https://www.politico.eu/article/science-e-cigarette-tobacco-smoking-vaping-health-who-governments/
The great divide on what to do about e-cigarettes is only growing wider.
Because people enjoy taking drugs and they always will. Being a dictator and telling people they can't do what they want with their own body is hilariously out of touch
Some people seem to think that if we just correct all of our unhealthy habits we will live forever. My life has been better with some unhealthiness in it, and times that I’ve stopped has proven that. It’s your body and your time, so you should be able to use it like you want to.
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter Thompson
A man who reached sixty-seven, wealthy and loved, and put a gun in his mouth while at the kitchen table.
While talking on the phone with his wife. His son, daughter in law and 6 year old grandson were all in the house.
No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always bitchy. No Fun - for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your old age. Relax - This won't hurt.
Then the sound like someone dropped a heavy book.
Didn't he have terminal cancer, wanting to die his way and not wasting away from a horrible disease?
I don't believe so. He had a bunch of health problems- dealing with recovery from a broken back, hip, and also a lung infection. But I don't think cancer was part of the equation, ttbomk
I would rather live a shorter life where I enjoy myself than a longer one where I restrict myself.
In countries with universal healthcare, there is an argument that government should take a more active role in dissuading the use of substances that cause social harm and harm to the body and result in long term expenditure for public health. The detail is in how far government should go, e.g. educational initiatives, regulation, or prohibition, etc.
Countries with Universal Healthcare are always the worst places to get any treatment done, the US still to date is the best country for medical treatment of any kind
I’m all for safe substance use if wanted, but vapes are dangerous. I smoked cigarettes, then changed over to vaping and now use snus. Nicotine is a huge problem with it’s addictiveness.
Vapes in the current state they are sold, are like candy to young people and the shops treat it that way. Vaping makes it easy to consume nicotine, and once your body is addicted it craves more and more. The amount of nicotine in these vapes is obscene. And you can do it everywhere with them. You don’t smell it like cigarettes. You can get vapes in any taste you desire. I consumed way more nicotine when I was vaping than with cigarettes.
I use cannabis to sleep (legally) and consume on moderation, just enough to do the job. While on an extended trip just now, I purchased a cartridge and battery for convenience and to try it out (I normally vape cannabis flower). It was shocking to me how quickly and frequently I would use it if I wasn't really being strict with myself. The ease of use made it trivial, the amount of product at a high concentration made it something I didn't have to think about, and it tasted and smelled like blueberry. I'll ask back to my normal methods but it gave me something to think about. There is still quite a bit left in the cartridge. To your point, it was very affordable, convenient, and psychologically speaking "addictive".
Yeah the convenience and the flavor are the main problems for me. If the prepackaged vapes would come in non candy flavors, a lot of potential new consumers wouldn't touch vapes. They should be an alternative for smokers and not a new revenue stream for tobacco conglomerates based on a new generation who know smoking in general is bad.
If THC vapes are properly vetted and the buyer is informed about possible health impacts I'm totally ok with that.
We can say that, but people also started smoking cigarettes (which arguably don't taste like candy) as minors. Should we ban all flavoured alcohol too? Alcohol is also addictive and unhealthy. This would mean no more beers, wines, coolers, etc, just watered down alcohol. Does that also sound like a good plan to you? Maybe banning flavours specifically isn't the only possible solution here.
It might also be good to try to make kids getting caught smoking more difficult for the parents to deal with than it is for them deal with an angry teen. I mean, these kids are getting these vapes from somewhere. Some kids are getting them from their own parents. Where did parental/social responsibility go? Kids shouldn't be able to get ANY nicotine in the first place, imo.
health impacts of vapes? none mate
but yea go ahead and inhale all that carbon monoxide in your flowers bro wenwont miss you
Shouldn’t conflate THC distillate vaping with nicotine vaping. They are very different things
I have never tried nicotine vaping but I imagine the ease of consumption and ease of concealing the use of the product are very similar. If you smoke a cigarette, people know. But if you hit a cart, it's pretty hard to tell even minutes later, especially if outside.
maybe grow up 👆 and control yourself
you sound exactly like an alcoholic blaming the bottle and not THEMSELVES
I get you're just a troll, but to anyone else reading this, this is an Archaic way of looking at addiction.
Saying that vapes are dangerous is misinformation at best. Vaping got you off smoking cigarettes (congrats btw), which are far more dangerous. Yes, you may have consumed more nicotine, but you didn't consume any of the other thousands of toxic or even carcinogenic chemicals present in cigarette smoke.
I meant dangerous as in that it attracts people who would have never started smoking. While cigarettes are more dangerous, vaping also has it's drawbacks. The base fluid may be safe to consume, but the flavorings are the problem in my eyes. They appeal to a younger audience and the ingredients are most often not known (Corresponding study if you want to dive deeper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507184/#_sec_000093_ )
Additionally nicotine in itself is not something I would want anyone to be addicted to.
