this post commits the cardinal internet sin of having nuance sorry :(
If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel's crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you're either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent. Either way, you have no business lecturing about the moral course of action in this crisis.
It was featured in the TV Show "Rocket Power" like 20 years ago, and people in the USA have been ordering burger, fries, and a milkshake since like the 1940s or even before.
Yeah, but dipping the fries IN the milkshake?
I guess I'm just not hooked-in to my own country's culinary culture. 😔
If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent.
The answer to Biden's complicity in Netanyahu's genocide is greater political pressure for him to stop.
Of course, people who don't want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
Of course, people who don't want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop? That’s a silly opinion if so. Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
I want this to end as much as you, but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect. And in our country there are only 2 options so vote for. So if I’m not voting for Biden, I am just helping Trump get in office and do more harm.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop?
I don't know. They sure as hell don't want Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu's genocide.
Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
Then they should pressure Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu's genocide. They won't. They get mad at people who say Biden should stop supporting genocide instead.
I want this to end as much as you,
Yeah.
but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect.
Yes. He should still stop supporting genocide. Maybe centrists should say so.
You can be 2 things at the same time. This whole thread is about voting. It’s possible to pressure Biden while also voting against the undeniably worse candidate.
What doesn’t make sense is voting in a way that will end up significantly worse for Gaza and saying you’re doing that because you can’t possibly support Biden.
It’s possible to pressure Biden while also voting against the undeniably worse candidate.
Then centrists should start doing the former in addition to the latter.
Instead, they scream that anyone who does the former wants trump.
I think when you joint a thread that’s about voting, or references voting, these are the comments you’re going to see. Doesn’t means we’re “centrists”, just means we care about the election results IN ADDITION TO the state of our world.
Doesn’t means we’re “centrists”, just means we care about the election results IN ADDITION TO the state of our world.
If you care about election results, you should be doing everything you can to pressure Biden to abandon a losing issue.
If not "centrist", what term would you prefer for people who would rather support genocide and lose to Trump with all that entails than abandon support for genocide and win?
Of course, people who want an excuse to support trump will pretend anyone not vocally raging about Biden every day is a lover of genocide.
I've said multiple times in this thread that I'm voting for Biden. I've told you that multiple times as well. You have chosen to ignore it and call me a trumpist.
Your insistence on pivoting the conversation to be anti-biden literally every chance you get is suspicious to say the least
Your intense rage and conspiratorial suspicion at people criticizing Biden for actively abetting a genocide is pretty suspicious to say the least.
So anyone opposed to curtailing abortion rights also loves actively killing babies too, right?
It's definitely not that it's more complicated than that. It's that such folks love to watch babies get murdered. Tickles them pink. Your "argument" is definitely not a cop-out meant to shut down anyone who disagrees by accusing them of supporting something that at most .01% of humans would ever support. It's completely and totally honest.
It is really hard to believe you folks don't want genocide when you spend every day railing at people who want it to stop. I recognize usernames from the people who were shouting we were supporting Trump for voting uncomitted in a primary. If your reaction to every instance of someone trying to pressure Biden to not continue a genocide is vitriolic rage, then I think I should be questioning your motives.
I don't think you want the genocide necessarily, I just think you're so terrified and self-interested that you won't risk literally anything to stop a genocide. You're cowards who are going to let my coworkers families be shelled out of their homes in the hope that Biden will save you from Trump, rather than trying for even an instant to prevent it from happening. I also think that supporting the genocide is going to lose Biden the election, so I think even your self-interested fear is deluded. Biden is sitting on damning evidence of his administration pushing for Israel support despite growing evidence of Israel's crimes, and I am not naive enough to think that will remain secret until election day.
You know a lot of people really are as stupid as you take them to be, but many aren't. What you're doing here is obvious
Oh? what I am I doing? What's the newest baseless accusation are you going to throw at me because I don't like genocide?
People aren't upset because Biden isnt trying hard enough to stop Israel. We're upset because he's an active participant in what theyre doing. Using executive orders to bypass congress to get them more weapons.
I'll be nice and assume you're just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
No, don't worry, just like how the right-wing winning in the US will TOTALLY lead to the left-wing suddenly organizing and taking power, enabling genocide will actually STOP it.
God, the brilliance of this modern form of accelerationism, it's just... frightening, isn't it?
Oh right because the fascist whose party’s project 2025 proposal secures him as king and destroys democracy isn’t Hitler, the other guy because Israel. Meanwhile, Donny spent most of his propping up and outwardly supporting Bibi telling the world he’s the real friend of Israel. You complain about Zionism but support Fascism so what are you actually trying to accomplish?
Famous just not real, it comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_H%C3%B6ltermann from the SPD. I think it got misattributed in english because Americans didn't know the difference between social democrats and communists.
While said by Holtermann (though in a different sense - saying that after Hitler, the SPD will have to clean up; rather than saying Hitler will radicalize the working classes by his grotesque behavior), it was more prominent as a KPD slogan in opposition to a united front with 'social fascists' (the SPD).
If anybody could find anything at all written in the 1930s saying it's a KPD slogan, and not just people decades later calling it "well known" with no source and only in English with no explanation what it was in German, that would be really cool.
It's the Civ Ghandi manoeuvre: Vote for the right wing until the value wraps around and you win!
The side effect is sadly that you are the first to fire nukes, but that's a fair price.
You ignore the other option in current criticisms of Biden. No, I don't want Trump to win, but it sure would be nice if Biden listened to criticism and stopped his current, weak "I told Netanyahu, 'Stop this, bub, or I'm going to get really cross with you. Now, listen here, I mean it this time!'" enablement of the genocide Israel is carrying out. He's apparently able to listen voters on stuff like not banning menthol cigarettes for fear of alienating black voters due to black smokers predominantly smoking menthols, yet when younger and more left-wing voters ask "Could you please stop fast-tracking Israel's ability to commit genocide so I can vote for you with a clean conscience?" the response is apparently, "Lol, get fucked."
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him. He can cave to pressure from a fraction of the African American population that smokes over something that will actively help kill them, but is seemingly committed to ignoring young voters across demographic groups to enable something that systematically murders innocent people, makes the US complicit in crimes against humanity and offers literally no tangible benefit to the US, but could get him some more of that sweet AIPAC money.
