Absolutely 100% agreed. The organizers of the Palestinian protest should have kicked them out.
Not only is this despicable, it dilutes the very important effort of raising awareness of what Israel is doing in Gaza.
If you really wanna play out that conversation, here's how that goes:
I say "The vicious Nazi graffiti doesn't belong in the same category as the anti-zionist protest signs"
And you say "Those protest signs aren't just anti-zionist, they're antisemitic. If you're calling for the end of the state of Israel, you're calling for the extermination of Jews everywhere."
And I say "So if you really just wanted to say that anti-zionism is antisemitism, why did you pretend to agree in your first reply?"
--
But we don't need to bother with that tedious BS, because I can use my super hacker skills to... view your comment history.
You're trying to replicate OP's original sleight-of-hand.
Placing unequivocal Nazi shit in the same category as people calling for international law to finally be applied against a decades-long genocidal regime, and then saying "You gotta tolerate or detest 100% of these things in one fell swoop. It's a bundle deal. And remember, I put some Nazi shit in there!"
If you've watched just 2-3 hours of news coverage in the past 8 months, you've seen this play before. It doesn't -- or it shouldn't -- fool anyone anymore, and you should be embarrassed to even try it.
No. I have no issue with criticism of Israel. You get the prize for the wordiest most self matubatory strawman on the Web today
If you believe Israel should not be entitled to at least some of the land they currently have, you are being antisemetic.
If you think anyone is so entitled to land that they can commit crimes against humanity without recompense, you've lost the plot. Is the land theirs? No idea and depends on who you talk to, cause quite frankly, the argument that they were there first means every American that isn't indigenous needs to get out, and that's not even a great 1:1 analogy. If they are indeed entitled to that land, there are waaaaaay better ways to goin about than bombing hospitals. Zionest are jus makin things worse for Jews in general, cause their religious fanatics that are sure in their crusade and the rest of us are either with them or against them.
But why wouldn't you therefore return the USA to native Americans who also experienced war crimes, or perhaps Canada to the inuits
Well, if memory serves from what they told me on the heritage trip, the Israelis were kicked out pre Jesus, when they were defeated by.... Someone ( me memory ain't always the best) and said someone gave the land to a different set of enemies, bastardizing the name of enemies into Palestinians. So we're talkin about a much longer chunk of time, like less than 500 vs 2400 years, and as far as I remember ( could be wrong) the Palestinians we're the ones to kick them out, jus a different enemy. Also the indigenous people aren't bombing hospitals and food aid in hopes of pushing whitey back into the ocean, but do I think we owe reparations to them, among others, including that of more land? Absolutely. Does this include if it were to displace me? Sure. It would suck but ya know, if it was done above board and peacefully, not much I can do. Anything involving war crimes though would instantly loose my sympathy.
Sorry i wasnt very clear. I mean I believe the reverse. The USA was originally largely the pilgrims who were kicked out of the UK (specifically east midlands) due to religious persecution, in the same way that jews largely fled to Israel after persecution in other middle eastern countries.
Israel was created due to Jewish people being persecuted in Europe (Nazis), not the middle east. There were jewish people living in the region before.
Back when the British mandate was established the Jews purchased the land they occupied from the Ottomans. There isn't really much cause to suggest war crimes were committed until after said mandate ended and all the surrounding Arab states decided to declare war.
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948)
That’s not what zionists are fighting for, and you know it. Any argument you make for Israeli statehood applies to Palestinian statehood as well.
Further? Then state of Israel exists, and you can’t say the same about a Palestinian state, nor can you say Palestinians under Israeli rule have anything remotely resembling representation; while they’re being massacred in a genocide.
Of course oct 7th was fucking awful, and evil. But so is the campaign in Gaza, the west bank and Lebanon. It’s patently offensive to basic reason to try and justify what Israel is currently doing.
Any argument I make stands for both sides? Then doesn't that make you a hypocrite for disagreeing with the sentiment.
I am saying jews should have some right to exist inside Israel. Palestinian leadership wants them all dead/gone. From the river to the sea doesn't mean "lets share the land" in case you didn't know.
Uhm. Your last paragraph is wrong.
That’s Hamas. Who wouldn’t have nearly as much power if Netanyahu didn’t ensure they have the funds necessary to pose a semi-credible political entity… over a decade ago… specifically to disrupt Palestinian statehood and independence.
So, once again: Zionist’s are militantly opposed to Palestinian statehood, your argument is a bullshit red herring because Israel already has that and is currently the one committing fucking genocide to see that Palestinians never get it.
