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Car companies like Honda, BMW, and Hyundai are banding together to build an EV-charging network bigger than Tesla's Supercharger empire

https://www.businessinsider.com/car-companies-plan-tesla-sueprcharger-rival-charging-network-2023-7

Tesla has been building out its Supercharger network for over a decade. Now legacy car companies are taking a page from Elon Musk's playbook.

Car companies like Honda, BMW, and Hyundai are banding together to build an EV-charging network bigger than Tesla's Supercharger empire::Tesla has been building out its Supercharger network for over a decade. Now legacy car companies are taking a page from Elon Musk's playbook.

86 comments

Toribor

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Pretty ridiculous to have multiple standards for this anyway. Imagine if you had to hunt down a gas station that served whatever proprietary fuel you needed.

jballs

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As someone who used to drive a diesel Jetta, I can confirm it was a pain in the ass.

reallynotnick

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Also cars that require higher octane can be slightly harder to find.

outdated_belated

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Even worse are the hydrogen fuel cell ones

hamsterkill

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Hydrogen is still likely to be a big part of vehicles going forward (either by combustion or fuel cell). Toyota's been putting a lot of money into developing it and heavy transit is going to need it since batteries take up too much weight. Infrastructure will be much easier to build when they finally get to market, though. Converting gas stations to hydrogen isn't terribly complicated.

pancakes

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Converting gas stations to hydrogen isn't terribly complicated.

Wait until gas they find out hydrogen is a gas.

hamsterkill

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Well, it may be liquid for use in vehicles.

Mayoman68

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A lot of transit can just be electrified with overhead wires

hamsterkill

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Some can, but it's not really an option for planes and semi trucks.

SulaymanF

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Virtually every gas station in the US I’ve seen has 3 types of unleaded non-diesel.

zigmus64

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Many high performance engines require higher than the 97 octane that most regular gas stations sell as their Premium. That doesn’t even count any vehicles that run on 85% ethanol.

Toribor

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I guess if you're buying some exotic car that uses rocket fuel you either know what you're signing up for or have enough money that you don't care?

I just hit the button for cheap gas like a poor.

zigmus64

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It doesn’t take some sort of import exotic to run best on high octane racing fuel. Your redneck uncle with a mid-80’s Fox body Mustang with the 5.0L V8 very well might have the engine tuned to run that gas.

Certainly it’s intentional, and certainly an enthusiast like that will be willing to put up with the headache of sourcing fuel, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a headache…

w2tpmf

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Many??

Name ONE mass production car that takes higher than 97 octane in it's factory configuration.

zigmus64

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I could have worded that comment a bit better.

I wasn’t trying to say there were an abundance of cars rolling off production lines taking a non-standard gasoline.

There is a large community of enthusiasts who have modified the engines in their cars to higher compression ratios and have tuned them to take higher octane fuel.

sin_free_for_00_days

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You are correct, the other dude is being needlessly aggressively argumentative. Buddy of mine used to have a high performance truck that he needed to get gas from like the airport or some shit. He got rid of it after a couple years because it was a pain in the ass to keep fueled.

kiddblur

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That’s early adopter pain for you. In Europe there is one standard, and in the US, we’re getting there. Yes it’ll be a pain for a while that people with CCS ports will need to use adapters at NACS chargers and vice versa, but we’re settling on the underlying CCS technology being the standard, so it’ll just be a matter of connector. Much better than the three standards we had very recently (add chademo)

ShakyPerception

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AgentOrange

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The article says they're going to build 30,000 new chargers with two different charging standards. That's not settling, that's hedging.

BobKerman3999

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Permanently Deleted

joel_feila

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well with Ford and GM signing deals with Tesla to use their NACS, and Tesla releasing most to all of any ownership of NACS it could be the standard. It will be interesting to see. Some lobbying could get a new bill passed that allows gov funding for NACS super charger stations.

abrasiveteapot

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we’re settling on the underlying CCS technology being the standard

Given how many manufacturers have declared they're moving to NACS it doesn't sound like CCS will be the standard I don't think ?

Ford, General Motors, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Polestar, Rivian, and Volvo have signed up.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Charging_Standard

rooster_butt

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CCS communication protocol not the port itself. Tesla only used a proprietary communication protocol, now they also support CCS communication protocol. Basically means all you need is an adaptor and everything should be interoperable.

