https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/jill-stein-claudia-de-la-cruz-and-cornel-west-urge-voters-to-abandon-harris-over-gaza/ar-AA1p7MXE?ocid=BingNewsVerp
Abandon Harris over Gaza is 2024’s Kanye for president. This narrative is being pushed by the right and the fact that Trump asked Netanyahu to wait for a ceasefire until after the election is proof.
when did Trump tell Netanyahu to wait until after the elections?
https://apnews.com/article/trump-netanyahu-gaza-war-israel-3d7a6b47060fbe51f66d82104ac5e1aa
https://www.reuters.com/world/netanyahu-denies-report-he-spoke-trump-about-gaza-talks-2024-08-15/
the news about their meeting paints the opposite picture of ending this asap
what do third parties standing up for human life have to do with Trump?
Hey Democrats, if your voters have concerns about your record on Gaza, then try to do better on Gaza. That's how this democracy thing is supposed to work.
Accusing your critics of being Trump-supporters is not a winning strategy. I thought you would have learned this by now.
If you want them to do better, they certainly won't under trump.
The third party candidates won't even exist in Congress, or the white house, so they don't matter.
already do exist and are among us
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_and_independent_members_of_the_United_States_Congress
four are in office right now
Oh, they have been very critical of Trump as well. Maybe that doesn't show up so much in this article, but they definitely do NOT like Trump.
Even tho this community would like you to believe they are all trying to get Trump elected. lol
"The Democratic Party has not only been complicit, but it has been an investor, a collaborator, in genocide and in the slaughter and displacement of thousands of Palestinians – not only in the last 10 months, but in the last 76 years," the Party for Socialism and Liberation's Claudia De la Cruz told reporters on Monday.
"We need to sit and hold that truth as people in the belly of empire, and we must understand our historic responsibility to do something for the sake of humanity."
The news conference, organized by the Abandon Harris (formerly [Abandon Biden])campaign, took place as Democratic delegates and leaders come together to celebrate the nomination of Vice President Kamala Harris and her running mate, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz.
*emphasis mine
Oh yes. That’s quite clear.
Did I say there was a lie?
Is there a an "abandon Trump campaign", though? I'm not insinuating that Biden isn't gargling Netanyahu's balls. I'm insinuating that Stein is a willing spoiler candidate.
You know, Democrats should try appealing to anti-war voters instead of accusing them of having hidden agendas.
I think Democrats forget this, but the Democrats need the votes of independent voters to win. Appeal to them. Don’t insult them.
I remember when Hillary accused Tulsi Gabbard (who built her brand on being anti-war) of being a Russian agent. How well did that go for Hillary?
Even if Gabbard was a Russian agent, it does not inspire anti-war voters when you say that the only anti-war candidates are foreign agents. (I’d be like “well I guess I’m voting for the Russian then”.)
Did… you just reply to yourself?
As for stein….
She wants to provide no support for Ukraine, and for the US to leave nato. Which are the two things Putin wants the US to do. If she’s not willingly a Russian agent, she’s still very pro-Russia.
I mean, here’s her own words given after the 2014 Crimea invasion:
We should encourage Ukraine to be neutral--we helped foment a coup against a democratically-elected government, resulting in a government where ultra-nationalists and ex-Nazis came to power.
First off, while Obama definitely offered verbal support to the people of Ukraine, we certainly didn’t incite the euromaidan revolution (which was sparked by Yanukovych ignoring parliament and moving closer to Russia instead of Europe- like the people wanted.) no, the five billion we spent in aid wasn’t to incite euromaidan- it was development assistance for ex-soviet states, spent over 20 years and mostly approved before Obama was ever president.
Which brings us to how she’s practically reading off Russian propaganda. Remember how Putin’s “special military action” was to “eliminate nazis”? They’ve been using that one for a long time.
If she’s not willingly a Russian agent, she’s still very pro-Russia.
If the only anti-genocide candidate in this election is a Russian agent, then I guess I’m voting for the Russian.
I think Democrats forget this, but the Democrats need the votes of independent voters to win.
