https://cutie.city/@studiofox/110589046985316774
So the billionaires’ families are gonna get billed for all of this like the time my family got billed for my ambulance ride, right? Right?
What really makes me angry is that media is full of some millionaires drowning in a rattle can steered with a 30$ Logitech controller while there are 100s of people drowning in the Mediterranean Sea every week because they are illegally pushed back by authorities and media is silent about it...
What do you mean, the media is silent about this? There's tons of articles about that exact thing.
But for the last 4 days the very top of every newsanchors' headline was something else. Probably that's what he means.
Has to do more with end user. People want the mystery: are they alive, are they dead, did they implode, are they floating on the surface some where. If they are alive there's a million questions about it. It's just the way of the beast.
I also think it has to do with proximity - this happened close to "home".
People are also stupid, some of the questions they were asking and stating that it's a conspiracy because if the titanic is still whole how did a sub implode because they arent sure how a pressurized chamber works is astounding.
To follow that, they probably don't know where Greece is.
There has been a lot of coverage, yes, but media didn't make as much noise... the stories about migrants drowning was soon banned to page 7-13 on local newspapers... while this millionaire drama is all over the media for days now...
That kinda makes sense though, since there was no ongoing rescue/recovery operation to talk about. There's only so many articles you can write about a bunch of people drowning.
Oh, you could write a lot. About the organization that pushed the people back into the water. About the politicians that sanctioned this. About the lives of those people who drowned. About the process of drowning. You can pretty much write a book about this. But no. It's immigrants, that's normal right?
Fair enough, but I would argue that a lot of these things are more general and not necessarily specific to this incident itself, so they are not really breaking news in that sense.
A million seconds is 11 eleven days, a billion seconds is 31 years
Always remember that difference to have a filling of how filthy rich billionaires are
My favourite version of this is "the difference between a million and a billion is about a billion"
I had never heard this one before, and it seems like a fantastic way to explain it to family members
Search and rescue with hopes they can be found vs people already dead will win in media 10 out of 10 times.
They are illegaly coming too. Also media is silent about this? It is the only thing they talk about.
They are forced out of their countries. I get your opinion if it is about young people just looking for work. This is also happening. But there are mothers and babies and kids among those people. They don't go onto a rubber boat for fun. I bet you wouldn't care about laws if the live of your family is in danger. And even if it is illegal, can you explain how it is ok to push them back into the water and let them drown? Mothers and their kids?
They are forced out of their countries.
What prevents them from seeking safety in the first safe country? Egypt etc, there are no civil wars there
Usually, because they know a second language, but the first safe country they pass through doesn't use that language, or because they've got a relative living legally in a different country that they think can help them.
That doesn't change the fact that international law tells them to seek the first safe country. If you go further you are an illegal immigrant, and over the last 8 or so years I lost absolutely all of my empathy towards those people.
or because they’ve got a relative living legally in a different country that they think can help them.
Then get a visa and go the legal way.
international law tells them to seek the first safe country
This is not true at all. It's not a requirement of the Convention on the Status of Refugees or any other international law.
Ever tried to get a visa? It takes a lot of time and money, and people in these situations have neither.
I've never heard of any international law that states as such. A quick search listed the agreements between the US and Canada, as well as the Dublin III agreement in the EU, both of which have exceptions for family members, but neither of these are all-encompassing international laws or would prohibit what's being described here.
If this is like it is in the US, which I suspect it is, they often don't know it is illegal. They paid everything they had to a group that promised them legal status and a safe journey. It's gangs running these operations.
Not likely. The pirates probably aren't on the boat, only expendable mules. Once the victims are on the boat they have their cash.
The master of a ship at sea as the moral and legal obligation to assist a ship in distress, if they can. There's no skirting that obligation by assessing the legality of the ship's planned path.
But maybe we should also stop rescuing people in house fires, as they might be burglars?
That's gotta be the most brilliant way I've ever heard of pulling off a burglary. Just start a fire :D
Practically speaking, not really, because the jail time for Arson is a lot more than burglary.
