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Bonus points for his fans shouting about how he wasn't convicted so "He was totally cleared of all that, they're just jealous psychos!"
Because everyone knows sexual assault is notoriously well dealt with.
Speaking from general life experience, a lot of those fans are potential victims of the same treatment themselves minors/women
So if you have a child or friend that speaks like that, it is a red flag to pay closer attention to the people they build relationships with and their behavior. I'm not talking about protecting kids from drugs and sex, I mean protect them predators and abuse.
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True. I have a lot of friends who dated abusers AFTER they abused someone else, and parrotted the "his ex was a psycho and made it all up" line.
Sometimes the ex is a psycho, but like 99% of the time they aren't.
I mean, if none of the 35 allegations actually go anywhere, I'm not going to assume they actually did something either. Seems sus on all accounts.
Fool me one, shame on you, fool me 35 times shame on... that's really the stance you want to take? Seems sus alright, but trust and verify is for cold war movies.
If none of the accusations go anywhere then yeah that's a bit sus on the case of the accusers. I get that those things are hard to prosecute but 35 cases and nothing to show for it? Sus.
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If 35 different people say they were sexually assaulted by someone then the chances that all of them are untrue is miniscule.
And somehow none of them having nothing to show for it in court, hmm. I feel like that's less likely, considering how easy it is to accuse (especially anonymously). I guess it all depends on the what sort of accusations they are and how detailed, if the facts seem plausible etc. If it's 35 very credible accusations from people speaking out in their own name, uh oh, that sounds pretty bad. If it's 35 pretty vague seeming accusations on Twitter from anonymous accounts, ehh I'll definitely wait for something more concrete. And after all in court you'd only need one of them to succeed for all of them to seem credible, but with none of them succeeding, I'm starting to doubt the accusations.
Yeah. I find that a lot in very disparate genres, too. I pretty much have to look up anyone I like more than a little now.
Yeah, I had no idea until recently that Pogo is a misogynist and homophobe. He makes music videos from Disney movies ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, that one sucks. I really liked what he was doing, but... you know... those crazy South Africans.
It really comes down to ‘that’s the default setting for most of humanity.’
Here on Lemmy, we like to think we’re all very tolerant, enlightened, liberal minded people. But the outside world really isn’t quite as open minded. And there’s way more backwards troglodytes out there than we like to think.
Troglodytes you say? Hmm… sounds like a case for TROGDOOOOOOORRRR!!!!
BURNINATING THE COUNTRYSIDE, BURNINATING THE FASCISTS.. AND THEIR MUSHROOM COTTAGES!
I mean, he started out on YouTube with the name “Fa**otron”, that got my alarm bells ringing from the outset.
To be fair, a Fagott is the German/European name for this instrument:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassoon
Though I'd say it is pretty obvious why they named themselves that, and its probably not because they can play that thing.
Very important to note there is one "g" in fagott. The number of "t"s can vary by language, but it's always one "g".
I didn’t know that! Also looking up his old handle from another source does indeed confirm that his old handle used just one g.
Still fucking sus though. Especially as he’s a remix artist.
When I found out about the guy from Crystal Castles 10 years after the fact... Yea major bummer. Sucks he's a POS and the things he's done, and the cherry on top is now I can't enjoy their music again.
Fuck, I remember the news with Alice Glass’ allegations back when they came out, but I wasn’t aware there were others, and they were underage.
…oh no. I’ve listened to him for ages. And due to a shitty shuffle I ended up with high listening hours. I remember his first handle and just told myself it was regarding the slang for cigarette. I’ll be going down this rabbit hole, thanks for the heads up
Not metal, but Ghost Mice really shocked me. The guy was like "yeah I did that shit, sorry" and was just never seen again.
Rammstein isn't metal it's NDH. The Genre does have metal influence but you could just as well call it Industrial Punk (in particular in regards to Rammstein). There's plenty of groove metal in there if you know what to listen for but this doesn't sound anywhere close to Pantera.
And if Rammstein being a bunch of Punks with way too much artistic concept wasn't enough you have to literally ignore their Discography to think they're right-wing.
I know rammstein isn’t metal. Lots of people consider them metal though. And I didn’t say they were right wing, but the band did get in a lot of trouble in the last few years over sexually abusing people. A lot of people. That’s why I asked.
And I didn’t say they were right wing, but the band did get in a lot of trouble in the last few years over sexually abusing people
It was alleged that. What's true is that there were plenty of 0-row aftershow parties with plenty of drugs and sex involving Till. Which is problematic in itself but as it seems (if we take the state attorney's conclusions as gospel truth) nothing non-consentual went on. What's left is allegations by two women who, as far as I'm aware, never themselves filed criminal complaints (which would expose them to possible false accusation charges).
What I took away from the whole thing is that Till is a creepy yet decent hedonist and it's good that he's got pushback over his behaviour, but it's also not a thing he should be crucified for. He's not 20-something any more, he should understand iffy consent mechanics when it comes to 20-something groupies better at his age.
Sadly it is harder for me to take "He has allegations!" seriously because there are too many instances in modern days where Twitter went after people who had no real evidence against them or were found innocent...
People like Vinesauce Vinny who had his own sexual abuse scandal, and I know there were some FNF modders who were accused of being groomers, but then it kept turning out that they just made a sexual joke on Discord and the rumor mill just ran with it.... Oh and there was the scandal with Mandopony, but then two police investigations turned up nothing... Casting considerable doubt on the "evidence collected"
Admittedly I'm talking more about e-celebs, some metalhead douche who's been playing guitar since before people were expected to be able to define consent probably actually did that shit. I mean, shit, I remember when people blamed Janet Jackson when a completely different person took her top off live at the Super Bowl.... and no that wasn't the 80's, that was 2003, What I'm saying is the standards for women being blamed for what happens to them has changed for the better, so it's mostly the older celebs I hold in greater suspect.
