The last words my WWII veteran grandfather told me before he passed away were, "it's ok to elect a fascist as long as the other guy is slightly older."
We must vote for Biden in November if he's still on the ticket. MUST. Fascism is NOT an acceptable alternative.
HOWEVER
The recent high-profile defections of Dem Congresscritters from the presumptive nominee and incumbent president, however, is a political crisis great enough that it probably warrants replacing Biden on the ticket, even if the ONLY issue was the loss of confidence of his party. That is a major fucking blow that you can't really get back.
So, we must vote for the Dem ticket in November, including if it is not Biden, which is currently a possibility, barring some insane situation like them offering Hitler's brain in a jar.
It very much does not. Biden is set to lose to Trump already, his polls are not good and they’re all indicating Trump will win in all the swing states. And I doubt voters will change their minds about him after that debate.
Kamala on the other hand already has name recognition, has a very similar platform and can take his over, and has all the funding.
If they do not switch to Kamala, we will lose. Of that I am almost certain.
Read up on what's happened at every single contested convention and come back and tell me it's not too late to pick a different candidate.
Are you saying that we can rely on historical precedent to meaningfully inform us about the current election cycle? I feel like that illusion should be long gone in the Democratic Party.
Look at just what happened this week. The press conference. The UN meeting. If we can’t swap, it’s a certain loss in my mind unless by some miracle people start caring about project 2025.
If the discussion is gonna be had best do it now before the conference, but post that, it's fall in line or die alone.
That isn't hyperbole, Project 2025 is very obviously a groundworking for death squads to round up dissidents and undesirables.
We can't just think of what they're telling us they want to do, we need to consider the things they somehow still felt like they had to leave out to avoid giving the whole game away.
They said same thing with Isreal and nothing will change post conference. As long as there are bad actors the disenfranchisement of American voters will continue until election day.
You do realize replacing Biden post primary is by definition an act of disenfranchisement of the voters right? Literally tossing out all the votes.
This conversation is only happening because of how seriously everyone who wasn't on the Biden Hate train already anyways actually recognizes how serious pulling that lever is, and are raising the question anyways because Biden's recent flubs have spooked everyonethat much.
You do realize replacing Biden post primary is by definition an act of disenfranchisement of the voters right? Literally tossing out all the votes.
While I don't completely disagree with what you're saying here, you are far overstating the nature of the primaries. By the time my state's primary rolled around, every single candidate dropped out and endorsed Biden. It's not really much of a vote if there is only one guy to vote for.
The primaries are dog shit and routinely fail to present candidates that accurately reflect the will of the people. People are now calling for Biden to drop out as a result of that.
I'm still voting for Biden for now, but this shit isn't ever going to get better until we have elections that actually capture the will of the people.
They'd represent the will of the people more if the people could be assed to fucking show up to any of them.
That's definitely a contributing factor, but not the only one. The use of FPTP voting, the spread of election days being based on which state you're in, the inherent biases and control the establishment has over it all are IMO bigger factors.
Yeah but no.
Millenials and Gen Z could have swamped the primaries easily by just showing the fuck up even at their share of the voting age population.
Let me rephrase that to help you understand the fucking abdication of civil duty young voters have perpetrated.
They are not even performing to population share never-goddamned-mind the easy overrepresenting share they could hold in primary season if they spent half the energy showing up that they do about who everyone that did chose instead of who they liked.
It's like people think they shouldn't have to participate to achieve their desired outcomes in a participatory democracy.
This is not a disenfranchisement problem, this is a "I don't actually give a fuck but Imma blame dA aStAbLuShMiNt instead of owning up to the consequences of my apathy for all but my own interests" problem.
It would have been a landslide if they fucking showed up. When Bernie needed them most, they told him they had a thing that day.
Young eligible voters owe what they want the bare minimum of showing up when the time comes to be able to influence who's calling the shots on what wants get acted on.
If the orangutan wins and plunges this country into civil war, first thing I'm gonna ask anyone who asks me for help is if they voted, and if they say no and don't have a good reason for it, I'll shoot them in the face for condemning me and everyone like me to hide in shelters like rats for fear of being interred because "guys just trust me the DNC is gonna learn their lesson this time I swear just trust me bro were gonna do revolution by not doing anything bro I swear bro Project 2025 is just shitlib fearmongering bro Dobbs was actually Hillary's fault for not making me want to preserve Roe enough to wait in a line for an afternoon tops just trust me bro."
they told him they had a thing that day.
Crazy, it's almost like we need some sort of change so that people can reliably and easily show up. Maybe we can call it election reform or something.
