Americans surely must understand by now that they're only seen as consumers, statistics, a unit from which money can be extracted. They're not seen and treated as humans.
Americans who lived abroad, what do you think about this?
I haven’t lived abroad but I’m a disabled vet and thus get social healthcare..
And it’s fucking horrifying what my countrymen/women don’t get. I get the European experience (less than, let’s be real.. I was gunna say more or less but it’s less…) and my comrades in arms (and just my comrades?) don’t because of technicalities? My brethren who choose not to support business get screwed? Fuck that we should all benefit.
To be clear, health should be a human right, housing should be a human right, food should be under health as a human right but let’s be serious it should be a separate human right so everyone has to acknowledge it. (thanks America for needing that to be spelled out…)
Somewhere between just 18-25% of veterans get the benefits they're entitled to, and the VA wants to keep it that way.
It's fucking disgusting
Technically I’m not even getting what I’m entitled to, I just recognize I get more than most of my comrades and until they get it I’m not pushing for myself.
Because you are right. It’s horrifying to go to a Va hospital, because the majority of people there are bitching up a storm because they aren’t getting care they should be entitled to. Wildly uncomfortable experience. And I don’t blame them and they deserve it way more than I do.. but technicalities..
Please go after what you're entitled to. I spent nearly a decade getting shortchanged by the system and never once did I begrudge someone else getting their ratings. It's just like back in the service, the only people who want you to not use your benefits are the bean counters.
I am not a veteran but I learned this yesterday when I tried to get a new sling for my broken (but mostly healed) right humerus and found out insurance only pays for a new one every two years and out of pocket a new one at the hospital is $70 whereas a new one from a medical supply store is $20-$25 and what a surprise! The medical supply store doesn’t bill insurance. Fuck this country
One brick and mortar chain I found near me is Binson’s but like the other poster mentioned you might get a better deal on Amazon or online elsewhere too
You can buy a sling from Amazon pretty cheaply. Walmart also carries basic slings for around $20
To be clear, health should be a human right, housing should be a human right, food should be under health as a human right but let’s be serious it should be a separate human right so everyone has to acknowledge it.
You've just summed up article 25 of the universal declaration of human rights. The US is a signatory to it - but it's not legally binding.
That’s why they signed it. It’s not binding so what does it matter?
I mean the US has taught me that being an ancom is the right path. I wish they had any support for what they actually preach being a good thing but I’m not into it. And I once signed my life away thinking it was right.. mistakes were made man.
(In fairness, I come from a conservative area, so I’m not against people, I just want what’s best for everyone, even if they don’t recognize it as a good thing yet.)
To be clear, health should be a human right, housing should be a human right, food should be under health as a human right but let’s be serious it should be a separate human right so everyone has to acknowledge
Around the world 9million is so die every year from starvation (some 25,000 a day, many of them children) another 9 milion or so from air pollution, driving cars and.m burning fossil fuels. 50 kids a week are backed over in cars in the US alone, that's just backed over. Guns are the #1 killer of children , cars #2 in the US
https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-earth/air/air-pollution-deaths-per-year
50 US kids killed by Muslim terrorists, spend a trillion and invade, but good 'ol boys in trucks? make the trucks bigger and have at it... but can't spend a trillion to build good public transport and cycle ways so people.don't need to kill kids in cars.?
I think it's not unreasonable to suggest we don't really give a shit about "human rights"... anywhere in the world.
Professor David Boyd expressed it well when he was tasked by the UN to try and raise awareness about some of this with Governments around the world and as he said, he couldn't get a single eyebrow raised anywhere in the world
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/07/un-expert-human-rights-climate-crisis-economy
Outgoing special rapporteur David Boyd says ‘there’s something wrong with our brains that we can’t understand how grave this is’
I'll never return if America doesn't get healthcare. I don't even like visiting because that's so obvious. I usually don't go out when I go back and just hang out at my parents. Everything is depressing and I can pretend to not see it in their bubble.
America went from chattel slavery to chattel citizenry, we are nothing but a resource to be exploited.