Legos are dangerous for children they become addicted and addiction is bad
thats what you sound like mate a bafoon
Seriously, the other day on the bus I was enjoying my favorite snack, skunk glands infused with fox urine, and people had the audacity to tell me I can't put these things in my own body. Dictators.
Being a liability to the state by taking drugs known to cause harm is also hilariously unjustified by that same metric. Sure let people decide with things like weed, shrooms whatever mellow shit they want but shit like heroin, vapes causing lung damage and putting pressure on already stressed out health infrastructures across the word needs to be governed.
I can't believe you really just put heroin & vapes causing lung damage together. Insane. I have relatives addicted to both and it's genuinely aggravating to see someone say something so disconnected.
I'd take a family of vape addicts over a single heroin addict a million times over.
"Being a liability to the state"
So people are just metrics to you, not human beings with a right-to-choose, just slaves in your mind who shouldn't have the right to pursue their own happiness unless governed by the state
So people are nothing more than a statistic to you? What an insanely warped mentality that only a slave owner could love
It's the drugs going into air that other people have to breathe, or behavior while under the influence that endangers other people that's the problem.
The danger of passing a cigarette on the street pales in comparison to urban pollution, poorly regulated restaurants, and even household cleaners for the number of toxins you expose yourself to. Worrying about second hand smoke outside makes as much sense as worrying about malaria from a mosquito while you’re trapped in a cage with lions.
Not when you're allergic. And even when you're not, I've only met one smoker who realizes how awful they smell and tries to mitigate it.
You do realize this is a hugely fallacious argument, right?
Stay inside if you insist on indulging in a disgusting habit. I'm not stopping you from destroying yourself, but no one should have to suffer for your stupid choices.
But smoking in public is intrinsically selfish, so I should know better than to debate it with a smoker. Nothing would convince you to have a little courtesy and class.
Ah yes, discriminate against people, great job not being the bigot
oh wait, you ARE the bigot
They literally just turned the argument around on you and you call them a bigot. Doesn't that make your argument bigotry?
You understand that the guy they're replying to literally described them as "Bubble Boy" for being allergic to smoke?
As @dragonflyteaparty said, if them turning the argument back around is bigotry, doesn't that make the guy they replied to a bigot?
All that dangerous behavior like snacking relentlessly and laughing at dumb jokes, what horror! Also edibles have no secondhand smoke to inhale.
More like car accidents, second hand lung damage in children of smokers, and overdosing.
I'm not talking about just marijuana, but you definitely come across as insecure about it.
The conversation was about vaping, and for those who struggle with reading comprehension, I clearly stated I was talking about more than just cannabis.
And when the government can effectively prevent massive amounts of benzene from going into the air, they are more than welcome to work on the trace amounts of nicotine.
It's not a zero sum. You can be against both.
That argument sounds like someone whining about car accidents while setting themselves on fire... one does not make the other okay.
One is clearly worse, can be stopped, and isn't bullshit.
The other is whiny bullshit, and your analogy sucks.
But people aren't against it. They are against cigarettes and vaping because they don't like them. Alchohol? Totally fine. Pills? Goochie. Caffeine? Can't live without it. And if it's a matter of smell, then when are we making not showering illegal? Also, axe body spray, perfumes, incense, and any other form of non-consensual smells?
These things will never be banned because people like them. The same argument applies, but it doesn't get railed against because they don't bother you.
You'd be right, but those trace amount of nicotine are often going straight into our faces for the crime of being downwind of someone smoking/vaping without a care in the world.
Health effects aside, I'd appreciate not having to breath in or smell other people's second-hand smoke/vape.
There's more nicotine in your average pasta sauce than you'll absorb by following a vaping person for an hour. I know you're talking about a principle.. but it's not a very strong argument.
Okay, assuming that's true, when I eat pasta with sauce, the person next to me doesn't end up ingesting my pasta sauce.
When you smoke/vape, the people are forced to inhale your exhaust as they breath (which we don't really get a lot of choice in doing).
It's like saying because you got an X-ray you shouldn't worry about bathing in the sun for too long.
You missed the point. More accurate would be: because you watched TV for an hour you shouldn't worry about someone shining a flashlight on you. That's the level of consequences we're talking about and it sounds ridiculous when someone blows them out of proportions. Maybe we should start worrying about anal residue too because people are farting outside.
The "selfish" argument goes both ways, you're just as selfish for telling people what they can do with their own body as they are for blowing smoke in your face
It does go both ways, but saying "my body, my right" when what you're doing has a physical, unhealthy effect on the people around you I'd argue is more selfish than my wanting you to stop.
Imagine if people just stood outside of buildings constantly coughing and spluttering germs at you whenever you walked past. You'd want them to stop, no?
