I love watching this strawman over and over.
Of course Biden is better than Trump. He should still stop supporting genocide.
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn't have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.
If it's not going to be Biden, then it will be someone else. Either a Republican or a Democrat.
Even someone who earlier looked promising, eg Fetterman is a staunch Israel supporter.
Because the problem is systematic. You can't just uproot the US-Israel nexus that's deeply entrenched in the US politics.
the Oval Office doesn't have start/stop genocide button
True, but it DOES have the option to stop supplying bombs that they know for a fact are being used to commit that genocide.
Your "either they can push a magic button or they're doing all they can" dichotomy isn't clever. It shows that you're being either disingenuous, willfully ignorant or just extremely obtuse.
Because the problem is systematic
Yes, Israel is systematically wiping out the population of Gaza and the Biden White House is using the levers of the system to help them do it. That's not an argument for not telling them to stop.
You can't just uproot the US-Israel nexus that's deeply entrenched in the US politics
You can, in fact. It worked with Apartheid South Africa, which the US also kept supporting way beyond the point that most other countries stopped, and it'll work with THIS apartheid regime too.
There's no Palestinian Mandela. Just because Israel is also an apartheid state doesn't mean that it's identical to South Africa at the time.
Also, that wasn't an analogy, it was another historical example of how you don't end apartheid by supporting it.
I agree the US shouldn’t support apartheid.
It worked with Apartheid South Africa, which the US also kept supporting way beyond the point that most other countries stopped, and it'll work with THIS apartheid regime too.
To me this is bringing up somewhat of an analogous situation, in which we would copy paste a solution from one region to another.
If we do use the South African solution, do you think it will end with a single secular binational state between the Jordan and Mediterranean, with equal rights for all inhabitants?
I have enjoyed reading through your well written comments. I am not looking to be combative, just wanted to get your thoughts.
It has a stop paying for genocide button.
It has a stop vetoing UN resolutions button.
It has an impose sanctions button and a freeze assets button.
It has a pull their warships out button.
It has dozens of make life really uncomfortable for Israel if it doesn't fucking stop committing genocide buttons.
But at the very least it could stop actively helping them commit genocide.
They did use the stop vetoing resolutions button. Not much but it's not nothing.
Sending their warships would mean Israel would try calling their bluff and force USA to commit an act of war to stop them, which would cause absolutely chaos in the region. They probably should start with sanctions though.
Biden's biggest problem here is he's so focused on backrooms negotiations, that he's not using some of the options that could increase public pressure, and all other people see is old treaties continuing with very slow changes and seeing the continued actions of the other party who doesn't really want to negotiate.
I mean withdraw their ships already in the area, replace that layer of defense with, oh I dunno, thoughts and prayers maybe.
You're one the types that demand we leave Iraq and then gets upset when we have to face the consequences of doing it.
They also claimed that the resolution is non-binding, which is contrary to stated international law.
And what does that do?
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
These things don't happen in a vacuum.
Biden isn't rubbing his hands with glee and laughing maniacally.
Do you honestly think these options weren't considered over the last six months?
And what does that do?
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
On the contrary. The majority of the population doesn't approve of supporting genocide, especially Democrats and prospective Dem voters further left.
The status quo of supporting the genocide isn't winning over anyone who would vote Republican if they stopped. It's alienating millions of crucial voters who won't vote at all if they DON'T stop.
We can easily agree that not voting is a bad idea that is likely to contribute to the risk of mango Mussolini winning.
Given that, we should be able to also agree that it's a bad idea to knowingly keep doing something morally and ethically reprehensible that is causing people to do just that.
And what does that do?
Makes it harder for Netanyahu to continue committing genocide.
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
We shouldn't keep supporting genocide just because you're scared of what the GOP might do. That's a shitty reason for anything, and it's disgusting cowardice in this context.
What happens when your high morals cost American lives here at home? You'll learn a lot about cowardice when living under authoritarian rule.
In before, "just have a bloody war."
What happens when your high morals cost American lives here at home?
I did not suggest voting for Trump or not voting for Biden.
I said that Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Is your position also that we need to endlessly discuss bidens position on Isreal during an election year? Or are there other issues that we need to address as americans?
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
Should we also not support healthcare, trans rights, women's rights, work reform , tax reform, climate change laws and all the other things they get angry at? The road to fascism is paved with political convenience.
