While this does get pushed it's important to realize they're pushing it to take in people who feel rejected by liberals and leftists. That's why when there's a question that appears honest it's important to treat it in good faith before assuming they're a conservative troll.
There are people who spend their entire childhood hearing garbage like "black people are more disposed to criminality, because 50% of the prison population is black but only 20% of society is Black." And they just haven't ever been exposed to concepts like over policing. When you just react aggressively right away it can actually push them back into that ideology and then it's really more a matter of the people around them. Humans need community. If political or religious truths are required for membership then they will adopt them.
And yes these same rules apply to someone who grew up hearing the US is an imperialist bully state. This is why diversity in school, the workplace, church, and wherever people congregate is so damn important. We need to see that we aren't devils, that we all want the same thing. (A peaceful existence with enough distractions and the ability to provide for our family)
That's also why extremist ideologues are so hell bent on isolating people. Home schooling, as many church events as possible, sun down towns, church approved summer camp, members only clubs, intolerance of tolerance, etc.
Hey, I was homeschooled and turned out okay! ...My mom also has a bachelor of science and is, in general, a woman of science, though...so...maybe a little different for my case.
And yes these same rules apply to someone who grew up hearing the US is an imperialist bully state.
I didn't grow up hearing that, but I mean...
I see your point, and I hope I succeed in assuming people are interacting in good faith until shown otherwise most of the time, but at a certain point people also need to be responsible for questioning the narratives they have always accepted without having to be stroked and petted into doing so. (They are both the "party of personal responsibility" and also the "fuck your feelings" party, after all.)
I grew up surrounded by rah rah USA#1 jingoism and a continuous dose of cold war propaganda in almost every bit of media I consumed. (It was the 70s/80s after all) And now I know that the US is an imperialist bully state with a lot of things in its past that folks like to try wishing out of existence rather than willingly examining.
I didn't change a bunch of my opinions because the people I used to disagree with about many (not all) of these and related topics were nice to me about it. The things that have changed have changed because I was willing to consider new information.
I've learned recently that the skinhead movement used to be antiracist and leftist af. Until nazis infiltrated the skinhead punk scene.
Nazis have a rich history of stealing symbols and coopting movements. They're like hateful little magpies who steal any shiny bits of culture they find and take them back to their nests to shit all over them.
For an example see the symbol of peace that was the swastika more than 100 years ago
Antiracist and leftist is kind of an exaggeration; rather an apolitical subculture of the British working class up until the late 70s/early 80s when the National Front infiltrated the scene. This was during the second wave of the skinhead movement, the original skinheads in the 60s were influenced by West Indian immigrants to the UK, and listened mainly to ska and jamaican music, but generally not very politically conscious or involved. Kind of a rougher offshoot of the mod subculture.
The second wave of skinheads came out of the punk movement. A lot of skins were into Oi!/streetpunk and the NF made their own version which was then called RAC (Rock against communism) but is better known these days (at least in Europe) as White Power Music.
I'm not saying there weren't leftist skinheads (Redskins and Angelic Upstarts would be a good place to start) but as a subculture, the common theme is rather working class identity and pride - which unfortunately, as we've seen, can be exploited by fascist movements as well.
I had a conversation with my conservative neighbor who legitimately made this argument. He was saying that it's the left's fault for telling all these young conservative men that they're Nazis, which makes those poor impressionable young men go "well if you're going to call me a fascist then I'm going to fascist even harder just to spite you."
It does, though. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but it's natural for people to say "who welcomes me? Who attacks me?" And go with those who welcome them. Is it simplistic? Sure. But either you learn how to take on the educational and emotional burden of reaching out, or you have extra enemies.
Yeah, I know when I'm just hanging out and meet a bunch of nazis talking about how jews and blacks need to be exterminated, I feel welcomed and understood.
They were racist before, they're comfortable because they finally get to take off their masks, or hoods in this case.
Important caveat: telling a person their ideology is hateful isn't "an attack," and letting them continue to wallow in ignorance is more unkind than enlightening them.
That they feel attacked is another issue. We still have to deal with the consequences of this, and should be cognizant of it, but at the end of the day let us not lose the plot and start conflating their sensitivity with offensive language as if they weren't two very different things.
Indeed. The raw fact of how people tend to work doesn't make it right. It's just that hating on them for it is ineffectual.
but it’s natural for people to say “who welcomes me? Who attacks me?” And go with those who welcome them.
The people in my life who are wearing the red hats are essentially always the ones attacking, despite making up a tiny fraction of the people in my social sphere. The rest of us just spend every family gathering or social event hoping they won't start spouting off this time, and offering zero of our own opinions because we know they absolutely will start spouting off if we do. They have a chilling effect on topics that anyone can discuss, compared to what we can discuss when they are not there.
So yeah, IME they are the oppressors from Trump all the way down.