Basically pass something through government channels to wrest the service from the hands of individualized businesses wearing the skins of hospitals and the business complex of health insurance... Like every other nation who has a social system did at some point in the past.
It's kind of easy to forget but like sanitation, fire service, post, police services, hospitals, secular school systems ... Those were all exclusively the domain of for profit businesses once. Just because something currently lines someone's private pockets doesn't mean that makes it untouchable. It has all been done before. Just wiping out the third party insurance companies alone and socializing the insurance would probably do wonders.
That won't work for the federal government. The people have no mechanism to put forth legislation (or to recall elected officials, which I see being a huge problem pretty soon).
That there is no tried and true fix for. The US is an old Democracy with a massive cultural complex around not changing anything a founding father sneezed on. There's some weird exploits in the 9th and 10th Amendments that could potentially cause a massive melt down if a sitting government decided to ever try and use them but it is just theoretical and anti-originalist so it's unlikely.
I look at the US government being in a death spiral as a separate but related problem. If your air conditioning isn't working and your engine is busted, the air conditioner isn't really your first priority.
Continue to support policies (thus Politicians (i.e. Democrats)) that want to give everyone access to healthcare, regardless of economic status. This would mean never voting for Republicans as they are opposed to this.
How has it been 60 years of the same shit and you guys don't pick up on it? What's going on over there?
The last time Democrats controlled the House and Senate for more than a single term was with Jimmy Carter, 1977-1981 [0]. It's hard to make progress when Republicans are willing to shut the government down to prove how bad the government is. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
[0] https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/jun/25/control-house-and-senate-1900/
Lol, you think it's the ruling party that's the problem? That's what I mean, how are you just duck in this loop of thinking.
You change. Stop asking and start doing?
Isn't your whole thing "by the people, for the people"? The people are an overweight zombie staring into a TV slurping an empty soda. Seeing this from the outside is absolutely crazy. You guys are so, so, SO passive.
You're becoming poorer and poorer, your world is quite literally burning and drying up, quality of life has bottomed in a way no one even a generation ago would even imagine.
And what do you do? I mean...
You've offered no real actual actions though. Change... What? To what? Your world is also quite literally burning and drying up. You could share your clearly superior wisdom instead of just dunking on Americans, which is frankly low hanging fruit anyway.
So what do you do?
But enough of us are okay with that as long as those damn immigrants, black, and poor people are treated that way it's fine.
We're not lacking in "system", that's part of what we're overpaying so much for. It's the "care" part that's lacking.
And none of us can afford the really good care, we go broke trying to afford the over worked, beaten down healthcare staff doing the best they can with what little they have.
Remember during the pandemic they were literally wearing trash bags to take care of people?
"For [the 6 measured conditions], the health outcomes of White US citizens living in the 1% and 5% richest counties are better than those of average US citizens but are not consistently better than those of average residents in many other developed countries, suggesting that in the US, even if everyone achieved the health outcomes of White US citizens living in the 1% and 5% richest counties, health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries."
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561
Overall the US spends way more per capita on its healthcare than any other country (both in absolute terms and as a percent of GDP), and yet has the worst healthcare outcomes of any developed nation.
POSIWID. Purpose of a system is what it does.
I’m this case, extract as much money as possible from the population.
Sparing loved ones of financial hardship is one of the noblest reasons to die. What a fucked up sentence.
The horror is in the fact that the system forces these kinds of choices on people. Any system that forces people to consider suicide to avoid bankrupting their loved ones due to medical cost is barbaric.
Friend of mine became extremely sick. Doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong, but his life became pain and insomnia. After many torturous years, he was tired of being bedridden and miserable. He couldn't end it; his wife would lose her health insurance through his employer. So he walked off into the woods.
He's been legally missing for a few years now. He made sure to bring his ID with him, in case he is found one day.
That's the American healthcare system.
Why do we still live here: if we could leave, we would. We've been trying.
I have no idea how this keeps her insured. In most of America, after 1 year of medical leave your job can be terminated.
I truly believe the parent comment is straight up lying lmao, no job is going to keep you employed for more than a few days without an explanation, and insurance benefits end the month the employer terminates you.
