https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/01/angela-carini-abandons-fight-after-46-seconds-against-imane-khelif
Algerian Imane Khelif moved past Angela Carini when the Italian abandoned their 66kg fight after 46 seconds in the first round on Thursday
Khelif was assigned female at birth, has lived her entire life as a woman, has a passport that lists her as a woman from a country that has no trans rights.
If this had happened in the 1904 St Louis Olympics, when women's boxing was first an Olympic sport, nobody would have batted an eyelid. This is just right wing moral panic.
Was she born intersex before being assigned female? I’m sorry but I haven’t followed all the details of the gender test and how she failed it. Do you know?
I guess I'm not a creep enough to inquire about her private parts when she was a newborn.
I love everyone citing the International Boxing Association (IBA), "they tested for XY chromosomes." They did a testosterone test and the IBA President concluded she had XY due to elevated testosterone.
Caster Semenya went through the same stuff but was a woman. Her case is very different but the same. A woman that has elevated testosterone but a medical condition that gives her XY chromosomes.
Instead people should be asking who Umar Kremlev. A Russian that lost his last election but decided "nope, that doesn't count" and still holds office. Damn, who does that sound like? Yes, he has ties to the Kremlin. Can, someone remind me on their stance with alternative lifestyles?
Elevated testosterone in females is not uncommon. Just like everything else, it is complicated.
Obviously, these duel competitions should only be allowed between identical twins. Anything less is unfair and should be halted and shut down.
The article says Khelif was tested last year and returned XY chromosomes (male) not XX chromosomes (female)
Does she? First we don't know the indicator that failed the test. If it is an xy chromosome or higher testosterone. For all we know could be a bad test sample. What we do know is she is a woman. How hard would it be to just pay off an official/tester if your competitors are better than you.Secondly this lady has lost to many women with no question they are women. She isn't superior she may have advantageous genes and if we want to put a limit on that well we she should examine if Michael Phelps is to advantageous in his genes.
Yeah, the boxer in question has XY chromosomes. Did you read the article? It's in there.
I read up more on this and my original comment was wrong.
One corrupt Russian official said this but did not give proof or point to the test. They let her compete all the way to the end of a competition let her win then claimed she has xy chromosome.
I literally quoted you the source on the Wikipedia quite literally the same one dude who claimed it from IBA. Wikipedia said media claimed this and the IBA corrupt governing body dude claimed it we are circling back to a singular one sourced claimed with out exceptional proof.
This Olympic event every individual agreed that all the individuals were fine including this woman until she got punched in the face. The IOC and Paris boxing unit said she was a woman and clear to participate(they test testosterone since that is a know steriod).
No, she doesn't. Some random sexist schmuck claimed she did and idiots like you gobble it up without question. Grow a brain.
Hey.
Rude.
Yeah, after reading more on the subject you are correct. Next time just post sources.
Find your own fucking sources. I'm not your fucking professor. You're the one spouting misinformation about an innocent person. Why don't you provide sources for your bullshit?
Exactly.
The situation has arisen because the world championships last year was run under the auspices of the International Boxing Association, whose president, Umar Kremlev, told the Russian news agency, Tass, that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from the sports events”. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/boxers-who-failed-gender-tests-at-world-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics
"A boxer from Algeria Imane Khelif was excluded from the IBA World Boxing Championships due to the failure to meet the IBA eligibility criteria," the governing body said in a statement. "The IBA upholds its rules and regulations as well as its athletes' personal and medical privacy, the eligibility criteria breach therefore cannot be shared by the IBA." The Algerian Olympic Committee said Khelif was disqualified for "medical reasons" and that it would support her preparation for the African qualification tournament for next year's Paris Olympics. https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/two-disqualified-failing-meet-eligibility-criteria-world-champs-2023-03-26/
In your own article it say she was disqualified after winning gold medal under the rules of having xy chromosomes. Why was she allowed to compete? They don't specifically say she had xy chromosomes. They just decided to apply the rule after she won gold. They need more documentation and clearer rules. It isn't hard to spit in a jar and claim someone is not what they are. Or to have a bad sample or mix up.
There is also medical conditions that cause women to have xy chromosomes still doesn't mean they aren't women. Tons of people have genomic advantages over other people. Again Michael Phelps
Read your article again "Khelif’s thoroughly dominant showing on Thursday will only inflame the debate over whether she and Chinese Tapei’s Lin Yu‑ting should be allowed to compete at the Paris Olympics. Last year, at the World Boxing Championships in New Delhi, Khelif was disqualified hours before her gold-medal bout as a result of International Boxing Association rules that prevent athletes with XY chromosomes from competing in women’s events. The IBA disqualified Yu-Ting before her bronze medal bout for the same reason."