Not informed on this particular instance but 90% of illegal immigration to western countries happens because the US, UK, France, or etc, fucked up the migrants' origin country one way or another. A perfect example of this is the US: most immigrants are from places fucked up by either the US overthrowing any left-wing Latin American government, or by awful US drug policy. Most nations not only have a moral responsibility to migrants as fellow humans, but they are usually directly responsible for those migrants wanting to leave their homelands to begin with.
They are forced out of their countries. I get your opinion if it is about young people just looking for work. This is also happening. But there are mothers and babies and kids among those people. They don't go onto a rubber boat for fun. I bet you wouldn't care about laws if the live of your family is in danger. And even if it is illegal, can you explain how it is ok to push them back into the water and let them drown? Mothers and their kids?
It will probably be the company that owns the sub that get's billed. Given that the founder and CEO of the company was the pilot of the sub the company will probably declare bankruptcy.
Similar kind of stuff happens all the time, where public institutions bear the cost and consequences of private enterprises. Good example of a not too dissimilar situation was Memorial Hospital during Katrina, where instead of sending private helicopters and rescue, the firm that owned the hospital opted to wait for "free" US government rescue.
Privatize the profits, but socialize the losses.
There is a coast guard where the titanic sank but not where the immigrant ship sank near greece?
I don't know many details on the loss there so I do not know if they were able to be saved or if they would have been assumed dead before the coast guard could have responded. Maybe the coast guard there just doesn't care?
Can't really compare either of these situation because they differ too much. Ask the Greek coast guard why they didn't make an effort.
There's a Sea Shepherd ship captain, Pia Klemp, facing twenty years in an Italian prison because she rescued drowning migrants. Because, in government terms, by bringing them to safety on land she smuggled aliens into Italy.
And she's just one of the most well known cases in the West. A fisherman in Greece got 280 years in prison for piloting a single ship of migrants to shore after the actual smugglers fled the ship.
Saying the governments of Italy, Greece, Turkey, etc, don't care about migrant lives understates the situation. They want migrants to die at sea, and they punish people who bring them to land.
Allegedly, they sort of just let it happen:
Maybe ignorant, idk. But it baffles me that 5 people doing something stupid in international water get a massive rescue yet a boat trying to find a place to dock with hundreds of people does not.
Though by know i have heard mixed info that there where some rescue attempts but also that some captain supposedly got fines for trying to rescue.
My point of view is the billionaires were doing something stupid and that's the point. People love that. That's why there is so much media coverage. And there are so many bad things happening right now, why do people have to pick one and then hey, why don't you look at this!??! It's not that it's not bad; it's a bad thing that needs attention, and that's I accepted. But it's not as fun as looking at billionaires doing something stupid, right?
Your argument for an immoral mismanaging of funds by the world politics is it generates clicks?
The media is ti blame to frame it as a funny thing rather then a display of classcism showing that if you are rich enough armyswill try to rescue you no matter what you did.
We can laugh about it but we are just the internet and humor is a way to cope.
I see your point, and I am not arguing with it. But if you ask why they are not covering the bad things or the more concerning things? The answer, as you just said it's not generating clicks. They will cover the things we should know from time to time, but when a very juicy hot funny topic is out there, they gonna cover that first.
Where I live if you fall and injure yourself on an established hiking/climbing route, in season, you will be rescued for free (regular ambulance rides are free anyway).
If you climb or hike off track, out of season you might be charged for a helicopter ride or mountain rescue. As you can imagine it's not cheap.
That should be on case in all of Europe (in Germany and Italy for sure). It's covered but your insurance as long as there is an emergency. So you can't just use the ambulance as a taxi, then you would be billed the whole amount.
I was only once in an ambulance in the past 30 years or so. There, my insurance came to me afterwards and billed me a 10€ share. For some reason I found this infuriating. (Germany)
Not entirely in the Netherlands. There you have a yearly mandatory "eigen risico" of €385 (or more if you want a discount on health insurance). The first costs you make, you have to pay out of pocket. Only after you've exceeded the €385 in a year will the insurance start covering the costs.