Of course, people in this sub don’t believe that independent voters exist. You’re either “vote blue no matter who”, or you’re a Russian agent.
Of course, people in this sub don’t believe that independent voters exist. You’re either “vote blue no matter who”, or you’re a Russian agent.
Preach!
Because the Biden administration is the one committing genocide in Gaza. Not the Trump administration.
Is that too hard for you to understand?
Is that too hard for you to understand?
If you're going to be a condescending, the least you could do is actually be accurate.
Because the Biden administration is the one committing genocide in Gaza. Not the Trump administration.
Neither Biden, his administration, nor American troops in general are actively engaged in combat operations in Gaza. Sure, we're supplying arms, and yes, we can be critical of biden.
By all means. I certainly am and have been.
However, Harris doesn't set his administration's policy agenda. that's why it's the "Biden Administration" and not "the Harris Administration", right?
Further, is it really that hard to grasp that in our stupid electoral system the choice is between either Trump or Harris, and that there are no circumstances at all in which Trump would be more beneficial to Palestinians?
Further, is it really that hard to grasp that in our stupid electoral system the choice is between either Trump or Harris
Voting third-party is also a choice.
Pretty stupid reason to drop Harris when the other team would be far worse on that one issue.
Unless, of course, the real motivation is as a spoiler candidate.
So is there an “Abandon Trump” campaign? Because trump is universally worse on Gaza.
Unless, of course, the real motivation is as a spoiler candidate.
You're honestly just driving me away from Harris.
A choice that helps elect a side you're least aligned with.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, you agree with Harris 90% of the time, and you agree with Trump, I dunno, 4% of the time (hey, he's right on not taxing tips, right?)
But your 10% disagreement causes you to vote 3rd party.
That 3rd party has 0 chance of winning. Source: No 3rd party has won ANY state since 1968, and even then, they didn't win enough to sway the election.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_United_States_presidential_election
So you've removed a vote from a viable candidate, whom you agree with 90% of the time, and given it to a non-viable candidate. Had they not been an option, your vote would have supported the candidate most in line with you.
I’m sure they do
“Hey Cornel West what should happen to the people of Ukraine and Taiwan?”
“Irrelevant”
“Hey Cornel West what do you think will be the outcome for the Palestinians of people refusing to vote for Harris in this election?”
“Did I stutter? Besides if any are still alive in 2036 when we’ve built enough momentum to be competitive (*) and we win, then I’m sure they’ll be super grateful about how much better my policies are at that point”
(*) not really
You're not missing much
If his message was "we desperately need a voting system that enables third parties to be viable, also we desperately need more humanity in our treatment of Palestinians right now because they are dying in large numbers, let's work towards both of those interrelated things" then it'd be gold. He is silent on the first one, though, and actively trying to undermine the second through his actions.
The fact that he's performatively trying to advertise how nice the second one would be won't help the Palestinians if Trump comes to power and doubles the weapons shipments and joins with Netanyahu in his attempts to undermine any humanitarian aid and any peace process. Lobbying the Democrats, threatening the Democrats, demanding concessions from the Democrats, all of those things are likely to help Palestinians to some degree. Voting for Cornel West in the 2024 election is a vote for turning Gaza into a massive graveyard.
the third parties are pointing out how the two parties have the citizens and the world trapped in a MegaCorpo Nightmare and how we have to break free to save ourselves
think what you are projecting is called Stockholm Syndrome
West is actually a pretty brilliant social scientist. He did a great "Philosopher's Commentary" track for the Matrix. Not even kidding, and had a bit role in the sequels.
I love him like a brother, but he has no business running for President.
I watched one of his speeches. Is there one that’s more impactful that I should be watching instead of the one I picked, to get a little of the flavor of what he stands for?
The one that impressed me most was the Matrix commentary from 2004.
AFAIK it was only released on "The Ultimate Matrix Collection".
What were a couple of the conclusions he drew that really impressed you? I listened to some of it.
Because electing Trump would be soooo much better for Gaza...
“I guess it makes them look tough. But to me, it doesn’t make them look tough. They’re losing the PR war. They’re losing it big. But they’ve got to finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.”