I'd argue the people blowing their exhaust onto passers by are more selfish, considering the passers by don't get a choice in breathing, but sure I'm the selfish one.
I don't quite understand how the science is clear if "there is still no data on the long-term effects of e-cigarettes".
We dont have long term data because e-cigarettes haven't been used for a long time. They got popular ten years back?
Also, as a vaper who switch from cigs because I was desperate for an alternative, I'm also curious about the different strata of products that exist on the market. For example, I visit a juice shop that mixes their products on site with pure materials, and I get to customize what exactly appears within my harmful juices. I build and maintain my parts as well. How does this approach compare to 'over the connivence store counter' kits like Juul?
It wouldn't surprise me if those products contain preservatives, or byproducts of a corporation skirting regulatory lines, that could be hazardous for consumer health. Though, that is purely my speculation — yet I wonder if my choice method of getting my sweet, sweet nicotine will get lumped in with everything else.
You would think 10 years would be enough time to see a groups increased risk to associated illnesses. If I made a study group and made them smoke daily for 10 years there would definitely be poorer health. The science is pretty clear, but the WHO doesn't want to admit that vapes are net neutral, whereas tobacco is bad, so obviously that would make vapes "healthy" in comparison.
Nicotine in the body acts much like caffeine, it increases your blood pressure, giving the effect of a "calmer" feeling, and headaches when in withdrawal. No one is lobbying against coffee/caffeinated drinks, even though it's understood that too much caffeine can cause health risks. That's really where we're at. Alternative methods like nicotine gum or patches have existed for a long time and while there can be dependencies formed on these, no one would dare say nicotine gum is as dangerous as smoking cigarettes. The associated cancer risks from tobacco come from the carcinogens that are created when burning tobacco, not from the nicotine itself
Anything other than air going in to your lungs is bad. Vaping puts stuff that isn't air into your lungs. The science is clear on that.
Just how much damage it's doing isn't really clear because they're only becoming really popular now, but it is doing damage.
I’m be fine with them banning coffee so that’s not the “gotcha!” you think it is. Alcohol too btw. Alcohol especially should be banned tbh.
Coffee isn’t inhaling stuff into your lungs that isn’t air though. I’m assuming you’re saying “caffein = bad”? People aren’t filling their lungs with caffeine from coffee.
Again - science is settled here. If it’s not oxygen it’s bad if it goes into your lungs.
"It beats smoking" is a low fucking bar.
The science is that putting shit in your lungs is not great. There's no upside for non-smokers. It's a lark. The only truly positive side is that it's objectively better than inhaling smoke, and that only matters if it's a tobacco alternative - and contains nicotine. Which let this low-impact delivery mechanism create new addicts.
Two decades in either direction and the calculus would be trivial. 1990, the way people smoked back then? We'd solve the epidemic overnight. Trade it for vaping in a heartbeat. 2030, the way statistics were headed? Pointless and inexcusable. A brief fad that would linger in countries with hookah culture.
Instead, the worst-case scenario happened immediately. The same murderous liars made money hooking a new generation with a fairly unsafe and hideously addictive chemical. Like they'd previously done by adding filters, and then menthol, and then cloves.
Smoking kills 8 million people worldwide every year. I think it's worth pushing the alternatives.
Maybe I read it wrong but what I got from it is this:
Vaping is good as an alternative to non-smokers. The problem is that it's being pushed to non-smokers. It's not as bad as smoking, but the best is neither.
The problem isn't pushing it as an alternative to already active smokers, that's what it was initially touted as...
The problem is it became the new smoking fad. People who never smoked are taking this up, and are now the new generation of hungry addicts to keep the tobacco corps alive and well.
An adult should be able to do whatever the fuck they want, as long as it doesn't impact other people. Vaping doesn't emit any carcinogens or toxic substances, and 10 times less nicotine than smoking does. At the end of the day, vaping does far less harm than smoking, and it's easier to reduce the amount of nicotine consumed with vaping. Nicotine also has health benefits, such as slowing down the onset of Parkinson's.
If teenagers are vaping then that's an enforcement issue, but at the same time I would be less worried if I found a vape in my kid's bedroom than a packet of cigarettes. Teenagers will experiement with substances. Nicotne vapes are way down the list of ones I would be worried about.
indeed man.
waaaaA waaaaaaaA BUT I HATE SMOKERS WAAHHHHHHHH 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
half the people here 👆 we get it you dont smoke. that means this aint your place to discuss something you are ignorant about
That is patently false, and even if nicotine were healthy, it should be someone's choice to inhale it, not forced on them by others with low self-control and no sense of courtesy.
Which bit is false?
From the first link:
The key finding of this study is that e-cigarettes emit significant amounts of nicotine but do not emit significant amounts of CO and VOCs. We also found that the level of secondhand exposure to nicotine depends on the e-cigarette brand. However, the emissions of nicotine from e-cigarettes were significantly lower than those of tobacco cigarettes.