Technology Connections just made a whole video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ

PipedLinkBot

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Bishma

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It's ridiculous but it's not quite the same. There are adapter plugs to make all the systems cross-compatible. It means having to carry around adapters though.

XeroxCool

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Not quite the same because adaptors don't solve the charge rate problem. Rather than not finding your gasoline at all, it's more like if you don't find your preferred station, your gasoline will take 45 minutes to dispense instead of 3. Tesla Roadsters have been abandoned by Tesla and would take 30 hours for a full charge on 120v, worst case.

TenderfootGungi

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Many gas stations do not carry the premium that my Acura with 10:1 compression needs.

Hazdaz

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You mean like diesel?

Thorny_Thicket

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I don't ever remember seeing a gas station that sells gasoline but not diesel

Hazdaz

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Only half the gas stations in the US carry diesel as well.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086549_how-to-find-diesel-fuel-anywhere-in-the-u-s#:~:text=Diesel%20fuel%20is%20only%20available,diesel%20vehicles%20hit%20the%20market.

Thorny_Thicket

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Well I don't live in the US so that probably explains why I've never seen one

TheMusicalFruit

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I’m glad they plan on having both major charging plugs on the stations. But, this would be an ok time for some government regulation to dictate a plug format nationwide. Not having to worry about whether you will be able to charge your vehicle at a charging station would make the experience less stressful for new EV owners.

maniajack

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Agreed. Only took the EU a couple decades to tell cellphone manufacturers (Apple) to use a standard plug.

fidodo

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To be fair, it's been far less than a decade since a non shitty standard plug came out.

orrk

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to be fair, they did quite well with micro-USB

Lobotomie

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Who uses a charger other than type2/ccs nowadays?

TheMusicalFruit

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There were some Japanese manufacturers still selling cars with CHAdeMO the last time I checked. But they may have switched over by now, that was a couple years ago.

navi

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I'll believe it when I see it.

Even in Norway (home to a fuck load of EVs) I am using Tesla chargers for my non-Tesla on vacation.

I tried to use a hand full of other brands but they required apps and accounts that required a Norwegian citizen ID or Norwegian phone number to sign up.

Absolutely insane that it's not just a tap to pay on the terminal.

MasterCelebrator

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Hm that seems like Problem specific to norway. I have one app with which i have access to over 250k chargers all over europe. I just checked the charging point map and indeed, in norway there are very few i can use.

FinalRemix

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Does the app just find the chargers, or do you have to have the app to use the chargers?

I'm legit asking. I don't have a car new enough to have OnStar, let alone keyless ignition.

MasterCelebrator

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With the App i can use the chargers. Its the App of a lange energy Provider in germany. With this App i can use all These 250k + chargers. Additionaly i have a card that i can use for starting the charging process, if i am somewhere with no mobile Internet Connection. On top of that i always pay the same price per kw/h no matter if i use a charger in germany, Italy, Sweden etc.

FartsWithAnAccent

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Cool, as long as everyone settles on something decent.

TenderfootGungi

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The industry is coalescing around Tesla’s plug, which they put up for public adoption as the North American Charging Standard.

reallynotnick

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Also I want to be able to pay via a credit card and not deal with half a dozen different apps and we are all golden.

JohnDClay

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Tesla isn't going to sacrifice their ascetic to put card readers and screens on everything. Plus, they would probably save maybe $50 per station

reallynotnick

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https://electrek.co/2023/07/14/tesla-unveils-v4-supercharger-credit-card-reader/

Ocelot

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This could probably be done as simply as having one reader for every few chargers. Just type in the stall number and tap your card. Kind of like paying for parking

joel_feila

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I would love that but I just don't think it will ever happen. It is just not high tech enough.

LUHG_HANI

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Yeh it is. They just closed source.

joel_feila

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I have read that Tesla opened up their charger. Every article I read made it sound like it is no longer proprietary to Tesla

Cheers

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Android uses USB c and Apple uses lightning. We're on for a long one.

LUHG_HANI

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For 6 months until apple use usb c

reddig33

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I’ll believe it when I see it.