Another thing I'm saying is that false accusations hurt real victims.
Went to a metal concert last year for a huge, well known band. The number of punisher/warrior, thin blue line, militia-styled ragged flag, Gadsden shirts and hats was off the charts.
In my younger days metal was anti-authoritarianism, anti-cop, anti-conformity… now these clowns are the ones who want to be holding the riot batons, the body armor, and support the very fascists we hated.
I got plenty of grey hair, the crowd around me didn’t so I’m thinking there’s a generational shift to metal going fascist.
Yeah, the meme rings pretty true.
Your comment reminds me of Metallica many years ago. Their first albums were really good I thought. Then they cut their hair, their music started to sound more mainstream and I heard from friends that the band kind apologized for the anti war lyrics on their earlier albums. I guess money talks in strange ways.
That’s the band.
Funny enough they still play those same anti-war songs off the early albums. Play what pays so they can ride around in their private jets.
Edit:
I did some digging. AJFA - One to most anyone objectively is about the horrors of war. The music video opens with the sounds and images of war. Lyrics say the war is done with the speaker in the story. It’s zero distance to understand that the person in the video suffered their wounds as a result of that war. The lyrics literally say a Landmine caused the wounds.
However, Hetfield walked back that imagery and the lyrics to mean:
In a Howard Stern Interview, James states that the song isn't inherently anti-war, but the lyrics were rather about the feeling of being trapped in your own body and feeling like you're unable to interact with the world around you and express yourself and speak your mind and feelings.
So it’s not an apology, he’s retconning the song to this instead of what pretty much everyone legitimately understood it to be about.
Also, regarding Don’t Tread On Me, what people associated with the Gadsden Flag:
Hetfield said the song was a reaction to the anti-American tone of their album ...And Justice for All - "This is the other side of that. America is a fucking good place. I definitely think that. And that feeling came about from touring a lot. You find out what you like about certain places and you find out why you live in America, even with all the bad fucked-up shit. It's still the most happening place to hang out."
Hetfield also said "Don't Tread On Me, I love the song, but it shocked a lot of people, because everyone thought it was pro-war when they thought we were anti-war, and alls we're doing is writing songs, we're not standing politically on any side. "Don't Tread On Me" was just one of those 'don't fuck with us' songs, and obviously referencing the flag and the snake and what it meant, that all tied into the black album and the snake icon on the album cover, and I think it's great to play that song live. We're over here in Europe playing it, and people aren't appalled by the songs. We haven't played it in Iraq or Iran yet, though."
It sounds a lot to me like Hetfield is softballing pandering to right wing fans he doesn’t want to offend and/or personal beliefs that lean Right. He completely disregards the obvious anti-war sentiment in AJFA with “Oh, you all thought we were anti-war? We’re not pro-war, we’re pro-America.” If that isn’t some Chauvanistic Nationalism I don’t know what is.
Anyway, I don’t know one way or the other, but considering the crowd’s fashion choices at the event and his unwillingness to just say “war is bullshit”, which you can do apolitically, I figure Metallica, or at least Hetfield, support right wing ideologies.
E2: another interview where Hetfield says why he left the Bay Area:
*There was an elitist attitude there that if you weren’t their way politically, their way environmentally, all of that, that you were looked down upon. *
So by inference and the preponderance of evidence, he’s probably right wing.
One is not about the horrors of war, Mr. Hetfield? The song you wrote with lyrics that include
Landmine has taken my speech, taken my sight, taken my hearing taken my arms, taken my legs taken my soul Left me with life in hell
I guess it was one of those civilian peacetime landmines?
You know you're in a room full of true metal heads when everyone has distinctly point to when metallica started to suck, especially if they all point to different albums.
Metallica died after Cliff died, that dude was the heart of the band. If you read up on Burton you'll find musical crossover with Martin of the great Faith No More.
In addition to 'One', don't forget the great 'Disposable Heroes'. Totally sold out with the Black Album and thereafter.
I remember them getting haircuts and piercings and everyone being like "wtf?"
That and the Lars/Napster stuff really soured them for me.
I know I'm not a "true metalhead" because I never cared about the culture, I only cared about the music. As far as I can tell, metallica still makes banger music. I am not an authority on this subject.
I'm not much of a metal head anymore but it was the first genre I was really into when I started developing my own taste in music.
They're not really for me but they're definitely still one of the biggest bands in the world with millions of fans and I'm not gonna tell all those people they don't have any taste in music you know? To each their own.
Lot of metal recently using racist ideology, etc. Sucks that anything with a Celtic or Viking design has a racist vibe behind it now
Right? Of all people our veterinarian wears a Mjölnir necklace…I had to do a triple take to make sure he wasn’t a supremacist asshole, but no, he’s a legit Norwegian who likes Nordic style in general. He wears a Dragestil belt with silver inlay, some tattoos too. Cool guy. Sad that my first thought was wondering if he was a nazi supremacist because the symbols have been usurped and corrupted.
As an Icelander who still practices the old customs this drives me nuts. These scum lack the basic imagination to come up with their own logos so they steal our symbols? Fuck that.
I just wish one of the Kardashians or some influencer would go big on Nordic symbology and bring it to the mainstream. Maybe it would lose its appeal to these fucks.
