I wonder which one is harder
Edited to be slightly more fair to people complaining that they don't think genocide is good just fine
Edited to be slightly more fair to people complaining that they don't think genocide is good just fine
This guy does literally nothing but tell people how Democrats are awful people (and implies you shouldn't vote for them)
TONS of posts like that.
I really wouldn't be surprised to find out he's Russian.
No-one is supporting genocide. If people don't vote for Biden (and even if they do, the popular vote might not be enough), Trump will win.
The only case where saying "don't vote for Biden" would be if Trump was actually a better, smarter, more emphatic president, and would use the US's power to instantly stop helping Israel.
And who exactly thinks that's even possible in any scenario or even parallel universe?
Not voting for Biden would be like being a pro-Hitler British person in 1939.
He's a voter suppressionist actively trying to get Trump elected under a thin veneer of guilt and shame. He's appealing to people that haven't been paying attention and think the Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians started right after October 7th, rather than in 1948. By doing this tries to claim that American support of genocide is brand new thereby absolving himself and others of the guilt associated with it, unless of course they also support The Genocide™ by voting for Joe Biden.
More importantly he can claim that Joe Biden is the only presidential candidate that supports The Genocide™, so vote for someone else and you won't be supporter of The Genocide™. The quiet part is that Trump never supported The Genocide™ because it never happened until Biden was president.
Don't pretend nothing changed after October 7 or that there aren't candidates like Jill Stein and Cornell West who oppose the genocide.
Lol okay.
Every time people bring up Jill Stein and Cornell west as serious candidates it makes me ask how they expect either to get 270 electoral college votes. So I'll ask you, the serious progressive advocating for Jill Stein and Cornell West, how does either one of them get 270 electoral college votes? Hopefully you can do better than the last guy who's response was "just tell people their ideas and then get votes".
I also think its telling you couldn't even pick one candidate. You're convinced 3rd party candidates are our saviors but instead of picking ONE candidate to support, you take the shotgun approach and throw out a bunch of names and hope one of them sticks. There isn't even a single 3rd party candidate you support, but you're desperately telling me to pick one, any one, as long as it isn't Genociden Biden, because they oppose The Genocide™. Vote for anyone else and I'll be showing I don't support The Gencoide™ either.
Even if I were convinced that either of them could get elected, I am not convinced that either have the political capital to govern in an effective manner, much less change the course of America's support for Israel. So what you're really advocating for is for me to help Donald Trump get elected on the infinitesimal chance that a miracle candidate could get elected and then have no practical impact on Israels actions.
All that aside, little has changed since October 7th other than Putin's boy Benjamin Netanyahu seizing the opportunity to start a war that will keep him in power as long as it's going on.
What's even more important to Palestinians than the 40,000 or so dead Gazans is the day after the war. Will it result in full occupation and control of Palestinian territory by Isreal, which would be the final stages of the slow burn genocide. A plan which Trump endorses.
Or will it be a general withdrawal and return of Gaza to Palestinian control, which has the possibility of a two state solution. A plan that Biden says he supports.
Either way, Israel is a sovereign country with it's own hopes and ambitions. Any American president has only limited ability to impact their decisions. This election is a choice between using our little influence to push towards a two state solution or push towards full Israeli control of Palestinian territory.
lol okay. every time people say they don't know how someone gets 270 electoral college votes, it makes me ask if they know how electoral college votes are allocated. so i'll ask you: how do candidates earn electoral college votes?
i also think it's telling that you are condescending and dismissive toward your interlocutors, dredging out red herrings and smoke screens instead of dealing with what they actually said, and relying heavily on appeals to ridicule.
even if i were convinced you were engaging in good faith, i'm not convinced you could see past the bad faith propaganda you're regurgitating.
all that aside, no party owns the votes of any voter. it is the responsibility of the candidates to earn votes. voters are making it clear that they want the genocide to be stopped, and some candidates are making it clear they aren't going to do that, while others are making it a centerpiece of their campaigns.