In a scientific context "significantly less" essentially means "we were able to prove beyond our error threshold that there was less nicotine"
As such, it doesn't mean squat without numbers to back it up. There could be 1% less nicotine and it'd still be significant if their testing method was sensitive enough to reliably capture the difference.
Whereas this:
There’s evidence that nonsmokers exposed to secondhand vape aerosol absorb similar levels of nicotine as people exposed to secondhand cigarette smoke.
Along with nicotine, nonvapers are also exposed to ultrafine particles from secondhand vape aerosol, which may increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.
Would mean exactly what the person you're replying to has said it means, assuming it's true, aka. It's patently false to say it's safer for non-smokers to be around.
There are numbers to back it up, in the study I linked. Is 10 times less not significant?
The primary harm from cigarettes doesn't come from the nicotine, it comes from all the other toxic chemicals released by combustion, which aren't present in the aerosol exhaled from a vape.
Nobody is claiming it to be 100% safe (what is?), but it's not even in the same ballpark of harm as smoking is.
I'm personally all for banning smoking in public places (besides designated areas and specialty clubs). I agree that exposing people to secondhand smoke is rude at best and a health risk for them at worst. But I do think that especially in the comfort of your own home, you can do what you want (with the caveat that if vaping has similar odor issues as smoking, I see it entirely reasonable that renters can be required to smoke outside).
Then don't smoke or vape. No one is forcing you to. Please do not be a pearl clutcher and make decisions for everyone else around you. You're not God and even GOD gave people the choice to believe in him.
Okay but the only way we can not smoke or vape is for allayall smokers and vapers not to smoke or vape in places where the rest of us breathe. I can't even go out on my balcony for several of the otherwise most pleasant hours because there's a guy smoking cigars in the courtyard of the next building and the stench is nauseating. And there's always a smell of vaping in the hallway of my own building, despite it being open to the outside air at one end. Y'all are so anosmic you have no idea how far your vapor and smoke spreads.
I hate the stench of my neighbor's flower bed.
We should ban whatever that plant is.
Yeah, that'd be a great suggestion if it weren't for the fact that we don't get a choice in breathing those fumes in if we happen to be downwind of a smoker/vaper exercising their choice. You get to choose over your own body but you also get to make the choice over ours.
Also, really not a great comparison considering the choice is believe in me or burn in hell for all eternity, and God knows which choice we're going to make from the start (being omniscient and all)
Yeah, that's a lot of words when they could've just said "I don't understand risk, harm reduction, any statistics relavent to the topic, or science."
How bluntly does someone have to say 'this is good compared to smoking, but caused harm for non-smokers' before y'all stop projecting whatever shallow kneejerk absolute suits your fancy?
As bluntly, and as often as possible to ensure the demarcation is obvious to all.
Hate to turn your putrid argument around on you, but this isn't as trivial as the annoyance of needing a sarcasm flag to avoid Poe's Law, even though the impact of vaping on adult members of society who do not use it is merely an annoyance which causes their knees to jerk.
And your facts are wrong: Tobacco smoke kills half a million people per year. The jury is out on whether or not vaping is quantifiably medically dangerous at all. There is absolutely no data on harm from 2nd hand vaping, so you cannot say (in good faith) that it's causing harm.
Specifics matter in comparisons when the potential outcome is a total ban on a substance that has helped minimize harm for millions, and is mostly harmless in comparison.
In short - gnash your teeth elsewhere, you smug turd. You're wrong.
Is that clear enough?
We know the impact of nicotine, fucknuts. The issue is people who DO use this. Adults (for a start) who were never going to smoke cigarettes, but took up vaping, and wound up addicted to tobacco products.
No, the people who switched over from smoking aren't relevant. This isn't about them.
No, the people who don't vape with nicotine aren't relevant. This isn't about them.
No, the people who don't vape, period, aren't relevant. This isn't about them.
Childish accusations weren't enough - you had to go and underline that your dismissive bullshit was just blindly repeating 'but it's good compared to smoking!!!' Belaboring the impact of tobacco smoke... fuck, why am I bothering? You didn't read what I wrote the first two times.
Go make shit up about someone else.
fuck, why am I bothering
For the same reason you couldn't stop in the first place, you smug fuck.
Drink bleach.
Vaping was how I quit smoking tobacco and then quit vaping too. I started vaping to quit tobacco using premixed liquids for about 2 years, then switched to mixing my own so I took control of my nicotine intake. Over the course of about 8 months I kept cutting the nicotine in half. I would have a bit of a headache for a couple days then I would get better. After vaping at 0% for about 2 weeks, I noticed I was not picking up the vape as often and I could just leave it on the other side of the room and not care. About another month and I was entirely done. Previously about 1/2 pack a day smoker for 25+ years, now free of everything for about 6 years now.