That's the thing, isn't it? All these extremists steal other people's stuff and corrupt it to their own purposes. Nazis did it. Religions did it. Supremacists are doing it with Nordic cultural symbols.
Yeah there are people who think (sterotypical) Vikings are their true "white" heritage and end up harassing anyone they don't like out of fanbases for viking-related bands. Heilung, for example, had to publicly state that those kind of people are not welcome after some of them were harrassing a woman for having the "wrong" skin color to be able to participate at one of their shows. These guys haven't yet figured out that their bigotry is the exact opposite beliefs of the vast majority of the pagan/viking/etc communities.
Is it bad that I find this reassuring? I love Heilung's music, but I've been too nervous to check out if they're Nazis. Now I don't have to worry.
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Speaking of which, does anyone know anything about Brothers of Metal's political position (or lack of)? They barely seem to have an online presence at all, like a ghost of sick riffs and cheesy viking costumes.
I find that whenever I go to metal shows, most people are very kind, polite and free of bigotry. Maybe what you're describing is a US thing, or maybe it's just that Metallica is a super mainstream band which attracts more dickheads than your average metal show.
I know metalheads have a history of gatekeeping, and keeping these fascists away from the scene should be priority #1.
I can only offer what I experienced at the show I attended. Metallica was touring with Five Finger Death Punch, a very much right-wing "military rock" band that just sucks IMO. They straight up dog whistled the right wingers in the crowd using a lot of "there's something wrong in this country" type of commentary. Metallica bringing them on tour doesn't really change my growing opinion that Metallica supports right wing ideology. My understanding of the greater Metal crowd is that they are indeed good people, I went to an Industrial Metal concert a few weeks back and it was free of the iconography I saw at the Metallica show, and everyone was great. We had a good time. It was also the loudest show I think I've ever been to. Thank goodness for earplugs, lol.
Sorry, but I just read "Five Finger Death Punch" and automatically thought "Ahhh there you go..." lol
I mean, Kirk Hammet literally wore swastika shirts back in the day. I used to be a huge Metallica fan boy when I was younger but eesh.
Yeah I think it was either before Metallica, or early days. I've tried to find a picture, but they've done a good job of scrubbing it from the Internet. I know my source is "trust me bro" at this point lol, but I swear I've seen it multiple times years ago
You’re right, it’s not to be found. Eh, after a little poking around they did a nazi salute, too. You can still see that image. Be willing to bet the swastika and salute were both “fuck you” for lols and not any personal affiliation.
E:typo
Which creates a space where people with personal affiliations get away with it and gather. And then when called out on their shit, tell the "for the lulz" crowd that people are coming for their freedom.
I've never understood the popularity of FFDP. "War is the Answer" is their best album by a heavy margin and it's just... Fine? Like it's listenable, I can listen to it without being bored. At the end of the day it makes me wish I was listening to Avenged Sevenfold, Shinedown, or Killswitch Engage.
But the rest of their music is unbelievably boring. Their covers of other people's music is their best work, probably because they can't write interesting music.
Sounds about right for James Hetfield. When off stage the dude is one of those Mossy Oak weirdos.
The clothing/camo? I’ve only ever seen him in California motorcycle kit - all black, Maltese crosses, flat-brimmed ball cap, etc.
Heh. Yeah I thought Metallica were anti "the man" when I was a teen but the Napster case showed me that they were the man
That's crazy, around here I saw a guy get his ass thrown out of a metal bar for having a burzum patch last month. They also forced a guy to either leave, invert his vest or remove a mayhem patch. The scene here is pretty intensely antifascist.
Considering the size of the crowd I don’t think anyone was throwing anyone out at the event I attended. I mentioned elsewhere that Five Finger Death Punch was part of the act, and they are absolutely right wing. Anyway, from the conversation here and the reading I did about Metallica/Hetfield, I’m forming the opinion that Metallica is different than the metal bands that everyone is talking about, partially because of their fame and visibility. They’re the rich old white men of Metal, and all the get off my lawn that goes with it.
Oh, I don't like metal and still considered them to be a mostly apolitical group of weird nerds. But it probably fits to the general trend of neonazis trying to infiltrate and overtake other subcultures. Oi! just doesn't draw large crowds I guess, probably Punk rock in general is not such a big thing anymore?
Some Punk went mainstream, but even then I think Punk still holds on to that anti-authority ideology better. Greenday's recent commentary on the Right Wing stirred things up a bit.
I was addressing that Neonazis usurped the Skinhead subculture for a long time. The skinhead subculture is part of the punkrock scene. Most of punkrock was always leftist though, at least here in Europe. I think you'll have to try hard to find a rightwing skinhead nowadays though. A switch towards Metal sounds like an almost natural thing for the neonazi scene. Metalfans should try their best to stop that or it might destroy the whole subculture.
Not too long ago it came to public attention that there were a lot of Republicans listening to Rage Against The Machine. Which is hilarious.
They don't seem to consider what anything means as long as it sounds white enough and has an angry enough tone.
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Depends on what wave of skinheads you're talking about. Skinheads emerged in the UK in working class urban communities in the late sixties. They were influenced by the early sixties mod scene, the Jamaican rude boy scene, a strong identity towards their working class roots that alienated them against the government and the then middle class hippie lifestyle. As they were in working class areas in urban Britain, they were also rubbing shoulders with working class black people who brought with them their West Indian music and dress style. Ska Music and reggae were big influences on the tastes of first wave skinheads. In this way, it's ironic that the second wave of skinheads in the late seventies and beyond got involved with fascist politics, considering its working class multicultural roots.