Yup. These people honestly think… or, “honestly” think- that not voting is going to actually do something.
Now we have two scenarios to address here:
One:
They actually think in good-faith, that they are going to make a change. To emphasize- they actually think that doing nothing will cause something to happen. Which means… they are entirely unaware that someone will be elected with or without their help.
And-
Two:
They know damn well that a non-vote will help Trump and that is why they are here. There is clearly more evidence to support this being the case as you’ll never see them on any post critical of Trump, suggesting that people not vote for him. Nor do you see them arguing that Trump wouldn’t be a worse choice. Nope. They’re dead silent on the issue.
They don’t need to actively support Trump, or suggest people vote for him here as they know there are very few supporters of his on lemmy.
However, they DO know that conservatives show up to the booths to vote. In DROVES. All they need is to convince a small amount of people to stay home, and their boy wins the White House.
One of these two are correct. The problem is that everyone loses either way- and they don’t care.
I'd argue the people hiring ethno-thugs to beat teens protesting the genocide are the ones on the wrong side of history, but I guess we'll see. Biden isn't going to win, that's what you get when you ordain the guy who came in 5th in the first 3 states the only allowable candidate for two primaries. You "I hate Trump more than anything" Bidencrats are EXACTLY why he's coming back and you don't even see it.
"Churchill is a war criminal and a drunk, we're better off appeasing Hitler!" - you as a Brit in the 30's
"Our alliance with Germany is paramount and who's to say anyone has even been genocided?" -- you as an Italian in the 30's
You're really bad at this, you know?
You're literally helping elect a fascist leader. And you don't have a defense, because you're doing it on purpose, which is also why can't even mention it.
if you vote for biden, you are voting for genocide
that seems kind of objectively true to me
you don't pick and choose which policies your candidate's vote goes towards it counts for all of them
I could obstruct the ICC with a wet paper bag ;)
But that's business as usual- he's still the only thing limiting Israel’s genocidal warfare, not that you really care about Palestinian lives or anything.
Why does anyone believe he's doing anything to limit jack shit? Every time someone so much as bats an eye at Israel he puts out a statement condemning antisemitism
Unfortunately for you Israel has been committing genocide against the Palestinians since the 1948 Israeli/Arab war, and the United states has supported them since then. I guess if you want to pretend this is something new and Biden is the cause of The Genocide™ so you can feel better about yourself without actually making a difference then good for you. I applaud your mental gymnastics.
me:
voting for a party enabling genocide is voting in support of genocide
you:
Unfortunately for you Israel has been committing genocide against the Palestinians since the 1948 Israeli/Arab war, and the United states has supported them since then. I guess if you want to pretend this is something new and Biden is the cause of The Genocide™ so you can feel better about yourself without actually making a difference then good for you.
also you:
I applaud your mental gymnastics.
You:
if you vote for biden, you are voting for genocide
Me:
If you're a human being that exists in America you have supported genocide in some capacity, and voting for Biden doesn't mean you support it anymore than if you do not vote, voting 3rd party, or voting for Trump. America needs to fix its relationship with Israel and Palestine, but Joe Biden is no more culpable for what's happening in Gaza than any president before him, and he's light years ahead of the other main party candidate in his support for Palestinians. Your ability to place that blame solely on Joe Biden and people who support him involves an impressive level of mental gymnastics.
Hope that clears it up for you. If you mean something else I'd love to hear it.
If you're a human being that exists in America you have supported genocide in some capacity
America was founded on the genocide of native Americans, this is objectively true
Of course acknowledging that has always been a problem for Americans, but who knew stopping themselves from doing it again would be such a hard sell
voting for Biden doesn't mean you support it anymore than if you do not vote
cool, but that's not what i said
i said voting for biden is voting in support of genocide
you might hate genocide, but objectively, voting for a candidate aggressively enabling genocide is voting in support of that genocide
the rest of your comment is just filler
Biden isn't aggressively supporting genocide, and voting for Biden isn't supporting genocide.