It says they used a rule doesn't say she has xy chromosomes. In your same article the IBA that claimed they were disqualified after they won was also stripped as a governing body of boxing since they have had tons of scandals and corruption
"The International Olympic Committee has since stripped the IBA of its status as the global governing body for boxing because of long-running governance issues and a series of judging scandals. That leaves boxing in Paris under the umbrella of the IOC’s Paris 2024 Boxing unit, which has more relaxed rules than the IBA and has chosen to disregard the results of Khelif’s and Yu-Ting’s gender eligibility tests last year"
You're basically saying guilty until proven innocent here. They say she broke that rule therefore she must have. This isn't a criminal case but having actual proof goes a long way.
No direct source claims A has d. All direct sourced is Person A was disqualified from event B because of rule C saying people with D cannot compete
It seems from what I read that she has this syndrome when a male doesn't develop all male features but female ones. That's why she would have high testosterone and could have other masculine features. Sucks, but absolutely something that should be addressed and already is addressed. Only that it is addressed differently in different leagues.
I think that in case of imame, no competitors issued any complaints before the Olympics even when asked directly, so she should be able to compete.
Maybe we don't know. We don't have good clear transparent and non corrupt testing. We don't even test this on every single woman. IoC said they need clearer standards if they want to kick this woman out.
It's a bad situation. Women's sports have a problem. But right now it's not a big problem. There are not many individuals who are the outliers. Even imane loses fights.
If testosterone is a PED and it doesn't matter if the athlete is cis or not, then there should be a hard limit for both male and female athletes to ensure fairness. If too much testosterone is only a problem for women then clearly it's a sexist attempt to police women's bodies.
Every human body produces some amount of testosterone, either too much is an unfair advantage or it isn't.
Maybe we should just stop taking professional sports so seriously
People will always have genetically advantages, be it height, testosterone, bone density or a myriad of other factors. Trying to control all is impossible, and no matter what limits you set, you'll unfairly exclude some people
No basketball player should be above 5.5 feet tall. There should be a hard limit on height. But only in women's basketball.
They do check testosterone levels for men in every single sport that checks for doping. Abnormal levels is indicative of doping.
I'm suggesting disqualifying women for abnormal testosterone levels without doing the same for men makes no logical sense. Either it's a PED or it isn't and if you're going to limit a naturally occurring hormone of just one sex, then it's not really about the hormone.
But they do, do the same for men. They test men's testosterone. It's part of the anti-doping protocol.
If someone is found with abnormal levels, it can be indicative of doping, and doping by increasing testosterone is quite common. Most people know it by the name of "steroids"
Sports where physical strenght and constitution are more important than technique will always be dominated by people with a better genetic pool.
I'm without any doubt "genetically inferior" when compared to Usain Bolt: even if I started training when I was 3 years old, I couldn't even imagine to get nowhere near his level because nature decided to screw up my knees while he was born a fucking sprinting machine.
Sorry darling, suck it up and take the L or change sport.
That plus the fact that everyone entered this thread with an opinion that is limited to one aspect of the matter, which is fine by the way until you try to derail the conversation towards that specific opinion so that you can pull it out totally out of context like a priest's cock
Let's remember that all the athletes that have records in running where found positive to doping. Then Bolt arrives and beat all their times one after the other but he is not using. I bet in 10 years he comes out as positive as well
Well how did she lose her other olympic and IBB matches if her genetics are always the same then???
I'm not talking about that, my whataboutistic friend, I'm talking about this specific episode that's being used as a media case to rage-bait people.
Then we should set testosterone limits for male competitors too if it's always unfair. Or is it only okay when we police women's bodies?
It's always going to be unfair when the game is going to be "how strong am I?" because it will always boil down to genetics. If your body is more suited than mine to shoot punches you are going to win, regardless of sex, gender, ethnicity or age: basically the Olympics are a "Biggest Pumpkin Competition" but with a better advertising campaign.
So all of this rhetoric of "should we test athletes for testosterone" is fucking dumb on both sides.
Give them fucking chainsaws and let them massacre each other for my entertainment.
Sports where physical strenght and constitution are more important than technique will always be dominated by people with a better genetic pool.
You're literally talking about whole sports in your first sentence, nothing specific about that...
Yeah I'm sorry, sometimes in sake of brevity you skip some premises thinking an average minded person would be able to put it together on their own
I don't know why you're jumping to insults when trying to have a discussion about this, as that's what Lemmy is for surely, discussions??
Why are you making it about solely her genetics saying that she'll win based on these alone? They've been the same when she's lost several matches as I was pointing out...
You're doing her a massive disservice by dismissing the amount of hours, effort, blood, sweat and tears she's likely dedicated to training, and being rude to this "average minded person" for pointing that out.
You do you though
So you are able to understand the specific content of a generic comment!
Good for you pal! Now go and read my first comment once again because I can tell that you still didn't understand the point I was trying to make back then.