I'm worried that'll be their next strategy considering their pivot strong right on immigration
Most of those things are a part of the democrats platform. Isreal is categorically different.
“Oh, I’m so sorry, I’d love to stop the genocide, but think of the optics! It would be soooooooo optically bad if we stopped the genocide! It could make the fence sitters vote for trump! We all know the fence sitters love genocide!”
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button
I didn't say "stop genocide". I said "stop supporting genocide."
That’s a distinction that shows you understand nuance. Unfortunately your position does not suggest the same.
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
They indeed have the stop button but it's not the one they are pressing.
But to uproot it will require a boatload of activism, including a realistic threat of electoral loss and primary challenges.
The Republican ship is sinking and a void will be opening for the next populist to unite the two ends of the horseshoe (extreme right and extreme left).
And by the way, the same is true for inflation. The "I did it" stickers did put pressure on Democrats to act on inflation.
And yes, it's not easy, but systemic issues can be solved. The USA did get rid of slavery, long before there was universal suffrage. Also got rid of child labour, genocide of native Americans and stopped supporting apartheid in South-Africa.
A defeatist attitude doesn't help.
The Republican ship is sinking and a void will be opening for the next populist to unite the two ends of the horseshoe (extreme right and extreme left).
Thanks for the heads up, Nostradamus.
Right here on lemmy. Try saying that Biden should stop supporting genocide here on lemmy a few times. You'll get plenty of people acting like you're both-sidesing for Trump.
Only if you add in a splash of "so I'm not voting for him".
No one is shouting down people for just saying Biden should stop supporting genocide.
If you say "biden should stop supporting genocide" then you'll get "but the other guy supports genocide even harder" to shut down any discussion. If you point out that it's unacceptable that the only two options are genocide supporters, that's definitely when you get the "you're both sidesing!!" talking point in another attempt to shut down discussion.
Someone posts news about Biden walking back on his sanctions on settlers, and this comment appears. Edit, doesn't work for me, maybe this link to my reply will
Another perfect example and another
Someone makes a meme about Biden jeopardizing his chances and gets this response.
None of these people said they would vote trump. If you look out for it you will see this quite often. Unfortunately a couple of recent threads I was involved in with other examples have since been deleted.
I can't read some of those without creating an account, so I'll take your word for it.
But from the ones I can see, I don't see anyone acting like someone who claimed Biden should stop supporting genocide is both-sidesing for Trump.
The one that comes closest was downvoted and removed, so it's obviously not a popular thing to do.
You get one. I suspect you're arguing in bad faith and I'm not going to waste more time on something like that.
https://lemmy.world/comment/8972976
Particularly sailingbythelee's response. When you try to say this isn't sufficient, it will confirm that you were arguing in bad faith the entire time.
You could not have found a better example.
Original position of the goalposts:
No one is shouting down people for just saying Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Now all of a sudden the downvotes are the most important part
Oh the commenter who's being downvoted? Yeah, it's obviously not a prevalent or popular response. At best you're complaining about trolls on the internet -- that's always going to exist.
Oh, and before I forget, if you say that's not what you're doing, then it will confirm you were arguing in bad faith the entire time.
That's for teaching me that cool trick with that disclaimer -- what a neat way to discredit people.
What is the strawman in this meme? When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing. This is not a strawman.
When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing
A "flaw"? Really? Supporting genocide is more than a "flaw".
But the problem arises when the sort of centrist who would downplay genocide by calling it a "flaw" decides that anyone who says that Biden should stop supporting genocide must be a republican both-sidesing. Or is a Russian. Or chinese, or a bot or a tankie or a trumpist or a nazi or a child.
Which are all things I have been called because I dared to say that Biden should not be supporting genocide.
I’m not disagreeing on the genocide comment. But you said it was a strawman argument. Nothing you’ve said equates to a strawman argument. That’s all I’m saying.
Which strawman? I’m relying on:
strawman: a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
If he doesn’t change his position by Election Day, will that prevent you from voting for him?
Wouldn't that be single-issue voting that would ultimately favor the Orange Menace?
I don't understand why this keeps resurfacing on Lemmy like there's a choice. Like, what's the point of asking people this?
