Man or cartoon, still my first crush
That show was so ahead of its time! It had depth, complicated characters, and didn’t shy away from exploring situations with questionable morality. I didn’t know Frakes was involved!!
And for some reason the list doesn't include LeVar Burton or Colm Meaney. Someone's got it out for engineers.
Holy shit! You’ve blown my mind. Guess I watched Gargoyles before I knew much about Star Trek actors.
I loved watching it after school but had no idea it was half the Enterprise crew until I watched all the Trek series’ during covid
Yeah. Frake's character and delivery is great.
And Marina Sirtis chewing the scenery without any 'tone it down' direction is top shelf entertainment.
I can picture Marina asking 'was that too much'? And the rest of the creative team saying 'No. It's perfect. Keep doing that.'
Is it one of those kids' cartoons that are still good if you rewatch them as an adult?
Gargoyle stans might disagree, but I think by the standards of an adult its mostly mediocre with some moments of brilliance. This is better than most childhood cartoons stand up, to be fair.
Will absolutely disagree. I'd say the weak episodes are few and far between, and most episodes are rock solid (no pun intended). I rewatched it recently and while yes, you can tell it was a kids show, a typical episode has better writing than 90% of the shows made for adult audiences that I've seen in recent years. And very few shows can rival the best episodes of Gargoyles.
Note, this does not apply to season 3, which was made by different people and is best ignored.
Batman: TAS vs Gargoyles is a coin toss.
Which reminds me, it will never happen, but I would kill to see a Batman / Gargoyles crossover. I want to see Bruce Wayne and Xanatos trying to out chessmaster each other.
If Batman has time to prep, no contest. Also, without Conroy, rest in peace, it wouldn't be the same.
Also, without Conroy, rest in peace, it wouldn’t be the same.
While Conroy is my favorite Batman, there have been other good versions and I'd be open to a different one. The real obstacle would be getting Disney and to a lesser extent DC and Warner Bros. on board.
If Batman has time to prep, no contest.
If Xanatos just comes at Batman directly and overtly, sure. But Xanatos isn't some bankrobber, mob boss or assassin, he's a mastermind whose schemes are so brilliant that his name is synonymous with plans that end in victory no matter what happens. He's also a billionaire, industrialist, scientist, martial artist, and even dabbles in magic. He's essentially a villainous Bruce Wayne, only instead of becoming a ninja he did more of an Iron Man thing. And most importantly, as the villain, Xanatos almost certainly gets to be the one with time to prepare. He gets to be the one who initiates the plot, while Batman has to react and figure out that Xanatos is the bad guy.
Here's my pitch:
I would assume the plot would involve Xanatos trying to do business with Wayne Enterprises, maybe a joint research project. He sends the pack into Wayne enterprises facility to steal a prototype that he actually has access to already. While their security is compromised Coyote hides a tiny robot disguised as a mundane item (remaining dormant until it's needed), then ditches the others who all get captured and sent to Arkham. Xanatos then comes to Gotham to assess the damage and evaluate the impact on the project, where he meets with Bruce Wayne.
While those two are wearing their poker faces and sizing each other up, the pack is getting messages from Coyote who has them relaying offers from their employer to inmates like Clayface, Mr Freeze, the Madhatter and Bane (people who have unique abilities or technology, and who want something Xanatos can offer). This will eventually lead to them staging a riot and breaking out, which I think should go wrong when Poison Ivy ensnares, oh, let's say Jackal with her mind control pheromones.
I would be happy to just have Batman vs Xanatos. but if you want to do a full crossover, you could have Elisa come to Gotham because of the pack and needing to testify because New York is trying to extradite them. The gargoyles come along because they suspect Elisa will be in danger, and because they assume Xanatos is behind it. But they can't prove anything and Elisa can't just go around making accusations. This does however allow her to interact with Commissioner Gordon, Bullock etc. which could be fun. She could also interrogate Bruce about the break in, which could also be interesting since she probably assumes the worst about him. You could also have gargoyles fighting escaped Batman villains, could be a lot fun. Really just squeeze in as many fun character interactions as you can.
You could have Batman go after a sighting of a winged creature that he assumes is Man-Bat, only to end up picking a fight with the gargoyles. That could be a pretty awesome fight, though it does rely on a misunderstanding which is not great, and I would rather not have them just tell Batman that Xanatos is the bad guy since he's a detective and I want him to at least suspect Xanatos on his own.
Eventually you could build up to a climax where Coyote's remote robot has broken through Wayne Enterprise's security and is wreaking havoc on their systems. Batman figures out that Xanatos is behind everything, and Xanatos maybe figures out that Bruce Wayne is Batman (or at least that he's working with him). Cue an epic final battle with Xanatos now upgrading his arsenal with freeze rays, mind control devices and whatever other acquired tech he can bring to the fight. Of course Batman will win, but it will be a hell of a fight.
