Living conditions in Ukraine are resembling a new slavery, a triumph of Western 'democracy' in the 21st century

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In early August, deputies of the Ukraine president's 'Servant of the People' party in the national legislature ('Rada') introduced a bill that provides for the conscription of forced labor of all those who have not been conscripted to the armed forces. Formally free citizens who already cannot legally leave the country due to wartime restrictions will now also be subjected to forced labor.

This was really inevitable, yeah.

Candelestine

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So uh, what do you expect them to do when invaded by a foreign army?

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To be allowed to migrate and seek asylum because the people don't want to die in the front for a piece of land? That's exactly what I would want if it were me. Would you want to be conscripted for forced labour with the risk of getting sent to the front lines because of some war you don't want to be part of? And if you say "they definitely want to be part of it," then explain why the draft and conscription are needed in the first place.

Candelestine

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No, I didn't ask what "you would want". I mean I want a million dollars, but wanting things is easy.

I asked what should they do? What should their country do?

What would you do if you were their absolute ruler? Surrender?

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Well, if they're democratic they should let the people (in which case my self-insert would apply) decide what to do. But a reasonable government could, for example, negotiate an immediate ceasefire and acquiesce to the winning side's demands to prevent further bloodshed. Or it could grab teenagers off the street and tentative migrants and send them to their deaths. Obviously, I already know that the Ukrainian government and their NATO allies prefer the latter, but we shouldn't pretend there weren't other options.

Edit:

What would you do if you were their absolute ruler? Surrender?

Well, yes? Assuming I give even half a fuck about people's lives, I'd prefer a negotiated peace instead of this shitshow any day. Russia's demands aren't even that hard to meet, they're just dragging this out for profit at this point.

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also I feel like ukraine should have just let the separatist regions be independent, and not try to erase them from the face of the earth

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I usually don't spring that one on them because I'm pretty sure that a lot of Ukraine enjoyers don't actually know about the Donbas war. It'd be a while to explain, so I try to meet them in the middle a bit, but yes, that would have been the absolute best decision back in 2014.

TransplantedSconie

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It's a lemmygrad stooge. He wants them to drop their weapons, be slaughtered and raped by the glorious army of the tzar, and have Ukraine be given up as a tribute to the new Russian empire. The world has allowed past Russian rulers to slaughter millions before, why not now?

Candelestine

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It doesn't really matter who it is. I want to hear what he thinks a smart idea would be, from him.

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Even though we don't agree on these things, I think that's a nice thing of you to say. Thanks!

Durotar

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I don't think that you fully understand what's happening. This is not Call of Duty. Leave any internal political issues until the end of the war. Right now, you're helping Russia.

Dum

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He WANTS to help Russia... Don't feed the troll.

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So are we just supposed to allow (heck, even support!) Ukraine despite them implementing a system of modern slavery for their people, blocking civilians from fleeing, and forced conscription, some of it even slated to last even beyond the end of the war, because to even criticise it is "helping Russia"? Helping Russia do what, exactly? Look better than Ukraine? That's on Ukraine to be the big boy.

This is not Call of Duty, a war is waged for political reasons, and therefore the politics of it should be laid bare.

Durotar

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They are not implementing a system of modern slavery, they're protecting their country and fighting for their lives.

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I'm quoting again:

The new draft law on the mobilization of workers is intended to "ensure the functioning of the national economy under martial law", in the words of those drafting the law. It is noteworthy that in early August, Ukraine began to talk about a likely ban against military conscripts leaving the country for three years following an eventual end to military hostilities and martial law. Just such a proposal was recently made by Vadym Denysenko [...], head of the Ukrainian Institute for the Future and a former advisor to the head of the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs. Denysenko said, "I am sure that even after the war it will be necessary to extend the ban on men traveling abroad for at least another three years. Otherwise, we simply will not survive as a nation."

Please illuminate me in your wisdom, how banning people from leaving while conscripting them to either fight in the front or forced labour is not a form slavery. Whose lives are being saved by arresting people trying to flee the country?

hypelightfly

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Yes, you should support Ukraine. No it's not slavery.

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Care to elaborate? AFAIK, forced labour under the threat of harm and no conditions for escape fits very well into most modern definitions of slavery. But go on, why should I support Ukraine despite this?

hypelightfly

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They are being invaded.

But you don't care about that, you're a tankie who defends genocide.

