https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-arabia-hajj-egyptian-jordanian-pilgrims-die-mecca/
At least 323 Egyptian and 60 Jordanian pilgrims died during the Hajj pilgrimage in western Saudi Arabia, most of them succumbing to heat-related illnesses, diplomats told AFP on Tuesday.
they do a good job cooling the place, the floors are cooled and there's a lot of water sprayed everywhere and lots of fans and stuff, with the number of people going there there needs to be ample preparation.
The Hajj has been taking place over 1000 years. Hyper-aggro heatwaves in June is a new thing however. It wasn't religion, it was climate change.
Yeah and all the communist states are super ecologically friendly, oh no you don't belive they are communist do you? Handy.
But let's imagine a perfectly communist society, are workers all able to heat their house? Able to travel freely? Enjoy hobbies? If you answered yes to these then your either going to need magic or energy.
You can't just pretend capitalism is responsible for everything bad, unchecked consumption can happen in any system as can over production, ecological destruction, and all sorts of potential problems. I would love to transition to a decent type of communism but I'm not going to pretend it'll fix the climate on its own.
Yeah and all the communist states are super ecologically friendly
Historically, planned economies have had a better track record preserving ecologies and building sustainable infrastructure. That's largely because the economic planners deal with long-term timelines (five year plans being the standard) rather than quarterly business cycles.
When you're running a logging company and you have to ask where you're going to get your next batch of trees in five years or fifty years, you engage in more sustainable harvesting practices than a for-profit fly-by-night that only cares about growing the number of trees chopped down after every round of investment is depleted.
You can’t just pretend capitalism is responsible for everything bad
Capitalists do a much better job of scaling up industrial infrastructure rapidly, because they do fixate on the short term much more narrowly. Profit-driven practices have rapidly converted our coal-based electricity economy to a natural gas economy. And private speculation has created a booming industry for new technologies - from batteries to cryptocurrencies to LLMs.
But when you run up against the limits of your natural resource supplies, that rapid growth isn't an economic advantage anymore. You generate far more waste than your communist peers. You spark lots of international conflicts attempting to increase your rate of extraction. And you end up with a very top-heavy unprofessional administrative state, as power consolidates into the hands of financialized aristocrats with little real expertise in the businesses they administer.
In the modern moment, that produces a lot of problems directly attributable to capitalist business practices.
I would love to transition to a decent type of communism but I’m not going to pretend it’ll fix the climate on its own.
If the US were to adopt more Communist-championed energy, housing, and transportation policies, it would immediately benefit the global climate.
They all know the consequences and they think God will protect them from whatever.. Yeah, religion killed them.
The Hajj has been taking place over 1000 years.
With people dying on it, yeah. Religion is why they're making the trip to the desert
Yeah that would be a good story and support some preconceived notions but Mecca has always been incredibly hot, you can't just rewrite history to suit the message you want to send.
Precisely. Mecca has always been incredibly hot and yet pilgrims have not been dropping like flies. Ostensibly because over the centuries certain common religious/pilgrimage practices have helped them cope with the heat. But when climate change moves the needle to 11, those centuries old religious/pilgrimage practices no longer work to protect people.
That is the message I'm trying to send; what's yours?
Mecca has always been incredibly hot
What even is the difference between 40°C and 50°C? They're both "incredibly hot" aren't they? Quit your complaining.
So let me ask you. When some Russians stripped people of their clothes and made them march into the frozen tundra, do you really believe those Russians werent guilty of murder, it was all the tundra's fault?
When a skydiver died skydiving, do you really blame the pilot of the airplane that got him up there? These are adults who choose to believe in fairytales
Did the pilot push them out without a parachute? Then yes.
If religion starts condemning people doing this, then they won't be responsible.
Okay setting aside the tons of other problems with this statement, "worship" him? Really?
Muslims do not worship Muhammed, at all. Shia do have a weird obsession with his family that can reach worship according to my knowledge as a Sunni Muslim, but no serious sect of Islam worships Muhammed. "We don't worship our prophet, unlike what the Christians did to Jesus" is an important part of Islamic identity.