I don't remember if it was her insurance or his, or what those details are. She and I have spoken of him, but not of the insurance information. Keeping things vague makes it less internet-friendly, but the story stands, and it sucks.
Yeah, if it was my friend's wife, I wouldn't be digging into those details either. Even if she's completely in lala land about the reasoning, whatever it takes to deal with that pain. Not my place to challenge that.
Ma'am, we looked at the bones and he passed away within a month. We're afraid you'll have to pay for that hip replacement in full, and, here, we kept your cancer boob, well need repayment for chopping it off...and the wisdom tooth.
Mommy, when I grow up, I want to be the guy who figures out when people died to cancel their families insurance postumably!
No one else will have us. Immigration laws are very difficult to navigate for almost every country. We've looked.
As others have said, I just want to +1 that too, immigration laws suck globally.
America may be the capitol of greed, but just about every other country worth moving to has monetary and educational requirements that most of us don't meet. We're locked into this shit hole.
Why would anyone live there?
Migrating to a better place is actually not that easy, unless you have a great education.
What I don't understand is why my neighbors here in the US stress over medical debt when you can simply not pay it. It won't even impact your credit score anymore. Just ignore the debt and move on with your life. I've been doing this for decades.
Most people don't know this is an option. Most people who do know and exercise this as an option will be targeted for harassment by bill collectors for the rest of their life.
You can avoid the debt collectors simply by shredding their letters and ignoring their calls. They can't harass you if you don't pick up the phone for any number you don't recognize. They give up pretty quickly (usually within a couple of months) once they realize that you can't be reached.
It's honestly so simple to avoid paying debt, that I'm honestly surprised that people don't think to just ignore it. You're not going to go to jail for it, so why even worry? Even if it's a non-medical debt, your credit score will bounce back in only 7 years.
You tell your family members to do the same, both when asked about you and for themselves.
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That doesn't sound right. The US is constructed to maximize profits for its oligarchy, there's no 7th yacht in allowing the serfs not to pay off their medical debts?
My wife is afraid of leaving, it's expensive, and immigration laws can make it challenging to move somewhere desirable.
Some friends of mine recently moved to Europe from the US. They are happy with the decision, but it was a huge strain on their family to make the move.
They had to secure jobs, a place to live, and figure out what to do with their pets. On top of that they have to learn a new language, get their kids enrolled in school, and continue to live their lives. It's possible but daunting, and most people can't do it because of family.
Why would anyone live there?
I only speak English & I don't like cold weather, rain, or spiders.
New Zealand doesn't just take anyone. You usually have to have a job offer or a sizeable account at a New Zealand bank to apply for citizenship. They also take applications for citizenship for certain types of skilled workers (types vary based on need) but that's essentially a lottery if you can even qualify for it.
Why would anyone live there?
The international perception of America is far, far stranger than how the USA really is. Like everything. If we were to go by perceptions of other countries alone by media and memes and news reporting, I can point to a LOT of places that would beg the question, "why live there?" but for the majority of people here, it's a peaceful, expansive and free place to live. You just have to fit into the select population that gets those benefits, which can look like different things in different parts of the USA.
This is why the US is still seen as the "shining beacon on the hill" and why US currency is accepted anywhere in the world. The US has massive problems and we have that little issue with being you know... the actual evil empire and all that. But it's still vastly ahead of many places in the world so asking why anyone would live here is as ignorant as if I were to ask why anyone would live in the UK because I read stories about some of the terrible practices and laws there.
It's very hip and cool to say "USA BAD" online, but most people don't really feel that way. That's a deeply internet attitude and a lot of the time you see people living here complaining about it the same way they complain about their job. They hate it, but wouldn't trade it for the alternative.
I've very seriously considered moving in the past few years, but my family and closest friends are here and I don't want to be that far from them.
Why would anyone live there?
Because they have little to no choice.
Because the available alternatives are worse then the US.
Even Go Fund Me came out and said, uh, wait, funding health care isn't what we really intended for the platform.