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I don't follow. Yes, they are at war. How does that justify labour conscriptions and banning fleeing? I do care about people not dying and having dignity, you see. But sending teenagers into slaughter or forcing them to work to that same slaughter industry doesn't help anybody. It is basically a self-genocide by the Ukrainian government. No wonder that it started as a war against eastern Ukrainians.

Who here exactly defends genocide when the only thing I want in this war is for the suicidal tactics of the Ukrainian government to pause for a second so that civilians can flee and live better lives elsewhere? But you don't care about that, you're a liberal who will justify every war crime from your favourite North Atlantic countries and their puppet governments, under the guise of empathy.

See, 2 can play that game of ad hominem. Answer the question: "How is this not comparable to a modern slave state?"

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You're excusing the genocide of the separatist regions and making up nonsense about this being ww2 2.0. You're the real genocide denier.

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oh my god you're one of those idiots

GregorGizeh

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Literally every single country on this planet will do this when forced to fight a defensive war.

Civil liberties are fine and well but in wartime that goes out the window real quick regardless of ideological orientation of the government.

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Russia is bombing Ukrainian civilians non stop, but yeah, let's blame the West for bad living conditions. Unbelievable.

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The new draft law on the mobilization of workers is intended to "ensure the functioning of the national economy under martial law", in the words of those drafting the law. It is noteworthy that in early August, Ukraine began to talk about a likely ban against military conscripts leaving the country for three years following an eventual end to military hostilities and martial law.

How exactly is Russia's bombs the only factor in the Ukrainian government imposing labour conscription on their people? Surely if they're so democratic, they could've found some other way to go about fixing the labour shortage.

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You really don't see how it's a consequence of the invasion?

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We can go all the way back to Gorbachev and we won't find a single root cause of this present situation, but instead many different factors. But I see no reason to assume that the Russian SMO on the DPR and LPR is the sole, deterministic cause of this labour conscription, disregarding all agency of the Ukrainian government and NATO on their own internal policy matters. Japan might've started the war against the USA in WW2, but I don't think it removes the agency of the USA government from putting their Japanese-Yankee citizens in internment camps or nuking Japan twice.

What the other comment seems to imply is that all the issues there are caused solely by Russia's participation in the Donbas War, disregarding how the article goes in detail about how those things listed (such as the labour draft) are policies made by the Ukrainian government. It is clear as day that the Ukrainian government values retaking the east and privatising its property much more than the lives of the citizens they claim to protect.

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We can go all the way back to Gorbachev and we won’t find a single root cause of this present situation

Russian imperialism, there you go. It's both funny and sad how you communists get so blinded by the US hate that you automatically go for "Russia good", even though it's an authoritarian kleptocracy with no relationship to communism.

What the other comment seems to imply is that all the issues there are caused solely by Russia’s participation in the Donbas War

Yes, that's the prime determinant of the current situation.

It is clear as day that the Ukrainian government values retaking the east

Ukrainian government is still fighting for the existence of the Ukrainian state and against genocide of the Ukrainian identity.

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Russian imperialism, there you go.

Wow, I had never considered before that Russia might be in the war. \s

Yeah, if you see every geopolitical conflict this simplistically, you'll often find that the exact group you already dislike is the cause of all your problems. There's no other way this could've gone, the moment Putin got in power we could already all predict that Zelensky would be elected and that his government would ban all men aged 18 to 60 from fleeing the conflict. It was also similarly inevitable that there would be mass conscriptions not only for war but also for work. Tangentially nobody but Putin had any impact on whether Azov would be formed or on the war against the Donbas separatists.

This was all solely the fault of a single group and nothing anybody else could've done. Come on now, child, you know that politics is not as simple as that. And if you think I somehow think that "Russia good," because I criticise the other side of the war, you might need to read some history of bourgeois wars. It's a reactionary liberal bourgeois country, just like the USA, but much smaller, less entrenched, and with some opposing interests, if you want my opinion on them. It's not really relevant though.

Yes, that’s the prime determinant of the current situation.

So could Ukraine not find other solutions to their present crises? Off the top of my head, accepting Russia's ceasefire requests, letting their civilians leave and not demanding that every worker also present their conscription documents in order to work, all sound like pretty good initiatives to combat the labour shortage. But no, obviously the Ukrainian govt has no agency on their own country and it's all only in Russia's court.

