Can you be a non-religious chaplain? That feels like discrimination if there’s a religious requirement.
Edit: As of 2018 at least, nope.
I saw a Navy chaplain when I was going through some tough times in the Marines. I told him right off the bat that I was an atheist and he didn't push any religious shit on me. He just talked to me and worked with my command to get me seen by a trained therapist. Other Marines I knew had similar experiences. Chaplains are officers outside the normal command structure and are trained to provide services to everyone regardless of their faith or lack there of. Also a lot of military members are at least nominally religious so it makes sense to have someone to coordinate religious activity, especially overseas where there aren't local religious institutions.
I disagree that it "makes sense" to pander to magical beliefs in the military and elsewhere. Many mental health issues are due to this refusal to individuate and evolve into a fully functioning adult. The natural progression of humans is to evolve mentally and discard childish thinking and ways. Churches intentionally keep people in this child like state so they are easy to manipulate and abuse. There is nothing to be gained from retarding evolution into adulthood and in fact doing so causes disorder.
It’s pretty fucking childish to label metaphysics “childish.” Don’t conflate the shitty faith that gets shoved down our throats with the average person just trying to establish meaning (until their search for meaning infringes on your rights, of course). It genuinely disgusts me when people of one metaphysical persuasion are so rabidly antagonistic and make sweeping generalizations they’d be super offended about jf someone of a different metaphysical persuasion made about them. Adulthood involves maturation and maturation involves empathy. Get some.
Eww. The foundation that religion rests on is always childish and destructive. It is not possible for anyone who has magical thinking in one realm to not also make terrible decisions in other realms, like voting or other public policy. So that shit always infringes on others.
So prove all metaphysics wrong. Your claim is “all religion is wrong” so you have the burden of proof. If you can’t do it, you’re unable to draw these conclusions. Note that this is loosely equivalent to someone saying “my religion is correct” so you’re going to face the same uphill battle those folks face. It’s a ridiculous and unfounded claim.
I also take umbrage at your unjustified personal attacks on some of my peers from academia and my professional life whose search for meaning has led them to vastly different conclusions than me. Some of the best people I know have faiths I think are dumb yet agree with me on empathy and class struggle. You’ve not empirically proven you have any high ground, much less the moral or societal ones, so you’re really firing half-cocked here.
I understand what you're doing, but that's not how that argument works. You can't even prove metaphysics exists or is a fruitful endeavor (which is hotly argued as irrelevant in academic circles) let alone that the burden is actually on magical believers to justify themselves, not the other way around. Fence sitting while using the kind of language you use tells me you're a pseudointellectual, which will fool many on here, hence the voting trend, but not all of us.
I don’t think you understand logic. You’re saying “all religion is wrong.” This is a stronger claim than “this specific religion is correct.” See, if someone says “there’s a giant kettle in space,” they need to justify that position. If someone else comes along and says “not only is there no giant kettle in space, there are no valid theories other than my perspective,” now the burden of proof is on the larger claim that everything is wrong and only this singular perspective is correct because, surprise surprise, it’s a repackaging of the first argument with the added attack on everything else.
I’m not on the fence. If you’re not a determinist and you believe in science you’re an idiot. I also understand others might have found meaning in some other way, no matter how dumb it is.
I tried to stick to smaller words this time. Was that better?
Same argument can be made for Atheism which is basically people trying to convince themselves God doesn't exist just so they can be immoral and live life without consequences. Why should society pander to that?
Belief in a god, gods, or the lack of belief have nothing to do with morality. In fact, most atheists I know seem to have sincere morality.
We do have inherent designed morality, because morality exists and we know of it because of the fruit of the tree in the knowledge of good and evil. So since morality exists and is real, everyone has a knowledge of it from the beginning.
However, Atheism does like to contravene morality and redesign the moral compass to suit whatever agenda someone would like to push. An example being is the dehumanisation of Jews and people being desensitised to violence to perpetuate the holocaust. Showing opposition brought social and political persecution, all to benefit an authoritarian agenda of militarism and not balming themselves.
Or for a more present and relevant example, foetuses being dehumanised and abortion being normalised and showing any opposition to it may bring social persecution, as to benefit a capitalist agenda and being told "it's for the good of our freedom" while it actually just relieves the state's responsibility to care for it's young and to keep young women in wage slavery.
So yes, Atheists can be moral. But my point is- once you throw God's solid and unchanging word out of the window, you can warp and "normalise" immoral things and do what you want.
I think there's a requirement to render counseling services to all denominations, including atheists/agnostics, because the chaplain corps is pretty much the closest the Navy gets to mental health care while deployed. Not the greatest system, in all honesty.
Part of the roles of a Navy Chaplain are to provide religious services. This is inherently a religious role, it should not be expected that an atheist or “non-theist” will perform these roles correctly.
Chaplain: a member of the clergy attached to a private chapel, institution, ship, branch of the armed forces, etc.