The rest of your comment is inane prattle.
i'd say sanctioning the icc for attempting to stop said genocide is being pretty aggressive about it, as is continuing to block any un-led action, as is continuing to send arms
which do you disagree with?
The rest of your comment is inane prattle.
i know you wanted to do the ol' switcheroo but it doesn't really work when you responded to everything in my comment
You:
refraining from using my vote, so that Trump will win is the moral and reasonable course of action to help Palestinians, despite Trump being an insane fascist who's also Putin's little bitch
This person is completely fine to punish America if they don’t get their way. They are aware of the damage Trump will do to the LGBTQ+, to women’s rights, to education, to PALESTINE…. but they clearly don’t care.
If they can’t get their single issue addressed- they are willing to ruin an entire country so that they can stand in the wreckage and say
“I told you this would happen if you didn’t listen to me.”
Do you know who the candidates are? Who the other guy is?
The person whos promised to remove all climate actions and regulations on day one. A guy who is taking dick from Putin every night while screaming "harder daddy". A drooling megalomaniacal diaper wearing fascist, who supports Putin and Netanyahu.
You're not voting for genocide. You're not even voting for Biden. You're voting against Trump.
If you're an American with the right to vote and you don't vote Biden, you are directly supporting Trump, Putin, Netanyahu and other far-right leaders.
Have you ever heard of the trolley problem? You're online, so you should have. Do you know what's never the answer to those problems? "I walk away but also take no responsibility for allowing more people to die." Sorry, not an option. The lesson is that inaction is a choice with consequences.
The trolly problem conceptualized a situation where there is no one on train who can pull the breaks
Bidens on the train. He could pull the breaks.
Yes, us enabling the DNC's Price Is Right strategy of always being $1 better than the GOP, and not one iota better, only enables their worst instincts, which doesn't actually electorally serve them to begin with, even.
Voting for Biden without trying to tell him he needs to stop supporting genocide will likely still result in him losing.
Weird how you didn't deny being a Russian instigator stoking division among progressives.
Yeah, sure. That's the reason.
It's just completely out of the realm of possibility to prove that you're not a Russian troll. /megasarcasm
Where'd you live?
The idea of actually caring that 2.3 million people are on the brink of starvation is so foreign to you that you have to conjure fantasies of Russian troll farms targeting Lemmy to explain away complaints.
Does it concern you a little bit, though, that I'm really American and there might be a lot more who think like me?
Fine, assume I'm a Russian troll if you want, but it'd be smart to at least pretend that there's a small possibility of there being a low turn out, and you should have a plan on how to address that.
That doesn't even make any sense.
No wonder you're working in a troll factory with that sort of cognitive capacity.
Why do you want Trump to win?
What do you mean that doesn't make sense?
Biden's approval is trash no matter what i'm doing here. There are voters that are already going to sit this out that need convincing; either you need to convince them to show up anyway (hold their nose to genocide to prevent more genocide), or you need to convince Biden that his position on genocide is a losing one (it looks like it already is)
In 2016 Hilary lost because voters didn't think the establishment gave a shit about their concerns, if you don't think that's a risk again all hope is lost.
Biden's approval is trash no matter what i'm doing here
Weird then how you keep doing something you know is completely futile for, say, >8 hours a day.
What are the conditions like in those troll farms?
Bet you would love living in a civilised country like me. Too bad. Keep pushing that garbage.
You know you can't say the thing outloud. You know you're very strongly implying to "not vote for Biden until he fixes Gaza conflict", which is ridiculous, and definitely a dumb man's idea on how to try to manipulate people into not voting for Biden.
Thus, the joke about the cognitive capacity. Too bad you can't recognise how stupid you are yourself.
Why is it that when I point to the reality of the situation, suddenly I'm a troll?
Bidens approval is at 38% right now, how many votes do you think that equates to?
I don't know what kind of campaign could make up that kind of deficit without a total about face.
I did that. I'm also going to vote against more genocide, done not just abroad but at home.
In the voting booth, there is no "no genocide" button. Your choices come down to "more genocide" and "less genocide", and you get to push towards one outcome or the other.