Ukrainian government is still fighting for the existence of the Ukrainian state and against genocide of the Ukrainian identity.

No they aren't. The Ukraine state has had it's existence guaranteed by Russia so long as they concede defeat and allow the independence of the eastern separatists. Besides that, just also not joining NATO. Russia has shown very little interest in annexing the entirety of Ukraine and the Ukrainian identity is safe and sound within the conscript dictatorship of Ukraine. If anything, the NATO puppet government probably has more Ukrainian blood on their hands than Russia for insisting on this lost war for the past 1 year.

But do spell it out then. How is Ukraine's draft only Russia's fault, with no responsibility for it at the Ukrainian government's/NATO's feet? I'd be happy to hear it.

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There’s no other way this could’ve gone

Of course, it could have gone differently. Putin's mother could find a different lover and the world would look differently. Putin's mother is therefore one of the causes, just like the infinite amount of other factors.

What you're doing now is the equivalent of analyzing why a certain woman got raped. Factor 1, she's single, no husband to protect her, factor 2, she went to the club, factor 3 she wore a short skirt .... You're desperately trying to analyze the "factors" to shift the attention, and the blame from the rapist.

So could Ukraine not find other solutions to their present crises?

"So could the woman do something differently to avoid being raped?"

Again, victim blaming.

The Ukraine state has had it’s existence guaranteed by Russia so long as they concede defeat and allow the independence of the eastern separatists.

And the "de-nazification", de-militarization, ceding Kherson and Zaporozhija Oblast in addition to Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, no NATO or other protection. You end up with a rump state just like Czechoslovakia after Munich decree, helpless and ready to be re-invaded (March 1939).

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my god you're daft.

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Putin’s mother is therefore one of the causes, just like the infinite amount of other factors.

This war would happen with or without putin, the war is due to the collapse of the soviet union, the far right Ukrainian coup, and the Ukrainian government bombing their own people for almost a decade.

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boosting to make this appear on hexbear active

InvaderDJ

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It's a fair question to ask. Any time civil liberties are curtailed, there should be questioning. There should be coverage.

But in a case of a smaller country being invaded by a world power, their options might just be use every tool available or accept losing their sovereignty because a more powerful nation wants their land. And we also need to acknowledge that and say it out loud. If you don't think the war and loss of civil rights is worth protecting their sovereignty and the right to be a country, admit that up front. That it sucks, but that you think the benefits outweigh the costs.

My one question would be, was there a vote to fight a defensive war when Ukraine was invaded? Is that something invaded countries even do? I'm honestly asking the question. Because if there was a fair and free vote, and the majority voted to defend their land, then it seems like they're fine with it.

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AFAIK there was no such vote, but even if there was it would not have counted the separatist regions of Donbas. That's the main issue with this war, it was already ongoing in some form long before Russia invaded last year, going on since around 2014. Since the invasion, the government has also declared there will be no elections and started banning or even arresting the opposition (like the communist party).

The situation of democracy in Ukraine right now is incredibly shaky at best, which is why a lot of people (like me) criticise the government a lot. I understand that it'd be hard to have a referendum on the initial marshal law, but banning all adult men from even emigrating, and sometimes sending those who try to escape anyway back to the front, is to me a serious abuse by the government. IIRC During the start of the war, they also relied a lot on volunteers for the military, but now they've turned a lot to drafting civilians, which doesn't bode well for how many people actually want to fight. But it's really hard to get proper statistical data from Ukraine due to the aforementioned marshal law.

Being in the military reserve myself against my will, I deeply believe that nobody should be forced into military service. Not only does it sound really inefficient to have uninterested personnel, but it also is a gigantic breach on a person's rights and can mentally and physically scar them for life, not to mention the risk of death.

Xoriff

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Lemme just summarize the comment section for anybody else who comes along.

Russian apologist: Ukraine bad.
Replies: No. Unprovoked war makes things bad.

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We don't need to know what "bad" means, right? Ukraine is bad due to some magical inherent property, not because of instituting drafts and migration bans, right? I am of the position that the war (which wasn't necessarily unprovoked to begin) wasn't the main cause of those things I am criticising, the government proposing those is the one at fault. I think that framing is at least a bit more complete than just "Ukraine bad."

And never mind calling critical people Russian apologists, like one can't hold critical views of both sides of a conflict.

walklikeanegyptian

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Would you conscript people to fight in a revolution against the bourgeoisie?