I just love how "leftists" accuse others of not taking fascism seriously enough and then post shit like this when the opportunity to put up actually presents itself.
When Fascists Vote, Not Voting is Collaboration.
That's not a platitude, that's basic math, and it's true even under a not absolutely fucked FPTP system like what we're stuck with right now, let alone with it.
When fascism is on the ballot, you vote against it or you are a collaborator. End of story. No debate.
If you need more convincing than just being informed that the other candidate is a fascist running on a platform of doing fascism, you are a collaborator.
If ten people are at a table and a Nazi can sit down at that table unchallenged, there are eleven Nazis at that table.
When fascism is on the ballot, you vote against it or you are a collaborator. End of story. No debate.
I'm voting against it. To be clear, that means a vote for Biden.
Biden should stop supporting genocide, and you should stop pretending that opposition to genocide is support for Trump.
Look, in past elections we didn't have to wonder if not voting for a candidate would have lasting implications for the future of this country and the freedom of the world. This election does. I think what has happened, and is continuing to happen, to those in Gaza is gut wrenching. As a father of a 4-year-old, I would be mentally eviscerated if I lost him. I would probably go from "father" to "extremist" in that instance, too.
It's hard for me to vote for Biden knowing his support for the state of Israel. I also know I want to be able to vote in the future. I want women to have bodily autonomy. I want marginalized groups to exist and not have their very existence removed from the vernacular. I want the government to remain an agnostic-ish state. I want our allies to stay allies (except for maybe the state of Israel) and our enemies to stay enemies.
I can also admit to not knowing everything about the geopolitical landscape to know just how much sway Biden may have in his support for the state of Israel. We like to think the president is a king and can snap his fingers to make his will THE will (see all the people thinking Biden can control gas prices, for instance), but that just isn't so.
Look, in past elections we didn’t have to wonder if not voting for a candidate would have lasting implications for the future of this country and the freedom of the world. This election does.
I already said I'm voting for Biden. I don't need to be lectured into doing something I already said I'm gonna do.
I can also admit to not knowing everything about the geopolitical landscape to know just how much sway Biden may have in his support for the state of Israel. We like to think the president is a king and can snap his fingers to make his will THE will (see all the people thinking Biden can control gas prices, for instance), but that just isn’t so.
Biden circumvented congress to provide weapons that he knew would be used for genocide.
If withdrawing his support won't do anything, we aided a genocide for no reason other than Biden really fucking wanted to. If it will do something, his continued support makes the genocide possible. I do not buy any argument in favor of continuing support for genocide, because there is no good reason for genocide.
Expecting me to buy the "he isn't a king" line when he acted by himself without congress in order to sell Netanyahu weapons when he didn't have to is insulting.
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him.
It's funny how little people believe in democracy whilst simultaneously claiming that their vote is too important to cast for an immoral cause.
If Biden loses, it is on all of us. If Trump wins, it is on all of us. If Biden wins, likewise, it is on all of us.
That's the cost of living in a somewhat-democratic fucking society. As much as some would love to have a king or a fuhrer or some friendly neighborhood oligarchs they could knuckle under and point to and say, "God help me, it wasn't me, it was all them!", it's not fucking there yet. And anyone with an ounce of fucking morality in them will fight to prevent it.
So Biden literally has no agency to change one stance that is overwhelmingly unpopular with young voters, many of whom are threatening not to vote for him over this issue? Exactly, this is entirely on Biden. You can make all the excuses you want, for anyone whose eyes aren't painted on, it's obvious what's going on.
Young voters turned out in record numbers in the last election, and they favored Biden by far, helping him win. But sure, Biden can turn his back on these voters, he did win by such a comfortable margin last time that he has no reason to be worried. He has nothing to gain by doubling down on his stance on Israel, and everything to lose.
I've seen so many excuses for why voters should feel they personally failed democracy if they don't vote for Biden over his support for genocide, but not a single one of you have offered a reason why Biden should hold course on his Israeli policy, rather than correcting now, while he still has time. Again, there is zero benefit to the US for him to hold his current position.
So Biden literally has no agency to change one stance that is overwhelmingly unpopular with young voters, many of whom are threatening not to vote for him over this issue?
When an equal or greater number of voters believe he's doing the right thing, or needs to do more for Israel, and young voters are notoriously unreliable? In terms of political calculus, this is not a clear-cut strategic decision.
I’ve seen so many excuses for why voters should feel they personally failed democracy if they don’t vote for Biden over his support for genocide, but not a single one of you have offered a reason why Biden should hold course on his Israeli policy, rather than correcting now, while he still has time. Again, there is zero benefit to the US for him to hold his current position.
He's in a lose-lose situation. Either way he loses votes, unless the anti-Israel sentiment accelerates even more. My opinion is that in a lose-lose situation, you should take the moral loss and not the immoral one - so I'm entirely in favor of cutting Israel off.
But if Biden doesn't change his position on Israel, despite voicing some responsiveness to current protests, he's still better, and yes, including for the Palestinian people, than Donald Trump. And realistically speaking, it's one of those two old fucks that's going to be president.
When an equal or greater number of voters believe he’s doing the right thing, or needs to do more for Israel, and young voters are notoriously unreliable? In terms of political calculus, this is not a clear-cut strategic decision.
If young voters don't turn out for him in similar numbers as they did the last election, he's likely lost anyway. He's running a campaign on a knife edge, and alienating a demographic that was essential for his last win, which is a dumb move. Support for Israel tracks heavily with age, which coincidentally, tracks pretty decently with the likelihood to vote Republican, so there's a good portion of this block that were never going to vote for him to begin with.
But if Biden doesn’t change his position on Israel, despite voicing some responsiveness to current protests, he’s still better, and yes, including for the Palestinian people, than Donald Trump. And realistically speaking, it’s one of those two old fucks that’s going to be president.
No, it's just competing on degrees of awfulness. This is like saying you're going to fall victim to one of two murders; the first one will flay you alive and let you die of infections once they set in, while the second will shoot you 3 times in the face and make sure you're dead within ten minutes. You're arguing the first one is better because they prolong the agony, but the outcome is the same either way.
I'll be nice and assume you're just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
You just go around spamming the same comment? When you vote for Biden the blood is now on your hands too.
