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Ford Chairman & CEO Jim Farley Wakes After Decade-long Nap, Shocked By China's EVs - CleanTechnica

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/09/17/ford-chairman-ceo-jim-farley-wakes-after-decade-long-nap-shocked-by-chinas-evs/

Closing in on 15 years in global marketing and sales roles for Ford, Farley goes to China and is shocked because its cars are better and cheaper.

Ford Chairman & CEO Jim Farley Wakes After Decade-long Nap, Shocked By China's EVs - CleanTechnica

cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/42676060

68 comments

webghost0101

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Oh my that damage control speech from Ford the article was forced to include does not work in the direction they hope it does.

There is actual fear to be perceived as Incompetent in there.

The reporters did very little to sugarcoat that they got told to edit it. Basically a copyPaste of fords demands of what needed to be talked about

altima_neo

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It says they went to China in 2023 though?

homesweethomeMrL

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An assessment of the global electric vehicle market and Ford merited one lukewarm, brief sentence. At the time, Farley was the Executive Vice President and President of Global Markets. If that sounds like a job that would require paying close attention to China’s reality and increasing competitiveness, it is. If that sounds like a job that should understand disruptive innovation’s death knell for firms like Ford, it is. If that sounds like a job that should have been creating strategy to deal with the reality of China’s emerging electric vehicle juggernaut, it is.

Auto industry mismanagement is redundant.

dan1101

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Ford has been too busy selling $80,000 trucks to worry about cars and EVs.

Kecessa

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They still build the only real EV truck though

SlapnutsGT

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Rivian?

Kecessa

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Unibody

invertedspear

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I get the criticism of the cyber truck, and the hummer EV is ridiculous, but why do the R1T and Silverado EV not count as trucks? R1T is an expensive but great midsize go anywhere truck. Silverado EV is a range king and a little flat looking, but still 100% “truck”. Lightning is just the all around best value of a truck. I say this as a lightning owner, there are options in this market.

Kecessa

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Only one of the three is body on frame and it's Ford's

SacralPlexus

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They almost made a truck with the Silverado EV but then they had to turn it into whatever the Avalanche is supposed to be with fins coming off the cab that get in the way of things. Anyways, not to sound bitter but some people like to be able to put camper shells, tool boxes, or other accoutrement on the back.

R1T is decent, just really expensive.

Kecessa

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And unibody

erenkoylu

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trucks are for rednecks and white trash.

Glytch

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You've never set foot outside of a city or had any contact with the people who produce your food, have you?

FauxPseudo

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Trucks are for every tradesperson that does the things you lack the time, training or tools to do when something breaks at your residence. Trucks help you move.

Honytawk

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Trucks don't do that, vans do.

In Europe every tradesperson drives a van because it is a lot more efficient and can haul way more than trucks ever can.

FauxPseudo

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Well then I guess I need a new vehicle because I'm a handyman and I use a truck. Dealing with a van full of stuff and trying to slide drywall in is kind of difficult. However, I can easily snap them on top of the bed of my truck and get moving. And it cost me a whole lot less to maintain this truck than it would to maintain a van. You ever tried carrying a ton of gravel in a van? I wouldn't. Takes much longer to load and unload that way.

GBU_28

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They carry very different loads, and both are awesome.

Robin

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And if said tradesperson doesn't want their equipment to get wet in the rain they get a van instead.

FauxPseudo

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Or they just get some storage bins. I find them to be highly effective. Allows me to load just the tools I need for a job so unloading and loading is very fast.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In

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Think of a van as an enormous truck storage bin.

FauxPseudo

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But it's got a roof which makes placing 20 foot ladders or a ton of gravel in it very awkward. The fixed volume natural of it isn't compatible with the kind of work I do. But maybe you, a person that doesn't do my job, knows more about my situation than I do.

erenkoylu

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there are way more trucks than tradespeople.

FauxPseudo

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And that doesn't invalidate my statement.

Astongt615

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Squares and rectangles

0x0

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They're the world's factory, of course they'll build better and cheaper.

erenkoylu

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China makes everything better & cheaper, not just cars.

CosmoNova

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I think you got something mixed up there. The saying does not go:

If you want it to last, buy made in China!

It goes:

Buying cheap is buying twice

And China really sells the cheapest crap there is. It isn't even a competition.

TheGrandNagus

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The secret is heavy subsidy, very little worker protections/safety, very little environmental protection, and slave labour.

WhatAmLemmy

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Don't forget the hundreds of billions that global capitalism funneled into China by "outsourcing" absolutely everything they possibly could over the last 30-40 years — devaluing developed world labour markets and environmental regulations, and winding back the clock to an unregulated slave labour market is what made it so attractive.

Lysergid

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That was my first thought, but is that much different for say Tesla. They get tax breaks and pay as low as they can. Don’t get me wrong I not protecting China’s way, I’m rather against both. But it would be interesting to see numbers from both sides

TheGrandNagus

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Yes it's very different. Tesla certainly overworks their employees by basically expecting them to do overtime, and engages in anti-union shadiness, but that pales in comparison to utilising slave labour from a religious minority group they subjugate and have even been known to sterilise, as well as harm family members of those who aren't behaving as the CCP wants them to.

