I was sceptical about the lack of sources so I DDG'd it:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-cec/index.html
Fastest way to get caught hiring undocumented workers is to not pay their employment taxes.
Stupid question: If undocumented, how are they verifiably paying anything close to this figure in taxes? Pls respond
They can request and may be assigned an individual tax ID number (ITIN). Having an ITIN may allow them to open a bank account. It also makes it so they pay taxes which a surprising number want to do. Since they want to stay in the country, having a long history of paying taxes is a way to show you don't want to cause trouble and you just want to work. Hell, a lot of them probably know they got Al Capone on tax evasion and don't want to end up like him. Here's a report I just Googled, and possibly the source of the number which is an estimate.
On the other side is how much tax funding is used on them. Here's a report from the House of Representatives which states they use more in services (Medicare, WIC, sending kids to school, etc) than they pay. I can't speak to how accurate the report is considering the makeup and views publicly expressed by members of the committee. I'm personally leaning towards 'they don't, and can't, use as more than they contribute' because they're not eligible for many benefits.
I love how in your last article it's a human centipede ouroboros
Macgregor said that “every alleged asylum seeker, illegal migrant pouring in through the border in Texas or wherever else” is given a monthly payment of $2,200.
Gheen added that ALIPAC “did not make the original claim about the $2,200,” pointing to Carlson’s interview with Macgregor as its source.
Macgregor cited an article published by a Houston radio station on its website to support the claim he made during the interview, which quotes Gheen and the ALIPAC release. The article was published a week after his interview.
Not all taxes are collected, much of what we pay in taxes is added on to the cost of things.
How would that be tracked as "spent by an undocumented immigrant"?
As undocumented immigrants, they'd be unable to have bank accounts, so all of their payments would be in cash wouldn't they?
"unable to have bank accounts"
Believe it or not Mexican debit cards are accepted in the United States.
So then the logical question follows: are we tracking sales tax spent by foreign debit cards and attributing those expenses to be from only undocumented immigrants?
Seems to me that no matter how you slice it, whichever way the reports are being compiled, the accuracy is going to be extremely low.
Sensible question. Nobody even knows how many undocumented people are in a country - because they're undocumented.
This has to be a made up figure. The sentiment might be correct but the data is dubious.
It's explained upthread. You can get an ITIN to pay taxes if you don't have a Social Security Number. The estimate is from the amount collected by the IRS from people with ITINs.
No, freeloaders are the not white ilegal imigrants. White imigrants are great!
edit: adding the s/ since some people here are old and don't get it
Ok so if "white" is a color but nobody is actually "white" does that mean that we have solved racism? Finally realized that everyone just has a slight shade of brown difference?
WOW! I love living in the early 2000's! Fuck you all and your flying cars you 3000's assholes! Sure I'll die in this millennium before we meet aliens from outer space, but at least I don't have to purchase oxygen in plastic bags on a daily basis from Trump-Tesla, your friendly oxygen company!
Yes, but corporations pay into the system in other ways. Take for example the time Duke Energy had a big coal ash spill into a river. They took the income resources they had and not only paid a fair fine price, cleaned up the...
Wait. No they didn't. They passed on all the costs to their customers. Fortunately those customers were able to use the free market and choose another provider...
Wait. No, they can't. Huh. That IS a freeloader.
Oh yes, I remember this. Duke assessed the river bed and determined that a cleanup could cause more damage and would be super expensive. So they did no cleanup AND increased rates.
Its funny how much owning a successful business sound exactly like being a lazy, work-shy layabout who does nothing while living off of other people's hard work.
I don't think they care. I think they just say they are free loaders because what they really feel is hate towards people of other races and ethnicities, but they can't say it out load or often even admit it to themselves.
More often than not they're ashamed their wic is funded in large part by illegals. Pride is dangerous as fuck.
Posts like this are important, but unfortunately in vain, I'm afraid. Those who still don't understand it will never understand it. I think they don't want to. I don't get it.
I'd say it's still important to post and talk about, not for the people who know and don't care, but for the people who don't know and do care.
Yes, I think so too. I just can't understand why so many people aren't able to hold those who are to blame for their misery to account. Instead, they allow themselves to be duped by their own enemies. It is incomprehensible to me how people can be so stupid.
Post like this are misinformation because people don't understand the difference between revenue and profit.
Oh yes. For the individual, very few costs can be deducted from taxes, and investments are not considered costs.
There's also different tax rates and subsidies available to businesses that individuals can't access.
But my point stands. People always get angry about large revenues which are not taxed. Changing the system so that a tax is also levied above the line is not impossible.