Why not you just go around spamming the same nebulistic nonsense, without providing any actionable advice and promoting voter apathy. As far as I'm concerned you're a big part of the problem.
This account literally posted the same "Found the genocide supporter" comment under one of my comments in another thread when i called out a disgenuous user.
Cant even make up that level of projection. As if my hatred of the apartheid state wasnt the only consistent view ive held for the past 15 years or so. But, u know, better reduce nuanced position into something more easily digestable to discourage the youth on this platform from keeping the fascist out of office.
Lots of people on this platform support genocide like yourself. Maybe you should reflect on why that is and how you can change yourself to not be a literall fucking nazi.
Why should they change their comment when the comment remains correct and unsuccessfully assailed?
They're repeating the comment because it's still right. This is called consistent messaging
Israel committed a far bigger land grab under Biden than under Trump
Israel’s largest land seizure since Oslo Accords deals fresh blow to Palestinian statehood
Biden rejects the Palestinian UN application
US vetoes widely supported resolution backing full UN membership for Palestine
Genocide Joe lies that israel isn't committing war crimes so he can send them more bombs to commit Genocide with
Leaked U.S. Memos Say Israel May Be Violating International Law In Blocking Gaza Aid
Trump cannot be worse for Palestine than Biden. Biden fully supports full Genocide of all Palestinians. Accusing opponents of Biden of being Zionist agents is top tier irony.
Strange how the people the jump in to question my motives are always those that actively defend israel.
"If you disagree with me, you like it when children are killed. "
Hmm who's normally making that argument?
Not republicans. That's definitely for sure.
Guys it's perfect. All you have to do is pretend that a) you're a Biden voter so you have credibility and b) you care about Palestinians. Anyone who questions you can instantly be considered a bloodthirsty racist monster. We can turn thousands of voters against Biden and all we have to do is pretend to give a fuck about these people. It's genius actually!
Collapses into a pile of furious masterbation
Edit: I responded to the wrong drone but everything but the Biden voter part here still applies
Voting does make you complicit in the things the candidate has said they will do. For example, if the candidate says “I will get rid of abortion” then voting for them means you are partially responsible if they actually do get rid of abortion. Or if they say “I will kill all the gays” or “I will lock up all non-Christians” then don’t act all surprised pikachu face when it happens.
It’s not a blood pact, but it’s not a football game either where you’re just rooting for your team. You have to weigh the consequences of casting a vote for someone and decide if you can live with the possible outcomes and/or pick the lesser of two evils.
If you don't pick the lesser of two evils, you're saying you're okay with the greater.
Man, the famed revolutionary Robespierre once said, "To rule innocently is insanity." He was wrong about numerous other things, but he fucking nailed that on the head. There are no good decisions in positions of power. If you fail oh-so-nobly, the nobility of your fall and refusal to compromise with your ideals isn't going to save a single goddamn person, and there's a good goddamn chance it'll kill many, many more. Every decision has costs in the lives of innocent people, and there is no abstention from that that is anything more than giving license to the currently-occurring trends happening.
In a democracy, we share power. The more democratic the society, the more power is shared - and the power that is shared also comes with responsibility for what that power does. The modern US is less democratic than it should be, but it's much more democratic than pre-Enlightenment societies - or prior incarnations of the US, for that matter. We all have blood on our hands, because we all have a share of the decision-making power.
We must choose the option that improves things to most - or damages things the least - to the best of our ability, whether in voting, organizing, protesting; all of it. And abrogation of that decision-making responsibility in any area is not abrogation of guilt; it is acceptance of the worse of the results.
I think the best analogy I've heard had compared voting to transportation. If you're at the office and want to go home, there probably isn't a train that goes directly to your front door. So you get on the train heading in the right direction, and maybe at the end of that line you still need to take a bus and walk a couple blocks, but that's how you ultimately get where you want to go. Otherwise you're going to be in the same spot waiting for a perfect train that's not coming.
So you get on the train heading in the right direction
This assumes any trains will get you closer to your destination.
Yeah this is what I called out in my other comment. The pathetically stupid idea that anyone not simping for trump loves genocide
I'm voting for Biden. I get that you want to cast any opposition to genocide as simping for your close second choice, but it ain't so.
Biden should stop supporting genocide, even if though that will lose him your vote.
Goddamn, that last paragraph speaks to me. I grew up in a little purple oasis surrounded by a desert of deep, deep red, and the idea that there are all these people just WAITING for a REAL LEFTIST to come along, whose ideas they'd all agree with and overwhelmingly vote for, because they only vote GOP because they don't believe Dems are GENUINE about SUPPORTING THE WORKERS is just...
... neither my experience nor supported by polling, nor supported by electoral results.
A lot of people have dogshit beliefs. A lot of work has to be done before they'd even consider voting for someone other than the fucking fascist party.
It's the end result of leftists circling the drain in ever-tighter bubbles after a decade of ostracizing anyone not pure enough in their beliefs. At their core, a lot of leftists are convinced that moderates don't exist, much less that they're the vast majority of people.
That resonates so well. Wish I had it when I was arguing with some idiot who was claiming that voting can't accomplish anything ever.
I blocked them after a while so I can't get their username, but if you check my latest comments you'll see them.
I'm this scenario, voting is just wasted time and energy. At worst, it's pretending you have any kind of control over your conditions.
Objectively false.
Never forget the recent case of Kris Mayes, who refuses to uphold the Arizona supreme court’s sweeping ban of abortion. Kris Mayes only won her 2022 election by 280 votes. Voting changes things.
literal on-the-ground example of 3.5 million women’s rights being protected
“anecdote”
be so fucken for real.
literally ask yourself: what kind of evidence would you require to disprove your foregone conclusion? you are deceiving yourself. the definition of bad faith, and i don’t take that term lightly. quite disturbing to see.
I directly attacked your argument. I actually think you're pretty cool being the same guy who updated a comment with an extra source since snopes got snoped a decade ago.
I have a very strong suspicion that votes are just something the ruling class points at so we go after each other rather than them. It all reads like allegory meant to sway our opinions to are with their methodology.
Voting does sort of make you complicit, honestly.
But guess what? Not voting also makes you complicit. So does voting in a way that has no chance of having an effect based on the current rules.