Claudia De La Cruz and Cornell West aren't on the ballot in enough states to win a ham sandwich.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballot_access_in_the_2024_United_States_presidential_election
Stein technically is on the ballot in enough states to win, but she represents a party that continually hovers around 1% or less. The best the Greens have done was under Ralph Nader 24 years ago and is largely blamed for 8 years of George W. Bush.
Only 2 parties are on the ballot in all states, Democratic and Republican. The winner of the election will be from one of those two parties.
You help Harris win or you get a President who thinks Israel needs to wipe out Gaza faster.
So are you picking Harris not because she will not do the same things but because she would do the same things but in a slower fashion and also just to show that we have no other options?
not sure that would classify as a democracy are you trying to enforce the elite’s false dichotomy?
I'm picking Harris because Trump would accelerate the genocide and bring the worst Israeli policies here.
Israel illegally invaded Lebanon to set up a "security zone":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_Southern_Lebanon
Trump would do the same for Mexico:
No, they won't. Because there's not going to be any genocide in Michigan. You're delusional.
You're fearmongering about a hypothetical genocide in order to distract from a very real, very current genocide, and that is contemptible.
The term "genocide" was invented by survivors of the Holocaust to be a klaxon call. The idea was that this crime needed a unique, distinct name so that when people heard it, they'd know to drop everything and intervene.
It wasn't invented to be used in political propaganda. When you abuse the term, you undermine its usefulness. You undermine its purpose.
Damn, you are brave for saying that in THIS community!
But hey, I respect and support your right to vote for whoever you want to.
And good on ya for having the balls to say it to this crowd.
They wanna string me up, and all because I vote third party. I can only imagine what your DM's will be like after admiting your voting for trump! lol
Oh, you’re voting for trump too lol
No I'm not. I'm actually voting for Jill Stein. But thanks for assuming an entirely wrong thing just because you're mad!
Nah, I did just post a libertarian article. And libertarians in effect would take votes AWAY from trump. https://lemmy.world/post/18907042
That doesn't really fit the narrative that a lot of Lemmys seem to want for me though. lol
And libertarians in effect would take votes AWAY from trump
Oh so you do believe in spoiler candidates? What's your defense for constant third party and green party advocacy if you know it's a statistical fact that spoiler effect exists?
"You've had two beers, I'm getting a ride home with tequila Tim."
"He just puked on himself and rinsed his mouth with three more shots!"
"Whatever. I might die and we might kill some randoms on the way home buy maybe you'll learn your lesson for next time!"
[but] maybe you'll learn your lesson for next time!
Or you could realize that those two drivers are not your only options. Get a cab, walk to a bus stop, or find a different driver.
It’s not about teaching Tim a lesson. It’s about getting yourself home safely.
Voting isn't just about winning. It's about telling the powers-that-be what you want.
You know how people describe the free market as "voting with your dollar"? Voting is like voting with your dollar. Except it's voting with your vote.
Honestly, I think American democracy is already almost dead. America is a corporatocracy. The politicians think their job is to please the corporations, and the corporations will squeeze the life out of America as far as possible. Our communities are dead. People are broke and miserable. Families are falling apart. We're turning against each other. The Democrats aren't going to fix this. The Democrats helped create this.
The Democrats have to give us a reason to vote for them. They should be working to earn our vote rather than working to serve the corporations. "Vote blue no matter who" gives the Democrats no incentive to be better.
Do you think that people should ONLY vote for a party that is going to win? That's not very democratic.
I'm voting third party. And proud of it.
I mean, if you want things to get better, yes.
Voting a third party is fine as long as you understand you are enabling trump and are making things worse for Palestineans and the millions who will suffer from worse climate change outcomes etc.
If that's something to feel proud about, that's, well, up to you.
I mean, if you want things to get better, yes.
Like I said, that's not very democratic. And I'm very glad that not everyone believes that.
Voting a third party is fine as long as you understand you are enabling trump
Nope. If I wanted to vote for Trump, I'd vote for Trump. Like almost half of the country is doing.