The point is to avoid addressing the reasonable concern. If you say you would not vote for Biden then the conversation becomes about your poor tactics rather than the current president aiding a genocide.
Fair enough. Honestly at this point it's a humanitarian issue, not an electoral one.
In terms of the election, both candidates are bad for Gaza (Trump more so) and Trump is also bad on basically every other issue unless you're a MAGA republican, rich or a fascist. Obviously any sane person must vote for Biden anyway.
In humanitarian terms, Biden's response has been a total and utter disaster and anybody who values all human life equally should be disgusted with him. He has possibly the most leverage to change the situation of anybody outside Israel, so the question is, what type of person do you want to be? Do you want to be the person who stays all chummy with the one committing the vast majority of the atrocities and tries to shield him from criticism, or do you want to be the person who calls out injustice when he sees it? Because I am certain that he sees it.
For the election I do think he should be concerned that not all voters will be so pragmatic. But much more importantly he should do the right thing for the 2 million plus people that are currently suffering collective punishment because of the actions of a small minority of them. This isn't about getting elected, it's about respect for human life.
To convince people to not vote or vote third party, so that fascism can get stronger. It will totally work out this time, guys, promise.
Please vote. Vote third party for president if that’s your conscience.
But also make sure to vote for those what will allow ranked-choice, proportional representation, etc. vote against wackos in your community. Vote for social programs that actually reduce crime and increase safely instead of voting for higher police budgets. Vote for consumer protection. Vote for education and other high return on tax dollar investments.
I thought you guys would "stop after the primary season." I wonder if anyone called that out as bullshit.
Problem is there will be a MAJORITY of us who voted for Biden.
What these assholes don't understand is we are fighting over margins.
I get one vote in the presidential election and when you look at my state, it doesn't fucking matter.
It's down ballot that matters and people tend to vote down ballot of the president elect they support.
So anyone you discourage from voting Biden in a swing state is more like "-200" votes. Where I could say I'm going to piss on my ballot and set it on fire and it does not matter. After it drys, probably. Or my piss will be alcohol because how of wasted I will be.
All this to say, what ever the fuck your problem with Biden is, it doesn't matter. We need to win the house and senate too and it's a uphill battle all. the. fucking. way.
It seems like encouraging people to vote would be more effective than vote-shaming. Am I wrong? Does vote-shaming increase turnout?
Forgive me bud, we're here on a politics message board. We are all entrenched. This is the show to display many different view points and fuck knows where it goes from there. Maybe someone takes a liking to one and uses it but end of the day we are here venting frustrations and kicking piss at each other.
Just going to preface this by saying yes please vote for Biden. If nothing else he is not openly fascist and he will not himself actively work to forward queer genocide and the removal of women's rights. Please vote for him. If you're not going to take any measures to change this system and have resigned yourself to existing within it, do one good thing for women and minorities.
If you think it's fine for a totalitarian fascist state to become established and to mass murder queer people, don't even fucking bother responding to me. If you're saying "don't vote and also don't revolutionize. Just let trans people and women fucking die" then fuck off. You're not even worth engaging with. If fascism takes over and my friends, my family, my loved ones and my community are mass murdered I'll remember how you watched it happen and did literally nothing. Our blood will be on your hands.
I'm not engaging further in this thread.
It's amazing how passive and tolerant the working class has become of the state. If half the energy that was devoted to arguing about why the system sucks but can't be changed was instead put into organizing and committing to revolutionary action... Actual real-world change might have already happened.
Like, what's the line for people? They took away women's bodily autonomy. What about if they took away women's right to work? What if they did away with the 40-hour work week? What if they made it so only land owning whites could vote again? Like, where is the line that people will respond by actually trying to change the system?
"The system is broken, but I'm not here to talk about why we should materially do anything to change that" like what kind of argument is that? Are you just going to watch as fascism literally takes over and then try and revolutionize? If Trump wins, are you then going to try and change the system? After the guy who's definitely a-ok using the military on civilians takes over?
Is this just what it's going to be forever? Forever arguing for the lesser of two evils, the person who will still cause human suffering but not as much as the other guy? Why are so many people seemingly resigned to this status quo? "It sucks but here we are," like what?? Even when revolutionary thought is put forward, people say that it would never work, as though no revolution in history has ever worked or achieved any of its aims. Which is just wrong. Neo liberal propaganda has got yall so bad that you genuinely believe that Western capitalist democracy is the only possible way for society to exist and that any and all attempts to change it are impossible.