We call that a "deductible". Mine is $1200. So it's more than yours, but it's not quite the same as having to pay for everything out of pocket.
But it's worth noting that (at least here in the US), once you've paid the $1200, you often still have to pay 10 to 20% of costs (called a co-pay). A single serious incident (emergency hospitalization, for example) could easily still cost hundreds or even thousands.
There is also an out of pocket maximum with regards to that "co pay" or "co insurance". My annual out of pocket maximum for co-pay and co-insurance is $2500.
This seems quite reasonable to me, and if you are doing the more risky activities, then presumably you'd get some insurance to take the edge off the rescue charges.
So basically if you do something stupid to put yourself in that situation, you have to pay for the rescue. Something like say going to the bottom of the ocean in a Jerry rigged tin can with limited communication functionality and piloted using a cheap off brand Xbox controller?
If I take an unregistered, uncertified, uninsured vehicle to a place that has no roads and I get myself in a huge pickle out there, you can bet your ass I will be billed for the rescue. And probably fined on top of it for fuckin up the environment in the process.
Also as a hiker, I have a satellite comms device in case my ass needs rescued. And I have SAR insurance, because my ass cannot afford the bill.
Remeber that time a couple wanted to sail around the world, bought a boat but didn't know how to sail rally, took their newborn on it, then had to get rescued at sea? People were pissed about the cost of that rescue, calling the couple dumb and entitled and whatnot. I think they had to pay some of the rescue cost back. Personally I don't know that I'm wild about charging people for rescues, it's hard to draw a line between legitimate adventure travel, say hiking in a national park, and a reckless stunt.
I haven't landed at a position on it either, but I could definitely see how if people understood they had to pay at least some portion of the rescue costs, they will try to be more educated and prepared when venturing out into the wild/at sea. Its extremely important to take this stuff seriously and too many people already treat nature like a joke and get themselves in terrible situations cause they just know a helicopter can come pick them up*
In my state we have a stupid motorist law that bills the driver if the drive into a flooded wash and need to get rescued. This typw of law should apply. Accidents are Accidents. But if you willfully ignore safety regulations and signage you get the bill.
Stepping outside is ignoring your safety. Walking a stair is dangerous. Being alive is deadly.
The fallacy of the beard makes the mistake of claiming that blurred lines between things means that categories are useless.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argument-of-the-Beard
This is off topic, but I love that I'm already finding links to concepts I didn't know about. It's a good sign that using the fediverse as an alternative to Reddit will actually work!
Stepping outside is ignoring your safety.
Home is the most dangerous place. The person most likely to kill or assault you lives in the house with you.
If this is referring to the submarine rescue, generally-speaking, rescue efforts by the US Coast Guard or the Park Service or the like are paid for by the government. Interestingly, at least for the Park Service, this is the opposite of the situation with Europe, where it's common to have rescue insurance if one is heading out into the wilderness hiking or whatnot. This is the reverse of the situation with medical services.
Tbf if its proven the titan wasn't up to regulation it should 100% be the company that build the sub that needs to be held accountable. If not the bill should go to whatever got the rescue people involved. Then the insurance that covered such exotic and dangerous ride. (Just like i had insurance when i went to see the pyramids). If its not any above the above than it means the passengers took 100% responsibility and the families should pay up.
Hundereds of immigrants died this week on a ship, no one gave a fuck. Not a penny spend.
I am hoping someone more informed then me can do a comparison how long we could provide shelter and food to those immigrants with that amount of spend money. The internet cant enforce fair economic treatment between the classes but we can call out the hypocrisy.
There was already an article that basically said they will be immune from any lawsuits. They operated in international waters outside the scope of any laws or regulations on how the submersible needed to be rated. I hope they can find grounds to sue them and kill the company, maybe they will be open to civil lawsuits?