I'm just waiting for demands for the 4k vagina video so everyone can judge for themselves whether or not she's a real woman with a real vagina.
She’s not a regular woman, she’s a freak of a woman. Most those athletes are freaks amongst regular people, she’s just not a freak in the same way most of them are.
Michael Phelps is taller than the average pro swimmer, has an unusually long upper body and short lower body, longer arms and bigger feet than a regular person of his size would have, all this giving him more pulling power and less drag in the water. His muscles produce less lactic acid than the average athlete, shortening his recovery time.
Nobody has ever called him a freak. His success is attributed to willpower and skill.
Let me rephrase.
Nobody has ever called him a freak in earnest, and nobody has ever scrutinised him the way they are scrutinising every single woman who dares to be successful while not conforming to an arbitrary and ever-narrowing standard of womanhood.
Holy fuck... do you call people with dwarfism or people with missing arms freaks too? Like they belong in a circus?
Only when they are actually at the circus. Other than that I call them by their proper name, ankle biters.
You make all the jokes you want. Just not ones which disparage people with disabilities, are bigoted, racist, etc.
This isn't a comedy club in the 90s. We don't need your "edgy" humor.
Some people do! It's just the Internet. Chill. You aren't saving humanity by being a mod. You're the equivalent of a hall monitor.
She got her ass handed over to her and turned instantly into a crybaby. No one in that ring was trans. Get over it or don't sign up for boxing
The article says Khelif was tested last year and returned XY chromosomes (male) not XX chromosomes (female)
(IBA) president, Umar Kremlev, saying that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded”.
This incredibly misleading, and I'm guessing since the IBA is currently just a mouth piece for the incredibly homophobic Kremlin.... I'm guessing intentionally so.
Just because you have a xy chromosomes, doesn't mean you're automatically dictated to be sexed as a male. You could very well have a XXY pairing like women with certain types of gonadal dysgenesis, something like Turner's syndrome.
Gender is without a doubt a human construct, but so is the false dichotomy of male/female that most people outside of the medical field view sex.
The intersex population is much larger than most people presume, and the labels in which we use to classify the majority of the population don't really serve a medical purpose for them.
There is no standardization in medicine for Sexual assignment at birth. Sexual assignment in medicine is utilized to categorize treatment needs that are commonly specific to the patient's sex. Intersex patients will require individual assessments, as even patients with the same diagnosis can have wildly different needs.
It does say that, but she probably does have the usual XX.
The IBA based their decision to exclude her on 2 tests one in 22 and one in 23, never officially said which tests they were to protect their participants privacy, and then the president of the IBA just said they were chromosome tests.
If it was a chromosome test, they would have disqualified her in 22, those don't change in a year. Hell, they would have disqualified her in 2023 before she entered the semi finales.
It seems more likely that she was fine in both tests. I say that because the Olympic people aren't fools, if her Chromosomes were a problem, they wouldn't have allowed her to participate.
Now, why don't the Olympics just trust the IBA? High corruption made them remove the IBA's Olympic status. If you then look at who Khelif beat in 2023 before her disqualification, you might then be Russian a conclusion.
from what I've read, the russian IBA tested her for testosterone levels, not chromosomes, and then claimed she had XY without releasing any evidence. Not that it really matters anyways.
As per Wikipedia:
Following Khelif's victory over Italy's Angela Carini during the 2024 Olympic Games, rumours surfaced on social media about her gender. These were fuelled by Khelif's disqualification from the 2023 Women's World Boxing Championships organised by the Russian-led International Boxing Association (IBA) for unspecified reasons. There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone.[2] The International Olympic Committee (IOC) and its Paris Boxing Unit stated Khelif was eligible to compete in the Olympics, and criticized the IBA's previous disqualification.[3]
Boxing in general is stupid as hell. I feel empathy for both parties here.
Edit: I fee really bad for Imane. She is getting dragged by conservative media, and it's absolute bullshit.
I only meant to say I feel empathy that the Italian woman got her ass handed to her and had to give up so quickly. That's it. That's nothing compared to what Imane is going through.
What’s the problem with boxing?
Are you talking about the sport itself, or all the BS that goes on around it?
I'm just not into the violence of it. I'm also a hypocrite who still watches football, so don't mind me.
if you actually read and watched the statements from the IOC you would know that khelif was not disqualified by the IBA for having high testosterone (they never did a testosterone test) and instead decided to disqualify her first and then look for a reason and accused her of having XY chromosomes, which I personally don't believe.
https://youtu.be/https://youtube.com/live/QxeIRI2Qcag?t=1912
https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/world/olympics/boxer-quits-gender-angela-carini-imane-khelif.html
IMO there should be two categories:
Current testosterone levels are not the only part of it that needs to be looked at. We as a species have sexual dimorphism. Sure it isn't to the same effect as some other animals such as many insects, but it is enough to make it unfair for a woman to compete against somebody who went through puberty as a male. Especially in combat sports.
but it is enough to make it unfair for a woman to compete against somebody who went through puberty as a male.