Tesla still has to abide by US environmental regulations, which while not as strict as you'd find in Europe, are a hell of a lot stricter than China.

Tesla still has to follow construction and safety laws that, again while not super strict like in much of Europe, is a hell of a lot stricter than China.

The US also doesn't subsidise exported Teslas in a move to exterminate foreign car companies before ramping up prices.

IsThisAnAI

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Did you just seriously try to compare China factories to Tesla? This place really is just an absurd bubble.

For reference in Mexico they are making 5k a year vs 50k. I'm sure it's rainbows and kittens over at byd.

Serinus

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It's lemmy.ml. They're always like this.

LordWiggle

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You mean cheaper and worse, there are little to no regulations and if there are any, inspectors are paid off as China is corrupt AF. and the cheaper part is because the general factory workers are kept extremity poor to uphold the cheap labor, next to the Uyghurs in concentration camps who are forced to work for free. There are no rights or regulations for factory workers, so no protective clothing or gear, no safe work environment, while working with extremity toxic materials as those are cheaper then the safer alternatives. Working 12 to 16 hours per day, as young as 8 years old, 6 to 7 days a week, no sick days, no holidays. There is no quality control. There is media control, so every online post of a spontaneously combusted EV, which are maaaaany, is removed.

So you confuse quality with quantity. Yeah, it's cheaper. But at what cost. Not just the lives of the Chinese workers, those toxins are also in the products we use.

exanime

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Not necessarily. China makes all the fancy stuff Americans are super proud of.

If safety were a real issue, the gov wouldn't have attempted to ban them based on tariffs

Ps: your entire first paragraph could have been about American meat processors and I wouldn't have noticed

the_post_of_tom_joad

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Lol their entire comment reads like a mishmash fever-dream of state department prop. I can't even in this thread mannn ill leave these folks to to you.

LordWiggle

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Chinese government has entered chat

the_post_of_tom_joad

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Hang on, lemme make a phone call

"president xi? i've been compromised... yes, again"

LordWiggle

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If safety wouldn't be a real issue those products wouldn't be banned in the EU. Regulations in the US are often very weird, loose and corrupt as well.

Nice Americans are proud of stuff. That doesn't make it safe. Remember, there are Americans proud of Trump, guns, the cybertruck, racism, etc. "Proud" isn't a safety standard.

Ps: Nice American meat processors are fucked up as well. The entire country is fucked up. Nice. Let's be proud of it and everything becomes safe again

exanime

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Ok without devolving to ridicule every message, the point it that just because stuff is made in China, it is not necessarily cheap (as in crappy, low quality or unsafe).

I'd like to know what is unsafe about these cars and whether or not this is a real consideration. So far, all I seem to get is protectionism and platitudes.

LordWiggle

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This is a nice video which sums it up pretty well, concerning EV's. Many are coming to the US and EU market too, like BYD is doing now for example. They are growing faster then Tesla, threatening to surpass Tesla sales soon.

There are many articles about Chinese EV's spontaneously combusting or exploding. And that's just the EV's.

There are many products containing extremity toxic materials which are imported anmass through Chinese digital market places like alibaba etc, but also as parts for American produced products. Products like cheap 3D printer filament, children toys, car parts, metals, food (with pesticides), etc. It's hard to check everything, it's hard to regulate everything, especially when loads of it is produced in a country where there is little to no regulations but instead loads of corruption. It's imported by hundreds of thousands of shipping containers per day. Sure, some products are fine. But there are many which are toxic and sometimes deadly and we often find out about it way too late. Regulating takes time. China finds loopholes. It's standard operating procedures.

exanime

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But then, how tariffs make all those dangers OK?

PS: sorry but the video is just some Vlogger rant with no evidence presented.

LordWiggle

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Tariffs don't make them ok, but invisible. For instance, phones are produced in China for 95%. Then they are shipped to Vietnam, finished to 100% and shipped to the US without the China tariffs. Whatever happened in China during the 95% is unregulated and unregistered. Whenever it is shipped from China directly there are regulations for the construction of parts and the materials used. But already finished parts without this info which are imported from somewhere else can miss this info, like the 95% phones shipped to Vietnam have. Vietnam needs to declare whatever they used for the 5% for the regulations and the other 95% is declared as a pre-made product. This is how toxic materials are able to enter the western markets without anyone knowing it and how China tariffs only help covering up the use of toxins by shipping goods through hubs in other countries and the production of products without any safety regulation resulting in exploding batteries for example. And for food products to be unknowingly covered with highly toxic pesticides. Don't underestimate the corruption in China, it's like the US x2.

Oh and the video is just a yt vid, I know, but he has a lot of Chinese sources as he lived there for several years and he nicely sums up all the articles I've read about this all so far. He uncovers a lot of corruption which the Chinese government desperately tries to hide. I've seen different sources backing him up.

