https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/30/world/moscow-city-drone-attack-sunday-russia-ukraine-intl-hnk/index.html
Russia says Ukraine targeted Moscow with drones on Sunday, the latest in a series of attacks that have brought the Ukraine war to Russia’s capital.
Russia says Ukraine targeted Moscow with drones on Sunday, the latest in a series of attacks that have brought the Ukraine war to Russia’s capital.
People can turn away from supporting a war pretty quickly when it suddently reaches your doorstep.
Yeah suddenly the "nazi" regime is "attacking". When you see yourselves as the heroic liberators, being attacked on your home turf comes across as evil aggression, instead of what it really is. 0.0001% of the pain you've inflicted being returned to you.
If there hadn't been a year of sons and husbands and fathers and grandfathers being more or less abducted by press gangs to become conscripts: Definitely.
But they know there is a war of aggression going on. And regardless of whether they support the war, they know this is retaliatory.
So the die hard supporters will likely support the war even more. But the vast majority of people will lose the ability to ignore it as "Just more Putin stuff. Praise great leader" and force people to pick a side. And the Russian people know they aren't going to benefit from the newly captured land and resources. The oligarchs will.
I know a decent number of mainland Chinese folk between grad school and extended family. They are in the same boat. Some support Winnie and others are just keeping their heads down. But they know they live in a batshit insane world of censorship and tend to not be too surprised on the rare occasions the outside world reaches in.
That was my take, given Putin history of the checyen false flag I was almost thinking false flag to get home support, it is only the fact Kyiv, while not actively admitting, still hint at responsible that changed mind. It does seem a odd tactic going for such a dense civilian heavily defended area for little advantage in stopping war machine.
That is not what has ever happened at any point in time historically, I actually can't think of a single example. When war is on the doorstep support for your own side typically hardens massively.
The times where populations have turned against wars have always been when the troops are fighting far away from home in lands that the home population feels they shouldn't be dying in.
This will only make people cling to support for the military because they rely on it for personal safety.
That is not what has ever happened at any point in time historically, I actually can’t think of a single example.
Russia in 1917
Mahkno? I'm fairly sure they walked under a very pirate-ey black flag back then.
Worth noting that the actual origin of the bisected red/black flag is the First International in 1864, which was both anarchist+communist before the split occurred between Marx and Bakunin. Anarchists would be banned from the future ones as a result of the split and disagreements that occurred. They flew the red flag alone from that point onwards.
That is not what has ever happened at any point in time historically, I actually can’t think of a single example.
There are countless historical examples of cities and nations surrendering without a fight when faced with attack. Just look at the Mongol conquests for an obvious starting point.
I would if I thought you were participating in the discussion good faith, but that's not something CCP tankies are capable of, so I guess go find a way through that firewall and google it yourself. You won't, though, because you guys have no interest in true facts.
Mate you're advocating for a genocide against civilians. That's not acceptable, and all you're doing by writing this stuff online is creating content that Russians read and think to themselves "wow, the west really are fascists that want to murder us all". It doesn't help, it ends up getting used to reinforce the propaganda.
They're the ones doing the genociding and supporting the genociding. They're the ones supporting the butchers of Bucha and the siege of Mariupol. They're the ones taking selfies in the ruins of Ukrainian homes for aesthetics.
What would you have done when the Nazis invaded Poland? Would you have wrung hands at the bombing of Dresden and Tokyo?
I made my choice. I joined the strategic nuclear fleet as an SSBN sailor. Sometimes the only language a nation will understand is force.
I’m claustrophobic so picked jumping out of planes instead but same idea. It’s fuckin wild to me that we spent 40 years arming up to fight Ivan and now half the country wants to hand them the keys to the football just to own the libs. They fucked around and are finding out that our old dusty shit off the shelf is eating them alive in properly motivated hands. Oh well
Slava Ukraini
Hooyah Airborne! You're braver than me, jumping out of a perfectly functional airplane. I'd rather get turned to plasma faster than I can register than plummet as my chute fails to deploy, but different strokes for different folks. Salute to your bravery. Good luck out in the field.
Heroyam Slava!