Apparently it covers their ass since they would only be held liable if they misrepresented the dangers. Since they mention death 3 times on the first page, I don't think they did.
https://news.northeastern.edu/2023/06/22/oceangate-submarine-lawsuit/
These people were billionaires. We've learned that there are pretty much only consequences if you mess with rich peoples money. What happens if you murder a bunch of them through negligence?
I think they will find a way to destroy this company and all of these people involved no matter what form that takes.
The submersible was a boat on a ship the ship.may be bound by imo or it's flag star rules. I work in maritime software. regulation around Solas and imo rules are mental I mean we only moved ships off xp in last few years as the xp for embedded systems had been thoroughly tested and type approved, e.g. two 90day test runs
https://news.northeastern.edu/2023/06/22/oceangate-submarine-lawsuit/
Coming from a legal expert that is smarter than me. Shrug
Even though one may be in international waters, that doesn't mean there are no rules. I believe you still have to follow the laws of your home port.
Pretty sure coast guard did step in to help the ship, but the ship was hiding from authority. Once the call went up because was there. Like the RNLI rescue small boats in English channel. (Somthing some.idiots on the right are claiming is reason not to give to the charity)
As far as I know, there were no regulations the submersible company were obligated to follow, so the families of the billionaires, who signed waivers informing them of that fact, should be held accountable as well.
"there were no regulations" In therms of building a specialized craft to take people to a landmark icon of history on the bottom of the ocean is the most disconnected elitism thing i have ever read. I can't even jump in the ocean in the sea whenever/wherever i want because of regulations.
I would have expected that the owner of the submarine pieces would be footing the bill for this. After all, he is at the head of this fuck-up.
I wonder to what extent the massive imbalance in news coverage was simply super wealthy families handing journalists pre-written pieces so that laziness would dictate this result (rather than the journalists doing this naturally, although laziness is natural enough I guess).
I wish. But what I know of the current affair of things, I can only hypothesize two outcomes:
The benefit after the costs of potential rescue, and now the discovery of 5 recognizable pieces of the craft, will be a learning moment and there will be more regulation of deep sea diving for tourism in the near future. And the families of the victims will say that's enough and probably name the legislation after one, or a few of the victims.
The family of the victims will make sure OceanGate will never build another deep sea vessel ever again. This one will depend on the legal logistics. Just like how some airlines caused airliner crashes due to pure negligence, some of the first-class families weren't able to sue them into non-existence due to international airspace and/or waters protections.
Because either of those two things are what typically happens in such a scenario. At least lately.
- The benefit after the costs of potential rescue, and now the discovery of 5 recognizable pieces of the craft, will be a learning moment and there will be more regulation of deep sea diving for tourism in the near future. And the families of the victims will say that's enough and probably name the legislation after one, or a few of the victims.
There are already regulations, the problem is that once they go to the ocean there are international waters so they are not required to follow them. That's exactly what the cocky CEO did. He was vocal that regulations "impair innovation" and "it is not as dangerous".
- The family of the victims will make sure OceanGate will never build another deep sea vessel ever again. This one will depend on the legal logistics. Just like how some airlines caused airliner crashes due to pure negligence, some of the first-class families weren't able to sue them into non-existence due to international airspace and/or waters protections.
From what I understand they don't really have much assets, the CEO was the guy with the vision and is now dead, the company reputation is ruined. Even if the families wouldn't go after them it is unlikely the company will exist.
It is possible that those people will look for jobs in other similar companies, but hopefully under somebody who is more sensible and listens to experts.
I got a $2000 bill for an ambulance. And then kept getting nickel and dimed by them for $200, $100 charges for the next two years. The whole system is screwed up.
Oh this is when their lawyers turn around and point out they were doing some kind of scientific “research” on behalf of someone’s pet charity organization so it’s all exempt and they pay zero.
Have you seen the statement made by the company itself? It keeps going on about how they were adventurers, explorers, frontiers in ocean exploration, bla bla bla.