I'm not sure you can say that skinheads were an offshoot of punk, at least not the first wave of skinheads, as skinheads predate punk by nearly a decade. As I mentioned above, the first skinheads were interested in ska, reggae and other music from West Indian roots. They were more an offshoot of the early sixties mods, with added interest in black working class styles and music.
The second wave came around when punk was in the ascendency in the late seventies, and that is where Oi music is based on. But Oi and the second wave's interest in fascism is certainly not what skinheads were originally about. The birth of Oi was convenient in a way for the likes of the fascist National Front in the UK, who were heavily recruiting amongst the skinheads in the late seventies, as it pulled skinheads away from that "problematic" (for the fascists) black music. I mean, there'd be a conflict of interest if you're heavily influenced by black music and styles and yet want to "send the foreigners back where they came from". In many ways Oi was a betrayal of the skinhead scene.
It's a bit muddy, it's been a few years since the whole skinhead/punk thing was more closely related. I do remember that there wasn't much visual difference between Punks and Skinheads unless you got the Punks were wearing their full getup with mohawks and basically had hair, whereas the skinheads really didn't, obviously because "skinhead". I always associated skinheads with being racists or nazi-types, but they also (at least in my experience here) were also anti-authority and often leaned hard into anarchy, too. So definitely some overlap with Punk.
I have no idea about the skinhead culture these days in the US, or what it aligns itself with. Can't imagine anyone affording a pair of Doc Martens, and plus they're low quality chinese made now.
I don't know if there's anything to be done at this point. There were 80,000-ish in attendance for the sold-out Metallica show. The people wearing right-wing stuff were everywhere, plus flying right wing thin blue line and Gadsden flags while tailgating in the venue parking lot.
AFAIK in France skinhead and Neonazi are basically synonymes, but I'm not big on this subculture thing, and this probably depends by country/language. But please don't go there calling yourself a skinhead lol
Yeah, as I said "Neonazis usurped the Skinhead subculture" in the 80s. There have always been apolitical and left wing skinheads, though. Nowadays the Skinhead subculture seems to be mostly dead (the whole punk scene has declined massively) and the few remaining appear to be almost completly apolitical and left wing.
It makes sense that those types would join the punk /metal scene. It's a scene made up of those on the fringes of society who are rebelling against authority (regardless of what that authority may be) and who are willing to accept anyone like them.
I've met plenty of LGBT, geeks, on the spectrum and otherwise different folk who are part of the punk and metal scenes.
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I’ve met plenty of LGBT, geeks, on the spectrum, and otherwise different folk who are a part of the punk and metal scenes
Me too.
I was volunteering with an anarchist mutual aid group and one of the volunteers was wearing a punk war vest (idk if punks have their own term for it, I’m a metal head) with a variety of punk patches and queer buttons.
Maybe it’s just a symptom of only seeing shows in a city with a good radical scene, but most people I’ve met are completely normal and don’t have any concerning things like a punisher tattoo or a thin blue line shirt, etc.
It makes sense that those types would join the punk /metal scene.
They are since 40+ years, The skinhead subculture is part of the punk scene. And Neonazis usurped that subculture for a long time (not so much nowadays though).
To a lot of young people, myself included. The authority, or at least the authority we interact with- is progressive. So something like a thin blue line flag is rejecting that authority. Also the Gadsden flag has always been anti-authority.
I didn't say to everyone, I said to a lot of people that is the current dominant ideology from people in positions of authority that they interact with.
Yeah. To a lot of young, vulnerable people who are less minoritized, progressives feel like the authority. You're told you're privileged, but you don't feel it. This is partially because we take our personal experiences for granted, but also because even the relatively privileged struggle. Some people suffer more from the system than others, but a ton of things suck for everyone.
Unfortunately, the promises of the right are a monkey's paw at best, or a scam at worst. Even if the right succeeds, they usually make things worse for everyone in the process, even themselves.
Especially because average privilege accross a demographic says nothing of a given individuals privilege.
But I think that's not the only reason people feel this way, but also because for the people we interact with they are the authority. Most of my teachers were progressive, anti-capitalist, and ERFs(I don't know about trans exclusionary since they never talked about it)- but said ridiculous things like "men can't get raped". This might've been just my school, but especially amongst girls, anyone suspected of being "conservative" was bullied. I wasn't conservative but was pretty argumentative, and I have someone email my school email thanking me for saying what they wanted to say but were too scared to.
Remember for a lot of people my age, early 20s and late teens, when we were growing up people who made funny memes(like from our perspectives Alex Jones or whoever) were being banned while the inverse wasn't happening.
I went through a phase where I felt the exact same way. My upbringing was left wing and becoming more conservative felt like rebellion. I was never really that right wing, but I was convinced that conservatives must have some valid points. After all, how could half the country be wrong on almost everything?
Unfortunately for conservatives, I never stopped questioning, never stopped pushing ideas to their limits. In doing so, I independently came to many of the same left wing viewpoints I grew up with, only stronger and more resilient. I realized that my parents were actually right, while I was wrong.
More importantly, I realized that conservative ideas did make sense, but not at face value. Conservatives are inconsistent and contradictory because they aren't expressing their motivations explicitly. They often aren't aware of their actual reasoning, but there is logic behind their views. The logic is usually very cynical and cruel, dehumanizing people and valuing identity over principles.
I used to think somewhat like you, until I applied a critical lens to conservative ideas in the same way I had investigated familiar progressive ideas. Now I'm a trans woman who's farther left than every elected representative in congress. I still believe in almost all of the leftist ideas I was raised with, only I've pushed them farther than my parents ever did.