Well it gets ya out of the house, first in but first to creaky knees down stairs in your 30s. Hooah Boomer bubblehead, braver than I. Got a relative, carrier nuke who’s my same size and he has trouble with space all the time on a CVN as dude over 6 ft, I would lose my entire mind in a boat. Mad respect to you guys floating under ice caps for weeks, at least if I’m in a plane doin plane things and want to step outside I can just open a door and leave lol
Anyway I hope some of the whales floating around Putins dacha are powered by steam and coffee rather than krill…
Yes I absolutely would have wrung hands at the bombing of Dresden and Tokyo. I also absolutely oppose the nukes that were dropped, completely unnecessary and monstrous loss of life. I don't quite know what you're getting at with Poland, that could have been prevented if the French and English had accepted the Soviet offer to stop it pre-emptively.
We don't need to advocate for the murder of civilians. It's just obscene barbarism, and all it will lead to is more murder of civilians in response.
I joined the strategic nuclear fleet as an SSBN sailor
Ahh I see. That adequately explains bloodthirsty fashy barbarism and desire to murder civilians then.
So you're saying you're in support of appeasement of Nazis. How did that work out for Europe last time?
Sometimes the only way to get a fascist nation to stop is to bomb the ever living shit out of them until they stand the fuck down.
If you like Russia so much, why don't you move there? I'm sure the FSB will welcome you with open arms.
I didn't say either of those things. It's wild how much this community rags on twitter for outrage and assuming the worst possible position of anyone that is responding while that seems to be what this community does constantly.
Sometimes the only way to get a fascist nation to stop is to bomb the ever living shit out of them until they stand the fuck down.
Murdering civilians is not in fact how the nazis were stopped. Vastly out-producing them and outnumbering them in terms of armour was. I don't know why you think killing civilians is in any way strategically beneficial. Its main effective use is as a terror action against an occupied population.
This is just really disgusting bloodthirsty shit. The civilians have no less choice in this war than you did in Iraq or Afghanistan. But judging by your character I reckon I can assume you're actually proud of the 2million you killed there.
the only way to get a fascist nation to stop is to bomb the ever living shit out of them until they stand the fuck down
Let me tell you about fascism. The name comes from latin word Fasces, which is the name for a bunch of sticks wrapped around an axe, a tool used in ancient Rome to beat and execute those civilians who dare to stand against the government's imperial ambitions.
Then, it was adopted by fascist Italian government as a symbol of national unity by means of beating and executing those who stand against it. We know what happened then - they've tried to conquer the world.
Now, you're calling for bombing of the cities, and, therefore, causing deaths of innocent civilians in an attempt intimidate those who stand against your government's imperial ambitions.
Think about it, are you're saying that you should go fascist to beat fascists?
Mate I don't think most russian people are reading an obscure, western primarily english speaking social media site, and the ones that are are probably more likely to be against the war.
Oh of course there's not many reading here. But the point is that this behaviour should be opposed because its normalisation here means that the users go elsewhere and normalise it there too. This is prevalent all over the place because nobody bothers to call it out and point out how unhelpful it is.
Even Navalny's team, who I despise as the man's a fascist, has said the same thing I'm currently saying.
👋
It takes just one journalist to see it for it to be shown on national TV. But you're right, they are unlikely to see it on this relatively obscure social media site when there are thousands of literal nazis with ukrainian flags and checkmarks over at twitter X.com, they can just take one of their tweets X's instead.
Idk man, humans are wild. WW2 germany fought for a loooong time after the war had really been lost.
If your country decides to attack another country then your country is an agressor, but if the defending country comes and blows up the street in front of your home you don't think you'd feel like you need to defend not getting your home blown up?
Question isn't about attacking in Ukraine, question is about defending Russia from Ukranian attacks. Hence it would be a defensive motivator when your family is about to be bombed by Ukraine in Russia vs you invading Ukraine.
The damage is pretty mild compared to the ruins that Russia created with their missiles on major ukrainian cities. If moscovits are shaking bacause 10 windows of a single story got damaged, they are invited to ukraine and see what they are doing to the civil population there.
Any facts or verification that this was actually done by Ukraine? Seems like it’d be pretty on point for Russian propaganda to throw a few drones at themselves to whip up fervor. Not to mention the fact that it could’ve been done by partisans in Russia itself. I’d label either of those more likely than Ukrainian attacks on civilian infrastructure.
The fact that Ukraine claims responsibility is a pretty strong indicator. Who else do you think would have done it?
Sorry, I probably missed where the Ukrainian government/military of Ukraine claimed responsibility, I’ll have to go look for the official statement
The West insisted that their weapons are not to be used inside Russia. I don't think Ukraine would want to risk the supply of weapons for small political gains.
We told them to not point the 16s at Moscow, while giving them the keys to all the old armor collecting dust and built to fuck up russkies.