To an outsider it does feel a lot like worship. But I guess that'd require him to be viewed as a deity to be correct
It is forbidden for Muslims to worship any prophet or anything that outside of God. That would be idolatry.
I see fair point from religious doctrine perspective.
I don't buy the sky daddy thing so to me its the same all the same thing and acolytes make my argument for me it seems
The blatant Islamophobia is what I really missed from Reddit. Thank you for filling that hole
According to traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad,[94][95][96][97] with the marriage being consummated when she reached the age of nine or ten years old whilst she still played with dolls.[98][b] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty."[106] Beginning in the early twentieth century, Christian polemicists and orientalists attacked what they deemed to be Muhammad's deviant sexuality, for having married an underage[c] girl; acute condemnations came from the likes of Harvey Newcomb and David Samuel Margoliouth while others were mild, choosing to explain how the "heat of tropics" made "girls of Arabia" mature at an early age.[108][114] While most Muslims defended the traditionally accepted age of Aisha with vigor emphasizing on cultural relativism, the political dimensions of the marriage, Aisha's "exceptional qualities" etc., some — Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad in Egypt and others[d] — chose to re-calculate the age and fix it at late adolescence as a tool of social reform in their homelands or even, mere pandering to different audiences.[108][115][e]
In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad
Don't get me started on the current Muslim practices...
Before you start spazzing... this aint Islam specific as we can see Catholic church is notorious pedo org too.
With that being said, I am sorry bad facts hurts your feelz dear.
from your comment it seems like you think they deserved to die, and immediately copy pasted your wall of text when someone accused you of racism. not a good look i must say.
I was mocking the religious practice to honor a pedophile that resulted in people dying. I was accused of being wrong, I provided citation to support my position.
Nice try tho :)
When people start dropping Anti Semitic comments everyone gets up in arms. Blatant Islamophobia gets unequivocal praise.
A true Reddit moment.
Yes all Muslims are married to 9 year olds this is clearly observable by anyone not falling for them trying to hide it in public.
Thanks for your racism.
The pelgrimage to Mekka where Muslims worship uuuuuhhhhh....
Mohammed! Their God!
Which uhhhh
frantically pastes generic poorly researched Wikipedia article full of contradictions
Pedophile!
Don't look up the history of anyone from before the 20th century when these supposed Christians suddenly reached enlightenment. The inclusion of Christians is especially weird since they always pushed for younger ages of marriage than Muslims in the middle ages. Back then the Muslims were supposedly prudes.
Wonder why everyone didn't wait until they were 35 to get married in a time where the average life expectancy was 31 years.
Isn't the average life expectancy caused by infant death? Anyone living through pubity probably had a good chance of living to 70.
Yes. And that's why life expectancy of a 20yr old was 60yrs not 80+.
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/its-not-just-about-child-mortality-life-expectancy-improved-at-all-ages
The average age going up appears to directly correlate with the heightening of the definition of adulthood.
If humans could live to 1000 we would call a 600 year old dating a 40 year old a pedo
If my life expectancy drops I don't think it's going to suddenlyb make me stick my dong into a 9 year old
Presentism is the fallacy you are looking for.
Humans have even changed their bodies since the middle ages. Menstrual periods are later. Maturity goes slower. People don't die in 30 years.
Children having their parents die when they are 10 and get married at 20. Or children getting married at 10 and having their parents die at 20. All great choices which we don't have to make and can moral high ground about.
I could ask why you think dating an 18 year old is fine but a 17 year old is not. Because modern research suggests the brain only finishes development at 25. But of course our sense of "morals" is solely based on arbitrary laws in < present time > in < present location >.