Biden literally signed into law a resolution that took away the ability of railworkers to strike. This is one of the most anti-union and anti-worker moves from the legislative and executive branches I have ever seen in my entire life.
My choice is between that disgusting sack of shit, and an even worse more putrified fascist disgusting sack of shit scumbag pondscum asshole.
I will not be voting for either, and instead will be selecting the candidate available to me on the ticket most closely matching my priorities and convictions. Either way, the electoral college will look at my vote and immediately trash can it to put the true vote to one of these bought and paid for pricks. Happy fucking democracy, what a goddamn joke.
I don't think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump. I think most progressives, for instance, would agree that Biden is better than Trump, it's just that that's such a low bar. I mean, are liberals really surprised that people aren't all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he's not as bad as the only alternative? Now, I get that liberals don't see it that way, I understand that liberals, apparently, are really very happy with Joe Biden, but for the rest of us he is only the least bad option.
I would imagine those people are Marxists, or other anti-capitalists. If you're somebody whose primary litmus test is whether a candidate is pro-capitalist or anti-capitalist, you might not see much of a difference between Biden and Trump because they are both staunchly pro-capitalist. But I think those people are overrepresented on lemmy and only make up a very small percentage of the actual US voter base.
Or perhaps these people live in the middle east or africa and every day they get a taste of "capitalism".
Really? Because those folks have family here, and they say "stop using our dead relatives as an excuse to let the fascists come for us too you insensitive porcelain American shit bags!"
On Lemmy, yeah. The political leanings here is different than the body politic of America.
Are they literally saying they are the same person? That they share the same atoms?
Or is the point that they are the same in the most important ways?
Maybe your disagreement is over what qualities/policies are most important, but accusing them for being blind is easier than addressing the actual disagreement?
And it doesn't occur to you to ask by what metrics they think that? All metrics? One metric? A spattering of metrics?
accusing them for being blind is easier than addressing the actual disagreement
People on Lemmy are arguing that Biden is just as bad as Trump in the most important ways.
And this is exactly how nothing ever gets done. Only criticize, never do anything, create the feeling that getting involved is pointless because"they're all the same anyway".
I hate that humans are so awful at nuance. People could absolutely praise and condemn the same person for different actions, instead they want to boil down that person's entire existence to "good, bad, different, same". And we all suffer for that
It's very weird to see people say "Biden is awful. I won't support him anymore" and get "Why didn't you say that about Donald Trump?!!!" thrown back at them.
At some point, insisting that Donald Trump will ALSO do a genocide, so you need to donate all your money to the Biden campaign and block walk for him... Fucking bananas.
Even Obama didn't get this kind of Ride or Die support from Democrats.
It's because Trump has said he wants the genocide to be stronger. Biden wants it to end, but isn't doing much to stop it. Trump also wants to go after minorities in the US.
Obama didn't get the same support because his opponent wasn't even close to as bad. Trump has already tried to overturn democracy. Republicans have also put together a plan to innact a Christo-fascist dictatorship (project 2025). The elections with Obama were business as usual. This election is, for many people, life or death, and potentially the last hope for democracy.
Also, Obama was cooler than Biden but he wasn't better. Honestly, I think if you were to compare their actions as president, Biden would be better. He still sucks, but he's much better than I expected (very low bar). They're just not great at communicating what he's done.
Trump has said he wants the genocide to be stronger.
And Mitt Romney said "Double Gitmo". That doesn't absolve Obama or Biden for keeping the illegal torture prison open during their terms.
You don't absolve yourself of genocide by saying "Well, it was either me or Mega-Hitler"
You don’t absolve yourself of genocide by saying “Well, it was either me or Mega-Hitler”
What? So let's apply this to 1930s Germany.
Your stance is that, if Hitlers political rivals stood for anything "wrong" by your moral code, whatever that is, that voters were in the right to not vote against literally Hitler?
That's taking "two wrongs don't make a right" to extreme absolutes.
Your stance is that, if Hitlers political rivals stood for anything “wrong” by your moral code, whatever that is, that voters were in the right to not vote against literally Hitler?