Right now you're critical of progressives, and often you spot valid flaws, but are you willing to continue? Are you willing to peer deeper into reality; to open your eyes to fundamental truths? That was my strategy, and it took me from naive progressive, to rebellious centrist, to the eventual woke queen I am today.
I continue to awaken to new truths, mostly because I like doing it. I like the feeling of discovery and understanding. Thanks to my efforts, I've found likely answers to humanity's biggest questions, raised my base happiness levels from constantly suicidal to never hopeless, and became way smarter than I thought I'd ever be. I think most people can learn what I've learned if they apply themselves, but it's still a tough journey. Are you willing to take it?
I appreciate you sharing, but I think you're misunderstanding me and what I was saying. I am not conservative, nor am I progressive. My point was just that progressivism was the dominant ideology of authority in most of my upbringing. Being the authority ideology doesn't inherently make it wrong, or its "designated opposition" right. I have a few fundamental values that are based(like I think deep down probably everyones) on my intuition and emotion. I then try to interpret how certain things align with those values. Its true that probably at least some of the basis for those values were initially rebelliousness- but that doesn't exactly make them wrong. I also don't know that I agree there is such a thing as a fundamental truth- but I'm curious what you are the likely answers to (and what are) humanity's biggest questions?
No, you're conservative. I don't like labeling my beliefs either, but being pro cop and antiprogressive is conservative. In reality, self proclaimed American conservatives want to change society to be more hierarchical and unfair, not keep things as is. If you're not applying pressure for reformation, selfish interests will cause backsliding. The battle will never end until humanity dies out. Good things require effort to maintain.
Another mistake you make is thinking progressives have more power than we do. The rich aren't progressive. Companies pandering to diverse customers aren't progressive, they're just making money by expanding their customer base. The right screams about companies being woke, but the companies are often act more right wing than they would be if they were only chasing profits.
Social media companies don't censor conservatives unfairly, instead they protect conservatives from the policies they implement to prevent brands from pulling advertising. The standards are higher for left wing causes in the mainstream media, as the rich people who own them are right wing. Accurate descriptions of reality in science and journalism tend to support progressives more than conservatives, with publications often introducing inaccuracies to prop up conservative positions.
My biggest problem when I thought like you was having an inaccurate view of left wingers as having power in society. Many agents that I thought were left wing actually weren't, instead only supporting left wing causes for personal gain. Empirical observations are almost always in opposition to right wing plans for improving society. Exclusively right wing plans never make things better for the weak; never.
If you want fundamental truths and answers to our biggest questions, read my comment history. This comment is already long enough.
being pro cop and antiprogressive is conservative.
I am neither of those things. And it's very condescending to assume you know what I am. Well it depends what "anti progressive" means, I support some progressive stances but oppose others.
If you're not applying pressure for reformation
Again, you don't know me.
The rich aren't progressive. Companies pandering to diverse customers aren't progressive
They may or may not be. I think it's wrong to assume companies aren't just made of people, and people may make some logical oversights of their beliefs to keep their standard of living and job.
Social media companies don't censor conservatives unfairly, instead they protect conservatives from the policies they implement to prevent brands from pulling advertising.
Why would brands pull their advertising? No person sees an Amazon ad on something dumb and thinks that means Amazon endorses that belief. There are however certain organizations such as the ADL that pressure companies into pulling their ads.
Accurate descriptions of reality in science and journalism tend to support progressives more than conservatives, with publications often introducing inaccuracies to prop up conservative positions.
This is true. Progressivism has a basic moral value of utilitarianism. Conservatism basic moral values are religion and tradition. Of course one of those has more evidence for it.
Many agents that I thought were left wing actually weren't, instead only supporting left wing causes for personal gain.
Well isn't that a lot of those out of power too? After all, one of the biggest criticism of poor Trump voters was that they were voting against their interest. They weren't voting for personal gain. Which would imply that at least some less conservative voters were convinced by that argument. Maybe no one votes in their interest, but at least conventional wisdom was the two wolves and a sheep saying.
Empirical observations are almost always in opposition to right wing plans for improving society.
You know, how you define improving society depends on your values. We probably agree on some parts of the definition and disagree on others.
Exclusively right wing plans never make things better for the weak; never.
That's not to mention the definitions of right and left wing tend to depend on the person.
Lul you're not kidding. It's crazy to see how often you hear that happening and it happens with all sorts of youtubers not just weeb and gamers.
The Youtube algorithm just showed me a video about that the other day. I didn't even know that they originally had nothing to do with being right-wing fascists.
My entire understanding of skinheads was "skinheads are fascists" and I never delved any deeper into it. Until the other month when my barber told me I should consider getting a chelsea cut, my gut reaction being "why would I want to look like a neonazi?"
But one simple online search later, and I went back for the shave. The original sentiment of the skinhead culture is slowly being reclaimed, though there will always be two potential interpretations of what someone with that style stands for, I'll happily rock my skinbird cut at union rallies and antifa protective counter-protests when actual nazis try to raid our local queer clubs.
... Is google pulling up the wrong kind of Chelsea cut? You must have some interesting barbers lol.
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=chelsea+cut&iax=images&ia=images
Unfortunately any anti-establishment counter-culture movement that is predominantly white will attract Nazis. And these nazis sometimes don't even know they are one. You even see it in some far left movements. There are people in those movements who call themselves lefties yet have espoused right wing fascist ideology
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to be fair, it doesn't help that some very prominent "leftist" "feminists"(see TERF) are signal boosting Nazis, or how for some reason we still allow tankies to call themselves leftists because of American Cold War propaganda (this 1950s-70s Cold War cartoon said the USSR are clearly left, since they are "communism", so anyone supporting these "communists" must also be a leftist!)