The last paragraph is not at all wrong. Lots of people other than Hamas want Israel to completely cease existing as a state. If you disagree with the sentiment that Israel should be able to have SOME land (and by extension the fact that chants like "from the river to the sea" are antisemetic) then you yourself are one of them.
Hamas was the official party recognized by Palestinian voters. If you have an issue with Israel acquiescing to their demands in order to maintain some sense of stability then you have no right to suggest they intentionally tried to sabotage relations.
Hamas was recognized by plurality vote (and substantially less than a majority,) in 2006- over fifteen years ago.
Of the people that would be eligible to have voted in ‘23, less than half of them were even able to votein ‘06.
Nice try at painting Hamas as democratic.
And once again you are fucking defending a sovereign state that is committing genocide for the sole purpose of- a state that already has that sovereignty you seem to believe they don’t.
It’s patently obvious that you are full of bullshit. Are you really saying that some Palestinians being extremists justified the genocide Israel is currently committing?
Are you really trying to say that Israel has the right to exist- and indeed are a sovereign state, but that Palestinians don’t? Because Israel is the one actively committing genocide, and has denied Palestinians representation for over 70 years, and whose current elected government is actively ensuring can never have representation.
There is no genocide you worthless liar. The population of Palestine did nothing but increase until the war started. If Israel really wanted to genocide them all they would have all been carpet bombed dead mamy years ago and we both know that.
From the river to the sea doesn't mean "lets share the land" in case you didn't know.
Likud Party knows!
I fully agree. They dismantled their settlements in the gaza strip in 2005. They aren't "exterminating" anyone as evidenced by the fact that the Palestinian population has done nothing but grow until the war they started.
keeping Palestinians in open air prisons, requiring travel permits to go between concentration camps, which are often denied, and controlling the flow of good in and out of those camps while allowing the systemic encroachment on the west bank is, yeah, extermination. add onto it an ai-powered murder campaign and we can all see history repeating
Open air prisons? With a population density less than that of a typical american city? Malnutrition wasn't even a problem before the war. This open air prison narrative is just pure bullshit.
As for "controlling the flow of goods in and out" you have absolutely no legs to stand on. Even with import inspections in place Hamas has been consistently firing rockets into Israel hoping to murder random civilians since their inception.
"For years before the latest war, Gaza was subject to an Israeli blockade, backed by Egypt. Under the blockade, humanitarian aid, including food and commercial imports, was tightly restricted. Even so, levels of malnutrition among Gaza’s roughly 2.2 million people were low and comparable to those of countries in the region."
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/11/world/middleeast/gaza-famine-hunger-crisis.html
Straight from the mouth of a cretin who regurgitates the same bullshit talking points you do, so presumably you should have no problem trusting them.
Even with import inspections in place Hamas has been consistently firing rockets into Israel hoping to murder random civilians since their inception.
this doesn't mean israel didn't have them under seige.
The point is that Israel had a damn good reason to have the strip "under siege".
Did you expect them to just sit there and do nothing to prevent them from overwhelming the iron dome??? What the fuck is wrong with you
Open air prisons? With a population density less than that of a typical american city?
this isnt a rebuttal
While Increased movement is a positive trend, it has not yet been translated into meaningful improvements in humanitarian indicators; a full lifting of the blockade is required, among other solutions to the root causes. As of July 2022, the food insecurity rate in Gaza was 65 per cent, up from 62.2 per cent in June 2021, and the poverty rate stood at 65 per cent, up from 59 per cent in 2021
Gaza Policy Forum summary: Experts agree that Israel’s dual-use policy causes acute distress
"a full lifting of the blockade is required "
In other words "Hamas must be allowed to import whatever armaments they desire"
Go check yourself into the hospital for brain damage if you think this is remotely tenable.
If you wanted to argue that they should just allow more food in or something I might have been able to have a conversation with you but clearly you just want to see Jews being indiscriminately murdered.
Yes it is, and its a smokescreen to say it is not.
Your downvotes doesn't make your racism not exist. Mobs always think they're right. Fuck all of you.
Do you care to back up your claim at all or are you just going to go with "these two distinct words with distinct definitions actually mean the same thing because I said so" the same way TERFs and transphobes talk about sex and gender?
Is it possible to support the black community in America without supporting black separatism?
Saying an imperialist Jewish ethno-state is bad is the same as saying Jews are bad!
