're left of center.
I'm south african. My government has the means of production for electricity seized (they own Eskom which has a monopoly.) It is well known that while the regular person has to deal with load shedding, the government officials do not
Add the issues with South African Airways and I would not like all the means of production to be owned by the government
Owned by the government is specifically NOT "owned by the workers". That is definitionally not socialism, and it's not communism either.
I seriously hate how no one even knows what socialism or real communism is... Only in stupid authoritarian "communism" like China do you have the government own much of anything directly. Hell, in proper Communism, there's not supposed to be much of a government at all. Nothing like the giant armies of beurocrats and politicians most places have today, anyways.
That's kind of the point of most people who don't think communism can function in current society, the government represents the people, right? So "the people" owning the means of production just becomes "the government" owning the means of production.
Which is why all "communist" states that have ever existed function identically to their fascist counterparts, because regardless of what you call it, the state owns everything.
That is because most people literally lack the imagination. Literally incapable of understanding. Extreme communism doesn't even have personal property or a main government, so to fail to see anything other than government ownership is a big tell on ignorance. Yes, most people are ignorant, and those in charge LOVE that fact.
I think most people (correctly imo) don’t see how a large enough company can operate without some hierarchy, which seems to run up against the idea of being entirely equally employee owned.
There’s always going to be leaders (manager or just someone who others listen to) That person necessarily has more responsibility and control than his peers and is justly compensated more (otherwise nobody would put in extra work, say, to train as an engineer or doctor)
That person has their own interests that don’t always line up with the company and may use their influence to guide the company in a way that benefits them.
Suddenly you have a worker class and a bourgeois-esque class.
Most people (incorrectly imo) think that the “unbiased” checks and balances in government counteract that.
If there’s another option that accounts for hierarchies in large employee owned and operated companies let me know…. please
EDIT: large as in number of employees
Again, people are implicitly strawmanning things. No one except extreme anarchists believe in zero hierarchy. Why does everyone always try these insane notions? I didn't say "abolish hierarchy", yet here you are using it as an argument.
If you think executives that make literally hundreds of times more than the lower workers are actually working hundreds of times harder, you are fucking stupid.
If you think they're taking all the risk, then you are fucking stupid. If the company goes under, EVERYONE has to find a new job. If it's a dangerous job, it's the laborers who are taking basically all of the risk.
Just because you can point at specific companies doing good things DOES NOT adequately defend the status quo.
You didn’t present any ideas or solutions to argue against. There’s no argument happening here.
Nor are there strawmen because there’s no argument being made.
You said that there’s generally a lack of imagination with regards to this stuff and I was just sharing my opinions as to why.
You are strawmanning the concept. I'm saying you are likely misunderstanding what the terms being discussed even mean.
How workers would own the means of production in socialism/communism without the government?
Only full blown anarchists and extreme libertarians don't want a government at all. It is utterly foolish to think all leftists wouldn't support 'an' enforcement agency, regulations, and laws...
People expressing opposition to the military industrial complex get called tankies these days.
Well that's just a complete and utter misuse of the term, then. Possibly an effort by tankies to remove meaning from the label.
A tankie is a fake "leftist" who idolizes leftist policies and ideals, but does it via worship of the past efforts, like the USSR, or even specific "socialists" or "communists" like Lenin and so many other horrible dictators... in so doing, they completely and utterly fail to live a single leftist ideal and in reality end up idolizing fascists and authoritarians like Mao. This makes them functionally identical to fascists whilst they claim leftist motives.
Tankies realize leftist ideas are good, but utterly and completely fail to connect wishes with meaningful action, thus want some power figure to do it for them. They're too stupid, ball-less, and self-centered to realize the actions they want to take are at best representative democracies, and at worst fascist dictatorships.
Tankies are wonderful to learn to properly identify, because it makes it sooo much easier to discard them and look for real leftists instead of idiots who use the same words.
Trust me, you don't want those amenities in the hands of unelected greedy business men either.
Load shedding is still better than not having any electricity at all because it isn't profitable enough to manage the power net in your region.
At least the greedy business men have a business to run. The politicians just get bailed out and spend it on luxury cars
You live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, i.e. a liberal democracy where the bourgeoisie (owners of the means of production) dictate the laws.
State owned companies work for the interests of the ruling class, in this case the bourgeoisie, so you can bet it is subsidized by the people and the ruling class (and their businesses) benefit off it. (Socializing losses and privatizing profits)
If it was owned by say Elon Musk, it wouldn't be any different for the regular working class people. Only the relations between the bourgeoisie may change.
In other terms, he's at the more equal pig stage.
The working class should own the means, not the ruling class.
Is this a memes community? Or a soviet shit hole? I escaped reddit because it was shit and the ultra gatekeeping communists shitfaces, I hate to leave lemmy because of this as well, not many capitalists around this site -_-
I'm deeply sorry that we don't like supporting the oppression of marginalized groups here
Oppressing people is like 90% of what tankies that incorrectly insist they're Communists do.
FTFY.
Yes, as if communism doesnt support opressing literally everyone, you western "communists" are really special aren't ya?
How do you oppress everyone in an economic model focused on worker enfranchisement?
...or do you not know what communism means and just belive China, the USSR and DPRK when they say they're communist?
Sooo there aren't any examples of communism working but it totally is going to when done right! I could counter with "if capitalism was done right nobody would be oppressed and everyone would want for nothing".
This really isn't difficult stuff.
Communism is based on worker enfranchisement and abolition of the commodity form. Where is the inherent incentive for autocracy, and what examples would you care to cite?
Capitalism, on the other hand, naturally favours monopoly thanks to factors including economic power acting as political power, first mover advantage, and economies of scale. Capitalism has no inherent need to even be democratic. Your democracy is polluted by economic influence, your workplace is autocratic. What is there to get right that stops any of this?
... But more importantly, how do you oppress everyone in an economic model focused on worker enfranchisement?
Love how you just assume I'm from the west. I'm eastern european, my family is also, and we lived through everything - and I've yet to meet someone other than western investors and young kids who thinks things are good/better now
I'm genuinely curious - what do you think communism is? There's been a lot of definitions over the years and a lot of confusion over the subject, so I'm really interested to hear what do people such as yourself think communism really is that makes them hostile to the idea.
Myself? I like the dictionary definition of communism.
I'm short, worker enfranchisement and abolition of the commodity form.
Edit: Look at the definitely intellectually honest morons downvoting the dictionary definition of communism.
Does it matter what I think of it? You already wrote "misconceptions" , which means you already have an idea in mind that you think is right
Those damn communists with their
checks notes
Asking what your interpretation of the word is so they can actually discuss the concepts
Those bastards!
Completely unnecessary and hostile reaction ☹️
Different cultures, education, experiences and upbringings lead people to have different interpretations of and feelings towards various ideologies. IMO It is only fair for OC to establish the definition first, rather than unknowingly discuss something completely different with the other user.
Responses like this are why a shit ton of users on these platforms do your username and don't interact with anything
It was a genuine question, but if I've struck a nerve with that somewhere, then I'm sorry.
Hey pal, stress is bad for the body. Can be as bad as chain smoking if you have chronic stress.
Lemmy is full of leftists, and that looks like a trigger for ya. Just be safe out there.
Also, grouping all communists together is exceptionally inacurate. Lots of variety in leftism. Obviously, if you are discussing politics with a leftist they'll likely want to discuss the merits of "socialist ideals" with you.