Basically, existing as an eligible voter, at least in a country where voting isn't rigged (so like, Russians are off the hook here, for example) makes you complicit in your government's actions.
That's kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.
And if you don't like that responsibility, I get it, I totally sympathize, because I agree. I hate that responsibility, especially cause I know damn well I'm not qualified to make those decisions. But I still am responsible, and pretending I'm not doesn't change that.
eh, im with you but i dont really like the overapplication of the word complicit.
i much prefer the model that we are a bunch of individuals doing our best to organize against systematic murder. but yes thank you for your corroborating comment :)
I'm not responsible. I'm the the horse they ride in on. If fuck me too, what am I gonna do about it?
Paying taxes seems to put us all in the wrong.
This is straight horseshit. The only reason I could be possibly be considered complicit is that I haven't shot those fuckers, and well, that's frowned upon.
Not voting also makes you complicit
What if I vote for someone you don't like, though? Say, by endorsing a third party or spoiling the ballot with a write in?
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.
Police officer bludgeoning student protestor with a truncheon
"WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS, CITIZEN!"
at least in a country where voting isn’t rigged (so like, Russians are off the hook here, for example)
So we're all off the hook, then?
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society
You don't live in a democratic society.
Everywhere
Tell me where you live and I'll show you how anti-democratic the society you live in really is.
Up for this challenge?
the anti-democratic nature of germany.
Gee... what a challenge! I'm going to be completely stumped by this one, eh?
But just before I do the little surrender dance, we have to... you know - dot the i's and get the paperwork right, okay?
You did get to vote on who it is that manages you at your job, right?
Oh, not at all.
We are absolutely getting to the heart of the matter... and no amount of liberal pearl-clutching is going to change that.
I take it the answer is a definite no?
But this was not what the Original Comment was about...? This is not about society as a whole, but rather, well, the nation we live in being ruled in a certain way. A government for the people, by the people, seems pretty democratic to me.
And Yes, I know there's problems. I know one's job often isn't managed in a democratic fashion (although that does exist, mind you). I know there's corruption and misinformation and whatever else, but at the end of the day, my vote counts. And so does everyone else's.
This is about as simple as it gets - you either live in a democratic society or you don't.
If it's a case of the former it doesn't matter how hard and for how long political racketeers and their media cronies have shoved a buzzword down your throat, does it now?
Whenever people express the sentiment that we need Biden to put his foot down on genocide I'm always for it.
But then when you ask them what they want to do it always becomes some nebulous Republican rhetoric about how Trump's not that bad.
Yes we need the genocide to stop, Trump will not accomplish that, he will make it worse.
We can pressure Congress and continue to protest because it needs to stop.
The past eight years have been such a strong argument for ranked choice voting.
yep. either the nebulous version or its evil unveiled sibling “well maybe leftists will mobilize more if we let another maga win happen/voting is about holding them accountable so let’s fire brandon 🤓”
mfs out here acting like the overton window doesn’t exist
What the actual fuck? They are pretty clear what they want. ONE we stop giving weapons to isreal. TWO we stop getting in the way of a cease fire. THREE we start giving humanitarian aid to trapped Palestinians. FOUR we cooperate with The Hague on what evidence we have on isreal war crimes.
These are things we could do without much effort that would have immediate impact on both stopping the genocide and boosting his numbers.
I get we want “our strategic ally in the Middle East” but maybe if we stop doing all the war crimes and genocide we wouldn’t need to write a blank check to Israel every-time they run out of genocide juice. If our status as an ally to isreal is contingent on what we are doing, we are not an ally we are being used.
It seems this thread pops up every time Fox News talks about Biden’s slipping numbers. The disillusionment of the left is real. And calling them out and saying “but trump!” Is not going to convince them, it’s not like they forgot.
If they complain about Biden being complicit in genocide. Now the time to do it. And it’s up to them if they follow through with their threat, and it’s up to Biden if he’s willing to risk it
I'm not asking what Biden could do, I'm very clear on what he could do.
What I'm saying is what we as individuals could do to pressure them realistically.
You're failing to recognize the inherent biases of the voting system, we all know that our system favors a two party outcome. Which is to say it's a statistical improbability for anyone except for the two most popular parties to win.
This isn't just my opinion this is well known statistical fact with many years to back it up.
This puts us in the awkward place of choosing the least bad candidate, Obviously pressuring Biden isn't working and I'm not happy about it.
But when we consider our vote we have to consider more than just the situation in the middle East, something that the Republicans don't even want to fix.
That's why I think it would be better to pressure Congress and to push for ranked choice voting and to continue to protest.
Because at least rank choice voting would allow us to vote for a better option rather than the least bad option.
You fell into the same trap, no actionable advice to the individual.
You will never, short of a violent revolution, EVER get Congress to pass ranked choice voting. That would dilute both parties power. Preventing you from having a meaningful choice is the only true bipartisan effort. And democrats have already said they would veto any primary vote on candidate when they wish. And have stood in the way of states enacting ranked choice voting on a state level.
Also you might convince accelerationists to not follow through with the threat of not voting or voting trump. But unfortunately that is probably the smallest fraction of those disillusioned. Most normally never vote, and a bunch feel the system is broken and feel betrayed by Biden. It takes effort to get these voters, and Biden has unfortunately done less then nothing. Well other then holding excusing college debt over peoples heads to enact piece meal whenever his number take a dip.
Truly Biden has to do something to galvanize his base, because it’s looking grim
You might be right, Biden could very well lose. It's an important issue he has not taken enough action on.
Reactionairies and single issue voters are a part of every political system, problem is that the opposition is status quo.
My only issue is that a large part of our base here on Lemmy who should know better than to promote apathy and accelerationism
To be clear I don't necessarily blame them it's hard to be pragmatic in times like these but things can always get worse and if we're not careful they will.
I'm even up for a violent revolution. What I'm not up for is an apathetic slide.
Its a very hard pill to swallow when on one hand Biden is supporting genocide by giving weapons to Israel, on the other hand we are dragging our feet on giving weapons to Ukraine and Biden seems to not be bothered. And in the most pragmatic terms, Ukraine is fighting the world’s most successful proxy war against our direct enemy. That started to lose ground once we started withholding our support. And on the third hand Biden is supporting big oil when he promised to not do that.