Yeah, you're not real bright.
It can be but it isn't necessary. I am a Jew and not a Zionist. Obviously the example above is anti simetic, but there are peaceful (but depending on your views perhaps tenuous) arguments against the state of Israel
That's all that should need to be said.
I don't care who's genociding, it's wrong
I don't care who's the racist, it's wrong
I don't care for their reasoning or defenses, they are wrong regardless.
Tolerate neither, ever
We don't stand for this, the bottom picture are 2 graffiti made by people who we don't know, or when they were made, and 2 protestors with anti-Israel posters, not anti-Semitic. The wide movement of protests are absolutely not anti-Semitic, and you trying to post shit like this conflating anti-zionism with anti-Semitism is disgusting
The star of David makes the posters ambiguous they could refer to either Israel or Jews. The grafitti in the images is explicitly antisemitic. Splitting hairs over this is pretty gross imo. I don't like crticiism of Israel being called antisemitic, but that doesn't make antisemitism suddenly ok
Dude, nobody is saying the graffiti is not anti-Semitic, it literally says "kill the jews", how on earth would that not be antisemitic. I'm saying they're putting the graffiti on top of protestors in an obvious attempt to conflate antizionist protests with antisemitism
It's not hard to distinguish between Jews and Israel. Those words I just used do the job. The protestors could do the same
In both signs, you can clearly see it's the flag of Israel because of the blue stripes on top and bottom.
.. And are you REALLY saying that the "final solution" phrase in this context doesn't seem just a tad antisemitic? Look, I'm opposed to Israels actions but I think you're being willfully blind
People have attacked synagogs for Israel's actions because of the star of David. People conflated the two. It would be great if people did nuance. They do not
Yeah, some people have done that shit. I'm not arguing "there's no antisemitism anymore", that would be ridiculous, and antisemitism sucks. What sucks too is using antisemitism broadly to accuse non-antisemitic but anti-zionist protests against genocide in Gaza.
I agree. But I think it behoves people protesting against Israel to be very clear on that point and using the star of David and phrases like "the final solution" is the very opposite of that. To me, that looks pretty antisemitic. I say that as an atheist who detests the actions of the Israeli state and who has been pro Palestinian for decades. Bottom line, hatred of any group is appalling and people need to be clear that's not what they're doing
Are you implying there are people who didn't stand for the first image and might stand for the second?
Yeah... I can denounce nazis while and at the same time denounce what Israel is doing in Gaza with a clear conscience.
I think you are mixing up the Star of David with the Israeli flag, which has the star on it.
Edit: I didn't notice the 2 smaller photos, that shit is unacceptable.
The others ones are also iffy. Talking about the abolishement of a jewish state while using the phrase "the final solution" is just bad.
In my opinion leftists should create a Zionist symbol to separate Israel(the state) from Jewish people.
If they can convey the separation of the two for normies that would help their rhetoric game massively. (Israel ≠ Jewish people)
I stand by all effort to deny fascists the luxury of an effective narrative (Israel=Jewish people)
I mean the girl with the poster with the trash bin clearly put the Israeli flag in it, not just the star of David. If that's going to be called antisemetic then there's no symbol you can really use without getting called antisemetic for it.
yeah and the other protest one has the american flag in the middle so it to points to governments. I mean the graffitti at the top is not necessarily related to protests at all. You can always find shitty graffiti. Im sure I could walk around the city and within an hour find something with fag written somewhere.
Huh? The flag of Israel already does not mean all Jews. It's a state, not an ethnicity or religion
There is no symbol that can realistically do this. The symbol is just the vessel, and it's subject to change. Defund the police, turns into, well, the police just need more training, turns into, well the police are underfunded, turns into, fund the police. There's not like, a way by which you can easily meme your way out of it, because it's just what happens. The best defense has always just been a kind of moving target.
I concur. It would help combat the default response of "yOu'Re An AnTiSeMiTe!" to any criticism of Israels policies or its shithead leaders.
You can not guarantee that there will be no idiots at a public protest. But if the organisers are aware of them being present and do nothing, they should be judged accordingly.
•
As I keep saying.
If you accuse those against Israel as being antisemitic, you're gonna make more of them actually antisemitic
Well yeah, antisemitism is antisemitism. Antisemites can and should fuck off, and we should aid them in that process.
I feel like the "keep the world clean" is a really badly drawn israeli flag where it looks more like the star of david than the israeli flag. Rest is just disgusting antisemitism