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yup, there is, but tankies aren't it.
auth left looks like some form of highly self-regulating society, the problem is the inherent instability in this type of system almost always ends in auth right as a group of elites takes control, or breaks down into non-auth-left when motivation for said society dies down.
How predominantly white were the original skinheads? Because it was hugely Jamaican influenced.
For what it's worth, Wikipedia says:
In addition to retaining many mod influences, early skinheads were very interested in Jamaican rude boy styles and culture, especially the music: ska, rocksteady, and early reggae (before the tempo slowed down and lyrics became focused on topics like black nationalism and the Rastafari movement).[1][12][13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead
Which sort of implies it was a white people thing that was influenced by black culture but not when it was too black.
I have no real idea of the demographics though. I shave my head, but it's because I hate sitting in a barber chair making smalltalk and I save money not doing it.
Which sort of implies it was a white people thing that was influenced by black culture but not when it was too black.
I can see why you might think that from reading about it in 2024 but I'd suggest to you that the tempo slowdown is the major factor. Ska is an uptempo party music. Rocksteady slowed the tempo down and Reggae generally kept the tempo at that slower pace.
Also there was a progression of people leaving skinhead for rock following more high energy bands like The Who and The Small Faces and going through the psychedelic changes into Rock at the end of the sixties.
The fans of ska had no problem with reggae, especially Bob Marley, who was collaborating with Mick Jagger in no time. It's just they'd moved on from skinhead because the scene had become much more associated with violence. There was also the very deliberate efforts of the National Front to recruit football supporters during the early 70s heyday of football hooliganism. A lot of the people that were into violence were attracted to the second wave of skinhead just as cultural changes to the music in Jamaica and the UK meant that a lot of the first wave were evolving into mods and then some of them hippies and eventually you see the emergence of street punk at the end of the 70s.
As for Rastafarianism, that was not at the time a dogmatic religion like Catholicism or the Moonies but arose out of cultural immersion and community practice in the places in Jamaica where most of its adherents lived. I don't think it is a matter of being too black, it's just that it's very specific to Jamaica and eventually the Jamaican diaspora.
Edit: It's no accident that the third wave of skinhead was kickstarted by Two Tone and was explicitly multi-racial and also that Two Tone harked back to uptempo ska.
I HATE the small talk! My barber gives me a scalp massage too, really scratching it up, and that's just awful too. I've asked him not to do it but it's part of his routine and he does it automatically. My ideal barber would let me fall asleep in the chair.
Yeah Nazis are a problem in pretty much all subcultures. Industrial, punk, goth, and so on. Subcultures attract people who don't feel like they have a place, and this is the group extremist groups target.
Yeah Nazis are a problem in pretty much all subcultures
I don't know if I agree with that; well, I agree they're always a problem, but if you're a Jazz or Blues fan for example, I imagine there aren't the same issues we have in Metal.
They get the other side of the coin. Friend of mine has played harmonica for a long time, has played with/been in numerous blues bands. You will find a lot of heavily anti-white, black nationalism. Like the "we need to exterminate all white people for any chance at peace and prosperity" types.
Last I checked, yes here it is:
As an ideology, black nationalism encompasses a diverse range of beliefs which have variously included forms of economic, political and cultural nationalism, or pan-nationalism.[9][7] It often overlaps with, but is distinguished from, similar concepts and movements such as Pan-Africanism, Ethiopianism, the back-to-Africa movement, Afrocentrism, Black Zionism, and Garveyism.[5] Critics of black nationalism say it promotes racial and ethnic nationalism, separatism and black supremacy, and they compare it to white nationalism and white supremacy. However, the Southern Poverty Law Center says that black nationalist groups exist in a "categorically different" environment than white nationalists in the United States.
I'm white, my dad (also white) played blues guitar, and I've never run into anything remotely like what you're describing.
And if it turns out that the SPLC was totally wrong, and 'Black Nationalism' takes over and commits genocide on white people, that's definitely something we'll be worried about.
Well your experience has been very different. He has been handed literature explaining how the prosperity of the african people can not exist in world with europeans and asians. My friend is not white, might be the difference here. He has run into numerous recruiters for this ideology in a number of different forms. Any form of ethnonationalism is bad. Just because where you live, it is a minority, and therefore isn't some eminent concern of going third reich, does not make it not bad.
After watching a video of a live show where Phil sang Walk with Sieg Heils injected into the lyrics, I wish I could just erase all my memories so that I could forget who he is.
Not metal generally, but you should look into Black Metal. It's a real problem there... :-/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Socialist_black_metal_bands
Lol, a lot of those names are a little too on the nose. I mean Kristalnacht and Infernall SS? Can't imagine making a wrong assumption on those
That's why I stay away from these labels. Not against them, but I can't tell what is what.
Pfff
When I used to have time to figure that out Metallica and Megadeth were still in their good phase, with 4 albums each. And no internet. There was like heavy metal, death, and eventually Nord or something. And these would cover any bands.
Sounds like trash and speed existed as well in your time. Black perhaps too, not sure if I'm remembering history well.
It certainly existed as a style, but not sure as a name. At least in my circles we didn't call them that.
This is a tiny portion of black metal in a sub genre . But it isn’t surprising that an extreme genre with a strong counter culture doesn’t have some extreme spin-offs.