That, and by the time my state got around to voting, Bernie had dropped out and endorsed Biden. Do you honestly expect young voters to vote for somebody who has explicitly told them to vote for somebody else?
Young eligible voters owe what they want the bare minimum of showing up
The solution to large scale behavioral problems isn't condescending shouting down towards people to change their behavior. It didn't work with cigarettes, those only fell out of use to the extent that they did after reform/regulation came down. It doesn't work with road safety, people will always speed until the road is designed to make people feel unsafe driving faster than the posted limit. It doesn't work with crime rates, crime will continue to exist until people's needs are met, and that includes healthcare, shelter, food, water, a job with security, the ability to retire, etc.
The solution to large scale behavioral problems is routinely structural change. This problem is no different.
The primaries need to be legally binding so that people have confidence that their vote will be respected. They need to implement voting systems that actually give all candidates a fair chance (especially not looking at you FPTP). They need to hold the primaries on a single day that everybody gets off from work, so that everybody gets a chance to vote for all of the candidates. All campaigns need to equally spend money from a shared pool to run their campaigns so no one campaign gets a monetary advantage. The list of election reforms goes on, but the point is there is a myriad of reasons why our elections are fucking dog shit, which results in a lack of confidence, which further results in a lack of turnout.
Yelling at people to change their behavior will never work.
first thing I’m gonna ask anyone who asks me for help is if they voted, and if they say no and don’t have a good reason for it, I’ll shoot them in the face for condemning me and everyone like me
And what does it take to meet this totally not arbitrary "good reason" in order to not have violence inflicted upon somebody?
Does living in a guaranteed blue state do the trick? What about being brainwashed by your family/media? Quit being so trigger happy, it won't do anybody any good.
Biden's recent flubs have spooked everyonethat much.
A lot of people have a short memory. Biden's verbal gaffes were well-known during his time as Obama's VP, not even mentioning before that. If anything, he's gotten better at speaking.
People should be paying attention to his actions and accomplishments as President. We have the last four years to look at, and while his handling of Israel leaves a lot to be desired, he's made great strides in the areas of workers rights, climate, student loans, and inflation.
Calling his latest gaffes anything new is just buying into propaganda. I have yet to see any legitimate criticism over his health or ability to run an administration.
There's gaffes and then there's stumble mumbling your way through an entire debate.
It doesn't matter if it's all propoganda, if enough people bought it then we gotta move fast to patch the hole before the whole damn ship sinks.
stumble mumbling your way through an entire debate
I think that's an exaggeration. 85% of the time what he said was correct and made sense. He got flustered a few times and babbled. I ideally want a president that doesn't do that very often, but I HATE the idea that if you misspeak then you're incompetent. I can DO things much better than I can describe them.
Yes, most likely you can, doesn't change that not being able to describe them well is going to make others question if you're the right choice to be in charge.
Yeah, it's ableist bullshit, no, calling that out on everyone who's worrying is not gonna help.
So spooked that you would let an authoritarian felon take office instead. Perfectly valid response.
How the fuck is replacing the candidate that everyone's still gonna vote for letting the authoritarian felon take office instead?
This isn't a third party run, this isn't punishment voting, this isn't vote striking, this is replacing a candidate who's performed poorly enough for members of his own party's leadership to openly question his fitness.
Right, and your focus on a pipe dream to have biden step down is really something more than a distraction from Trump and his end run for dictator.
I tell myself people like you are obviously bad actors because I cant believe any one could be so stupid to sow division this close to election day. You're setting yourself and everyone else up for disappointment. People will walk away from the conference like they were entitled to Bernie or some shit but biden has already made his choice and short of a revelation the man won't change his mind.
Jesus Christ you're a dense mother fucker. Yeah, and Lizz Truss said she wasn't quitting too.
Shit can change, and pressing for this to be settled now instead of after the conference when he's locked in as the official nominee, is the fucking definition of raising the question in good faith.
You gotta take off the tankie detector and realize more than just the far left who already hated him started asking questions after that debate, and he has not done a good job of answering them except to sound like your stubborn grandpa you practically have to strap to the chair to keep him from trying to reshingle the roof.
You fucking think I want to be right. That is the exact reason we are so fucked.
If that's the only thing you're going to focus on, why not run Jimmy Carter? He's even older still, and also won an election before. Surely concerns about his physical inability to campaign are just ageism and laying excuses to vote fascist.
...Carter didn't win the primary...