"It beats smoking" is a low fucking bar... that I already mentioned.
What conversation do you think you're having?
I haven't smoked a cigarette in six years. Most of the time I use nicotine lozenges during the day, and my vape is for when I'm drinking or I need to fall on my crutch. It's familiar to my known vice, and stopped me from the more dangerous method of handling my addiction.
Grand stand all you will about how it was 'solved' over night, but I got hooked on the bitch in the 2000's due to family history and culture. People still smoke all around me, and it was only a matter of time before I tried it and got hooked. And I've made peace with that. That's before we even touch a more terrifying addiction that exists all over my country within opiate-families despite them having a stronger controlled classification. While the chemical exists in the environment potential addicts will happen across it and subsist.
'It beats smoking' is a pretty important bar for me, as an addict, because it reduces harm to myself
'Vaping is negative except compared to smoking.'
'Oh yeah well what about compared to smoking?!'
... ibid.
I don't think anyone is arguing vaping is a good thing, and nor was I. It would be rather foolish to do so.
I was only giving my perspective at how it has been better for me and many others in my life.
🤷♀️
A guy in another subthread just told me to kill myself for saying nicotine is bad, actually.
The endless reiteration of 'but! vaping! beats! smoking!' is a great big 'who asked?' at best. I know. I said that, first. It was the first thing I said, in the root comment. It is the opposite of news, and simply not relevant.
That positive is not the negative I'm pointing out - as a response to the insistence there are no negatives.
You really wanna police what other people put in their body? How exactly does it affect you?
People should be properly informed about what they put in their bodies.
Edit: Just realised I posted in an American politics instance. Ignore the foreigner.
They are properly informed. People have known alcohol was poison for millennia, and people have known about the side-effects from smoking since the 1950's
Sometimes people just like to enjoy things regardless
Sure, I can agree with that. Maybe we should start with the food industry first. Did you know there's an acceptable amount of sawdust to put in some types of food as filler? It really is horrific. Vaping at least is something people realize is probably not great for you in the long run... but people who falls for the shitty quality of food standards don't know what they are putting in their body either.
It’s not really sawdust. Cellulose, which is basically plant fiber, is an FDA approved food additive used in things like shredded cheeses as an anti-caking agent. It is commonly extracted from wood pulp, but it could also be extracted from any plant really. Here’s a brief explainer
second and third-hand smoke and vaping aerosols contain harmful, toxic and cancer-causing chemicals that can be breathed in.
You're why enforced civility is a fucking nightmare to deal with.
'This doesn't affect you!' It does. 'Well make it don't.'
That doesn't invalidate my point. Yes, if someone is vaping somewhere inappropriate, that's not right. But if they are outside, that's really fucked that you think you get to dictate what other people do outside. It's their world too.
Are you advocating for cigarettes ban? Because if not, how you can advocate for vile ban? If you advocate for neither, then what do you mean by “it beats smocking “ is a low fucking bar”?
Cigarettes are sufficiently regulated that the industry was going to die. No outright ban was necessary.
That is no longer the case, directly thanks to this shit. Like if Philip Morris started selling nicotine patches as a brand new drug.
"The science is clear" only means, vaping beats smoking. A fact absolutely no-one questions. But vaping is worse than not vaping. The lesser-evil argument only works when there's no third option. Like "neither."
Serving the same purpose as smoking, while being less dangerous, is great... compared to smoking.
But the purpose of smoking fucking blows.
But vaping is worse than not vaping.
But this fact also absolutely no-one questions.
And are you saying that somehow coping is regulated less??
dude its tobacco not black tar heroin get of your high horse i would blow smoke straightkbin your face at a party
except you havent been to a party in how long?
If we ban vaping, we should ban cigarettes, cigars, chew, alcohol, and weed as well.
All have a negative effect on your health.
Strongly agree. We’ve already learned that prohibition doesn’t work and that people will always find other ways to get their fix.
If flavored vapes are “marketed to children”, what about flavored THC edibles and fruity/candy flavored alcohol? What about energy drinks and highly caffeinated sodas? What about high calorie ultra-palatable foods with absurd quantities of high fructose corn syrup? How is nicotine so different from any of the other drugs that society has decided are socially acceptable?
Humanity has had a relationship with mind altering substances since the dawn of time. It’s ingrained in our cultures, and may even be partially responsible for how human intelligence has adapted to where it is today. Nobody is going to overwrite thousands of years of history by banning vapes. People will just find some other way to access nicotine and other substances, probably by switching back to smoking or chewing. A brief ten-year interval of pushback against smoking in select countries didn’t mean that people no longer wanted nicotine, it just meant that people wanted a less objectionable way of consuming it than burning leaves in paper.
