That reminds me of a conversation I had with a preacher. I asked, if god is a loving god why does the Bible say to fear him? His answer? Fear means love.
Turn the gaslight off already!
"He'll send you to a place full of fire, and death, and burning, and smoke, and brimstone to be tortured for all eternity... But he loves you!"
Christ does Christians do say canonically that the church is like Christ's wife.
Marriage—Christ and the Church
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
(Ephesians 5:22-24)
And bridal theology goes back to the Old Testament, in Song of Songs.
That's not canonical to Jesus.
Anything written by Paul is suspect. Dude just showed up after Jesus died and started writing letters like he was some sort of authority. He's the source of many of the problematic parts of Christianity, like that and original sin.
Some Muslim scholars think he was deliberately trying to weaken Christianity on behalf of Judaism. Thomas Jefferson called him "The First Corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus"
They forfeit any courtesy towards their stories once real people are hurt by them, so fuck em.
Yeah it's where we get a lot of purity doctrine as well... But when you read it you get the sense that Paul is a sex repulsed asexual. He's like "well if you gotta do it be married... But also like just don't if you can."
Paul just comes across as an opportunistic narcissist riding on Jesus's popularity and codifying things in a way people will do whatever he wants. "Give me (err mean my church) lots of money and listen to me and do what my most loyal friends tell you to and you'll... Go to heaven... Yeah!"
What's the source for the Jefferson quote? I'd like to show it to a few Christian American Supremacists I know.
Won't sway them but here you go: https://tjrs.monticello.org/letter/1559
Christofascists generally view anything that challenges their world view as heresy and/or a lie. You can't sway them with facts.
Thank you. I'm aware it won't change their minds however for one of them I have been established as a source of correct information (close relative and lifetime of giving them correct info)...
They don't seem to internalize the information but I still try to provide them with correct information to counter the christofasc programming.
Sorry, that's Paul. Paul was trying to fit the young Christian church into acceptable Roman society. All the crazy shit in the new testament (controlling abusive crazy shit, not psychedelic type crazy shit, that was John the Elder) is from Paul. Paul is a piece of shit.
Thanks for pointing out that it was Paul not Jesus who said that. I feel silly now. Corrected my comment.
Conversely, cells that grow despite being told not to are referred to cancer, and computer programs that refuse to listen to the OS are called variations of "undead" (unless its intentional and then then it's a "virus" or "trojan" or "worm" or some such).
So fuck religion, and especially those perverts who twist it around to feed their own ends at the expense of others - even Jesus said that much, on both counts - but philosophically I wanted to point out that this is an improper comparison between a marriage, with presumption of equality, vs. a very much unequal relationship between, if we are talking Christian, a creator and their created beings, or more broadly a higher vs. lower being. e.g., who among us doesn't get mad at our household appliances & tools if they do not work precisely as we want them to, every time?
i.e. while there are some fantastic arguments against religion or more specifically Christianity, chief among them being hypocritical-as-shit fundies, this is not one of them imho.
Household appliances aren’t living beings.
A more apt comparison would be beating your pet for not listening to you. Which is evil.
The Abrahamic god is evil.
The Abrahamic god is evil.
Its a fiction, so it can be whatever you like.
I tend to see people fixate on the ugly and abusive verses when they are trying to justify violence. But if I picked up a copy of "Conan the Barbarian", read the bit where he says what is best in life is "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!", and then start swinging a baseball bat at anyone nearby I don't like, it would be a wildly insincere to assert "Conan is evil because look at all the people with baseball bat injuries around me!"
Don't confuse the problems of an Evil God with the problems of Evil People who are looking for social permission.
I’m not talking about specific verses, I’m talking about the actions of the abrahamic god as depicted in the texts. The actions of the abrahamic god are consistently abusive at the least, when he’s not being full-on genocidal.
I’m talking about the actions of the abrahamic god as depicted in the texts
It's a fictional creature, though. If you don't like those texts, just go read the apocrypha instead. Or write your own fan fiction, like the Mormons did.
Viola, the Abrahamiv God is good again.
Household appliances aren’t living beings.
I mean... not currently, no. Star Trek - standing on the shoulders of giants like Isaac Asimov ofc - does a fantastic job of exploring a variety of scenarios where they are, examples including Data in TNG and the holographic doctor in Voyager. But the main reason that humanity has not (again: yet!) created "living" appliances is lack of ability, though we seem to be fast closing this gap.
When we do, how will we relate to them then - will we demand their service? Force it? e.g. would you give your toilet a choice to flush or not? Perhaps you would, but only after having given it the ability to feel pleasure whenever you (as the Master) use it? Even if so, what if it decided, despite that, to never flush again? Or conversely, perhaps its the act flushing that gives it pleasure, so it flushes constantly all day long, using up your corporate-sponsored daily allotment of water - what do you do then? You NEED a toilet still... but this one doesn't work. Also this one is using up resources that you also NEED (in order to live yourself). Or maybe you are so wealthy that the loss of one toilet doesn't matter, but then again the loss of a large number of toilets, who I guess talk to one another on the internet in this example, would be too great to bear?