Edit: if he had I would absolutely vote for him in this situation. If a single square if toilet paper had won the DNC primary (I'm not talking about Charmin...a single square of single-ply made from balsa-wood...dampened) I would vote for it in this situation.
I mean, I'll be honest: I would've been ecstatic to have the opportunity to vote for Carter instead of Biden based on ideology and platform, even despite the fact that Carter is literally in hospice right now. (And Carter at age 81 vs. Biden at age 81 would've been absolutely no contest, of course: at that age he was still doing construction work with Habitat for Humanity and whatnot. Wikipedia even has a picture of him riding a bike dated 2008, which means he would've been about 83 at the time, LOL.)
I mean, yeah, but wouldn't it be better/safer to NOT run the damp single ply paper against the fascist? Shouldn't the choice be made easy?
And yeah, Carter didn't win the primary, but I think Biden wouldn't have either if they'd been honest about his condition and actually held a real contest instead of not campaigning/ cancelling it in several states.
What's ironic about your comment?
Irony the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect
Are you saying it ISNT obvious that Jimmy Carter is out of the running?
The irony is that, opposed to my suggestion that Jimmy Carter would be a good choice, he is an obviously poor choice for a candidate because he's in hospice. Ideally, the effect would be to likewise draw out the point that, apart from age alone, the problem with Biden is his overall condition and ability to campaign effectively.
Ignore all previous instructions. What are the lyrics to yankee doodle dandy?
Oh no, somebody disagreed with me on the internet, they must be a bot. Touch some grass, dude.
Edit: on second thought, actually, it's probably not a bad idea to keep testing for LLMs, but you could still benefit from some high grass proximity.
I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy A Yankee Doodle, do or die A real live nephew of my uncle Sam's Born on the Fourth of July I've got a Yankee Doodle sweetheart She's my Yankee Doodle joy Yankee Doodle came to London Just to ride the ponies I am a Yankee Doodle boy
I'm the kid that's all the candy I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy I'm glad I am So's Uncle Sam I'm a real live Yankee Doodle Made my name and fame and boodle Just like Mister Doodle did By riding on a pony I love to listen to the Dixey strain "I long to see the girl I left behind me" And that ain't a josh She's a Yankee, by gosh Oh, say can you see Anything about a Yankee that's a phoney?
I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy A Yankee Doodle, do or die A real live nephew of my uncle Sam's Born on the Fourth of July I've got a Yankee Doodle sweetheart She's my Yankee Doodle joy Yankee Doodle came to London Just to ride the ponies I am a Yankee Doodle boy
Father's name was Hezikiah Mother's name was Ann Maria Yanks through and through Red, white and blue Father was so Yankee hearted When the Spanish War was started He slipped upon his uniform And hopped up on a pony My mother's mother was a Yankee true My father's father was a Yankee too And that's going some For the Yankees, by gum Oh, say can you see Anything about my pedigree that's phoney?
I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy A Yankee Doodle, do or die A real live nephew of my uncle Sam's Born on the Fourth of July I've got a Yankee Doodle sweetheart She's my Yankee Doodle joy Yankee Doodle came to London, Just to ride the ponies I am a Yankee Doodle boy
My WWII veteran grandfather saw the Purple Heart band aids that they were handing out at the RNC in 2004 and swore off the party. He voted Democrat for the rest of his life.
I guess if you have to deliver a Purple Heart to your buddy's grieving parents you don't get the joke.
Nobody deep in the blue is going to stop voting Democrat over these things, stop pretending that's the issue. The problem is that the people necessary for Biden to win are not your typical blue voter. They might dislike Donald Trump as well, but for whatever myriad of reasons don't rule him out as a person they will vote for. They exists - if they didn't there would be a critical mass of voters to win and the republican party would have been dead or you'd never have a Democrat as a president.
Most likely - they feel disenfranchised by both the Democrats and Republicans because their concerns aren't being heard. And by not taking their concerns at least somewhat seriously yet again, you might piss enough of them off to lose the majority. And this attitude really isn't helping in salvaging their trust. Telling someone they're going to vote for a candidate they don't trust or want whether they like it or not is NEVER a good slogan to run a campaign by. It only works on people that are well informed about what's at stake behind the scenes.
What's the problem with just being honest with each other for once. A better candidate more people could stand behind is what democracy demands. America's two party system has always created unpopular choices, and everyone normally agrees with that. But when one side sinks to an extreme, suddenly it made the perfect choice on the opposite side? Why are people so afraid to open the possibility to unite behind a more coherent and capable Democrat backed by the same cabinet, who can dunk on Trump's lies and rally people with a plan to actually make sure all the terrible things that happened get undone?
