https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733
Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin killed in plane crash in Russia, with nine other people on board also dead
His plane has crashed and he's on the passenger list, but it's not proven yet that he was on the plane. He's the person, who faked his death in the past.
It seems like oddly coincidental timing that Russia also officially relieved Surovikin as head of the airforce today (he still hasn't been seen since the mutiny): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/23/russia-removes-sergei-surovikin-as-head-of-aerospace-forces
Not saying he's definitely dead, but I doubt this is him faking his own death so much as him slipping an assassination attempt if he's alive.
Imagine blowing up a $5M Embraer just to fake his own death - and kill others in the process.
I'm sure Putin's chef had money lying around, but burning all that cash sounds a little desperate to me.
Aren't airplane "accidents" more of a traditional CIA method? Not saying it was them, but from Putin I would expect poison or window.
Or maybe this is how Prigozhin decided to disappear. He may be on a beach in the Caribbean drinking a piña colada for all we know.
It's funny how nobody actually believes this was an accident.
Wait, am I reading this right that the plane was shot down by russian air defence? If this is backed up at all by anything like a russian source, then this will just further enforce option that russia can not be trusted to do anything it says and that putin is weak and threatened (both are true but I thought the kremlin would at least try to say/show otherwise).
How does russia keep messing up this bad? I am constantly shocked and awed.
Yeah, a pointless one that makes them look like predictable idiots. Most will not be unhappy at his death and those that would be are on russia's side of this conflict. This (if it is what it looks like now) is like making a martyr just for assholes.
I guess they were afraid falling out of window was to obvious ? Not dramatic enough?
I’ve never been to Russia but either the windows are awful or Putin is killing people.
Putin is killing people and the purpose of the window assassinations is meant to be clearly not an accident. The whole point is to send a message, not to try and fool people.
If this is backed up at all by anything like a russian source
The Guardian is reporting this:
The cause of the crash was not immediately clear, but Prigozhin’s longstanding feud with the military and the armed uprising he led in June would give ample motive to the Russian state for revenge. Media channels linked to Wagner quickly suggested that a Russian air defence missile had shot down the plane.
I am lost and this is a reply to my own statement. May I ask you to expand on what a "lib" is, how I erred to be labelled as one, and finally how it is you think I care about aesthetics?
Just in case this is somehow genuine...
A 'Lib' is a liberal.
You didn't err, hexbear users outside their instance are typically trolling at best and spreading actual tankie (authoritarian communists) talking points at worst.
They will call anyone that isn't so far left that they're able to give the far right a reach around a 'liberal', even if liberalism (aside from Neoliberal economics) is traditionally on the 'left' side of the political divide.
Can't speak for anyone else but I may be able to answer this.
A lib is a liberal, someone who is pro-capital, not an anti-capitalist (very little overlap with how liberal tends to be defined in ordinary language in the US). Optics, relating to how people see the event, is idealism not materialism. Liberalism is idealist, unlike Marxism, which is materialist.
The dig at liberalism and aesthetics is likely a critique of the implication that what this looks like has much to do with the material reality. That's an aesthetic argument. It doesn't matter what this looks like because the optics don't affect the material relations. Someone who elevates the optics at the expense of the material relations is making an idealist, likely a liberal argument.
Hence the comment embodying an aesthetic argument of the kind that liberals often make.
You're welcome. I'm glad you're taking this in the spirit in which it's intended. When Marxists criticise idealism, the target is the liberal world outlook, not the individual.
By implication, really. Focusing on what people think of Russia's/Putin's trustworthiness rather than on it's record or the factors that would keep it honest, so to speak. It's Ukraine that violated Minsk, apparently prompted by France, Germany, and 'NATO'. Looking at the optics, that seems a little more duplicitous than assassinating someone who attempted a coup (if this was an assassination and if what happened before can be called a coup).
Would I trust a single person, e.g. Putin to uphold an international agreement? It doesn't matter. It's not a one-man show. War is expensive and the longer it goes on for the more expensive it becomes, in support as well as the cost of arms, soldiers, etc.
Nobody has to trust Putin. An agreement would be maintained because material factors require it to be maintained. What westerners think it's by-the-by. (I'm assuming you're not Russian as you were asking about Russian sources—I'm not asking you to confirm or deny as I don't want you to dox yourself; I'm just trying to give an answer that makes sense from the available evidence.)
Eh, it's debatable. He had already shipped Wagner off to Belarus and folded the Wagner troops into the Belarus military, so Wagner was pretty effectively de-fanged at that point. The only thing Putin gained by this was sending a message to anyone else that decided to stand up to him, although if anyone still didn't understand that Putin tends to assassinate people who displease him they haven't been paying attention since like 1980 when Putin was still actually KGB. This is very on brand for Putin, although it is a bit novel to apparently go with airplane "crash" rather than his usual standbys of poisoning, "falling" out of windows, or tripping down flights of stairs/elevator shafts and landing on bullets.