If that’s something to feel proud about, that’s, well, up to you.
Very proud to vote third party! Thank you!
Voting a third party is fine as long as you understand you are enabling trump
Nope. If I wanted to vote for Trump, I’d vote for Trump. Like almost half of the country is doing.
Pretending your choices don't have consequences is childish and not a position worthy of respect.
If you see a toddler running into traffic and you don't stop them, sure you didn't make it happen but you are still responsible. Similarly, if you understand the pain that trump will cause and you don't help stop it, that's on you.
It's your choice but be adult enough to admit the consequences of your choice.
Pretending your choices don’t have consequences is childish and not a position worthy of respect.
Pretending that just because one doesn't vote for democrats, MUST be enabling Trump, is childish and not a position worthy of respect.
Voting for a candidate that aligns with my values is a responsible and thoughtful choice, not a refusal to acknowledge consequences.
Supporting third-party candidates challenges the status quo and pushes for the real change that major parties often ignore.
Blaming voters for the actions of others oversimplifies the complexity of our political system and ignores the importance of advocating for what we truly believe in.
It’s your choice but be adult enough to admit the consequences of your choice.
Yes, it IS my choice, and I explained why I am doing it, and I'm proud of it. Nothing you have said has changed my mind at all. I vote for Green Party and Socialist causes/issues. And I will continue so. Regardless of how many try to bully me or try to sway my vote.
Nobody puts a bar 100 miles from anywhere. People don't drive an hour and a half to go to bar.
I bet there are more third-party candidates in America than bars that are 100 miles from anything.
Probably true. What's your point? The hypothetical situation is anything but realistic. It's a conversational vehicle to expose a forced choice dynamic, and to a lesser extent harm-reduction.
Do you think we're in the bar right now?
I love that you have to make up impossible scenarios to justify why you won't vote third party.
buzzed driving is still driving intoxicated and drunk driving is also drunk driving
so you are for drunk driving and for Harris but third parties are where you draw the line?
I am for what would actually help.
In the case of Palestine, a vote for a third party helps those who would make things worse for innocent Palestineans.
pardon correct what said
so you are for any party that has the best sales pitch, genocide, and drunk driving but draw on the line on third parties who are in the streets right now protesting for a better world / human life+dignity and saying that they might have a solution at least one we have not considered or tried while your party throws an expensive gala with celebs?
how does throwing a gala to celebrate the democrats help anyone
we have third parties fighting for me and you while actively protesting said gala out in the street so you and your fellow earthlings can have a better tomorrow yes they went that far
The "gala" is about electing democrats, the party which is much more sympathetic to Palestineans than the alternative.
Getting democrats elected is much more likely to help Palestineans. Making it harder to elect the democrats is much more likely to harm Palestineans.
This, unlike the Middle East, isn't particularly complicated.
During President Biden’s speech on the first night of the DNC, protesters briefly unfurled a banner that read “Stop Arming Israel,” before it was wrested away by convention staff. We speak to three members of the group Delegates Against Genocide who organized and carried out the action: Esam Boraey, a human rights activist and delegate from Connecticut; Florida DNC member Nadia Ahmad; and progressive Jewish activist Liano Sharon, an elected delegate from Michigan. “We were there specifically to confront President Joe Biden,” says Ahmad, explaining why the protesters chose to disrupt Biden’s speech. “He’s the one who can stop this genocide by picking up the phone and making a phone call, and he has chosen not to do that.”
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/8/20/dnc_biden_speech_palestine_protest
The DNC is responsible for articulating and promoting the Democratic platform and coordinating party organizational activity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_National_Committee
Israel and Palestine Further information: American Jews in politics, Arab lobby in the United States, and Israel lobby in the United States The 2012 Democratic Party platform endorses maintaining commitment to Israel's security, claiming a strong and secure Israel is vital because of strategic interests and common values, the Obama administration providing nearly $10 billion to Israel in the past three years, military support for Israel, such as the Iron Dome system, the Egypt–Israel peace treaty, the Israel–Jordan peace treaty, and recognizing Jerusalem as and remains the capital of Israel, and opposes any attempt to delegitimize Israel on the world stage.[15][additional citation(s) needed] The platform also states that Democratic Party seeks peace between Israelis and Palestinians, and supports a two-state solution, under conditions that Israel's security concerns are met and any Palestinian partner must recognize Israel's right to exist, reject violence, and adhere to existing agreements.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_the_Democratic_Party_(United_States)
No one is supporting drunk driving.