On top of all that, i know that if Biden remains as president the next election cycle will have another trump, and it will again be “we can’t campaign on your interests! Its an election year with the literal incarnation of evil”! And we will continue to shift the Overton window rightward.
These posts resonate with me because i wake everyday and question if i should still vote for Biden. And these posts do not make it easy to say yes.
He's been pro-giving weapons to Ukraine Congress had dragged their feet but that's not the point.
You should vote whoever best represents your interests. If no candidate does then find the next best option.
If you want to start a violent revolution in support of Ukraine, Palatine, more aggressive environmental targets etc. I'll be the first in line but I will never condone reactionary voting/apathy. All it does is make the system worse.
I appreciate that. But bread and circuses still hold more sway than the need for change. And just to be clear. A vote for Biden is still apathy, just a slower decline than the Republican flavor. I see no way to vote ourselves out of this tantrum spiral we are in.
When Fox News does another gloating over Biden’s further slipping numbers, let’s skip the part where we blame the disenfranchised voters, yea?
I get we want “our strategic ally in the Middle East”
Oh absolutely. Can't risk Egypt setting market rates on Suez Traffic. We'll support endless genocide to prevent that.
Democrats claim to be the good guys but can't stop themselves from engaging in this massive faschie disinformation campaign about anyone left of genocide Joe. I've not seen a single user in leftist forums saying we should vote Trump for "acceleration" but I can't fucking escape it being thrown around as a consistent fact by dems.
Same with how they can't call a third party vote a "third party vote," its always a "spoiler" or "protest vote," (when they aren't outright lying and claiming anyone not voting Biden is actually not voting and advocating for others to not vote.)
Turns out, if you need leftists to win you should probably stop telling them to eat shit and lying about them at every fucking turn. I'm no political expert but 🤷♂️
The president isn't the entire government there are other places you can put pressure. I'm not saying what's happening is right, I'm not saying that you should vote for him.
If you are moral compass won't allow you to align yourself with Joe Biden I completely understand that.
You have to acknowledge the reality that by dying on that hill you choose the other option whether you mean to or not. We should be rioting the streets to change it but it is the way it is.
It is more complex than that because of things like unequal vote distribution but more or less that's what it boils down to.
"If you don't vote blue no matter who its actually your fault"
No, it's Democrats fault for consistently and firmly moving right time and time again to court ""centrists"" as they tell me as a voter to shut the fuck up , tell me "no we won't consider your positions," and flat out lie about me and my positions to villify me in the eyes of establishment voters.
I didn't say any of that, I sincerely don't care who you vote for or if you even vote.
All I'm saying is in the system as currently implemented, choosing not to vote or to ignore the two party bias is still a vote for one of the two.
Please do not put words in my mouth.
But then when you ask them what they want to do it always becomes some nebulous Republican rhetoric about how Trump’s not that bad.
I tend to see "we need to pull Biden to the left" pitched as a solution, right up until it means doing anything to impede Biden's political agenda.
Don't vote for him? You're MAGA.
Don't donate to him? You're MAGA.
Don't block walk for him? You're MAGA.
Say anything critical of him on the Internet? Russian Bot Chinese Wumao Republican Traitor Why Do You Hate America?!
I saw the same thing from Republicans in 2004. "We're at war so any kind of dissent means you're with the terrorists!"
And it worked for Bush. He got another four years out of the hysteria. Maybe it'll work for Biden, too.
I don't think anyone here is equating not voting for Biden to being a Trumpet but due to the reality of our voting system absence of a vote is in and of itself a vote so you have to decide your best option whatever that may be.
Problem is the opposition has the same or worse policies on Palestine and worse policies on a lot of others.
I'm not a fan of this "least bad option" we've got ourselves into either but to equate the two parties or to deny the reality before us is how we allow it to get worse.
due to the reality of our voting system absence of a vote is in and of itself a vote
Sure. Although, I might go one step further and argue that due to the reality of our voting system (state-by-state winner-take-all) merely being counted in the census in a given district is what really counts as a "vote". The electoral college doesn't care who you vote for, only who won the majority. One of the fundamental flaws of western disproportional representation is how minority voters are functionally unrepresented.
Problem is the opposition has the same or worse policies on Palestine
This isn't a problem unique to the US. We routinely see elections caged and captured by dominant political parties with overlapping beliefs, from Japan to France to India. When you're being funneled into a single awful policy, there's little point in debating over which party is better on an issue that receives wide bipartisan support.
"You have to vote for Joe Biden to end the holocaust in Palestine" comes across as utterly tone-deaf, given that Biden's Democrats have been actively enabling said holocaust through arms sales, foreign policy, and willful neglect of international law.
I’m not a fan of this “least bad option” we’ve got ourselves into either
Nobody is. But the endless apology for said "bad option" purely on the grounds that "other guy is worse" only reinforces the badness of the first guy. You're cutting your own team a blank check to rob you when you won't even entertain a third option.
That's before we even get into the futility of voting (D) in a state like Ohio or Florida or Texas (or California or New York or Washington) when the outcome of these elections is all but predetermined. The absolute least you can do is to follow the lead of those Arab/Persian communities in the Midwest and spoil some ballots to demonstrate your dissatisfaction.
Say what you will about "least bad options" but as soon as Biden watched 20% of his Minnesota support evaporate in the face of united Muslim dissident, he did actually start to bend on the issue. Had a more serious left-wing contender been on the ticket, perhaps we would have even seen a primary upset in 2024.
On the flip side, I can't help but note how far-right Evangelicals have bent the GOP on issues by throwing their support to a guy like Trump, when more traditional DeSantis / Christie / Hailey hacks insisted on triangulating between business liberal and social conservative issues.
At some level, you can't ignore the success right-wing radicals have achieved by holding their ground and threatening the success of the party by withholding their support. Moderate Republicans - who just vote for anyone with an (R) in their name because they're scared of Democrats - are the ones getting sidelined by the party leadership. Why should progressives fall into the same trap set by conservative Democrats?
Correct on all counts, no arguments here.
I also don't care what people vote for, only dislike when people encourage someone not to vote or worse accelerationism.