David is gonna stab Goliath every chance he gets
I feel pretty sus about this. Why was the videographer even recording at like 2am? At the last moment, the video went from a fluid motion of panning left and abruptly turning to the point of interest and then explosion. Seems like whoever recorded this already knew it was going to happen and just "happen" to record it.
This seems like Russian propaganda and an effort to mobilize the West.
Like, I get that seeing an explosion in your home city is scary. But the person recording that is acting like it's a surprise that the attacks came to their front door.
Fair, but also almost strangely off kilter comment? Idk. I hope when Russia bombs Ukranian cities no one gets hurt but that clearly doesn't happen. Hate to 'whatabout' you but one solid strike against Moscow is hardly triggering my sympathy for them.
Civilian deaths are bad no matter what side. Leave the soapboxing, armchair warrior stuff back at Reddit please and realize there's no room for nuance when discussing human, civilian life. Not every Russian is bad...
Get your centrist, inaction supporting take here boys, free for all, one per person please.
Can someone explain how they can fly drones that far?
Or is it someone stationed locally who's soing the control?
Wasn't there a point where if Ukraine took the fight and crossed the Russian border, that Nato and Ukraines supporters would withdraw their support?
Yes. The very first one of these suicide drone attacks Ukraine still denies it was them lol
I don't know anything about war, are attacks like this acceptable? Doesn't it risk killing civilians?
Agreed. Tit for tat doesn't begin to describe the "Tat" that Russia has been flinging into Ukraine.
Considering the whole “3 day op” stuff and looking at it like a David vs Goliath story…it’s pretty goddamn impressive we’re talking about Kyiv throwing shit into Moscow at all. Vlad wasn’t ready for the sunflower farmers to give him such a strong middle finger
Unfortunately they are, if enough justification exists. In WW2, both the Allies and Axis would bombard cities with civilians if those had any strategic value (military industries, disruption of logistics, sometimes because soldiers were inside the houses, etc).
Other times, it was to try out hypothesis. Germany started to bombard London to see if the population would become demoralised and demand the government to capitulate. The US sent the infamous Hiroshima and Nagasaki Nuclear Bombs, because they believed the japanese military would not capitulate through conventional means (I recommend reading more about the pacific war if you're interested, but the bottom line here is that most japanese soldiers were expected to fight to the death, and the US could not treat them like a western power. The nuclear bombs were a bet that they could avoid having to invade Japan itself)
And to be honest things didn't change that much since then. There might be more awareness of how awful it is, some countries might need better justifications than others before targeting cities, but they do it. The US did it in the middle east, Russia too, etc.
From my average joe point of view, this attack didn't target anything with strategic value, but the attack itself is a message that Ukraine can reach Moscow.
Not knowing anything about this war is honestly pretty ignorant of you. Its the most important war on the planet right now, you don't get to just bury your hed in the sand.
And boy - what a great way to ensure that nothing is learned!
Here's a post from someone trying to learn, and get a bit of context from more learned people, and you just shit all over them?
Shameful.
Thanks at least for showing me that actually - the feddeverse isn't for me. Ta ta!
You should stay, mercuryuprising should leave if they want to make this a place that doesn't encourage learning or asking questions.
Great job people. Let's congratulate people on targeting civilians during a war. Clap clap clap.
Great discourse. Thumbs up. Just the kind of mental capacity to applaud trying to kill civies.
Hard to know who to support - the country that launched a drone attack on a government building, got their drone deflected and hit a civilian building, or the country that invaded the other one, raped and slaughtered their citizens, men, women and children alike, bombed their infrastructure to oblivion, and also shoots their own forced conscripts when the conscripts realise the meat grinder they've been send to and surrender or retreat.
Easy choice for some people to make, hard choice for some other people, like you, to make.
Or you can not be a hypocrite and not support any country that endangers civilians. Bombing a government building isn't like bombing a military installation. Regular people work in government buildings. Or does the janitor deserve to die for wanting to support his family?
They were targeting military government buildings. But the drones got deflected and crashed into nearby structures.
Even if they were targeting government buildings, you know civies work in those too?
Why should we care? At best we could say that they are ignorant and at worst complicit. Will this attack prolong the war? Are you ready to decry every death on all sides at every opportunity, or just the ones you don't agree with? Are there rules to war that only one side is allowed to break? Context matters
No one should die on either side. No matter what, it is sad. What is worse is the people sitting on their high horses saying this is a good thing. Just disgusting.