Ah, the Great Cascade of excusing pedophilia
It didn't happen
Her age was 'unclear'
Her 9-year-old body was 'ready for it' <-- You are here
He had to plow her, as her parents could die any day <-- Moving here
Why would there be a problem with a 50-year old 'dating' a 9-year old <-- Nice to see that thrown in
She loved him
She was begging for it
Furthermore, your excuses just confirm Sunzu's allegation that 'modern' Muslims have not 'moved on' from these practices - they use them to excuse legalizing and enabling pedophilia today. Muhammad set the bar for them. And he set it very, very low.
You striped away points never mentioned and did not answer the question about the age of 25.
100 years ago the age of consent in Delaware was 7 years old. Your argument has been a non issue for the entire history of humanity until last 100 year until your magic universal definition of a chil turning adult at 18 took place.
And let's not forget the age of consent being 12 in many American places up to recently.
But nonetheless nobody takes this dumb moral highgrounding serious as the secular west is currently committing a Genocide on mostly children in a concentration camp in Gaza. But those are of course not children they are "terrorists" who are allowed to be killed.
Muslims do not generally believe in cultural or moral relativism. Allah is the one true God, his moral teachings are objectively correct. Why offer them a way out that they themselves aren't able to coherently accept?
Besides, cultural relativism is nonsense. If someone tells me it's okay to molest children, their perspective is not "just as valid" as mine. They're a monster.
Yes, this means a lot of people in the past, and today, are monsters. That's extremely plausible.
Not sure why in 2024 we still making excuses for pedohiles...
Christian clergy notorious pedos, nothing is done...
Other cultures bending out of shape to explain away their own pedophiles as this thread shows...
I am assume these are adult people and likely men. Are they pathetic or are they just pushing pedophilia?
Society committing Genocide on children and calling them terrorists suddenly are very worried about when a girl of menstrual age willingly gets married.
the history of anyone before the 20th century
Does it count when talking about prophets, deities, gods and such? Weren't they meant to be perfect?
I don't recall the possibility of god and his messangers being imperfect, in any century.
We humans, we are flawed and have societies whose notions are not static because we evolve. God can't afford the excuse of "errors of the past, I evolved"
You are ascribing evolution to a society of warmongers committing Genocide on children in Palestine. A society addicted more to wealth than human suffering trying to lecture people on what correct morals are.
A society with an abundance of food where people are starving.
I would reconsider how correct the Wests morals are.
I didn't even specify any religion. I just said that god, any god, by definition, can't evolve.
This ain't Hercules adventures where gods are just sky humans with perks. Mainstream gods (&co) are all perfect in their "mysterious ways".
As such, if a prophet was into pedophilia, then either pedophilia is right (which I personally find odd... but them I'm merely human...) or that prophet wasn't exactly the most exemplary lad.
Whatever the case, people's lives are worth of dignity, be it Palestinians, Israelis, South Africans or Santa. That's not what I was arguing against at all. We can defend people while, at the same time, pointing the finger out at some bullshit they do.
The west is also full of bullshit. So what? We can also point the finger at that. Be my guest. I never said that we were perfect.
The discussion is so shunned in Western society that it is well understood one should always repeat your opinion in public and never question it.
I would once again ask why teenagers having sex is regarded as totally normal as long as long as the person they are having sex with is not 18 yet.
If teenagers truly should not be subject to sexual experiences because they are not ready then surely this would not be normal. Or is it okay if a victim performs the deed?
I don't see any references or sources at all in the page, and I couldn't find other news sites with comparable numbers, I call bullshit.
it was reported that there was 41 jordanians who died trying to get to mecca without permits and they slept outside in the sun so that part was true but inflated number, the Egyptians thing is just a lie.
The new deaths bring the total reported so far by various countries to 577, according to an AFP tally.
The do cite their source.
At least 60 Jordanians also died, the diplomats said, up from an official tally of 41 given earlier on Tuesday by the Jordanian government.
Do you think it's impossible that 41 people could die, reported on, and then more people die?
You can also read the AP or AFP reports, which are easily accessible.
I read somewhere that people who fork over money for a special visa to Saudis Arabia have access to air conditioned stations along the way. Most likely the Egyptians are doing it unofficially, which is likely easier to get away being in the general region already.