On the other hand, it does make Putin look scared and weak that he felt the need to assassinate someone who he had already effectively defeated, without needing to fire a shot at that. I still wonder how he pulled that off. He must have either had some seriously damning dirt on Prigozhin, or else made him one hell of a deal to get him to about face and march right out of Russia. Maybe Putin just straight up threatened to nuke him if he got any closer to Moscow and he decided not to try to call Putin's bluff.
I'm fully expecting Russian media to explain how those evil Ukranians sneaked a missile battery or a fighter jet into Moscow airspace and shot down a plane that just happened to contained Putin's mortal enemies.
Nonsense. India and ruzzia both made it to the moon. The ruzzians just did it more aggressively.
When it’s hard to toss a man out of a window. Or shoot or poison him. Just down his plane. Easy.
Perhaps he's wondering why you would shoot a man before throwing him out of an airplane?
This had nothing to with simplicity. It had everything to do with the Kremlin executing him and his entourage mafia style.
I'm loving all the tankie tears in here. They don't know who to support. LOL. I love how ruZZia is slowly eating its own tail and destroying itself, just typical of a fascist state. Slava Ukraini! Slava NATO!
I just think it's amusing how easily they out themselves as kneejerk anti-west reactionaries with support of Russia, which is a country even more opposed to their alleged ideals.
I'd like to hear more about these countries that are more opposed to our ideals than the imperialist core. Sounds like fascinating fiction.
I don't know what tankies you've seen, lil fasc, but it was always understood among us that Prigozhin was only useful as long as he was under control. An ancap with a personal army running around unchecked isn't something you'll catch me supporting. I just wish this was done more effectively, without loosing control of the orchestra.
Hexbear be like. The terminally online left makes me ashamed to share leftist sensibilities. Say what you want but political opponents don't "dissapear" in the West. We're fascists maybe, but the lesser evil atm. Once Putin (who let me remind you all has access to nukes) is done for, we can talk about NATO.
Never discount that a deal was reached and this was their way or his way of going in retirement with a new identity - faked death.
What's in it for Putin? Why would he be giving favors like that to someone who turned his troops against Moscow? He made Putin look like a fool.
So, why would he be giving him favors?
Only thing I am seeing on this is that two of Wagner's private jets were in the air, and one crashed over St. Petersburg while taking off from Moscow.
The other jet that belongs to him turned around and landed in Moscow airport after losing contact with the first. Which is pretty strange.
It is assumed that The leader Prigozhin and his 2nd in command were supposedly on board. As Russia state media is claiming they are dead.
However, Russia State Media has been lying quite a bit though this war, so it has to be taken with a grain of salt.
As of now 7 10 bodies have been found.
However, just day's earlier, Prigozhin was seen in Africa as if "announcing their services" to a developing situation. So why did he suddenly end up in Moscow? The one place he knows he isn't safe?!
Edit:
2:24pm
Wagner's media is also claiming they both died.
He has been flying around Russia quite a bit since the coup, clearly he thought he was safe.
Do I have to point out that this title is misleading? Don't get me wrong, I'd be glad if it were true... one less child killer roaming the world but if you read the article it hasn't been confirmed by western sources he was on that plane.
The current article title now:
Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead after Russia plane crash
People seem awfully quick to accept the narrative - it seems to me this would be the easiest way for him to disappear on his own terms.
I think the key thing is that there isn't really a compelling reason why Russia would want to take his death. And if prigozhin has actually just faked his death to go retire on an island somewhere, the result for the rest of the world is practically the same
Putin wanting him dead isn't a good enough reason? Putin has done everything so far for ego alone.
Russia could have reason to fake his death, but that would be only to facilitate them killing him in a more gruesome way.
Until he gets pulled out of retirement for one final stand. This is like the type of shit you'd see in a movie, it practically writes itself. Reality is stranger than fiction lol
I still think he's dead for real though.
How is a plane crash the "easiest way"? And why on earth would Putin do him the favor of providing a new identity? What does Putin gain from that?
no remain identifiable, etc. Putin doesn’t gain anything, but the dude presumably knows he was on the kill list so disappearing would be in his interest
At the same time, Grey Zone reported that a second business jet owned by Prigozhin had landed safely in the Moscow region.
Perhaps not gone.
However from memory they shot down some air force stuff on their way up during the mini mutiny, so I could see the Russian Air Force having it out for him.