This was what brought down the Hindenburg government, in fact. His performance in the Presidency was notoriously abysmal and his country suffered enormously under his tenure. In fact, one could very easily argue that Hindenburg's failures created the Nazi Party, as disaffected voters fled the traditional political sphere for the edges of the ideological map - to the Nazis, the Communists, and the Friekorps radicals..
It was, after all, Hindenburg himself who appointed Hitler to the Chancellorship, because he considered Hitler someone he could compromise with.
This is a shockingly similar position to the current Biden/Schumer Congress, which consistently attempts to negotiate with "moderates" in the Republican Party even to this day.
That’s taking “two wrongs don’t make a right” to extreme absolutes.
Looking at the trajectory the conservative wing of the Democratic Party has us on, and comparing it to the Weimer Republic, reveals some terrifying parallels.
This isn't "two wrongs make a right" nearly so much as it is "the marginal less or two evils is still unconscionable".
Oh geeze what's worse a bigger war crime prison or bringing a genocide against Arabs to America?
No one is saying they're absolved. Where have you heard that?
The fact of the matter is that if you don't like genocide or gitmo or whatever other horrible things, you should vote for the person who at worst wants to maintain the status quo of horrible things.
That said, Obama wanted to close Gitmo. Biden has also condemned Israel's attacks, and the US has warned them to stop. We've also stopped some military aid to them, but obviously not all. The recent jets, for example, still happened, but they're air-superiority fighters which serve no use against Palestine. We've also continued to send a lot of other defensive aid, though offensive has slowed down if not stopped. To imply Obama or Biden didn't try to do anything is ignorance at best, if not an outright lie. The fact of the matter is that much of it is handled by congress though, and republicans in congress will stop a Democrat from doing essentially anything.
That said, Obama wanted to close Gitmo.
Obama said he wanted to close Gitmo. He gave up forever at the very first setback.
Sure, and we can question it, but we can't know what he will do. My understanding is that he really had not control over that though
Because the reality of our shitty political system is that not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate means supporting the one that is. It only actually matters in the handful of swing states, but the internet is worldwide and heaping negativity about supporting the non-fascist candidate can matter. This doesn't mean you shouldn't criticize Biden and the Democrats for their many failings, but not supporting him in the election for the sake of the country is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Because the reality of our shitty political system is that not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate means supporting the one that is.
Isn't this a little disingenuous? Or maybe individualism is so ingrained in the western psyche that people honestly don't see the asymmetry of this framing.
The reality of our political system is that the only way to get change is to demand it from the people who need your vote. By giving your vote without demanding change, you're supporting the system that disenfranchises you (and you're supporting the binary choice that was given to you by it).
not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate
If
You're
Doing
Genocide
Then
You're
A
Fascist
Candidate
You are aware that fascism already has a definition, correct? It's not just someone doing something that you don't agree with.
Please don't water down a word that has very serious implications right now.
It’s not just someone doing something that you don’t agree with.
Are we trying to do moral relativism on genocide?
The IDF knowingly and deliberately bombed food aid workers in clearly marked vehicles on a road designated for food aid delivery, entirely for the purpose of starving out war refugees.
They did that with munitions built and supplied by the American government.
And when questioned, the American National Security Secretary said it was the IDF's prerogative to bomb them.
This was deliberate, calculated, cold blooded murder of aid workers done with the participation of the US military under the command of President Joe Biden.
Everything you just said has nothing to do with fascism and is therefore irrelevant to the term.
I'm not saying that any of that is ok, but that doesn't make it fascism.
Even Obama didn't get this kind of Ride or Die from Dems
He wasn't running against Donald "ban the Muslims" Trump,
YES HE ABSOLUTELY DID IF YOU'RE SAYING THIS YOU ARE CLEARLY TOO YOUNG TO REMEMBER THE OBAMA GIRL SQUAD
He wasn’t running against Donald “ban the Muslims” Trump,
He was running against Double Gitmo Romney.
YOU ARE CLEARLY TOO YOUNG TO REMEMBER THE OBAMA GIRL SQUAD
You're confusing a publicity stunt financed by the party with an enthusiastic show of support
Have you talked with Republicans, though? This has always been the way of a republican. Democrat does bad things, republican does bad thing. To them it’s a wash even though what the Republican did was 100 times worse.