Personally, I'm going to take a brave stance against "more genocide", but if your principles keep you from engaging with the real options, well.
I'm sure the people who die who wouldn't have otherwise will forgive you.
I'm not worried about what I do in the voting booth, I'm worried about the 1.3% margin Biden won by in 2020
Did you also tell a bunch of people quite loudly that you'll vote for him anyway?
Idk seems like you've effectively said 'if you do this again I'll be really upset, but ILL DO NOTHING IF YOU KEEP DOING IT'
from where I am a lot of people have been saying that second part REALLY LOUDLY but barely whispering the first part
No one is arguing a little genocide is good. They're arguing that a lot of genocide is clearly worse. This seems obvious, but I'm constantly surprised how fucking stupid people are.
They are not stupid; they are deliberately misunderstanding.
I feel a little bit silly even trying to “explain” this like there will be anyone who’s informed by it, but no one here is pro genocide. I would be surprised if you could find 5 people on Lemmy ever who said that genocide is good if done by Democrats, or at any other time.
Here is where to find a protest; go there and meet some new friends, do what you can to stop the genocide. How to do it, I don’t really know, but posting on Lemmy about not voting for Biden will not accomplish it for a couple of different reasons.
They are not stupid; they are deliberately misunderstanding.
Lot of column A, little of column B.
"Go to this place and keep your protest away from my peaceful politics-free community."
It is certainly not the case that people here need any encouragement to be louder about not wanting their candidate supporting genocide.
I edited it for the both of you to make if more fair, hopefully you don't still take issue with the framing
You claim that I think genocide is fine, and then hope I don't take issue with the framing?
This is a very bizarre conversation
I'm not saying you think it's fine, i'm saying you need to convince no-genocide voters that it's at least acceptable.
It's not acceptable. There are a lot of people arguing that it is not genocide, but there are zero people arguing that any genocide is acceptable.
Acceptable in exchange for less of it?
I'm really trying to work with you here. You are all here spending time on communicating something, what is it you're trying to do by it?
If it isn't to convince people on the fence about Biden because of his support of Israel, what is it exactly?
I typed part of a response but honestly what’s even the point
Here is how to find a protest in case it is useful to any of the 100% of Lemmy people who think that genocide is neither good nor fine
No one is arguing a little genocide is fine either, but again, I'm constantly surprised how fucking stupid people are. As a great example just look at you in this post.
What if the buttons were (and kinda are) "Palestinian genocide with survivors" or "Palestinian and Ukrainian genocide with no survivors"?
If your willing to accept a little genocide in exchange for not having to convince anyone of anything, sure
Wait actually is this you convincing no-genocide voters that a little genocide is fine? Woa that was slick!
Oh yeah *just *convince the Democrats. Sure thing, I'll have it done by Tuesday. Honestly I feel stupid for not thinking of just convincing them. Why has no one tried this before? /S
Thanks. I really need it, since when Trump wins he's going to expand the current genocide, then start a new one that will target me.
Believe me, I'm not rooting for it (or don't, Idgaf).
Democrats are more principled than Trump voters though, if one party can survive running on it it's not the democrats.
What is a 'little genocide'? I thought your whole shtick was that genocide was genocide and 'less' is still genocide.
Are you conceding that there are degrees and less is better than more?
Are you conceding that there's a choice between convincing people genocide is ok vs convincing democrats it's not, and you'd prefer the former?
Voting is the only binary choice. You can do whatever other 'choices' you're babbling about at the same time if you want.
That's not a terrible idea actually, work it from both ends.
Unless you care about the substance of the issue, but if not then go nuts.
weird how that's not a button already, did you want me to add to for you? I didn't think it would be one you needed.
Yeah go ahead and add a third button labeled "Double Genocide with Trump" to the meme- that would actually make it pretty funny.