"God" is not the only one who is rather brutal - we can be quite brutal ourselves. Therefore we expect it of others. Conversely, if you believe the bible - that's not an accusation, I'm just saying it's good to consider multiple POVs - then humanity is brutal b/c God was such first, and that was a trait inherited in the copy process.
The Abrahamic god is evil.
I advise thinking beyond such simplistic terms but... by your definition, yes. e.g. when he reportedly punished I think it was Joshua for not killing every last man, woman, and child from a village - including toddlers + even those still in their mothers' wombs, & even the animals too - as the invaders took over the land that they were pillaging, but were not ruthless enough.
People forget that the original name for God is not "the santa-claus/easter bunny who brings good gifts (chocolate!) if you've been good all year long", or even "Jehova" but rather what translates essentially to t̶̳͠h̷͓̔e̴͆ͅ f̵̼̽e̴͆ͅa̵̛̦r̴͍̓, like He was some eldritch monstrosity (b/c to those primitives, He was!). For someone who actually believes in God, unlike the numbnuts fundies, they are - or at least should be - terribly afraid of Him. All the more so when they make shit up and talk in His name. Jesus may have come as a lamb (translation: gently), once, but even the New Testament makes mention that He will return later as a lion (translation: killing everyone on earth). For the sake of argument, just imagine that if it were to be believed, I picture it sorta like the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where the aliens are like "okay, the earth is mine now, gtfo!":-P Which is just about the furthest thing from "nice" as you can get!
Anyway, He is indeed reputed by the original texts to be quite brutal, therefore the people engaging in revisionist history of what they claim to believe in are idiots living in a fantasy dreamland of their own design. I presume b/c it's more comfortable that way, since nothing whatsoever is demanded of them, especially in Christianity but also not much was asked in its predecessor Judaism either, mostly just sacrifices every time you are bad (even/especially if it was intentional). Which tbf seems to be human nature, common to all religions + atheism alike:-|.
I think giving sentience and consciousness to a household appliance for the only purpose of serving you - especially one whose sole purpose is to be shit on - would be an awful thing to do. Kinda like creating humanity for the sole purpose of worshipping you and then getting pissed when they live their own lives instead. Creating life for the sole purpose of subservience is horrible, add on the threat of damnation for disobedience and that would make you, yes, evil.
Okay but... what is the "purpose" of anything at all? Like, what does Facebook "do"? To its CEOs & stockholders, and to a vastly lesser degree the programmers, it manufactures money, with an input of electricity and people's time & attention spans. To the end-users though, it's a place to both send and receive, the former mostly cat & child photos, the latter seemingly, numerically speaking at least, vaguely nazi-like propaganda, including anti-vaxxer conspiracy nonsense ultimately paid for, some say, by the Russian government. Which brings up another sense of purpose: to distribute someone's "agenda", either of actual information, misinformation, or even straight-up disinformation.
Therefore I doubt very much that someone will manufacture sentience and consciousness for the ultimate purpose of placing into a household appliance... but if someone were to do the former, and then found that it's cheaper to simply hack away the sentience than to build up a new AI model without sentience included - let's say 10 minutes for the former, compared with perhaps 10 hours for the latter - but then oopsie they messed it up, and the machine may not be able to speak coherently when talked to, yet it still dreams when it is powered down in the master's nighttime or while they are away on trips that could still happen?
Who is to say what is the purpose that any higher being may have created us for? Perhaps our sole purpose is to simply exist, yet that is why those conditions were created - "don't murder, don't steal, don't rape your neighbor's property oops I mean wifey-poo, ...", all of those just flat make sense. Especially to a bunch of uncivilized, barely coherent ancient people's who didn't even wipe their butts after they pooped. Seriously, consider how many of those "religious rules" were things like "clean your ass", "when you see mold, fucking DESTROY it before it spreads", "don't drink pig's blood (b/c of Salmonella uh, I mean b/c I say so)", and it goes on and on "just just kill someone b/c you want to, but sometimes you know, you gotta do what you gotta do, so like here are the specific conditions that you are allowed to: self-defense, if they killed a friend of yours first [but NOT if they manage to flee to a certain "sanctuary city", UNLESS you manage to capture them outside of the walls of that city, and then it's all good] - but not just ANYONE can kill them, only the direct family members of those that were harmed", etc.
So whether this was like a time traveling situation, or aliens, or even just things that fucking made sense but people wouldn't do them unless/until they were wrapped up in "religious" language, whatever it is, there is a lotta good - yes as well as a lotta bad - inside of those texts. And most important of all: it wasn't meant for us, but rather them, those for whom the idea of washing their hands prior to eating was a really bizarre concept. If we are going to set ourselves up to be judges of someone else, then we need to hold ourselves to a REALLY high standard, and fully understand the implications of that. And - this is just my pov you understand - I think that means that we need to go beyond labelling something as merely "good" or "evil", and see deeper beyond it.
