As a former infantryman I have great difficulty watching these drone videos.
Don't at me about the rights and wrongs of the wider conflict, and I agree that the Russians shouldn't be there. But don't forget, these cheap grunt killers will be coming at your servicemen in future conflicts.
The final image you will see of a loved and respected brother or sister will be a panicked, screaming US soldier trying to outrun an explosive toy. No doubt about it.
Yeah, for me seeing the drone chase the people around was peek comedy... until it hits and I was forced to see the aftermath and pain and recognizing that these men, despite everything else, are human. Even the ones fighting "by choice" are still making that choice through a lense of propaganda. They think they're doing the right thing.
War is fucking horrible. If it could effect the people benefiting from it like it effects these soldiers the world would be a better place.
You know what makes it even sadder? While propaganda does play a huge part of it, from all that we can gather information-wise, a vast majority is motivated by abject poverty and lack of perspectives in life instead of jingoist enthusiasm.
They have been beaten down and dehumanised by the system first, given a bleak and cynical outlook on life and themselves - and then basically been offered money for suicidal operations, most likely benefitting their relatives unless they manage to "win the lottery" and come back home alive.
There's a very real risk this will become the future of recruitment in Western nations as well, so we really should not turn off our empathy, even though I will never understand how they can charge forward into pants-shitting terror like this, instead of either surrendering or downright fragging their commanders in open mutiny.
The US military is not likely to resort to meat wave attacks as a staple tactic.
While US infantrymen facing down suicide drones one on one is likely to happen to a limited extent, the Russian habit of sending thousands of waves of lightly armed men across no man's land with no cover to advance a few meters makes this kind of scene into a trope for the Russians.
Don't imagine that this won't happen to the US regardless how they choose to fight. It doesn't matter. You can just take out key personal, like officers, or specialis? It doesn't have to be human wave attacks. Anyway, I haven't seen too many human wave attacks in the videos. Just individual poor conscripts forced into the service getting their balls blown of by some gamer safe behind the lines.
Don't get me wrong - fuck Russia. But this is wrong.
Wrong doesn't exist on that level in war. There are a few big rules, like don't shoot the civilians on purpose. Other than those, anything goes. You figured out how to turn their base into a microwave? Go for it. Instant 40 foot deep mud traps that swallow tanks with no warning? Completely legitimate.
Those are extreme science fiction examples but I hope they illustrate just how much nobody in a war cares about a sense of honor.
If rules don't matter, then why have any rules? Just everyone kill everyone, military, civilian, women and children?
Or, stop giving sermons about how bad the other guy is when each side chases down a terrified conscript with a explosive toy.
Or, at the very least, perhaps not film the results like some kind of sick snuff film? I question the morality and humanity of anybody who enjoy that shit.
You realize fpvs only have a few km range right? This isn't some predator drone operator clapping cheeks from California, they're in this shit too.
What should they do instead? Risk going closer to Russian lines to try to take them captive? Let them stumble into Ukrainian infantry and get shot? Let them return to their own lines to get sent out again? They may not be an effective fighting force, but they are still a problem.
I'm an Australian.
In the first world war the Australian's had an iron clad rule, one well known to the Germans. If Australians managed to reach the enemy's trenches in an assault, they refused to accept a machine gunner's surrender.
You don't get to shoot down your opponents from relative safety and then expect mercy at the very end. Machine Gunners were an elite force of the German Army. They wore special patches denoting their status. That is, the gunner's not facing the Australian lines. Those machine gunners tended not to wear their status on their uniform. They tended not to survive capture if they did.
There was an element of hypocrisy in all this too. The Australians also had machine gun battalions. But the difference was that we accepted the rules. Perhaps if drone operators started getting shot out of hand on capture it wouldn't be so bad? Seems reasonable to me.
Ukrainian captives are tortured killed and starved regardless so I don't think your point stands. You talk about rules like Russia isn't treating the geneva convention articles like a checklist. Not to mention Russia has no right to be there in the first place. It's hard to feel bad for them when they've already raped, looted, and destroyed their way across Eastern Ukraine to even get where they are now.
Now on a human level, I do feel bad for those that are forced to the front against their will. But if you stack every one of them up against Ukrainian solders, civilians, and their very sovereignty, I'm gonna have to pick Ukraine every time.
Sounds like a justification for murder.
"We're bad, they're worse".
I'm not arguing about the Ukrainians defending themselves, but the methods on both sides are pretty shitty.