My maga neighbor across the street has no idea if I'd welcome him or not, because his yard is full of hand lettered signs letting me know in no uncertain terms that anyone who votes like I do is a moron/traitor, etc. So I just pretend he doesn't exist, and hope he and his (continuous stream of) visiting buddies don't blow up the neighborhood or get careless with their guns one day.
The one and only sign he does have in spanish is the one letting everyone know he's got a surveillance system though. That's probably not racist though...
Totally get that. I'm not at saying they're not going to socially attack you. I'm just saying that ridicule in return is ineffectual.
But so is being overly soft.
This is true, but it's also incredibly dumb. Like teens that choose to hang out with local drug gangs and throw their future away. You can see why it happens, but it's so wasteful and stupid, and always ends in misery.
What we are ultimately talking about is the depth of stupidity that people are capable of.
Before the flathearthers, Tea Party, Q-anon and the MAGA movements, we simply did not account for just how fucking dumb the average person can be under bad circumstances.
This is the essence of Trump's rise to power. His political advisors called this "an opportunity" and tripled down on it. They believed that a bad-faith movement could build a coalition of the mentally unstable, susceptible morons, cultish religion indoctrinated, under-educated and socially fringed. Easily swept up with Nazi-style messaging and politics.
The solution: At an individual level, if you know someone you seek to save, work to expose them to real information by being a positive and understanding presence in their lives, and slowly showing them the way out of the prison of stupidity inside their own heads.
At a global level, we must exact hard costs on their movement as a whole and each participant as people. We must make it highly expensive and damaging to support fascism. They are already paying the price of being marginalized socially, but costs need to be much higher.
This cost is the reason Trump has not been able to inspire his moron minions to violence in the last couple years. They see that MAGA minions get imprisoned, their lives ruined, and possibly shot in the head, and they simply don't turn up for Trump's calls to violence anymore. The public cost of participation in fascism works as a deterrent, so we need to crank up the costs significantly higher.
If they think they are going to double down on fascism because you called them out, then you must triple down on exacting a price for their bullshit. At some point they'll realize it's not worth it. Just like all these MAGA men on dating apps now pretending to be apolitical because they can't get any women to take them seriously. Suddenly, the pride in their shitty convictions is out the window when they realize they won't be allowed to participate in society. Keep making them pay the price of choosing poorly. The harder you hit them, the faster you help them do some much needed introspection.
"I used to hold very strong leftist values and principles up until someone on the internet hurt my feelings."
Why did Rage Against the Machine have to get so political? Why couldn't they just stick to their music?
Proceeds to spout incredibly offensive and uneducated xenophobic take revealing they've never had a personal relationship with a person of color or other marginalized group
In a different context: EDIT: And not Related to the main point of the post.
The nazis did have cool uniforms and i think there is something super woke and punk about wearing a version of one where all the symbols are defiled or replaced.
There is a certain something in denying fascist the power to claim an outfit or even such ancient symbol, and liberating fashion. But especially symbolism is easily misunderstood. You need very obvious irony or anti symbolism to pull it off.
I think making marginalised people around you not have to get close enough to check out your emblems before they get the fuck out of your vicinity is orders of magnitude more important than "reclaiming" "cool" uniforms that were never yours to claim in the first place unless you're a Nazi yourself, and aren't really cool at all unless you're in to authoritarianism (and if that's your kink, whatever, but you don't get to inflict fear on to non consenting participants with it).
There are plenty of other uniform like cloths for you to wear, deliberately making yourself look like a Nazi isn't doing positive shit for anyone.
I am not saying i want to don a nazi cosplay, and i did express that in reality this is complicated.
Its more the principle of “i cannot do this” even if i have non offensive intentions, because if i do people will associate it with the bad intentions.
To me this leaves a dirty feeling of them having a super minor grip over creative choices.
Admittedly a lot of this is coming from a core memory of mine where a very young and innocent artistic child had to come to terms that i am not allowed to draw the momentum of windmills.
I love geometry a lot more then i like uniforms, but the same philosophical pattern applies.
That's a lot of words to say you care more about "aesthetic" than you do about the people around you feeling safe.
I do not.
A vast misinterpretation on your terms. I am sorry to say.
I can asure you my genuine outfit is as neutral and boring as it gets. Neither did i obtain a career where i can make geometric art for public display.
If you read my words a bit better you may realize i am expressing the concept and a power struggle, rather then actual action.
From my point of view you are, without intending to do so ,empowering and legitimizing a oppressive ideology.
You appear very butthurt that I suggest defiling nazi symbolism and appropriating the tools they are using to express their ideology.
At this point people who claim to not understand what i said are unwilling to actually read or no longer acting in good faith.
If that is not the case then please reflect that as a antifascist i have no reason to start a fight with you.
Leftist fighting only serves the right.
wrong place bub.