There are a lot of problems with our political system, inaction makes all of them worse.
only dislike when people encourage someone not to vote or worse accelerationism
Accelerationism has always been more cope than strategy.
I've always held that spoiling your ballot is far more effective than simply not voting. But I would also argue that we do a lot of deliberate disenfranchisement, particularly in reactionary states and cities. So if people are getting the sense that voting is futile (or even dangerous), I'm sympathetic to that view.
This reminds me of the trolley problem. One candidate wants to kill five people, the other "only" wants to kill one person. No matter what you do, it is guaranteed that one of them will get elected and kill at least one person - but if you try to use your vote to make the lesser evil slightly more probable - you are suddenly complicit.
Even worse - if the kill-one-person wins and kills that person, the kill-five-people candidate' supporters will be the ones to hold the kill-one-person voters accountable for it. Their candidate would have killed more people, but because he lost the elections he was not able to kill anyone, which somehow makes voting for him more ethical?
You fail to mention the economic status or skin color of the potential victims.
Realistically the kill-five-people Candidate would have explicitly stated that they'd select the "correct" victims for their supporters to rally behind.
Whereas the kill-one-person Candidate would deny wanting to kill anyone in particular, so when it happens everyone is mad, even if their victim is a member of the "other" their opponent explicitly said they'd kill.
Wow that is a mess, but I can't think of a better way of putting it.
You fail to mention
I did not fail to mention - I chose not to do it. The point of the trolley problem is not to find reason why killing the one person is not really that bad and why killing the five people is so much more terrible than what a simple multiplication implies. The point is to ask if its worth to end up with the greater evil just so that you can tell yourself that you are not complicit.
Something I've come to realize in the past few years is that blame and responsibility are just lies that we tell ourselves and each other. There are only our actions, what we can reasonably expect the results to be, and what the actual consequences are. Even if you're not "responsible" for something, if you know you can prevent it, and choose not to, you have chosen for that thing to happen.
That's an excruciatingly tortured metaphor. Are you implying that killing only one person instead of five could be worse depending on everyone's skin color or economic status? Or that it's worse to kill one person if the candidate tries to deny killing them?
Rereading your post. You're either saying that or adding nothing to the conversation.
The amount of controversy is this thread is a dead giveaway that some fuckery is going down.
Luckily the amount of actual engagement shows its all just manufactured and there is no real consensus. Anyone forming an opinion based on discourse in this thread needs to step back and interface with real, actual, protesters.
The amount of controversy is this thread is a dead giveaway that some fuckery is going down.
Yep, pushing the bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe LoL aMiRiTe WhY bOtHeR vOtiNg narrative is cheap and easy "divide and conquer" propaganda.
In recent history, one side has been shown to benefit over and over again from lack of overall voter engagement - the fascists... I mean republicans, sorry, Freudian slip there.
Voting to keep out an anti-science, anti-education, anti-democracy political cancer = Moral inferiority.
Doing NOTHING and therefore giving the anti-science, anti-education, anti-democracy political cancer the keys to the kingdom to turn it into a gigantic toilet with all of us in it = Moral superiority!!!
You can go into any other left leaning thread on lemmy and it's crickets. Not even a stray trumpet to say mum.
You go into a Isreal/Palestine thread and it's a regular dumpster fire.
I'm not saying left leaning people are always on the same side of every issue but in general they are mild mannered and mindful of others. These threads are knock down drag out fights where 100 times some one is accused of supporting genocide when the actual number of people participating in the thread who support genocide is 0. 1-2 maybe if you consider the bad faith actors.
Who you vote for says a lot about what your priorities are and what your moral compass is willing to tolerate for what you see as the "greater good." When you vote for someone, you may not agree with everything they stand for but you absolutely do believe that overall what they stand for is more closely aligned with your political goals than the alternatives.
It doesn't really reflect that much on you. Like, if my choices were Putin or Pol Pot, I don't think voting for Putin would say much about my moral compass. Obviously not voting would feel nicer, but feeling nice doesn't help much when the national average life experience drops to the mid teens.
Equating trump and biden is dishonest. Both in terms of what the average american experiences and at a distant policy level.
Saying "I dont care about things that dont immediately impact me" also says a lot about someones' moral compass and where their priorities are. There is no belief that doesnt say SOMETHING about a person.
Yeah, if this guy had voted for pol pot over putin (or the other way around, idk my instinct says pol pot was way worse.) It would absolutely say something about them as a person.
I have a feeling that the people who upvote this meme hate "trump voters" because of their complicity.
The difference is that Trump's supporters actively supported his administration, and have been working to push him even further right. Biden doesn't have the kind of cult of personality and worship Trump has, people willing to storm the capitol to keep him in power, against the democratic will of the people.
I thought of a few ways to respond to this, but I think I'll just let your comment stand as-is. It's a good encapsulation of the mindset, thanks.
I do think there's a nuance to "I voted for this guy, I don't really want him but it's the best option on the list" And "I like this guy, I liked what he did, I'd like to see him do it again"
I hear (in real life), absolutely 0 Biden supporters like example #2. I hear (in real life) about 10 trump supporters like #2. Of the people I ask who are Republicans that don't fall into #2, they instead say something along the lines of "I don't like abortion and I don't think democrats are protecting my rights". Of the Republicans I've met that I talk to on a semi regular basis, those people make up maybe 20% of all interactions I have. The rest..well, MAGA
Voters are not complicit in individual policies, but they are complicit in the broad differences in outcomes that are easily predicted. Trump is, by any sane metric, the greater evil by far, so Trump voters are complicit in bringing more evil to the world.
The choice to vote for a viable candidate rather than a non-viable one doesn't make anyone complicit in an outcome they couldn't realistically vote to prevent. Anyone who thinks a candidate other than Biden or Trump can win in November is delusional.
No, actually. I view most of the American populace, and indeed the planet's, as an exploited, disadvantaged proletariat. The folks watching Faux News for 50 years never stood a chance. I so not hate them for it. Theyre still Americans, and I still need to go to work with them, and live in the same society as them. Ive gotten many meager and not so meager gains with righties over the past 5 years. If one of them recants on any one piece of bullshit they formerly believed in, than that is one more piece of bullshit they are not further propagating to their peers, or, more importantly, their children.