And then a guy who’s banging it over and over again while saying “I will NEVER support a genocide”
(It is way more than double btw. Not that numbers are the point, but way more than 70,000 people died who didn’t need to just from Trump fucking up the Covid response, and you can add in Kurds or Ukrainians if you need it to tick the Genocide Region of France box, and that was before co-opting the military and preventing it from giving the strong push back they did the last time around)
If you think this meme is saying "genocide is fine, actually" I have no idea what to tell you.
It's been a while since I've seen the Chewbacca Defense bad-faith arguing technique: Say something so nonsensical that it's difficult to even arrive at a response without being tainted yourself by the incoherence.
It would certainly be easier than trying to convince anyone of anything, if that's your preference
I honestly tried, but the text was too small to read i thought someone might hit a button they didn't intend
Dude! Nice man you built there. Really slick. What’s it made of? Oh? Straw?
Cool cool. Lightweight. Organic. Biodegradable! No downsides to that I’m su—
Holy shit holy shit it’s on fire. The straw man! It’s burning! Your poor man of straw! It couldn’t stand up to the heat of even a little interrogation!!
Ugh. I’m shocked about this! Apalled. No one could have predicted this, no one.
I am so sorry for your loss. It must be truly a blow. Well, take care now. I usually block accounts like these. :)
How apropos that you would choose a picture of a character who is insane and wants to murder people to respresent yourself.
Insanity is banking on voters turning out for the least popular incumbent in living memory just because the other one is worse
Tell me you've never met an American without telling me you've never met an American
JFC, no Democrat is supporting genocide, they're just not willing to pay the price to stand up to the people committing it.
Besides, all you accomplish by beating up the Democrats over this is ensuring the people who are literally pro genocide will be in power next year
My only goal is to convince the spineless liberals that they can't just count on people holding their nose this election. "The other option is worse" doesn't even begin to convince the voters they need to win this election
Quick reminder that was Clinton's strategy. Ask everyone here if you're not familiar how that turned out
Well, sweetheart, under FPTP voting there are only two options.
I'm going to choose the one that minimizes harm.
I mean that's not actually true
But I get your meaning, and personally call are way too comfortable with the options available to you
I don't like the options available to me, but unfortunately which options I get are out of my control.
You're still choosing Trump, even if you argue with Joe biden in the shower about Gaza while you do it.
No, the DNC leadership chose Trump when they proclaimed that a man who couldn't win without Obama calling the other neoliberals to make them drop out so that Bernie couldn't win. Your part of the party decided it was worse for Bernie to win than Trump in 2020, and now what probably was going to happen in 2020 anyway is coming home to roost because your political "experts" chose a presidential candidate with no constituency to go up against a man who has replaced God to his followers. This is not and has never been on those of us who actually have a conscience beyond us not going this hard out of the gate in 2000 when this loser party showed it doesn't have the balls to defeat the GOP and needs to be replaced with a REAL left party that's willing to fight.
Welcome to a two party system. You don't get good options, you get to vote against the worst option.
I mean, if you really, genuinely think Trump is a better option, then stay home/vote for him, I guess.
Yeah! Maybe if if they add the votes on this post to the election results, Biden won't even NEED to win Pennsylvania, Wisconsin OR Michigan! Could you imagine??
Oh look! It’s a .ml’er come to spread their…. “wisdom?” I’m surprised there’s no memes and emojis though.
Your sarcasm doesn’t change what I said being true. It just makes you look bitter.
For what it's worth, I totally agree. We've "lesser evil"ed our way into voting for genocide, the greatest evil. Sorry that things are going to get worse under Trump, but there is a 0% chance that I vote for either of the genocide candidates, even if one is worse than the other. Democrats will have to lose elections until they field an anti-genocide candidate for the presidency (I can't believe that's a qualification now).
Democrats will have to lose elections until they field an anti-genocide candidate for the presidency (I can't believe that's a qualification now)
Everyone here feigning outrage are pretending as if the democrats don't have a huge turnout problem this year, and I'm worried they have no interest in advocating to fix that problem except rhetorically dancing around their candidate's hugely unpopular policies
The button on the right must be hidden under a panel or something. I don't think they know it exists.