Racism is either a symptom or a tool:
Those who cant make sense of their situation being unsatisfactory may fall prey to it to soothe themselves.
Those who hoard all of the worlds wealth use it to distract from that fact.
Worth noting that a lot of the people raging about immigrants don’t see themselves as racist.
I have a quote that fits this situation well:
When you‘re dead, you do not know you are dead. Its only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid.
It's not about inability to understand, mind, it's about unwillingness to understand.
There are plenty of people who have mental deficiencies who are well aware of that, and how much trouble they have understanding the world around them. But they at least try.
The same can not be said for those who are perfectly capable of understanding, yet simply choose not to.
Or themselves as immigrants, for that matter.
A German settler calling a Hispanic migrant "illegal" really says something about the legal and social zeitgeist.
I'd actually be willing to bet that we (the US taxpayer) paid those corporations for the privilege of their continued existence
Durrr. We need them to trickle down on some workers cause otherwise there wouldn't be any jobs.
Indeed, they could simply choose to bunker their wealth in a tax oasis and just keep taking and taking without ever giving anything back. And according to studies they do exactly that.
...
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Anyway, what was I talking about? Oh yes, the precipitations that they do decide to shower those beneath them with are then obviously worth their weight in gold. A golden shower, if you will.
Reading about The Bracero Program seems kind of wild in today's anti-immigrant US climate.
The Bracero Program (from the Spanish term bracero [bɾaˈse.ɾo], meaning "manual laborer" or "one who works using his arms") was a U.S. Government-sponsored program that imported Mexican farm and railroad workers into the United States between the years 1942 and 1964.
Temporary agricultural worker visas are one of the types of work visa with no limit, and actually have more protections than a lot of regular US workers. They still hire illegals because illegals are cheaper.
Obviously the substance of the post is important but I did do a double take at his name, remembering that yes, this is indeed Robert Reich, former US secretary of labor, father of Sam Reich, a silly little man who makes his cast play silly little games.
He worked for multiple presidential administrations and was in the cabinet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Reich
Freeloaders are the people taking up dramatically more resources than the value one human can produce.
Trump is not a free-loader though!? And now that I've planted that thought... can you remind me why not exactly - asking for a friend? :-P
•
He’s not a freeloader because he pays his fair share of taxes…. Wait a minute
He’s not a freeloader because he takes on the risks of a job creator, including any financial losses…. Crap, nope
He’s not a freeloader because when he contracts put work he pays on time what was agreed ….. can you see the pattern?
- "conservatives" Republicans
Oh wait my bad that's 1 Thessalonians 5:21, oh well nobody seems to care.
The duty of the working person is to pay tithes to the ruling class. But these workers are also using public services and benefiting from public works.
The only solution is to privatize more state functions, in order to make sure all immigrants continue to surrender their surplus value to the native aristocracy.
And no more eating! I don't want to see any Haitians who look well fed. We all know what that means. Haitians are supposed to be in a half starved state at all times. Otherwise, I just know they're up to something.
I notice we’re comparing “taxes” in one column to “federal income taxes” in the other column. I wonder why.
I remembered the american billions, I remembered to use the currency symbol before the number. But it was finally the simple point, instead of a comma, which defeated me.
Thank you! I spent like 5 mins wondering do they pay between 5k and 3k a year and why is the comment below mentioning $5 and $3
Those are thousands. Other countries use periods like we use commas. The tell is 3 zeros instead of two.
How much was paid with employee income tax? How much was paid with VAT?
How much did immigrants take out of the system?
This is the most biased one sided comparison.
It's strange how in the when businesses employee people and that wage gets taxed that's 100% on the employee. But when a business sells a product and it gets taxed that's 100% on the customer.
Nah Bro, it's biased against poor and pro rich. Taxes on income are nothing the company pays, it's paid by the employees.
Taxes on profits and gains are circumvented by "declaring necessary investments" to set the net profit to 0.
I know there are cases where this is legit, but I doubt, Amazon and others just steal.
From an economic perspective it's largely the same.
Research and development is important for long term growth that's why governments do their best to financially encourage it.
But this is Lemmy. Might as well be talking to a spam sandwich when it comes to economics.
Well a Billionaires Super-Yavht technically generates Jobs, is good for the economy and so on.... still it's a waste of resources (= environment dies a little for nothing).
If companies would actually "invest" in RnD as much as you imply, we would be at a vastly different technological state. Capitalism is like, infinite Solar energy? Nah, let's distribute fake news and manipulate the voters (Started in the 70s after Carter). It's just braindead at this point.