By definition, a Chaplain is a religious insurgent.
Insurgent: a rebel or revolutionary.
So, an Insurgent Chaplain: An individual who is a Champlain in a country founded on the concept of separation of Church and State, but insists on being a paid state official to enforce their religion on members of the state.
Wow. I was thinking of Buddhist and Taoist chaplains, Or UU. personal gods may or not be held, but they don't usually push them on people, although the former two can and do have abuse allegations brought, some substantiated. Idk about UU.
Nevermind that this role is basically a deployable mental health professional and the only MHP that many of these unfortunate souls have access to.
I swear, this all or nothingness is just rotting to see. Maybe we do need to nuke ourselves.
I'm autistic. One commonality among many autists is aggravation at witnessing unfairness. Furthermore, I can't stand it when things don't finalize (e.g. a puzzle with no discernable solution or a film with an unresolved plot line in a TV series.)
Having to bear witness to this darkest of timelines and being forced to endlessly await its culminating event, the downfall of capitalism and Western civilization (which is absolutely what deserves to happen), is driving me up the fucking wall.
angry bro up there just looking for a fight. you gave a well thought out, value-added comment and don’t deserve to be mocked for it.
And you don't understand mocking. Or that I'm not a bro, which is fair since most internet users trend male.
I'm worried that you don't know what that aphorism means, because that comment made absolutely zero sense whatsoever.
A phrase my guardian used growing up and has unfortunately stuck with me as my initial response, my apologies.
The full phrase I think is "Thats like a pot calling a kettle black" or something like that. And my regrettable and curt response was "we are alike, and reading your comment has upset me in that I interpretated it with the implication that we are not."
Not quite right. If you get upset that someone pickpocketed your phone when I know for a fact that you were just bragging last week about having shoplifted something from a store, I might say "That's a pot calling the kettle black", meaning "You are not recognizing that you are being hypocritical for calling out an action that you yourself are guilty of."
A better phrase to indicate a likeness would be "You are preaching to the choir." However, I don't know an expression which would encapsulate the sentiment you were attempting to project.
You aren’t wrong but that is sad.
Also this is leaving me curious of us weird religions could be chaplains. Like, could we wind up with a unit of marines bitching that their chaplain is a neodruid?
A chaplain position has no religious requirement, and every chaplain must be accepting and work with every religion without discrimination.
Now, obviously not every person will view them as a viable spiritual leader for their specific faith, but there is only so much that is possible.
I heard a story of a Protestant who preferred to use a Catholic chaplain, as they cannot break the seal of a confession unless it is in dire circumstances (eg, they confessed to raping or murdering someone)
There's nothing wrong with a Protestant discussing stuff with a Catholic. They agree on 95% of things.
Sure, what's a little heresy amoung friends!
If they actually believed in God then this sort of thing would matter to them, of course they don't they just like the excuse of pretending because then they can avoid complex moral questions and having to take accountability for themselves
We aren't saved by a seven day or billion year creation period. We aren't saved by the perpetual virginity of Mary or her assumption. We aren't saved by reverend singing or clapping hands. We are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb sacrificed for us.
i mean, i see nothing wrong with the “non-denominational chaplain” position itself or targeted recruitment advertising for it, aside from the underlying implication that access to mental health services for members of the armed forces is essential an afterthought.
but all that is a completely different situation than using a baptismal portrait as recruitment creative. how is that “all or nothing”?
Why doesn't the US Navy just deploy mental health professionals?
Religious doctrine is a shitty substitute for actual assessment.
You are clearly unaware that chaplain are not preachers, but please continue your simplicism.
Chaplains were at one time the Christian Soldier, giving last rights and leading prayer basically.
The role is no longer a religious role, but the title has remained. They now function entirely in a multi-cultural/Multi-Faith/Non-Religious role. Essentially they are there to be emotional/spiritual support to anyone who needs it. If I'm not mistaken, they all are trained in some variety of counseling/therapy.
There has been major progress in allowing that role to become what it is.
Ideally, there would be no war and no need for soldiers.
But we live on earth, and while we can,and must, continue to work towards that ideal, the fact remains that, in this moment, there are many people who are enlisted.
Many of these people enlisted because they came from families/areas that have generations of trauma and oppression, and the military was their ticket out. These broken people are often lucky to have ever received any kind of 3rd party mental health care. Add to it the trauma of combat on behalf of a government they don't necessarily even want, and you have a shitstorm of emotions to wade through.
Complain about the MIC, the political greed, and the assholes who join and abuse their fellow man. But for fucks sake, have the mental fortitude to hold a bit of complexity when judging a situation.
I know the history of military chaplains. They were particularly important when the soldiers were all expected to be Christian (if not devoutly Catholic) and not only needed last rites, but forgiveness when they killed in the line of duty (which has always been a morally questionable act).