If you are intent on drone murder, own it without pleading. Doesn't matter which side you're on.
pretty shit? fuck off, you want each innocent ukranian to go to a war that they didn't start and die just because drones are "pretty shit"? the soldiers that didn't surrender deserved it
I don’t disagree with your argument, but I am curious. Where does your difficulty with the video primarily reside at?
I can’t imagine the trauma of surviving an attack from one of these. The fear that something might fly in at any moment to chase you around to kill you would be more terrifying than being shot at. Maybe you could defend against it with a shotgun, but if the lower cost meant an adversary can send multiple at each soldier, then it becomes a game of numbers where the soldier is likely to be overwhelmed. Not a future I’d want to witness.
Thank you for your thoughtful question.
My response was probably very emotional in that I took the infantry role very personally. There is a million ways for a grunt to get taken out in battle. However, mostly each combatant takes a measure of risk - including pilots and artillerymen. In the case of drone operators you could be blown up by some cunt sitting in his pajamas taking no personal risk in the fight.
Don't bother arguing that this also can happen in a score of different scenarios - I get it. This is an emotional reaction, but feel the same as for IEDs. Australia banned the use of landmines under the Ottawa Treaty for this reason in 1999.
I don't expect much support for this view, and that's cool. It just seems cowardly.
some cunt sitting in his pajamas taking no personal risk in the fight.
If it's helpful the FPV pilots are nearby and are a priority target for each side.
These are essentially loitering munitions---a mass-produced version of the switchblade. I personally think that the next phase is that people will develop really good weapons for knocking them out of the sky, either by shooting them down (maybe the combat shotgun makes a comeback?) or ECM or both. Hopefully Ukraine is ahead of Russia on this.
Extraordinarily well written response to a question many might consider impertinent, even though the question itself was well stated. Thanks for that.
Thanks man. Many will consider me naive, and perhaps I am?
I just get no joy in seeing these vids even if the Russians put themselves in harm's way. Some didn't, but we're forced at the point of a gun. Shitty way to go in either case.
Peace out.
Was it rude? I was genuinely curious as I could see a myriad of valid reasons why the introduction or use of these drones are worrisome. I myself am torn over certain aspects of their use and design that drives me to wonder whether or not they may inflict unnecessary suffering. I cannot argue against their efficiency (nor their need), and I believe that Ukraine has every right to defend itself and repel Russia as an invading force, but they brought up a valid point about what the future could hold in using this technology for warfare. I just wanted to understand them, personally, and the reservations that drove their stance on it.
Honestly your reaction and response are completely understandable from where I stand.
Honestly I don't get you. You are mad at "pajama-clad cunt" who is very much still in danger, but more importantly, is only defending his country and loved ones, instead of the real cunts in Kremlin who are responsible for it all.
I couldn't be clearer in what I said. If you don't understand my point of view I suggest that you reread my statements.
On the other hand, if you don't agree with me, then that's fine as well.
The final image you will see of a loved and respected brother or sister
There are already such videos. Remember the clips from Bagdad that Assange published with the men killed from a helicopter circling high up in the sky? The parents and partners and children of these men have seen "those final images".
I'm not trolling you, I'm as anti-ruzzki as one can get, see my history here on Lemmy. I'm just saying you don't need to wait for those pics. They already are here.
I know these vids exist. Not sure what I'm expected to say?
I'm pissing in the wind, but I think that anybody promoting such films is a fucking loser. I don't really care what uniform the victim is wearing.
Yeah. I can watch the videos without flinching too much, yet I think they should not be shared.
The final image you will see of a loved and respected brother or sister will be a panicked, screaming US soldier trying to outrun an explosive toy. No doubt about it.
I'd assume -- expect -- that the US is gonna have pretty solid counter-low-end-UAS hardware down the line, but yeah, broader picture, there's gonna be some kind of weapon that'll kill people in use, and nothing's gonna afford invincibility.
Probably somewhere in the conflict you've got someone using stuff like punji sticks. Might not be the state of the art, but still can kill.
Yes, they will probably have some defences. They have some defences for IEDs now, but people still get blown up.
Could've spent the day picking flowers to give to babushka, gone home and fallen asleep in bed.
Instead they die tired and grow flowers to comfort the family that outlived them.
Get the fuck back into your own country. Take the pieces of your brother's with you. Give them to Putin.
No mercy, as it should be. Is it horrible? Sure. But these Russian terrorists are fighting in the name of a brutal dictator that orders hospitals to be bombed, civilian to be tortured, raped and executed. Every dead katsap is one less chance for Putin to achieve his goal of subjugating and commiting genocide on the Ukrainian people. Better a thousand Russian invaders dead in the most awful way than even one Ukrainian.