Yeah, that is basically my view on it. Vaping isn't healthy, but it seems to be healthier than the alternatives. If you aren't willing to ban all nicotine products, just tax it and treat it like other nicotine products.
The problem is that this is multiple times more addictive than earlier nicotine products. The previous generation in the US almost stopped smoking entirely then this reversed all progress.
Bigger and faster hits alongside fruity flavours and and easy to hide/disipate vapour. Everyone knew if you smoked in the boys room, it is a lot easier to vape in the boys room.
Plus you don't have to commit like with a cigarette. The people I know who vape will just instinctively just pick it up and have a single huff'n'puff every couple of minutes, whereas when they were addicted to smoking it was five minutes of getting up, going outside and standing in the cold/rain/whatever, dealing with ash, dealing with the awful smell of stale smoke on their hands, etc. The lack of convenience with smoking cigarettes meant they'd only have one once every three-quarters of an hour or so most of the time, whereas the vaping is constant.
I also find that somehow people removed nicotine as one of the harmful components of cigarettes and consider it very acceptable in vaping and the "healthy alternative" to smoking. Many smokers I've met consider themselves a very succesful quitter by switching to vaping, yet their wallets still bleed for big tobacco companies.
Don't forget banning excess eating, red meat, sugar, and staying up too late. Let us work together to create our utopia of perfect, boring humans who are peak physical specimen, exactly the way we want them to be.
Who cares it's my health not yours. Life is pretty shit. Everything cost to much, forced into servitude by a system I have very little control over. Why would I want more life?
All advertising for all tobacco products should be banned, including of course the product placement bullshit.
Other than that, and age restrictions, people should have the right to consume it. They should not have the right to force other people to consume it, as in secondhand smoke.
Same with other addictive and/or harmful products.
All advertising for all tobacco products should be banned, including of course the product placement bullshit.
Same with other addictive and/or harmful products.
Is advertising for addictive and/or harmful products really that much worse than advertising for products in general? Think about it.
(You might be predisposed to read the above as a defense of advertising, but it's quite the opposite.)
I agree that advertising is in itself part of the overall cultural problem of the system. However that doesn’t mean the specific forms or contents of advertisements aren’t more problematic than others.
I think so. Every time is see someone smoke on TV I instantly want one. I imagine it's very similar for people with gambling addiction.
Really you shouldn't be allowed to sell anything that is physically addictive. The consumer isn't choosing to buy it, they are compelled to.
I mean yes. It's addictive and bad for your health.
Like alcohol and cigarettes, just because it's considered normal doesn't mean it should get an exception.
I think grue is trying to make you think just one step further:
ALL advertising is bad. It's something we just started accepting as being nearly everwhere in society, but it's ALL bad. It uses an immoral, bastardization of psychology and sociology to force messages on a populace designed to make them buy and consume more shit they don't need.
They pollute our streets, our buildings, our sky's. They flood our airwaves, our internet, even new technology like phones and TV's will have them hard baked in. Ads showing people with happy, full, contented lives that you could have too if only you bought this shiny product!
Why do all of these articles always assume all vaping is nicotine-related? It's exchanging the words "e-cigarette" with "vape". Seems irresponsible of the author. It's like writing an article on the dangers of squares and mixing in the word rectangle
Most of these anti smoking articles are written by people who don’t understand smoking devices themselves. Irresponsible for sure.
The title is bad. I think the reasons though are most research is done on e-cigarettes and more people use them than thc vapes. Specifically young adults or teens use them a lot which many people didn’t expect and there is worry about.
Bro I could say the same thing about global warming, vaccines, race, and abortions, but I'm still surrounded by people fighting progress. Vaping is no different.
When are we, as a society, going to wake up and realize that teenagers are going to do whatever we tell them not to do. It happens over and over and over, but people are still surprised. "That's bad for you" is about as ineffective as a deterrent as it gets. I breath all manner of fumes, exhaust, and whatnot every day. Our land, sea, and food supply is packed to the brim with forever chemicals and microplastics. Those are bad for us, but we seem more worried about what we are intentionally putting in our bodies? Okay, sure.
"They're targeting kids!" Because adults don't like things that taste good, y'know. Fuck the kids. They'll be alright DESPITE all the meddling us adults do.
I appreciate your "aww shucks, kids gonna be kids" worldview; however, the data is clear, we have dramatically reduced the rate at which young people smoke cigarettes by instituting rules and guidelines concerning advertising targeting adolescents. Further, we have clear data showing that level of education greatly effects the likelihood of an individual using tobacco.
So with all due respect, this is something we can easily tackle. We know for certain the adolescents respond readily to marketing, and we therefore can control tobacco adoption by reducing said marketing to their demographic. This isn't anywhere near as futile as you're making it out to be.
Can you link me some of this child-focused advertising? Not calling anyone a liar, but I (personally) have never seen vapes marketed in any way other than "hey, we sell these" and am interested.