Nowadays they're still presumed to be Christian and are spiritual counselors first, with a major presumption the former serves as an adequate replacement for the latter. My understanding of it comes from being a peer with some peer counseling experience among veterans who suffered from TBI or PTSD or both, and who got fucked by their service and the DVA, which is how they ended up in the same program for insolvent civilians as I was. The DFA told them to walk it off, so they ended up sitting in a group circle with me. And I got to hear the tales that drove combat-hardened soldiers to tears and despair.
When someone comes to me telling me they're thinking of enlisting, it's their stories I tell, a few out of thousands. Not of horrors on the field (though bullying in the ranks and sexual assault infest the troops like lice), but that he US armed forces don't care about the marbles of their enlisted, and will gladly leave veterans on the street in the cold. Even if they pay for your college tuition (which they won't if they can weasel out of doing so) you're at high risk of coming home too traumatized to get a degree, or a decent job.
The troopers of the US are still dealing with the aftermath of the spiritual readiness subprogram from the George W. Bush administration, when Rumsfeld was still dreaming of devoting divisions of marines to be soldiers of God and non-Christians (anyone who wasn't specifically Protestant Evangelical that was approved by administration) was downgraded and forced to attend Evangelical services listed as training. Probably because it was rough depending on PMCs to clear villages of civilians who were in the way, and if God tells you to massacre a village of civilians, you don't ask if it's legal or ethical.
So no, I expect chaplains in the US Navy to be about as functional when it comes to counseling as school chaplains in Tennessee that might be replacing school counselors and school psychologists. And I expect chaplains to explicitly balk when a patient has life experiences or identity that runs against a chaplain's identity. Even when the LGBT+ or socialism-curious soldier is reporting for counsel because he can't visit his family because everywhere he looks on the homefront are danger points where the enemy could be hiding, and his family wants him to tell war stories, but none of his experiences are the kind of thing they show in action movies.
And the funny thing is this is a real problem. It's not about if the world were a better place. Chaplains who aren't adequately trained to counsel disrupt unit cohesion and diminish combat readiness. It would be a benefit to our units if they had access to real counseling, and could actually report a sexual assault without being silenced and discharged. But Washington cares more about its ideology and identity politics and getting hits on social media more than it cares about a fighting force that is actually functional.
Counter-recruitment writes itself, and it's been this way for decades in the US armed forces. Long before my recruiter lied to me and bullied me in the late 1980s in a blunt effort to get me to enlist.
“God wants you to split atoms so we can move airplanes across the ocean” - frustrated navy chaplains wondering why they took this job
Something, something, separation of church and state
No government money should be spent on religion. If you as a private citizen decide to donate your money towards theology enjoy — in fact, I’ll provide an account number that you can throw it into, but keep the theology out of things that I already detest my tax dollars funding.
I don’t want the war machine. I don’t want its BS themes!!
Chaplains aren't really religious - yes they have that association but aren't "preachy" if that makes sense. They are there to guide and support.
To be honest actual Chaplains (and christians) could take a lesson from armed forces Chaplains.
Hard to get soldiers to die for the interests of the rich and powerful that the soldiers don’t benefit from without a magical afterlife. Tale as old as humanity.
People have been dying for religion since recorded history. You think the military wouldn't exploit that?
Meh, this isn't really dystopian imo, they provide a really good service. They will provide limited mental health/crisis counseling to you (regardless of faith/lack therof), with no written documentation. Unless you're telling them you plan to actively hurt yourself or someone else, then they're 100% confidential.
The military has gotten better in recent years about this, but when I was a young Airman 15 years ago, it was drilled into our heads that you DO NOT go to Mental Health for ANY reason if you wanted to stay in and keep your career. It was viewed as an instant career killer if you went back then.So Chaplains became the "go between" in a lot of instances. Because there was no record.
I used them 3 or 4 times before I finally bit the bullet and went to Mental Health back in December. 3 of the 4 Chaplains I saw were awesome and just listened to my anxieties and then talked me down as to how unlikely they were to pass. The fourth did ask me if he could pray for me at the end, and I'm sure I could have said no, but I was more like "Sure, I guess." So he said some kind of generic prayer, handed me a pocket bible and sent me on my way. He wasn't bad, still listened to my issue, but I could see someone who is very uncomfortable with prayer being too nervous/anxious to say "no" if they didn't really want it.
Growing up with the GOAT exam, I was always designated the Vault Chaplain. I took the GOAT the other day and got Shift Supervisor. I'm a little relieved.
What's dystopian about having chaplains in militaries? Because how dare someone assist someone else in their faith which involves worshipping someone other than our lord and saviour Darwin and Pope Dawkins?
Good. Freedom of religion should be given to people in armies too, whether they are Christian, Muslim or Atheist. There's nothing wrong with recruiting a minister in those religions to help out with their adherents.
Just finished watching Praying for Armaggedon and my mind went straight back to my comment here about the crusades never ending. I know they probably won't, but all the people here who see no issue with OP really need to watch this film. Everyone does.