Yeah nah, I think we will never discuss on one level. It's like easy to dismiss others arguments as stupid, because "Lemmy", while cosplaying capitalist fanboy.
Undocumented immigrants can't file income tax, because they are undocumented. However, they also can't utilize the majority of our costly social services, because they, obviously, don't have documentation. They can't sign up for welfare programs, utilize police resources for fear of being deported, etc.
Overall though, they are also human. They produce similar economic demand to Americans. They pay sales tax. Their landlord pays tax on their rent. They are also often paid less than Americans because they have no ability to enforce the law through legal means (again, for fear of being deported), but still have to buy things like food, which is taxed.
Thus, they tend to, at a bare minimum, take roughly about what they put in, leaving a mostly neutral effect on the economy.
Immigration is generally regarded to boost innovation overall, lead to higher education rates within the workforce, and creates higher overall economic productivity., which is an effect on the economy that isn't just taxes in, taxes out.
Of course, the best option we have is to grant them amnesty, because that then means they can file & pay income taxes, can more easily be statistically measured and analyzed as a group, and can engage in class solidarity through union organization, which raises working conditions and wages for all workers.
An easy example is not paying income tax. Some illegals work for cash because they're undocumented and so pay no income tax. When that person uses public stuff like roads and local dog parks and anything that's ultimately paid for with taxes, they're taking benefits and not paying back into the system.
Whether or not we might want to deport someone or otherwise punish them for this "freeloading" is a separate question, but I don't think there's much of an argument to say that no amount of freeloading is happening at all.
Define "freeloading" for me. They don't have access to big social services (TANF, SSI, etc) due to not having documentation, roads are funded through fuel taxes as far as I'm aware (so if they're pumping gas, they're paying for the roads), dog parks are usually paid out of local sales tax (again, only as far as I know, I live in GA and we're a fucked up state a lot of times).
Income tax is a big one, but not on a small scale (like municipal level)... Hell, I haven't ever had a local income tax that I can remember.
Yeah I take your meaning that the severity of the freeloading is negligible in most cases.
I was just trying to demonstrate how an illegal immigrant could in principal be "taking" from the system for the person who asked.
Hmmm yes, they can go for a walk in a park. But they can't use TANF, Medicaid, SSI/SSDI, SNAP, or anything else that requires means testing. While they do get taxes withheld from their paycheck. So they are actually paying for that park.
Yes some are on a cash only, under the table arrangement. But 100 billion dollars worth of them are not. Banks don't require proof of citizenship, and states that aren't busy trying to shoot themselves in the foot aren't checking citizenship for work. So they get taxes, the immigrants get worker protections, and life goes on as normal.
Well that's just the level of economic understanding on this website. Immigrants get everything for free but everyone else pays for society at large.
Illegals pay taxes bud. I’m sorry you didn’t know that. When they buy groceries they are taxed. Everything they buy is taxed. The only thing they are getting away with is federal and state taxes but there are plenty of Americans that don’t pay their taxes either.
Everything the tv is telling you about undocumented workers is a lie. Even the numbers. Some of your favorite brands are perpetuating the problem because they love to hire these “freeloaders” and pay them poverty wages and not tell anyone. Tyson is one of the biggest employers of illegal immigrants.
If the Republican Party gave a shit about fixing the issue they would stop allowing businesses to hire these people.
The only thing they are getting away with is federal and state taxes
So much wrong with this post. First, the US does not have a VAT. Second, why would you ascribe an employees wages to the employer? Isn’t it the employees skills that earns them a wage? Third, what do you even mean with “undocumented “ migrants taking out of the system? They are undocumented and thus don’t have access to social security/medicaid etc.
Imma go ahead and say the income tax & VAT combined don't equal 97B.
Additionally, imma guess immigrants took out much less than the 97B they put into the system.
Fact check me.
That's not how fact checking works.
Someone's made a stupid text on image post incorrectly comparing things and didn't even back that up.
Here's the study. Robert Reich is a former Secretary of Labor known for pushing worker's rights. He's generally pretty credible.
Funny how that person responded to everyone except for you. You being the person who provided evidence that likely proves them completely wrong.
Mustn't draw attention to the argument that beats mine.
We don't have VAT in the US and we don't track sales tax. This is from two sources. Immigrants that can use a tax ID number, and immigrants that cannot but still have taxes withheld from their paycheck. So the only effect is they can't get a refund.
Just say you care about money more than people. It's quicker and easier to ignore you than when you sputter out some pseudointellectual nonsense.
hi i'm robert reich and i have no idea what is going on or why at any time and that's my whole thing