I recall one of the coaches of a major league baseball team had some major illness and had set up a GoFundMe for it...the team decided to cover it, fortunately, but...come on.
I don't know how anyone can seriously claim there's nothing wrong with our system, but they do.
One guy said, in earnest, that it's a good thing that our medical system is so expensive - because that means it's a good system. (This was in response to me saying that I think our technology and care are pretty good; it's how we pay for it that's the main issue.)
How do you even respond to that? I just ignored him. Does he think Europe has cut-rate health care? Canada?
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Does he think Europe has cut-rate health care? Canada?
Assuming we’re talking about one of my fellow Americans? Yes. He’s been conditioned to think that.
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It’s amazing how the powers that be have gotten our culture to the point that so many people give zero shits about their fellow humans. People living paycheck to paycheck on median incomes still have the “fuck you; got mine” attitude.
The worst part is that many of these people would help you if you needed it - if you were, say, in a car crash, most of these people probably would help you out. But...for some reason...extending that help to a more general sense just causes them to start frothing at the mouth.
I ride bicycles, and when I ride on Sunday mornings, I'm always amused by the thought that some drivers are probably on their way to or from church when they decide to pass me dangerously close, just for fun or to teach me a lesson or whatever the hell their justification is.
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Tribalism I guess. My family, friends, town, country, etc are the good people. The others are bad.
That and bigotry. They’re basically two sides of the same coin though.
At a previous job I had, my coworkers all made less than 50k a year. Still, every single one of them was against raising the minimum wage, because "we make above minimum wage, and if this passes than we won't get a raise." It's definitely some crab bucket mentality.
This was in response to me saying that I think our technology and care are pretty good
The kicker to all this...it's not. Our healthcare is absolute ass compared to the rest of the world. The only thing we're ahead on right now is erection pill and weight loss drugs.
If you end up with cancer or a moderately complex injury, you're fucked. Good luck on that lead time to see a specialist.
It’s like that everywhere. The US is not an outlier. You need quality education systems in place as well or you can’t educate your future medical professionals. This is how democracy dies. Undereducated sickly populace will vote for whoever comes off the top rope with the funniest/angriest shit. We were sunk as soon as education funding cuts began worldwide. Early 90s in my country, probably similar elsewhere.
Does he think Europe has cut-rate health care?
As a Euro-wanker I can assure you we do, that's why no rich person uses it over here–they go to private clinics unless it's grave enough and they are rich enough, then they go to America.
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Yeah the quality of care and health outcomes among rich countries is pretty much the same across the board. Each country has specific areas they're particularly good or bad in, but overall health outcomes are pretty much the same, including the US. We just wildly over pay for healthcare because we've defined our consumer to be individuals, which means they have no bargaining power. Normally this wouldn't be too big of a problem if the industry had heavy price regulation, but we also don't have that. If we switched to M4A, the consumer would become Medicare and bargaining power would go through the roof.
As someone who has lived here my whole life, you ain't missing much. We have some beautiful wilderness and outdoor areas, but that's about the only reason to visit here. There is beautiful wilderness in other places, too, we just have a whole lot of it. There is really no reason to live here, unless you are incredibly rich and want to take advantage of our non existent taxes for billionaires.
I've never heard this before, so that's interesting. Is the public option worse health care in some way?
It’s the same setup as the states, and I’m simplifying quite a bit.
Imagine basic insurance in the US. You’re going to be restricted to hanging out at regular walk-in clinics, regular ER if you need it, long waits to see your primary care doc if you even have one. You’ll be dealing with overworked and understaffed facilities. Your tests get scheduled a week or a month or more out, unless it’s serious. Doctors do what they can in the short periods they can talk with you, but it’s mostly walk in, diagnose, leave. You get the same treatment plan as everyone else.
It’s not bad, you get treated, but you’re nobody special. Get in line and wait wirh everyone else.
Now get good insurance. Your PCP can always make a spot for you. Yoir tests may be done in-office, same day, or at a facility that can fit you in more quickly. Your treatment plans are more thoroughly examined and tailored, your doctors will spend time with you discussing your condition and treatment avenues. They’re available to talk to if you have issues with the treatment or at least their staff are.