We have no idea if that is true about Khelif.
I swear. More people need to know about Swyer Syndrome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
Khelif may not have even known she had a Y chromosome until that test. She may have just thought she had very "masculine" features for a woman.
It’s irrelevant whether she knew or not. Once it is known, she needs to be moved to a different league/class.
So even though she might have been born with a vagina, one that essentially works like any biologically female vagina, you think she should be forced to fight men because she has a Y chromosome?
Are there any other times where people should be genetically tested and given something different to do if it turns out they have Swyer Syndrome?
Yes. Also, I don’t care about her vagina. That’s not the point. The point is that having a Y chromosome likely means her body has experienced heightened testosterone her whole life, which makes her much more physically capable than a normal woman whose body would not have experienced heightened testosterone levels. That basically means it’s unsafe for her more normal competitors to get in the ring against her, same as it would be to put her up against Hafthor Björnsson.
All Olympic athletes should be genetically tested for these things, so they can compete in the right class/heat/category.
Yes.
Cool. Thanks for letting me know you don't belong here. We do not allow ableist bigotry.
This is clear cut mod abuse. https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&userId=407904
But I recognize you can run your community any way you like, I'm simply going to remove myself from all the communities you moderate.
Why does there need to be a global rule for all sports? Just let all the sports associates decide for themselves, case by case. It's not a big issue and doesn't deserve international news coverage.
Would you reconsider your rule when the champion of every single weight division in your "one with the average testosterone content that most women have, but open to anyone that is eligible" category is a mtf trans person?
I personally don't think it should be controversial to give people born as women some of their own spaces, especially when it simply comes down to a question of fairness.
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Lmao imagine being an uneducated shitty enough person to post this unironically.
Grow a brain.
Yeah I mean putting all athletes with XY chromosomes in a single category and XX in another one, and make a third category for trans and people with that kind of condition.
Maybe she isn't trans but definetly having XY chromosomes and being a women can influence the performance.
Maybe she isn't trans but definetly having XY chromosomes and being a women can influence the performance.
You know what influences competition more? Money. Also she was never tested for XY chromosomes.
You didn't actually read the article did you?
DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded”
I'm going to help your trans phobic ass out.
Last year both fighters were disqualified from the world championships, with the International Boxing Association (IBA) president, Umar Kremlev, saying that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded”. XY is the combination of chromosomes in males, while XX is the combination in females.
But last night the IOC issued a statement that confirmed that said both boxers had “complied” with its entry regulations and “have been competing in international boxing competitions for many years in the women’s category”.
Umar Kremlev has never provided actual information about what test were performed. Instead another trans phobic little bitch claimed they are men due to high testosterone.
IOC spokesman Mark Adams indicated Tuesday no personal information about the boxers' medical histories would be disclosed. "They've been competing in boxing for a very long time," Adams told reporters. “They've achieved all the eligibility requirements in terms of sex and age. We're following the rules in place in Tokyo."
Thursday Adams added that the issues with the previous tests for the boxers "was not a transgender issue, there's been some misreporting on that in press. ... These women have been competing as women for many years.
"What I would say just quickly on testosterone is, the testosterone (test) is not a perfect test. Many women can have testosterone, even what would be called 'male levels' and still be women and still compete as women.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2024/08/01/olympic-gender-testing-boxers/74615354007/
Yeah, she's a woman only because she was born with a vaguna. They raised max admitted testosterone levels and that's how she got in. Even if she took test inhibitors, it takes time fir them to have any actual effect on the body of fucking Olympic level athlete. She has no place in such competitions.
XY Gonadal Dysgenesis is a thing - or is her having high T levels fundamentally unfair? in which case why isn't there a T limit for male athletes as well? while we're at it why isn't there a hight limit? or for that matter why doesn't Phelps have all his medals revoked if he has multiple genetic "unfair" advantages compared to most swimmers? why is genetic variation seen as "unfair" in women but "fair" in men?
(not specifically related to this piece of news, whereby the Algerian contestant has apparently lived all her life as a woman etc etc)
why is genetic variation seen as "unfair" in women but "fair" in men?
There are unquantifiable variations but then there is the variation between men and women. There is a night and day of difference between the two.
in which case why isn't there a T limit for male athletes as well?
Combat sports generally have strictly defined weight categories to flatten out huge swings in testosterone (ie muscle mass + bone density). Throw a chimpanzee into the welterweight category for example and it will fuck shit up all day long, so to me it makes sense to have testosterone categories in women's sports but not in men's because for women the ceiling is much much higher.
There is a reason roided body builders don't compete in natural leagues while we all stand around like programmed momos pretending they are the exact same thing.