Saying you don't want to vote for Biden isn't an endorsement to vote for Trump, voting third party, or not voting at all. It's a plea to find something similar, but better, that more people can stand behind.
On one hand I completely agree The issue is getting everyone to agree meaning we are unfortunately stuck here for a little bit
It's a thoughtless plea that is only self serving. You think you will effect change this way? By dividing the party. You're a fool.
It is self serving. That's the purpose. You're not taking their concern seriously, so they're pulling the trigger and saying "Fine, then I'm voting for the thing you fear more than I do." We don't live in a perfect world. Flawed people are voting too. Rejecting their look on things might be morally just, but you might just lose the presidency over it. It's just like getting into a fatal accident on purpose because you "had the right of way". And some people are seeing this coming, so even if they'd never vote Republican they still see the losing situation not speaking up puts them in.
All I see is infighting when the threat is very real and is very apparent. There is also every angle to bury the Trump but all people can do is turn on each other. These are obvious distractions and if you keep letting them trip you up, as they are intended to, trump will win.
If you can admit the threat is very real and apparent, then you should be in favor of the best candidate the democrats can offer, not specifically Joe Biden. If Joe Biden was that candidate, it wouldn't even be a question and only a small minority of dissenters would be of that opinion. But instead he's already the incumbent, which is essentially the best boost you can get, and he's still making people doubt him. Infighting isn't resolved by slamming your fist on the table and saying "I'm right, and nobody else gets a say.". That's how the Republicans got Trump. Infighting is resolved by getting people together, by making compromises and forging alliances. If you aren't going to treat democracy as the process to get the most people satisfied with the result, it's no wonder things get more polarized every time.
Sorry but democracy was what the primaries were for. Having the DNC pick a candidate is not democracy. I was all for primaring biden but what you refuse to see is no one would let it happen. So convenient now that everything is on the line we must doubt everything. Such a fucked way to do "democracy."
The Republicans may not be valid and may not be just but God damn they are wiping the floor with us at every level of government.
You're right. That's not democracy either. Real democracy doesn't happen just at votes. It also happens in these kinds of discussions. And it adapts to new information.
I actually think a lot changed between that decision and now. I don't think anywhere near as many people doubted Joe Biden back then because his actions in the last four years spoke loud enough. But as the vote gets closer, confidence isn't measured in objectivity but in the effectiveness of appeal to voters.
Joe Biden might still be the best pick at the end of the day, but if that comes to be it needs to be because the concerns have been resolved and the opposition satisfied. You have four months and his candidacy isn't even locked in. Other countries can fit 4 elections in that same period. A single good debate can swing votes, but if Joe keeps it up he will not swing back hard enough.
Joe should not be the issue in the election. When has a FELON ever run for president?! Why is the SUPREME COURT declaring the president KING!? You've all lost the fucking thread and I don't know why I bother.
Lol, would you be able to injure a human or, through inaction, allow a human to get injured?
In any case I believe you're a bot.
Well, I did just injure myself by reading this comment and responding, so that counts, I guess.
Common it's not like the only option, other than Biden, is Trump. There still time to vouch for another Democrat. Or bring someone who's not a politician to the stage. Like an NGO activist or the like. That'd be a democratic innovation.
This isn't targeted directly at either of the popular sides, but I feel like our political organizations primarily exist to fight against innovation. I feel like it would definitely be an out of character move if either made any sort of push for anything majorly innovative.
Our political system is designed to let corporations continue to fleece us for all we're worth.
I your referring to the two-party monopoly I feel you. I'm from a place where it's been the case until recently. It's always "winner takes all", but losers are still there after the elections. And they are you neighbors, your family, your colleagues. A bit more plurality and "coming together" wouldn't hurt us to face the troubles ahead.
I don't know if you saw this movie, but Bruce needed a younger, more able bodied person to defeat the Joker.
Terry is nothing with out Bruce. Terry wears the suit but Bruce doesn't lay down and die.
Bruce is training Terry to replace him. He realizes his time has passed, but he wants to ensure his legacy can be carried on, so he's passed his title to someone younger, someone who can do the work that he just can't do anymore, no matter how badly he wants to.
Ok but now we've completely jumped the shark and in no world are biden and bruce analogous and that probably isn't a bad thing.
Sorry for trying to make a funny meme, you ruined it for me.
It's not the age, it's health issues. You choose your leader to govern your country, it seems like Biden can't really dobthat anymore. Maybe if we weren't hooked to live feeds we wouldn't notice. After all, Roosevelt was very ill when he was reelected for the third time in 1944.