CaptainBasculin

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Until the brand goes poof because China didn't like something they did and poof; now you have a ghost car. Good luck finding repair parts for your car; and fixing the server connection required features

exanime

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You are correct, but that has happened with American brands (even cars) before

At half the price of other EVs, I bet an entire new class of service stores, half mechanic shop, half third party parts, half mods, would spring into existence if these cars are allowed in the market

Instead, we protect the horrible local brands

ShepherdPie

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Our tariffs aren't there to protect local brands they protect every foreign brand in the US too which make up 2/3 of the market.

Kecessa

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American manufacturers need to provide parts for 10 years after the last of the same model car rolled off the assembly line. Good luck forcing Chinese brands to respect that.

exanime

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Why? doesn't Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, SaaB and all the non-American brands already do this? why would China not be able to do it?

A ton of the parts for the American cars actually come from China, why would it be harder for China to do what they already do on behalf of the American manufacturers?

catloaf

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It's not about whether they can, it's about whether they will.

Spoiler: they won't.

exanime

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Again, not sure why you are so certain about that when China is already manufacturing the parts for the companies you trust to have them

Kecessa

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Because it's standard practice in China to just close a company and restart it under a new name. The government can decide to shut down everything overnight.

Look at parts availability for stuff sold by Chinese brands.

exanime

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I can find parts for Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Mazda, etc all made in China. Why does it work for American and foreign companies making every part they sell in China but it wouldn't work for a Chinese company

And, if that is the case, wouldn't it make more sense to just force them to establish some corporate headquarters in the USA (as they rest of the brands do)?

Kecessa

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That's established and stable brands that manufacture things in China which is completely different from Chinese brands building things in China and that can just close their doors tomorrow morning and leave the owners without any source for parts.

If an established manufacturer closes their doors tomorrow morning the same issue arises, the difference is that Chinese companies are known to do that and the Chinese government sometimes is responsible for closing them or simply doesn't care about the effect on customers. They can reopen the following day and produce the same items as before but they won't send you parts for the thing they were producing the day prior because it's not the same company anymore.

erenkoylu

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never had this experience before.

But I had exactly this issue many times with Google cancelling stuff I like.

mindlight

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That's not how you spell "Xinjang camps" ...

erenkoylu

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America has more prisoners than China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

MNByChoice

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Thank you for the reference link.

China has one hell of a note on that page:

b. See info about additional detainees, and alleged detainees, at Re-education through labor, Laogai, and Xinjiang internment camps.

TheGrandNagus

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I don't see what this has to do with the fact that China utilises slave labour from a religious minority group they are currently genociding to aid in their construction and manufacturing sector.

To my knowledge, you go to prison in the US when you commit a crime, as opposed to a labour camp where you are sterilised then made to build Fords under threat of death.

0x0

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you go to prison in the US when you commit a crime

Gotta keep'em prisons profitable...

erenkoylu

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America also uses slave prison labour

And America has more incarcerated people than China, despite China having way more people.

TheGrandNagus

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Ok, putting aside for a moment China's totally honest and not at all fudged number of incarcerated people...

The US allowing prison labour is something I'm disgusted by.

But it's still a far cry from abducting people based on their religion, sometimes sterilising them so they can't have kids, threatening them with their life, threatening their family, and forcing them to work in factories or in construction, then using that slave labour to undercut and kill foreign competition.

Don't try to twist this into a "you're complaining about China therefore you think the US is great". I'm saying China is far worse. Because they are, and only a complete muppet would think otherwise.

Maybe you're ok with what China does (slavery and genocide), but I am not.

erenkoylu

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Everything you accuse China of, the US is guilty of the same or worse. How many people in the US are in jail for the crime of being black?

I never said China is great. They are horrible. The US is just worse.

SupraMario

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No...just no. China's prison population is not counted correctly, just from their forced reeducation camps, its estimated they have 1-2 million people in them. The usa has around 1.2 million in prison. So no china does not have less prisoners. I don't know where this bullshit lie showed up but it's been repeated way to long.

Does the USA have a problem with incarcerating people for non-violent offenses, hell yes, but that's a whole different argument.

erenkoylu

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China is also much larger than US. Even with your fantasy numbers US has more prisoners per capita.

America is a authoritarian nation. You guys just killed a guy and several bystanders over a 2.9 dollar fare ffs.

SupraMario

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Lol @ fantasy numbers...only a tankie would think that.

Yea we have problems, but acting like china is better is hilariously wrong.

LouNeko

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There's no way in Hell a country with a population in the billions has lower incarnation numbers than one with a few hundred million. That is just statistically impossible. It all comes down to what you count as incarnated. This is like the US "solving" its unemployment crisis by not counting people who think about maybe looking for work sometime as not unemployed. These numbers are self reported, so they should be taken with a big grain of salt.

InverseParallax

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Because China executes at a rate 100x the US, that we know of, believed to be 1000x.

No person, no prisoner. --Stalin

Also, Tibet and Xinjiang.