I'm all for reclaiming the toothbrush mustache but this has nothing to do with this thread.
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That is incorrect. The SS uniform mentioned in the third panel means their comment has something to do with this thread. It may not be the main point, but it is something.
That's actually a very cool idea.
Do a proper SS leather jacket but with a defiled swastika all over the back (so no one can mistake it) and reclaim it?
I'd probably not use the red band.
And would this become problematic in a decade when the jackets get normalised and mainstream (probably without the punk defiling)?
It's been done before
I saw a guy wearing an SS uniform but the armband was a rainbow and the SS insignias were all 2 dildos arranged in a 69 pattern once. Probably some more details but that's what I remember after all these years
This was at a gay pride parade before it was federally legalized here and if I recall right he said it was a joke on how many people thought he gay agenda was coming for them
Dude looked good
Some things are forever ruined and that uniform and the swastika are sadly among them, at least in the West.
If that's some kind of dunk because of me being on ml, YSK I'm not a communist. Beyond that, I don't really understand your point, which is fine.
If someone has a flaw and you accuse them of being much worse than it is, it does push them away and make them think that maybe other people who are also getting accused unjustly, making them more willing to listen and get influenced by those people. The probability they get lulled into a bubble becomes much higher. It's why a lot of families that trusted each other have been broken up by politics. This comic had been reposted before but it is also incredibly reductive.
But if you seriously believe those other guys are that bad, just break out into a civil/world war already, there's basically no other way to solve that problem... Maybe the US really should dissolve into multiple nations.
Nobody is being accused unjustly by comparing them to Nazis. If you cannot see the parallels you are ignorant of history. I understand they don't like it.
A lot of families that trusted each other have been broken up by family members deciding to worship a racist demagogue.
No, I see the parallels perfectly, since I'm not blind to an argument like you are.
https://lemm.ee/post/42673367/14904356
The problem is on your side, not seeing that that was also what happened to those pulled into the Nazi cult of personality. The fact that you are as oblivious as a Trumper to it when I literally mention world war in my second sentence is astounding, but not surprising.
You're really confused. I hope you are able to organize your thoughts on this. Maybe a different attempt in another thread you'll be able to understand things better.
Calling out racism doesn't make me responsible for said racism. That's a really weird take for you to make.
Wow, a comic character simply pointing out that Trump.people are racist sure seems to have hit a nerve.
I love how people like you are the flip side equal of Trump people warping reality to shit on it. Same bullshit, both sides aren't equal but people like you certainly resemble them closer.
The whole MAGA messaging is anti immigration, but only focused on brown immigrants, and has been since it started in 2016. Trump and Vance are currently apreading lies about Haitian immigrants eating pets.
Anyone who is a Trump person supports racism and that makes them racist.
The MAGA movement definitely plays on and has racist undertones. But everything I've said still stands, and you are still only seeing extremes. Maybe the nerve that was hit was you pissing on centuries of psychology about cults and how people like you are as willing as them to burn bridges.
Victims of cults initially fall for positive messaging and are slowly tricked into accepting more and more horrible cult programming over time. MAGA started with the horrible cult programming and there was nothing to fall for.
MAGA is like if Jim Jones started at the step where he was promoting mass suicide.
But if you seriously believe those other guys are that bad, just break out into a civil/world war already, there's basically no other way to solve that problem...
That's quite reductive. One can see someone as that bad, but still find them redeemable. But it's a two way street. There needs to be a bit of personal responsibility.
It is reductive, mostly because I'm not capable of considering someone redeemable and irredeemable at the same time. Take your pick. It is a two way street, and you see them as that flawed and they certainly aren't going to cross outside of their bubble, no chance to ever meet on that street.
I don't live in lala land, but then again, I'm not the one seeing all of them that flawed. To me, that's like saying that every member of a cult that went to do something infamous was despicable, it shows zero psychological awareness.
One of the things that cults do is carve off people from the wider populace. It's them that say "everyone is against you" it's them that say that "there's no way back, so you might as well throw your lot in with us. We are the only ones that understand and accept you. As long as you behave in a way that we feel is acceptable, or do something for us".
Staying in the cult starts off the easy path rather than seek to change yourself. Then, after a while you start falling for the sunk cost fallacy. It's that, that keeps you in the long term even when times get tough.
But, there is always redemption, a way out. And blaming your whole life on other people isn't a particularly efficient tactic. Again, personal responsibility.
Then either they are that flawed and are really literal Nazis getting their Nazi tattoos, or they get increasingly sucked into participating within a cult, take your pick.
You know one way that helps them carve off people from the wider populace? Being accused of having a flaw greater than it really is, carving them away from those they should be sticking to from their side and letting them be pulled into the cult's bubble. And for many, that flaw is simply being senile, not racist, and even then still generally needing a fair dose of cult programming to eventually instill those racist sentiments.