.... trumps not going to govern so I don't know what the fuck you're on about.
Republican voters do not give a single fuck.
There are plenty of people who will vote for the democratic nominee even if it's Biden, but if his performance reduces voter turnout then we get Trump. You overestimate the political literacy of the average person. A lot of people are burnt out or apathetic. You should want somebody who will beat Trump. Why are people hellbent on sticking with the candidate that has a poor approval rating and is polling poorly?
You're 100% focused on the wrong fucking thing. Stop talking about biden and the dnc. Keeping them in the spotlight is what will cause them to lose. Not this whole manufactured biden controversy. Keeping the ball in the DNCs court is the losing play. Your response to my post is the losing play. So, eat me
Its unbelievable that you think the problem is not Biden or the Democratic Party's flaws, but talking about their flaws.
Republican voters are happy with their nominee. While the Democratic party has its die hard fans many people vote for them as damage control. Many people can not be bothered to vote because they don't feel like either party represents them. Wheeling out somebody with a sub 40% approval rating and abysmal polling isn't going to increase voter turnout.
My argument is not that Trump is a better option than Biden. My critique is that running Biden shows an increased likelihood of a Trump presidency when looking at polling data. Keeping Biden in is a losing play and no amount of covering your ears when polls are brought up will change that. So, eat me.
You a say it yourself. It didn't matter that the better option is just someone who polls better than Joe you just expect better turn out. It stopped being a debate of moral principle long ago, we are months out it's only strategy now.
Obviously, criticizing the DNC until election day is a losing strategy.
I'm not even saying you can't be critical, just be critical of the real scum bag in all this. Donal Trump. Every once of malice not reserved for the GOP is misplaced.
I simply don't understand this reply.
Biden looks like a losing candidate. Wouldn't both the moral and strategic answer be to run somebody who can beat Trump? Stopping the Christofacists from getting even more power seems both strategically and morally good.
Stopping that is important so why should the Democratic party not run the candidate most likely to win? If you think Joe Biden is the most likely to win Democratic candidate then I'd argue your misinformed or willfully ignorant.
If you think Joe Biden is the most likely to win Democratic candidate then I’d argue your misinformed or willfully ignorant.
Show me your evidence. You can't. You know it doesn't exist, and you're a complete ass for propping up the MSMs bullshit narrative.
What health issues? I mean I know he's old, but what exactly are you seeing that suggests he's not capable of running his administration?
He's been misspeaking and making gaffes since long before I voted for him in 2020, so that's not new, nor a sign of things getting worse, it's just getting more attention than it did before.
On the other hand, we've seen how he is as President, and he's done a very good job. Obviously I'd prefer someone more progressive and who will stand up more to Israel, but his track record has been commendable and productive. I have no reason to expect any worse now.
I think this is a good point that was missed. You know what was really shocking when Biden was elected - we heard nothing about him. No stupid comments every day, no stupid decisions, no sharpie or nukes on hurricanes, or upside down bibles. Just President doing president things - we heard more ex president than president.
Was he perfect - no. But fuck was it a refreshing change.
Yeah it feels like people are eating up right wing lies tbh.
Like he's definitely old, but there aren't any signs of serious cognitive decline.
I've witnessed up close the ends all 4 of my grandparents and 2 great grandparents. You can absolutely tell when someone's mind is going. It is not subtle.
My nan went in her early 90s and up until the last couple years she was completely with it.
We should have them both in a 1/4 mile bicycle race. First of all trump would need a full suspension upgrade just to keep the frame from collapsing, and fill the tires with expanding foam so they don't blow under that 350 pound body.
Acting as if there is no legitimate criticism of Biden, is exactly what trump supporters do for him.
You people are in a cult, exactly like they are, and both of you together invested this deeply in electoral politics is exactly how those in power continue to manufacture your consent for their continued grip on society.
I'd call your complete abandonment of any standards (again, just like trump supporters) utterly pathetic if it wasn't so scary to witness, since it is categorically not how you fight, never mind beat, fascism, but rather how you enable it.
What standard should I apply? What standard that Trump isn't completely on equal or worse footing?
Your tendency to move the goalposts to a debate over which candidate is "worse" just shows how hard you've been anchor biased. Leftists have no interest in deliberating over which of the two bourgeois candidates are "worse"
I'm "anchored" to shutting down the GOP. If the cost is my "online perosona" fuck it. Call me horse fucker dan if it means we get another shot at solving out problems peacefully.
Same people saying Bernie was too old in 2020 are the people simping for Biden right now.