Also you can tell which bands are in NSBM because they are all terrible at actually making music.
Of course there are nazis bands, especially I'm black metal. But that's a minority, and they generally suck anyway. But I'm not into BM at all personally, so I don't bother tbh.
It’s not a majority, but it is a higher risk factor. Especially when Sweden/Finland produce a lot of metal bands and are also a higher risk factor for nazi sympathy - by and large they certainly don’t idealize them but they also aren’t always vilified to the same level as you might expect elsewhere
Yeah, and the aggression in music easily syncs with literal agreccion of the third reich, so it's a low-hanging fruit if you don't have other ideas for music and songs.
Lemme try:
Panzer death
Panzer death
Blood soaked brothers march
Panzer death
Panzer death
Glory to our patriarch
bonus points for samples of machinegun added to drums, lyrics in German, bandmembers photographed in pseudo-nazi uniform, etc.
Some idiots will listen that on repeat in no time
Edit: Listen to Hanzel und Gretel - SS Deathstar Supergalaktik, it covers most of the the cliches
Nazis are absolutely vilified in Sweden and Finland, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'd say NSBM bands is a lot more prevalent in Eastern Europe and Russia.
It's also something that's more related to some genres of music than others. It's definitely a much bigger issue in metal than you would find in, say, jazz or electronica. On the other hand, it's more overt than the kind of Nazis you find in country music, and they get much more publicized.
It's definitely a much bigger issue in metal than you would find in, say, jazz or electronica.
For a while, and I assume it continues today, there was/is a synth subgenre called fashwave, a Nazi-adjacent take on vaporwave. I imagine they have a niche elsewhere in the electro scene, and prob. industrial too?
There was a whole movie made about how the Nazis weren't all that into jazz.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108265/
Although they did record some as propaganda to play back at the west over the radio.
The good ol’ American tradition of forcing squaredance onto kids in schools—I was a victim myself from the ‘80s to the mid ‘90s—was borne of the fear and disgust of the black and Jewish roots of jazz, with Hitler idol Henry Ford being a big advocate for it.
Yep, and one of the ways cannabis was demonized in the first half of the 20th century was by associating it with jazz culture, making it very much something that "they" did.
jazz or electronica.
Gabber pretty much inherited all the Nazis Punks threw out of concerts and are, to their credit, also not terribly unlikely to throw them out of concerts. There's definitely infiltration going on when it comes to Dark Techno. When it comes to Jazz it shouldn't be too terribly fucking surprising that white supremacists don't like it. It was outlawed in the Third Reich, though they also produced their own for foreign propaganda purposes.
It was outlawed in the Third Reich, though they also produced their own for foreign propaganda purposes.
Funny, I replied to someone else saying almost the exact same thing, but I couldn't remember the name of Charlie and his Orchestra. Thanks.
Someone else told me about the electronica thing earlier and I shouldn't have been surprised.
When I was in high school, the worry was finding a cool punk band and discovering they were skinheads.
I'd argue that the problem with Lost Prophets wasn't necessarily their political views though...
Reading these comments is making me sweat nervously because I made an 80s-themed submod for a racing game with era-appropriate metal music, and it seems that a decent chunk of the bands I chose for the soundtrack turned out to be fascist or fascist-sympathizing 😓
Saw a random YouTuber I thought I liked do a livestream. He usually does reactionary or random updates content.
I go in and he's ragging on Biden and I see people doing SuperChats with pro-Trump messages and just casual racism. Apparently, Biden's PR person probably should have been white according to these guys. I ducked out, was quite sad.
When I was like 13 and was learning to play guitar, I learned sooo many songs by Avenged Sevenfold. And then I saw pictures of them playing concerts with the confederate flag, and even had custom confederate flag guitars. I lived a pretty sheltered life and didn't quite understand how big of a deal that was at the time, but it definitely felt a little gross to me. I slowly stopped listening to them.
They did eventually come out and say that they regret doing that, for what it's worth. But I never went back to listening to them.
Dethklok seems pretty safe.
There isn't all that much out there about Brendon Small though and what I could find he should be a decent enough person....plus I liked Metalocalypse quite a bit, so that helps me 😁
Dunno much about Bryan Beller, Nili Brosh or Gene Hoglan, just saw a few random videos with them so hard to gauge.
Gojira are environmental and humanist activists to a certain degree. At least in their music that is.
Plus they fucking rock, holy shit.
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WHAAAAAAAAAALES
But yeah having a whole song about the Amazon burning that happens to also have some stellar riffs? Yeah I'm on board
Just listen to cattle decap. The morally superior band. Kidding. They're pretty great tho, more people should listen to cattle decapitation. Especially the later albums which are more approachable
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That's an interesting take. I love Cattle Decapitation's old stuff but their newer stuff never really grabbed me.
Either way, to each their own. Cattle Decapitation is amazing either way!
Edit: I didn't see that you specified "more approachable". You're 100% correct in that. It's 5am here, sorry.
Brendon Small made Home Movies. He has to be a decent person. I will be very upset if he isn't. I may have to go poke him in the eye if he isn't.
Years ago, Brendan Small did a couple of characters on Comedy Bang Bang who, while being absolutely fucking hilarious and source of some of the top moments on the podcast, were kinda problematic, coming off as ethnic caricature. He quit doing those characters in 2017, for I think pretty obvious reasons, though I’m not sure whether anyone ever called him out on it. I assume it was similar to PFT’s rationale for dropping Ice-T from his own repertoire. In any event, you can take this however you will.