And if Xanatos has taken Madhatter mind control tech, I have to think he's going to have a conveniently broken mind control device on under his helmet. That way, even if Batman beats him, he has reasonable doubt on his side. But while Xanatos gets to walk away as a free man, some helpful citizen gives Elisa a stack of internal memos and financial documents that show that there's a lot of shady bookkeeping going on to pay for those toys Xanatos is using, which should be enough to get the feds to put his whole business under a microscope and make his life a living hell for years. I'd actually love it if Batman hired Clayface away from Xanatos and had him deliver the documents disguised as Owen, conveniently getting caught on camera handing over the files and saying that if anyone asks he'll deny he gave them anything.
Ok, lot to unpack there. Love the crossover fandom. Not just that, but the depth and realization to how it would likely play out. Of course, you know that the show spawned a TV trope named after its nefarious schemer.
Very well thought out and I applaud your efforts. Now you just need a top tier holo-programmer and we could all immerse ourselves in your creative glory!
Edit: wouldn't mind Diedrich Bader as Batman. His take is fun and world weary enough.
Recently rewatched the series, it absolutely holds up as an adult. There's a few weaker moments here and there, but the average episode is very solid and has excellent writing, and the big event episodes are among the best things I've ever seen on TV. There's a lot of depth to the characters, all of whom are very enjoyable and they are not afraid to go surprisingly dark.
Just remember that the third season doesn't exist. It was made by different people and IIRC they people writing episodes that hadn't even seen the show.
I have a theory that TNG is all an illusion created by Puck and/or Titania to try and psychologically manipulate Xanatos and Demona on a subconscious level. It started as a joke but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense.
For one thing, it explains away a lot of the issues with Troi. He made her an "empath" and counselor in the illusion to try to force her to learn empathy and get her to deal with her own inner demons (this also explains why her powers are inconsistent and work more like magic). But her mind resists being influenced, causing her to sabotage herself to undermine the illusion's effects. That's why she's always giving such terrible advice.
"What's that, you think the only emotion you can feel is anger? And you felt intense pleasure when killing someone with your bare hands? I suggest exploring these darker emotions alone and unsupervised."
Thomas Riker is in gold because it's the color coyote wears, making it easier for them to accept the duplicate. His presence forces Xanatos to confront the conflict between his ambitions and the people he cares about. At the same time, it prompts Demona to work through the bizarre relationship issues that come from having feelings for both your ex and their pallette swapped doppelganger.
Worf's there as a way to help coldstone recover his "humanity" for lack of a better word. That's why he starts out as wereworf in the early seasons and becomes more thoughtful and sophisticated as time goes by.
I could go on and on like this.
This blew my mind a bit. I was looking for an excuse to rewatch Gargoyles, anyway. Now I have a watch party to plan.
I hated him, but that's just a metric of how good acting and writing there was. This cartoon has a certain flavor to it, like an old doom metal record found in the garage probably. And authors did a lot more than I expected from these series, with all these quotes and references, and it feels somehow fitting with the cheap style of 90s cartoon, it kinda adds to the feeling of a lost media treasure no one but you knows of. Thanks for reminding me about it. And for that I'm to share my beloved quote by Goliath: 'As long as we are together, there's our home', that, albeit simple, stroke me with a thought of home being not just a place, or not a place at all, but your treasured people (or, well, gargoyles) making home wherever they are, that rings very right with me at that time when I hate my current surroundings and gravitate towards those who understand me. That's kinda telling about it's quality if people can recall the quotes from an old show by memory. It feels like I need to rewatch it once again. Thanks.
Thank you for sharing. I love comments like this. Just real people, real experiences, no stupid punchline, no clean-cut, curated experience. Just people talking.
Those are the moments I love the most. It’s interaction not competition and it’s sad that that’s become a rare thing.
We became afraid of being sentimental or wrong because modern internet does encourage that. I thank Lemmy for sometimes I feel like I can tell something there wihtout trying to win over someone, to be right and get upvotes. I recently replied supportively to a person I've taken a fight with a week ago, and that seems organic to what we people do over time. It's just a simple message from me, nothing to write home about, really, but I'd like for web to become less edgy and more diverse and accepting. That's the way to encourage more people to open up.
Apparently they've announced a live action movie, which I dread.
On the other hand, they recently started publishing a comic by the original creator of the show, which picks up after season 2. I have yet to get my hands on it, but I have high hopes.
Jokes on you bub, I'm already going to hell I've way out another. Anything is better than bowing to the Tyrant upstairs.
Of course it's edgy bub it has the word bub in it you half expect the comment to put on yellow spandex and sprout claws or something