That’s sorta the difference. I have a family member in Europe that passed recently but had a long battle with a disease. He had the “extra” private insurance. Pretty much what I described above. He was able to get seen and have medications adjusted quickly. I have an in-law in the same country who just had a fairly major health event. She had to go to two different facilities to get pushed up the line for her condition. She has normal public insurance. However, she was taken care of quickly and is doing great.
In a nutshell the extra insurance gives you quicker access and probably a more tailored and personal experience, you’re not lumped in with the “commons” at a public health service facility, you can “skip the line.”
Okay, thanks.
A recent experience here has made me think of the phrase "conveyor-belt health care". I think I made that up, but I may have heard it somewhere and forgot.
In my case: I had major pain in my neck that was leading to numbness in my arm and hand. I didn't even bother with my primary care physician, I just scheduled an appointment with a back pain specialist. The back pain place is extremely efficient and has been very good about treating the pain..........but not once have they raised the topic of, "What caused this and is there anything we can do to prevent it in the future?"
And, I don't want to detract from them, they are absolutely excellent at that treatment. But it's get in, get in the OR or exam room, chat for a minute, see you in 5 weeks. My appointments generally take 10 minutes or less when the doctor is in the room.
Years ago I had issues with my neck - which turned out to have the same root cause, but the symptoms were very different, so I didn't connect them - and multiple primary care physicians told me to take advil, even after I told them this was a recurring issue. Irritating experience, to say the least. "Hey, I'm stuck on the couch and can only move in agony for a few days two or three times per year." "Take Advil." Conveyor belt moves on.
I know we hate chiropractors here, with good reason, but it was chiropractors (who are also physical therapists, which might be the difference) who actually looked at the X-ray or MRI, found the underlying problem, and came up with treatment plans involving various exercises to attempt to solve the underlying problem. The MRI was ordered by the back pain specialist, so they had the imagery and could have found the issue. Why is there no room for that kind of analysis in our "legitimate" health care system?
Conveyor-belt health care.
Yep. That’s a good term. Assembly line health care, conveyor belt health care…you’re just a part moving along and the QC is perfunctory - no errors, but it doesn’t mean the part is good.
There's a certain irony between people having insurance who also need a gofundme... It begs the question, what exactly is the purpose of the insurance?
To take your money then say no when you need healthcare.
Basically, everything is priced arbitrarily high to a comical degree because of insurance so you "need" insurance companies to "negotiate" prices (which are already set for them, there's no actual negotiations - just the goofy "retail" price and the still exploitative "insurance" price) and then if its covered the insurance pays a fraction of THAT (closer to a "normal" price) and its considered settled.
So, even if your insurance won't cover it, you need them so you get the exploitative price instead of the comical price from the provider. There's no way to pay the "normal" price unless you're an insurance company.
There was a period of a few years where I did not have insurance. I'm a pretty healthy person, so I figured the risk was acceptable. The few times I did need to go to the doctor, when I told them I did not have insurance and would be paying out of pocket, they adjusted the prices for me automatically.
I thought it was ridiculous, even then, but I wasn't going to complain about getting a reasonable price, obviously.
Oh yeah, as someone that did the same thing it's insane that you can actually just negotiate your own price and it doesn't actually take much effort.
But if you already have insurance and it's bad you will pay more. Anything to get more money for a middle position not doing anything other than scrape money from everyone for only themselves.
That's not how insurance works in my country. You have the shittiest system imaginable or what? Like did you consult Satan on how to set it up?
It was set up by the insurance companies. They lobby hard to be able to maximize profits.
Plus when the ADA was founded, the only way they could get it to actually pass was to effectively let pharmaceutical companies set their own prices. Which as we can see, did not end well.
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Off the top of my head, these are the kinds of things my conservative family members or distant acquaintances would say and agree with:
What if somebody else gets more than me?
What if somebody who doesn’t “deserve” benefits gets them?
Why should I give a shit or have to pay for other people? (Unaware of how insurance itself works)
The economyyyyy!