Honestly I’m surprised companies like Exxon, BP, and Chevron aren’t opening charging stations under shell companies with new brand names.

stevehobbes

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Most of the time they don’t own the actual gas stations, they’d need to get their franchisees to do it and invest in it.

dutchkimble

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Shell is their competitor so it wouldn't make sense to do it under their companies for these guys

Caculon

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I think they ment shell companies as in companies they own. E.g. Exxon create a company called ElectricCo and ElectricCo charging stations are what customers see.

dutchkimble

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Yes, it was my attempt at a joke :)

dutchkimble

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Yes, it was my attempt at a joke :)

Amilo1591

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Wait.. Honda? Do they even have an EV?

eneka

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They had the prototype EvPlus and then the Fit EV and Clarity EV (which did CCS DCFC) available on lease only. The Clarity FCEV had ChaDeMo in Japan. And also the Honda E

Hazdaz

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Honda's first EV is going to be made by GM using GM's Ultium platform.

AbackDeckWARLORD

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In North America no. They did have the Honda E for a bit but I believe that’s being killed off now. Great car but outrageous pricing for what you get.

AFKBRBChocolate

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They're supposed to have some next year.

LUHG_HANI

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Yes they do. Honda E and it's small and fantastic

Hazdaz

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Seems like this should have happened like 2 years ago.

The industry depended on VW's network and as usual VW shows us how incompetent they are.

orrk

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one would argue that VW actually building a network made them more competent than most of the others...

Hazdaz

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It was forced to build it because of Dieselgate.

flatplutosociety

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This has got to be the death knell for Tesla, right? They used to be the only game in town if you wanted an EV with a long range and a design that looks like a regular car, but that hasn't been the case for the last few years. The only real selling point they have now is the robust network of charging stations, and if that advantage goes away, there is literally no reason to buy a Tesla vehicle instead of a comparably priced EV from a traditional car company.

LUHG_HANI

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Correct. Tesla will get destroyed in the future when other car companies have fully stepped up. Nobody is buying a shitty made Tesla over BMW or Mercedes or even Hyundai or Kia at this point. The Hyundai iconic 5 N and Kia ev6 or gt6 slaps Tesla In build quality and performance to boot.

Paralda

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Assuming that consumers will be rational is a bit premature.

Tesla wants to position itself as the Apple of cars, and it's largely succeeded. Most techies or people more in the know might be quick to dismiss them, but I don't think that's the opinion shared by the public at large.

There's still a wait time for pretty much any new Tesla

flatplutosociety

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Exactly. I don't need a new car now, but when I do in a few years, it'll definitely be an EV (I have solar panels on my roof, so it's a total no-brainer). Five years ago, it would've been a Tesla, but now, that Mustang Mach looks awfully compelling.

inclementimmigrant

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As a Tesla owner myself, that's mostly how I feel. The only thing I would add from my experience with my current EV is that their driver assist and auto steer are still better than most other car companies but not by much at this point, their integration with the car and the charging network makes long trips easier, and I feel the build quality is pretty bad still.

If there are enough chargers using CCS stations across the continent then Tesla then my next EV will not be Tesla.

TIEPilot

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It should be a national standard and thats that. Also cash options to charge. Why do we have a standardized sizes for gas and diesel nozzles but not w/ electric?

june

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you know elon is gonna post an Invincible meme about this

Nodreams11

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They will still be using the Tesla plug, so he already won not having to change out the existing network plugs.

reallynotnick

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The cords are too short for most non-Tesla vehicles and I don't believe all stations can speak CCS, so they will still have to do some updates

T156

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The placement is also specifically optimised for Tesla vehicles, so they would need to change things up to accommodate non-Tesla ones.

Dinsmore

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Great if it happens, but not holding my breath.

flatplutosociety

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Eh, this doesn't seem like a pipe dream, or even unlikely. It's in every EV manufacturer's best interest for there to be a big network of charging stations with universal compatibility.

Dinsmore

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I mean, will it happen eventually? Yeah, no doubt. But could it take 15 years? Also yes...

Blackmist

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Just turn every highway into a giant Scalextric (slot car?) track and be done with it.

HurlingDurling

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Ok, but I want more public transportation and rail. Thanks.

Edit: or at least just give me a robust charging network and then make an EV version of the Dacia Sandera without all the fancy lane departure, self adjusting cruise control or any other sophisticated nonesense, thanks.

m3t00

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last paragraph: The stations will offer both major charging plugs: The CCS standard that most automakers have used, along with Tesla's NACS plug that's gaining popularity in the industry. "

because NACS is actually better system. brand loyalty is silly. competition for all EVs is good for all EVs. it drives better than I can alone. pay extra to stay bleeding edge. not perfection but almost

mtchristo

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Wake me up when hydrogen comes.

p1mrx

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You are 10% hydrogen already.

foggy

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Ah, the Hulu strat.