A few years ago I found this band I liked - then I saw they literally played a concert for the staff at Guantanamo. Man... that was sickening.
Did one or more of the members kill
A) themselves
B) another band member
C) Random strangers by burning down a church
I don't think he's an out-and-out white supremacist, but one of the weirdest heel-turns ever was seeing actual Latino immigrant Tom Araya go from being the face of the evilest thrash metal band in the world to an outspoken evangelical Catholic MAGA-pilled Trump supporter.
I don't think it's uncommon unfortunately for immigrants who make their money to then move to the right of the political spectrum from a "I got mine" point of view. The right welcomes these new voices because they can point at them and say they aren't racist, and that there aren't systemic issues, not recognizing that the individual who was successful was so in spite of the barriers.
Yea as a Mexican whose lived in multiple states in Mexico patriarchy and conservatism is still very much alive, especially in smaller areas. It's getting better but it's still a very religious country. They suffer from much of the same things the US does when it comes with dealing with conservatives. Instead of it being about white power it's just about patriarchy and religion and good old conservatism. Doesn't help that a lot of the population is barely literate and many don't go to or graduate high school. In my experience, graduating high-school is seen like getting an associates degree In the US.
My own experience as an immigrant from a country - Portugal - which both is the source of lots of economic emigrants and nowadays takes in lots of economic immigrants, is that unlike the wunderlust kind of migrant (which tends to be open minded and hence to the left of the political spectrum), the economic kind tend to be significantly more to the right.
You can see that for Portugal in both how the traditional center-right (and in the last elections the far-right) gets a higher percentage of votes from emmigrants than they get in Portugal itself and amongst Brasilians (the largest foreign group by far) living in Portugal Bolsonaro got a signiticantly higher vote percentage in the last two elections than he did in Brasil.
I don't fully understand why it so. My theory is that it's a mix of the heightened nationalism that one gets when living abroad (worse for economic immigrants who felt forced to leave and miss a lot more all that they grew up with), the way many poor or working class people who never actually seen real wealth up close think they're "rich" when they make a bit more than their average countryman (same effect as how moderatelly successful shop owners with little formal education with modest background tend to turn into rightwingers) and that economic migrantes tend to be overwhelmingly be the ones with less formal education who feel much more pressure to leave their country due to low income that more highly educated countrymen.
don't think he's an out-and-out white supremacist
outspoken evangelical Catholic MAGA-pilled Trump supporter
Bruh, what?
No my clothes arent soaking wet, they are just well hydrated.
I'd say yes. According to their German Wikipedia entry, they support Sea Shepherd, environment and wildlife protection, and indigenous people in their fight against deforestation.
i can remember back in the late 90/early 2000, that the right wingers pushed hard into the goth and metal scene here, looking for new recruits. it definitely felt like a targeted approach, and they did the same with the techno scene before (where they were mostly thrown out). they had more success in the folk scene, but they slowly gained ground over the last years. this sucks :-(
They didn't realize that most of the metal scene has connection with the punk scene, and the punk scene is full of anarchists and anti-fascists. It's weird how much success they had with the country music scene.
Who would have thought that country music, which originated in the South, would be so receptive to white nationalism??
I was gonna say, I don't think metal has a higher rate of nazis. You look at country and you basically have to accept they're all MAGAts (another reason to just avoid country). I think most people in metal are pretty progressive, that's why they're in metal. Honestly Dero Goi is a great example: he jumped down a conservative rabbit hole and left metal.
If anything, it's just that the nazis are always a vocal minority and when they're into metal it's some confirmation bias for close minded people who don't like metal.
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No, the issue is that metal has a lot of iconography which outright attracts Nazis and the like (e.g. heavy use of crosses, mentions of war and sometimes glorification of ancestry, viking culture, classically western icons like medieval knights and the Crusades, etc).
We have to push really hard against their co-opting of our symbols if we don't want "Skinheads: Metalic Boogaloo" to become a thing.
they had more success in the folk scene
Who could forget the absolute renaissance of ultra-nationalist country songs that inundated the country after 9/11?
I was practically begging for some Big and Rich just to get people to stop playing that Ted Nugget slop, by the time I was out of college.
Going back ten years to people trying to explain away Kanye's BLKKK SKKN HEAD by pointing to the brief moment of time where skinheads weren't all Nazis is pretty funny now though.
I dunno anything about the Kanye incident, but skinheads started and there continue to be non racist skinheads everywhere. It wasn't a brief period of time at all.
I can't be expected to research every individual in every band I listen to. That's hundreds, possibly thousands, of musicians.
Art and artist can be separated. I mean, even this painting shows technical merit?
Damn shame, in hindesight. A bit more mediocre art on the pile could have spared us the implosion of Central Europe.
There's definitely a timeline where he just paints paintings of government buildings to hang inside those buildings
Do you really believe that without hitler, the fascists wouldn't have found another leader?
I think he was more talented at galvanizing an audience than Himmler or Goering, and prettier to look at than Goebbels.
In the same way Ted Cruz and Ron DeSantis will never draw the same crowds as Trump, The Dolph had that special sauce that congels people around a movement.
I can see a history in which Rosa Luxembourg was the firebrand that ignited a national movement but doesn't end up invading Poland over some delusional vision of a New Reich.
For a middleschooler? Sure. For an adult trying to pursue a career as a painter? Nah. IDK if he didn't draw guide lines with a pencil before painting or what, but that's pretty bad on an entirely technical level.
Please explain how that could only be good for a middle schooler because that is obviously someone who is extremely good at painting