Not even that though. Like if my chronic medical condition is adequately treated, I'm able to work, be productive, pay taxes, contribute to the economy, hopefully contribute to my community.
But that would eat into an insurance company's profits, therefore they'd rather opt to let me die and replace me with a new unit that can pay premiums longer without needing any actual medical care.
The only entity that has a positive financial incentive to pay for the medical care that keeps me healthy is the government.
Medicare for All, now.
In totally unrelated news most of the people reading this aren't going to get Social Security retirement until after half their age cohort is dead. The carrot was never meant to be eaten.
I had a stupid manager once that tried to argue with me about this. I don’t even remember her stupid name and I’m still mad at her lol! This was like 5-8 years ago
So, just sit back and watch it happen to others too, instead of standing up for yourself, your fellow man, and your collective human rights?
How horribly American :(
Hate to break it to ya, but nobody's had the ability to fight all that money. Pres Obama made the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) and the Republicans gutted the shit out of it since then. Currently they're killing mother's and children by dismantling abortion services everywhere they can. We live in hell and half of our voting population has sworn their souls to a political party that lies to and screws them constantly, but they still vote for because it's "their party." The other half is stuck with leadership that factionalizes the second they get power, and is basically just the Republicans from the 80s.
More depressing, the ACA wasn't dismantled by the GOP, it started its life as a piece of GOP legislation. It was never going to be anything but a way to force people to pay for private insurance with insane deductibles. The reason shit is this bad is because establishment democrats are in on it too.
You can thank people who keep voting for "moderates" in Democratic primaries for the continued failure of healthcare.
they still vote for because it's "their party."
No, they vote 'R' because they know the Party hates who they hate. The instant Republican "values" stop maliciously attacking women, LGBTQ+ folks, and brown people, they will start voting like Independents.
Indeed. This is America
Edit: I don't understand why hugg_Jeggs' comment has been down voted(yes, I agree vote count doesn't really matter). It's a fair point. The system is fucked, but it is a government of the people. Yep, a government that has effectively insulated itself from the people, but that only works if we allow it. I don't agree that is necessarily on one individual's decision to end life instead of saddle loved ones with dealing with debt, but I do think it's a perspective with merit. That is my reasoning for upvoting the comment.
So I'm honestly curious, what about the comment earns your downvote? Thanks for your input.
It stands to reason that country with the highest level of gun ownership also has the highest level of selfish cowards
In fact I do believe there may be a correlation there old bean 🤔
I've already had this talk with my daughter. I'm not presently ill or anything, but I see this as the new American version of estate planning.
Somehow, I've managed to build up a few meager assets to leave to my daughter and I'll be damned if I let American healthcare take it all.
(And please refrain from bringing up misinformed statements on estate tax. I'm a tax accountant. I'm more astute on that stuff than most of the population, and my little pile of shiny trinkets is well below any threshold for any of that to kick in)
I was just telling my wife last week that I would go end it in the woods before wasting or life savings on treatments that probably won’t cure me.
This was just a hypothetical convo I’m not sick.
Speaking of "non-system," wouldn’t Go Fund Me be mad about that? I’ve heard they’re really anal about using funds in any way that deviates from the stated purpose.
Considering the potential fallout, I can't imagine such a decision ever coming from them when it's related to funds meant for the healthcare of an individual used for his funeral instead.
I'm pretty sure everyone's dad says that. As a dad, I've said it too. I'd almost rather be in prison than a nursing home, it's the same atmosphere but way cheaper.
It's not unlikely you'd end up in a home ran by the same folks that own and run private prisons and supply schools with food.
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Everybody in this country needs to lift themselves up by the bootstraps and do what I did: have a chronic disease that is so ridiculously expensive to treat that the pharma company pays your deductible and out of pocket max for you so that you’ll stay on it. Then you get actual coverage for the rest of the year!
I’m a software engineer and my health insurance pays out significantly more than my gross pay every year. U-S-A!
I fell into this situation a couple years ago and I’m going to ride it as long as I can. The whole system of savings cards is so convoluted that it’s no surprise these kind of loopholes happen.