As e.g. the famous (an avid atheist apologist if that matters) philosopher Daniel Dennet did, in his book "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", where he argues that religions helped mankind get over the earlier tribal, then nationalistic thinking process. e.g. you might be from Rome and I might be from Gaul, but if we are both "brothers" - not by blood, not by tribe, not even by nation, but by some other shared bond, in this case religion - then let's not fight and rather find a way to coexist peacefully, perhaps even more fully together? (as in help out in the fight against nature, or other non-us groups that may attack either of us separately, but with allies we stand a better chance, b/c Apes Together Strong:-P)
But anyway, as I mentioned earlier, even Jesus was staunchly anti-religion in the form of being anti-hypocrite, so getting back to your point: as humans, we've already created full-on living organisms for our pleasures. This is not sci-fi, we've done it since 1978 when we engineered a bacterium to carry the gene for human insulin. And you can for sure bet that those bacteria that did not uptake the gene were destroyed, aka killed, plus any batch that later loses it would also be killed (as would the large majority of those that do NOT lose the gene too, just b/c it's easier to fuck them up and re-make new ones than to recover them all in the bio-chemical cyclical manufacturing process). Okay, so that's not so much "creation" so much as "artificial modification", the same as we've done for e.g. dogs for millennia, just quicker, but we are getting closer to doing stuff de novo all the time - like inside a computer I mean, b/c even if we manufacture DNA we'd still be merely copying what nature has given us, just more abstractly in that case. And you know that when we do arrive there, we'll step over that line in a heartbeat, without a second's pause or hesitation as to whether we "should". It's just who we are.
Therefore, like everything else, any judgement that we pass - onto "God" or whoever - is also a mirror, reflecting how we judge ourselves. WE are evil, aside from any religious nomenclature, bc I'm using your very own terms here: "Creating life for the sole purpose of subservience is horrible, add on the threat of damnation for disobedience and that would make you, yes, evil" - and I'm saying, we've been doing this since at least 1978, and that's purely talking about genetic engineering, whereas if you include a wider definition that includes e.g. what we've done to dogs, then we were very likely doing that before we became Homo sapiens. (Caveats: we cannot create sentience... yet, nor create it de novo, again yet, but again, it's only a matter of time before we do one and then the other, in whatever order.)
A "God" though, might be evil, or might not be, but either way it's bound to be... "different", from who we are? Unless, arguably worst-case scenario, it's the same, and then we're fucked. And I think that's what scares people - thinking that "if God were like me, what will He end up doing to me?" (assuming He's real ofc, even just as a hypothetical thought experiment, though all such thought experiments are that way so this one is no different in that regard) Therefore, this will sound weird, I find the Bible kinda offering hope, that a creator God is not like us - He is so much more brutal than any human that has ever walked the earth yes, but strangely... less brutal than He could be, aka less brutal than either you or I would be - nay, already are. Just look at the computer programs we are conversing on - one single misstep and we'll kill this MFer and reboot it, without any hesitation whatsoever. If that makes us, or rather reveals that we are, evil... then that's that, but we aren't going to like... stop or not do that or anything. We show no love to things we consider "lower" than us, no matter how kind we might be to those of us in our same "tribe" or "category", especially when we think that someone is watching us, and therefore might be rewarded - hey, it's just monkey behavior, we can't avoid our heritage and it does no use to deny that, even as we struggle to rise above it, pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps. So why should we expect any different? B/c our parents took care of us? But "God" is no parent. B/c society offers us "rights"? God is again no society, or at least not one on this Earth.
Though if God were like The Matrix, then He could be a network of computer AIs, existing in a higher "dimensional plane of existence" or however you would say that in a non-bullcrap-sounding way, totally within physical principles you know what I mean? Or if God were an intergalactic society, which like half a million years ago cast proto-humans down to have to start over technologically b/c of some prior infraction, like stealing an emperor's apple or whatever, then in either case such a "God" actually could be a type of society, irl? Or in that movie "Knowing" with Nicholas Cage, I don't know if there was a "god" but there were alien beings who looked kinda like angels and took a few humans away when Earth was about to be destroyed, mimicing the myth of the biblical story of Noah's ark. In all of these cases, notice how we are the ants while "God" is the human boy looking at us through a magnifying glass. Except there might be a real-world scenario where that's somehow less untrue - e.g. the infamously militantly atheistic show Stargate, where "God" was a society of higher-dimensional beings who parasitically like leeches predated upon the thoughts & prayers of their followers. Or like in Babylon Five, the Vorlons were like older kids in the playground, attempting to influence human society so that they could be used to fight in their ancient culture wars against "the shadows". Honestly we have no clue what's out there, "above" us, even if only slightly like in the technological sense, waiting to be discovered?
And therefore it's hard to judge, in the absence of knowledge. Though we CAN - and SHOULD - judge those who hypocritically abuse religion, to e.g. diddle little children, and prevent abortions thereby KILLING innocent people. But that's different - that doesn't require any sort of "understanding" of any magic man in the sky, only real people, really here on the real Earth. We can discuss more about "God" if you like, being "evil" or whatever - I kinda love getting deep into that topic, as you can see:-) - but importantly, even crucially: it's irrelevant, when the task at hand is to go after those who don't even believe what their own books say, and ignoring those, hurt people. Just like Jesus, in absolute peak irony:-).