Google the instagram juul ads that they got into major legal trouble over.
They made them look like a cool lifestyle product and as a result lots of not too bright kids started vaping without even realizing that they were a nicotine consumption device.
All that being said, I overall do think vapes are good and that candy flavors totally appeal to adults and shouldn’t be banned. I’m fine with limits on advertising, and mostly I really think comprehensive and honest drug education for kids will empower them to make good choices.
"Marketing" here being entirely incidental is the point, that the products appeal to youth simply by existing. To my knowledge, there aren't any literal advertisements going around to young people like those ridiculous Juul ads 5 or so years ago. Talking about specific types of imagery or colours on packaging, or the types of flavours used in a flavoured product as "marketing" is using an umbrella term to suggest intent to actively market to kids, but that isn't a thing that's happening.
Having worked with my government for school dental programs, I've met my fair share of students age 12 to 17 who smoke because their parents do. You're right that marketing is a huge part of it, but I wanted to share the parents' responsibility also.
The politicians are paid by the tobacco companies. There is money to be made, and a new generation will replace tobacco smokers and ensure that the tobacco industry will survive for longer.
Nicotine is socially accepted, that is the other main problem.
Why are people all of sudden so concerned about other people’s health? I should be able to do just about anything I want to my body, as long as it has minimal impact on those around me. I can understand second hand smoke being a problem indoors, what impacts does exhaling vapor have on others?
This has been going on for a while, at least since the 80s/90s. I still remember the TV commercials from when I was a kid likening smokers to cartoon villains.
It's social engineering. Those advert programs of the 90s made it to where people felt comfortable publicly shaming smokers (walking by fake coughing, or flat telling people they're gross).
I'm with you in that as long as I'm not puffing away on a busy sidewalk or inside a shared space, as an adult I should be free to indulge as I see fit (nevermind that I won't smoke inside aside from weed, shits nasty). Point is, most of the time it doesn't do diddly squat to anyone, it's just people sticking their fingers into your private life where they don't belong, just because they can and an authority gave them permission to. It gives them something to do and something to feel superior about.
Second and third-hand smoke and vaping aerosols contain harmful, toxic and cancer-causing chemicals that can be breathed in. Also not as much a problem with vapes, but the smell of smoke is truly disgusting and makes a lot of us feel sick to be around. I have had a conversation with someone who was smoking, and immediately gone inside and thrown up. I don't care what you put in your body on your property, but in public spaces it very much is of public concern.
I'll agree that smokers need to be more cognizant of their actions while recognizing how it affects others, and take steps to mitigate it (ie smoking away from other nonsmokers, disposing of their trash, washing their hands, etc). You could've just as easily removed yourself from the conversation while the other person was smoking. No one is denying that cigarette smoke is nasty, and the onus is on the smoker to prevent ill effect to those around them, and the absolute easiest for a smoker is smoke away from others.
It's also more harmful to be walking through an alleyway surrounded by tall buildings with trucks idling, not to mention there are more harmful things in city air or home cleaning products that directly affect you more than someone with cigarette funk on their clothes. Sure it smells rank and can make you feel queasy, yet I get the same effect when someone lathers up in excessive amount of perfume/cologne, or is eating certain foods around me. But that's on me, it's my problem, and it's the tradeoff of going out in public. We don't have control of the environment around us.
I dunno about Republican, the Clinton admin was pretty vehement on the anti-smoking train back in the 90s
He also left office with the government budget in surplus, so perhaps a single act of indiscretion shouldn't be the basis for negating an individual's entire presidency? Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of things his administration did that I don't agree with, but to stake the guy for a blowjob is a bit childish.
(Guesstimating) Better than smoking, but as any doctor will tell you, putting anything that isn't air into your lungs is worse than not putting anything that isn't air into your lungs.
I say this as someone who both smokes and vapes cannabis.
I use a Dynavap VonG and a Boundless Tera, and am probably going to upgrade to a ball vape.
I really don't think there are literally 0 side effects. It is still something that isn't air going into your lungs.
Man, I dunno about you, but as someone who vaped and smoked weed a couple years back, the vaping was way worse for me. I would get these weird phlegmy coughs that I never got from smoking. I think part of it is that vapes hits feel so weak, so I would end up just power dragging my hits, causing this effect. There were days where I swear my lungs actually felt like they hurt.
Stopped vaping and haven't had this issue since. Anecdotal, but there you go.
Complete opposite for me. When I vape, my throat feels "cleaner" vs when I smoke, which is when I get those phlegm-ey coughs.