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion. Many hundreds or thousands of people die each year doing the pilgrimage, often times from crowd crushes, literally getting squished to death because there are so many people, or just exhaustion.
There are only a few short video clips on YouTube of the massive crowds and it is sort of unnerving seeing that many people in a moving crowd. Super weird what religion makes people do.
There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.
I do hope they find a way to make it safer because people will never stop doing it, but the whole concept just seems absurd to me.
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion.
If they'd died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C'd movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?
There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.
So much of the modern Saudi state sees the Hajj as little more than a massive tourist attraction. They're heavily invested in Disney-fying the experience, such that the maximal number of high-paying visitors can slide through the building frictionlessly.
Which is a shame, because the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event. You aren't supposed to visit these holy sites encapsulated into these exclusive expensive little bubbles. You're intended to mingle with people from the rest of the world and revel in a certain shared experience common to the faith the world over.
What we're seeing isn't some toxic religious ideology that Saudi administrators need to cleanse for mass consumption. Instead, we're seeing a commercialization and stratification of ideology, by which elites get a bespoke Hajj experience and Saudi officials get to operate as gatekeepers of tradition at some astronomical markup.
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion.
If they'd died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C'd movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?
Well I think religion is one of the few things you can get enough uneducated/dedicated people to die in the hundreds from heat stroke without people being like"I should probably leave"
All the examples you gave, of course except being trapped on a bus, people would realize there is a serious issue and start leaving once the first handful of people died.
"I'm not leaving the theater till I see the end of Iron man 2, I don't care that half the theaters dead and I'm next!"
EDIT
the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event.
lol, weren't women not allowed to go alone until recently or still?
If they'd died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C'd movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?
What a ridiculous statement. No it wouldn’t be better, but when was the last time you heard of nearly a thousand people dying at an F1 race event, or inside a movie theatre due to lack of AC? If that were happening multiple times per year we would shut down F1 /movie theaters in a heartbeat.
Fact is that the Hajj claims thousands of lives every year, all in the name of religion.
Which is a shame, because the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event. You aren't supposed to visit these holy sites encapsulated into these exclusive expensive little bubbles. You're intended to mingle with people from the rest of the world and revel in a certain shared experience common to the faith the world over.
Yea as long as you aren’t a woman.
Don’t be surprised that people are using religion to grift the gullible and exploit the poor - that’s what religion is best at.
The Saudi government has an ethical responsibility to mitigate the risks. It’s not like this was some freak accident. This was entirely predictable and this will defiantly continue to happen until protections are put into place.
when was the last time you heard of nearly a thousand people dying at an F1 race event, or inside a movie theatre due to lack of AC?
The Qatar World Cup killed a minimum of 400-500 project workers during construction.
If that were happening multiple times per year we would shut down F1 /movie theaters in a heartbeat
I wish that were true. But we've got a history of being extremely callous with athletes and spectators alike.
The Saudi government has an ethical responsibility to mitigate the risks.
I couldn't agree more. Shane they're cheap ass fucks
It’s ironic that you cite a country where the government and ruling family are linked inextricably to Islam, but I digress.
I wish that were true. But we've got a history of being extremely callous with athletes and spectators alike.
Name any other ongoing event that kills thousands of people every single year like clockwork.
Not trying to argue or anything… I just think that Islam is a foolish religion in the same way that Muslims might think that Mormonism is a foolish religion.
Mormonism is stupid, but if they had an event that killed thousands of people from Utah every year I would like to think that at least OSHA would step in or something.
They should build a giant enclosure over the Kaaba so it can be air conditioned. Or at the very least put in those mister-fan combos all over the place that are in amusement parks.
they do a pretty decent job cooling the place, the problems are outside the kaaba area though, as they can't cool down all the city,
the jordinians who died were sleeping in the desert as they were without permits and wanted to hide from the authorities.
the Egyptians though were not mentioned on any other news sites I know and I don't see any references or sources, so I call bullshit.