I believe that the ideal society is one free from hierarchy. How can I hate anyone for being brainwashed if I truly believe we are meant to be classless?
Always punch up, never down.
Solid take, but have you seen the other replies? A bunch of liberals explaining that trump voters are complicit is "totally OK because it's so different!" I took this meme to be another castigation of leftists saying they would not vote for Biden because he's responsible for killing more than 30k civilians in Gaza - our daily vote blue no matter who reminder. Thus any vote for Biden makes you NOT complicit in genocide because it's not a blood pact, so please vote blue. Yet they will immediately turn around and claim that any vote for Trump IS in fact a blood pact and makes you complicit. It just gets exhausting.
"Leftists" are the Zapatistas in Spain who state as one of their core tenets improving material conditions in the transitory state until the utopia they crave comes into being. If u are a leftist, you will vote for damage control. Voting for the lesser of two evils is not the endorsement of its own evil actions bc the alternative is utter madness. To abstain from voting, to spoil ones vote, these are actions which support the greater of two evils.
When presented with a chouce between lesser evil, and far greater evil, it is not unconscionable to choose the lesser evil, but it is evil outright to choose the greater evil.
To tie into to my initial point, will those who abstain or spoil their votes have my hatred? No! They are merely an exploited proletariat whos actions have been influenced by the enormous web of influence of foreign adversaries as well as our own domestic fascists. I will pity them instead, but I will also reiterate that much like the action of voting for trump is an evil action, their own actions will also be evil, even if they themselves are not evil, but merely misguided.
How can Biden not be the greater evil? Biden is directly responsible for the deaths of so many. To not prevent the further deaths of innocent Palestinians, especially when the cost would be to simply NOT provide weapons to Israel is unconscionable. Isn't believing that voting for Biden would improve material conditions madness, when he has shown time and time again that he does not desire peace, but the furtherance of the military-industrial complex no matter what?
Nuance is about subtlety. Nothing here is subtle.
There are clear differences between destroying the planet by eating meat and driving a car and supporting the guy with Mein Kampf on his nightstand who publically Idealizes Dictators.
I'm shocked! Are you telling me there are people in real life with whom you can have nuanced conversation?!
literally Labour and Liberal in Australia, people have such little critical thinking skills that almost everyone i know either votes for one of the two, either its for welfare or for "freedom!", nothing else ever. no wonder we have policies most genuinely disagree with...
Fundementally it's perfectly valid to take a position that a system is so irredeemable that you cannot participate, but instead believe it must be torn down instead of adding legitimatecy to it. Sometimes that protest achieves something and sometimes it doesn't. It is a kantian ethics stance that you'd have to work a lot harder to invalidate than the cursory anger that folks spew out on Lemmy.
If a vote acknowledges the legitimacy in someone's view of a genocidal government, I think it's fine for them to protest against it. I'm not personally of that stance, but I don't doubt many have sincerely held beliefs.
fundamentally, someone is going to end up in that seat anyway and you are flaunting your privelage by ditching the only right you have to make change to save the livelihoods of your neighbors.
some of us don’t have the luxury of “sitting back and watching it all burn.” but carry on. your protest is certainly worth more in the short and long run than the individuals who the opposition has promised to wreak death on today.
"Anyone to the left of my enlightened lib stance is either a bot, right wing agent, or communist Chinese agent."
So, funny story...
Also, Orwell was literally a cop serving the British occupation of Myanmar.
If he was familiar with corrupt politicians, theiving, and traitors, it was through very first hand experience.
This would be true-ish if there wasn't a huge power imbalance and the massively powerful government didn't manipulate the voters each with a tiny spec of power.
The only opinion I can come to about the conflict is "God this is all so fucked that it shuts me down mentally"
It's weird that all the "genocide Joe" posters I've seen lately have all been coming from lemmnsfw.com.
Anyway. Let's reframe this like a trolley problem.
Imagine you are Biden, you have zionists in your party in both houses, zionists in the DNC, zionists among your donors as well as an array of people with vested interests in the military industry.
Now you can either try and hard line aid to Israel, get completely dicked on by the entire party, lose donors to the Trump campaign and make an already uncomfortablely tight race even worse for yourself and potentially hand Trump the presidency who in turn gives Israel the go ahead to wipe Palestine off the map. Knowing that even if you don't give Trump the win Israel won't stop their genocide.
Or you can just work in soft pressure, keep your keys to power happy and make what difference you can by doing stuff like sending aid that doesn't piss off the zionists and maybe save the Palestinians from a Trump backed Israel?
The hell it doesn't. You're being spoiled children, so we talk to you like you're being spoiled children.
I'm "spoiled" for being unwilling to support genocide...
Jesus, do you people ever listen to yourselves? Like, go ahead and say that aloud to yourself "Refusing to support genocide is spoiled". Sit with it a second and really mull over what kind of person says that kind of thing.
Talking down is literally the only rhetorical trick you have, because you know you have no morally defensible position.
because you know you have no morally defensible position.
There is no morally defensible position at all. That's fucking life sometimes.
You would understand this if you weren't a spoiled child.
You have blood on your hands no matter what choice you make. Thinking you can sit it out and have your conscience be clean is what's childish. If Trump is elected, and kills more Gazans even faster, and sanctions the killing of more gay and trans people, that blood is on your hands for standing by and letting it happen.
Grow the fuck up and choose the option for less blood.
When the American Empire implodes (hopefully soon) and a thousand years pass and an enlightened civilization is looking back on us with all your "nuance" weathered down, I don't want my name to be thrown on a list of people who voted for genocide. No democracy worth saving would've ever had its most important vote of our lifetimes ever for the fate of the world come down to Vanilla or Orange Sherbet flavored fascism. We are at the logical end of the American Experiment.
Well, if I were a betting woman, I'd say your name isn't going to be remembered at all, so you can probably safely stop using that as an excuse for apathy.
I'd say your name isn't going to be remembered at all,
Great! Yours will be remembered for generations as the lady who voted for the genocide of brown kids across the world :)
Whereas you enabled the genocide of even more kids all across the world, as well as minorities here at home. How moral.
Assuming the American political project lasts 30 more years, when you're voting for the candidate who argues for 5 genocides instead of 10, it will hopefully start to become very clear the leftist position that liberals will always eventually fall in line with fascism.