In the silly hypothetical, you MUST leave the bar in a car. There are only 2.
You have to pick. It's not realistic because in real life you could get an Uber or walk.
I'm with 2 beers over tim.
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De la Cruz said Democrats will face consequences if they continue to ignore widespread calls for justice and peace.
your vote should represent you as a person
is keeping your fellow citizens down like crabs do after being caught and are in the bucket along with genocide what you represent or is it justice and peace?
think their message was quite plain and directed at the right people the political leaders who represent us the people and who are constantly failing even with their own promises laid out in their platform which is moving to the right with other issues as well like the southern border
was directed in that sense to the Republicans too who the Democrats are acting like and that we need new parties to fix this mess
that was the message
your vote should represent you as a person
My vote shouldn't actively work to increase Palestinian suffering. Crazy thought.
Democrats are a formal fallacy because they are unsound due to their structure and the Republicans are an informal fallacy due to their content making them unsound.
Definition
A false dilemma is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available.[1][2][3] In its most simple form, called the fallacy of bifurcation, all but two alternatives are excluded. A fallacy is an argument, i.e. a series of premises together with a conclusion, that is unsound, i.e. not both valid and true. Fallacies are usually divided into formal and informal fallacies. Formal fallacies are unsound because of their structure, while informal fallacies are unsound because of their content.[3][4][1][5] The problematic content in the case of the false dilemma has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives.[1] Sometimes a distinction is made between a false dilemma and a false dichotomy. On this view, the term “false dichotomy” refers to the false disjunctive claim while the term “false dilemma” refers not just to this claim but to the argument based on this claim.[1]
What's false about the situation? Do you realistically believe a third party candidate will win, or even be competitive? If so, on what evidence?
Else the options are NOT erroneously limited.
You'd have to go back to 1850 I think to find a non R or D president, and there's zero consistent comparison between the elections of today and back then.
living in country with citizens who already think they have lost their options no do not think third parties will have any chance until the people finally wake up
Waking up happens by building viable candidates with down ballot support, not trying to shoehorn a fantasy third in an election year.
but with the Republicans and Democrats doing everything they can to snuff out third parties we may never be a truly free country
only free to think what is advertised to us via propaganda and galas Democrat/Republican conventions keep forgetting the lingo
Ok sounds like you're resigned to it.
I'm all for building new candidates and platforms and "platforming" their ideas. But if that platform is used to try to kneecap the current "best" of our establishment leaders (bad as they are), then it's all junk.
By attacking your nearest neighbor (not so near, but nearest) all you've done is strengthened the much more chaotic, much more hateful other option.
Build consensus, then shift the window.
Edit look at how Bernie Sanders, AOC, or ilhan omar do business. They are generally aligned with the democratic party, but are pushing to the left. Great stuff, we need way, way more of them.
People always have some knee-jerk reaction to Third parties doing what they should here. If Harris is serious then give those voting blocks reason to support you. "But Trump" isn't the conversation.
The argument centers on how the third party critique is always surrounding democrats, and never republicans. Democrats deserve their blame, but voting third party means empowering republicans, who will amplify the very concepts third party candidates often decry. So much so that it starts to smell of a ruse, cause who could be that short sighted?
The concept of staying home or voting third party means democrats lose seats all down the roster.
I'm voting for harm reduction, not a feel good soap box opinion. I don't feel good about any of this shit, I just want less dead people and less corruption over the coming years than it would be with Republicans in power.
There is no such thing as harm reduction. Harm is only relocated. If you don't vote to actually change direction, it is just kicking the can down the road. I think it is good to have pressure from parties outside of Dems. There are tons of people not voting at all that out number any 3rd party voting block. Shift focus to them.