I vape and I love it and it's definitely better than cigs. Nicotine on its own is no more harmful than caffeine and is incredibly useful at treating my adhd and depression symptoms. I smoked for 8 years and now have been vaping for ten. While I smoked I felt like shit all the time. Since switching to vaping I haven't had a single negative side effect. I make my own juice, it's unflavored. It's literally just nicotine, propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin, which basically makes it an asthma inhaler but for nicotine instead of asthma drugs. I never plan to quit because I buy the ingredients in bulk and it only costs me like $40 a year for me and my girlfriend. There is no downside. Yes I'm addicted but so are many people to coffee. I see no downside at all.
The whole point is that the health risks of vaping are negligible. I've vaped for ten years with no side effects. I vapid through having covid twice and recovered fine. Find me one study with real reproducible health risks to vaping, I'll wait.
Why would I google that for you when I can just tell you a couple of stories about people who vaped and got sick?
Don't worry, I've provided him with a study so we'll see if he responds. Here it is again for him to see:
Didn't read it did you? Those were all those cases in the news and have never been linked to nicotine only vapes. It was from sketchy companies using subpar ingredients.
The most common brand associated with EVALI is Dank Vape, a brand of products containing THC, the principal psychoactive ingredient in marijuana. Exclusively using products with THC increases risk for EVALI. (It's unclear whether people who used nicotine-only vapes also were exposed to vape products with THC, or whether other ingredients caused the lung injury.) Vitamin E acetate is strongly associated with EVALI. It is found largely in counterfeit brands (and recently in Juul products from South Korea). Vitamin E is a supplement considered safe when ingested or applied to the skin. Vitamin E acetate is an oil derivative used in vaping products as a thickener. It is found in about half of the products associated with EVALI. A recent small study found vitamin E deposits in the lung tissue of EVALI patients.
How does one get started intelligently on this? I’m using disposable and would love to cut waste and expenses but I really like the draw of the disposable. I don’t care about blowing clouds. I want some restriction to the drag and would love to mix my own vape. I’ve thrown away over $500 of vapes trying to figure out how to get something that just works. I hate all the parts and settings with the ones I’ve gotten. With the disposable I can pick them up and vape. I don’t have to worry about what the wattage or other bs is. Is their an effective option for someone that’s not a vape snob? I just want the miller lite of vape solutions and while saving money would be great I already spend significantly less than I did on cigarettes, I mostly hate myself for all the battery and plastic waste I’m creating.
My girlfriend and I both use the little nord handheld vapes. Nord 5 or nord 50 watt is a good place to start. They're cheap enough to replace if they get broken or lost and they get the job done. Then you just need the juice. You can use any flavored juice from a vape store, or just go online and look for bulk nicotine juice, sometimes putting 'DIY' in the search can help. I got a liter for $80 recently, but prices have been rising in canada due to new restrictions. Still waaaayyyy cheaper than paying $30 for 30ml though. Then you replace the coil in the cartridge every couple weeks or when it starts to get burnt. The nice thing about the unflavored juice is no sugar or additives so it doesn't clog up the coil as fast. Super simple to use and not one of those big metal monster machines that people use to blow clouds. Fits nice in a pocket or purse.
Thank you very much for the detailed response, having a place to start makes it feel a lot more approachable.
Aside from the same "tobacco lobbyists" answer everyone else is giving, I'd also bet the hesitation comes from it being highly stable, relatively large source of tax income that governments are keen to keep going until they find a suitable replacement source.
Those that do crackdown on cigarettes do so only because they know it would be bad PR not to do so with their popularity decreasing generation to generation. They're probably thanking heaven that vaping arrived, as it gave them a can to kick down the road.
Make vaping look as disgusting as it is, the same we did for tobacco. Vaping in public is gross, portray the act as such.
Also, "These are your lungs. These are your lungs on vape."
Yeah well the “problem” if you want to call it that is that e cigarettes don’t harm your lungs anywhere near the level of tobacco smoke.
There is no “these are your lungs on vape” bc frankly your lungs will look pretty normal.
If you’re interested in the data, look at the studies that have come out of the UK and the statements their public health officials have put out.
There is a public knowledge problem in the US regarding vaping because of reporting on the short lived emergence of so called “EVALI” (ecig/vaping associated lung injury) which hospitalized some teenagers and adults.
EVALI was determined to be caused by Vitamin E Acetate which was a flavoring additive used in some illegal THC vapes. Once the cause was determined, even the shady illegal vape makers stopped using that ingredient. But the reputational damage to ecigs remained. EVALI was a US only problem and a short lived one at that.
Data broadly shows that ecigs are a much safer alternative to combustible cigarettes for nicotine consumption.
EVALI was determined to be caused by Vitamin E Acetate which was a flavoring additive used in some illegal THC vapes.
It wasn't even a flavoring additive. It was sold under the name "Honey Cut" and was used to dilute cannabis oil to rip off customers. That's why it never showed up in the legal market.
There was also the diacetyl scare that affect e juice internationally.
Regardless, the nicotine itself causes emphysema, it just takes a while so we don't have a lot of visible damage yet.
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