Leaving aside the fact that you seem to think historians will care about individual voters, this election is, unfortunately, about more than Israel. It's also about LGBTQ+ people, women, the environment, Ukraine, and not having a rapist thief who has admitted to ambitions of dictatorship in office. So if voting makes you complicit in every single thing a politician does, then sitting idly by and not caring if Trump wins would put a lot of blood on your hands, in the US and abroad, including in Gaza. Your smug superiority does nothing to protect those people and may harm a lot of others.
Cool, your name will be thrown on a list of people who enabled even more genocide than those who voted for less genocide. Thanks for having more blood on your hands, I guess.
Inaction isn't action. Stop trying to force your guilty conscience on me. Every Palestinian killed by by Israel was murdered with the full support and backing of the president we both (presumably) voted for in 2020, where we seem to differ is that I'm not going to have that blood on my hands when that genocider wants to ask for a fucking second turn at office.
genuinely asking here as im trying to understand our differences: if trump gets another win then does exactly as he promised and basically nukes millions of palestineans, you won’t feel any guilt at all for allowing this to come about unchecked?
and yet you would feel the full burden of guilt if a lesser degree of murder came from biden?
like do you see the irony here? inaction is action. you are watching a burning wreck and choosing to stand by from my perspective.
Inaction isn't action
Unless you're dead, choosing not to vote is an action. Don't deny your own agency.
That might explain why suicide rates are at all time highs.
Also it's a bit ridiculous to be discussing the agency of a single individual voter in a post that sweeps Biden's agency under the rug. I'll happily accept my silver of responsibility as long as Biden gets a dump truck of responsibility.
Okay. Your state goes for Trump by a margin of one vote, for the sake of the argument. You and a comrade who refused to vote for that demon Joe Biden were the difference, and the state's electoral votes are enough to narrowly swing the election to Trump.
In this admittedly extreme scenario, would you and your friend bear responsibility for Trump then giving full shift to the Israelis to complete their genocide as well as murdering numerous minorities in the US and empowering authoritarian regimes abroad, including the genocide in Ukraine?
Or do you think that having the power to do something, and intentionally doing nothing, is some form of innocence?
But you should vote again because "orange man bad" and maybe this time the self proclaimed non-Jewish Zionist whose pockets are lined by Israili money won't commit genocide.
You know it's actually funny at this point. All of these people can go outside and find a protest. They're all over the country. Instead they're over here trying to guilt shame others into voting for a genocidal zionist. You wanna know why? It's because they don't care. That's what it all comes down to. Either through Israili propaganda or just through blatant racism they are convinced that the massacre is somewhat acceptable or at least not completely unacceptable. Therefore voting for Biden is still a viable option.
Exactly as you have said. My vote counts. Even if it doesn't make a difference. I would know. Every time a child dies in Gaza, I would know that I voted for this.
Expecting anything to change by voting for the same people is dumb as fuck. I'm expected to choose between a genocidal maniac and a fascist and somehow the dumbasses here think that they can "lesser evil" their way out of this.
Exactly as you have said. My vote counts. Even if it doesn’t make a difference. I would know. Every time a child dies in Gaza, I would know that I voted for this.
Cool, now when Israel annexes the West Bank and finishes the genocide with US jets flying sorties on Palestinian civilians, you can rest easy knowing that you supported that by sitting on your hands while a fascist took over your country.
Do you actually think Biden is better than Trump in any of this? He's the sitting president right now watching the genocide and we're sending them more money. You're making up hypothetical scenarios when what's happening is real. WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING IS HAPPENING RIGHT FUCKING NOW DURING BIDEN'S TERM.
Even in your stupid scenario I wouldn't care since I wouldn't vote for Trump. I'm not the one who put Biden in the ballot and I'm not the one insisting that he should be the candidate.
You reap what you sow. Did you protest against the genocide? No. Did you boycott any companies? No. Did you donate to any supporting cause (Jewish voice for peace etc.)? No. Did you contact your elected officials about this? No.
You could have helped stop this. You could still help stop this. But you don't. Instead you come here and try to guilt shame people with hypothetical scenarios when they're happening as we speak.
It all goes back to what I have said. You just don't care. So stop acting like you give a shit about Palestine. If a democracy wants me to choose between two genocidal maniacs, I'll enjoy watching it burn.
Do you actually think Biden is better than Trump in any of this?
... yes? Do... do you think Biden is worse than Trump on this, Trump, who has openly express support for the genocide of the Palestinians and a desire to increase assistance to Israel? Trump, whose inflammatory pro-Israel actions exacerbated this very conflict during his term? Trump, who broke even with prior Republican norms of restraint in support of Israel? Trump, who claimed that Jews who vote against Israeli interests are race traitors?
Are you fucking serious?
Even in your stupid scenario I wouldn’t care
Okay, great, so you don't actually care about the deaths of millions of Palestinians. Thanks for admitting it. Good talk.
You reap what you sow. Did you protest against the genocide? No. Did you boycott any companies? No. Did you donate to any supporting cause (Jewish voice for peace etc.)? No. Did you contact your elected officials about this? No.
This is intentionally deaf of you. I have protested genocide. I have participated in boycotts and advocated for divestment and sanctions. I have donated to supporting causes. I have contacted my elected officials. I have participated in the uncommitted movement to send a message direct to Biden.
One incredibly tiny portion of my action in support for Palestine will happen to be my vote to the presidential candidate who will commit less violence. Just one tiny piece to save lives.
But you won’t hear that will you? Your mind is totally made up. You’re not here to listen, but to cuss people out.
Do some interrospection. Have a good one.
If my vote doesn't influence the outcome of a genocide then I'm not sure what kind of responsibility a historian would actually place on me.
"Well a president in a democratic system willfully went against the interests of the voters while warning them that the other guy was worse. Biden was simply a victim in all of this and those truly responsible for the downfall of the United States were a handful of voters."
Hard for me to imagine anybody writing that and being taken seriously.
Do you actually think Biden is better than Trump in any of this?
Yes. A thousand times yes. How can anyone be so ignorant as to not think that?
lol I'm sorry. Go on and tell me how your law abiding protest between the hours of 1-3pm on a Sunday afternoon which ended early when someone complained about the noise changed anything.