The point is that they have the same "both sides do any bad things at all so Dems just as bad" mentality
It reveals how this is all kvetch from the white left, only people raised by Republicans can have this absolutist moral line of thinking
Perhaps it’s just a case of vote for biden now so trump can be shut out for the next 4 yrs and hope that his senility eats him before the next course
are liberals really surprised that people aren’t all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he’s not as bad as the only alternative?
When your opponent is Trump, it's kind of hard for that to not be the main selling point; he could be the best president ever and that would likely still be true.
he could be the best president ever and that would likely still be true.
If he were the best president ever, he might have something better to run on than "at least I'm second worst to Trump."
You missed the point completely. But that being said, he barely even mentions trump. This idea that he's only campaigning on not being trump is completely detached from reality.
I don't think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump.
You wrote this on Lemmy. I don't see how you missed how popular this attitude is.
I think people who want no criticism of Biden choose to believe that any criticism at all of Biden is the same thing as saying Biden is the same as Trump.
I recognize you as one of the people I'm talking about so it's no surprise you'd say some baloney like this
I've never said Biden is the same as or just as bad as Trump. You on the other hand love to be hostile to anyone opposed to genocide.
Yeah, you lie your ass off and say that opposition to your false equivalency means "no criticism of Biden" and also support of genocide.
Great job, facts don't matter, nuance is dead.
I have never and will never say that Biden is the same as Trump.
You said I do, then have the unmitigated temerity to call me a liar.
The actual argument is that we can do a lot better, but disingenuous political hacks shriek "THAT MEANS YOU THINK BOTH ARE THE EXACT SAME!!!1" and so we're stuck with voting "not the other guy" for the rest of our lives as the wealth gap keeps widening, everything gets less affordable, the climate is still worsening, and nothing improves in any meaningful capacity.
We COULD do a lot better if it wasn't for all those idiots sitting under the scales. There's a shit load of people that actively want everything on the right side of that scale. There's groups of people actively supporting Israeli because they believe it'll bring about the apocalypse and let Jesus return.
Hagee has MILLIONS of followers. And not on twitter, in real life. People who live their lives in service to his vision. People who donate money and time to the cause.
And those are just the zealots. There's millions more that do whatever these people say "just to be on the safe side" in case they're right.
In total they compromise about 15-20% of the population, which is roughly the entire population of France or the UK. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/10/28/22750589/what-the-latest-data-tells-us-about-christian-nationalism-pew-research-center-andrew-whitehead/
These people cannot be reasoned with, they are blood bound members of a death cult and the only recourse we have is to out vote them. It fucking sucks.
We could do a lot better right now, but biden has demonstrated time and again that he won't take action even when he can. The genocide in Gaza is the perfect example. He'll say he's sad and frustrated but then supplies israel even more to continue their genocide. It's hard to believe that if we just vote in democrats hard enough that they will take action when they refuse to take action on things they have the power to right now.
That's not what is being addressed here and I think you know that.
There are LOTS of people who equate the two sides and say they are no different. This is a toxic lie and you shouldn't defend it
There is not. Most people who criticize Biden believe we could do better including not supporting the mass killing and ethnic cleansing or Palestinians by the Israeli state.
And the reality is that as far as the presidency is concerned on that specific topic we have a choice between someone who has been maintaining the existing status quo vis a vis Israel and Palestine but has been successfully pressured into at least looking like he's trying to stop it by his base and the guy who, last time he was in office, made it worse by moving the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem and several other actions, plus everything else wrong with his policies. As far as the presidency goes, those are the only two options, so while we could maybe have done better before, we don't have a different option now.
So, between "bad but can be influenced to be better" and "far, far, demonstrably worse and only descending," the only two actual options, which should people vote for?
I won't tell any one who they should vote for. However, I think the time to influence the president is now. We'll see if he is influencable for this particular horror.
Have you tried to speak up to your elected officials to influence the US government to change it's current position so that we aren't enabling the Israeli government in its massacre of the Palestinean people?
It's plain to anyone who is willing to see that this administration has been influenced in a positive direction vis a vis Israel, and they are doing much more to help the Palestinian people than the "turn Gaza into a radioactive parking lot" crew that is the other option will do should they regain power. And yes, I have called the offices of my elected representatives, which didn't go very far because they're Republicans.
I do not share your compunction about telling people that a vote for better is better, even if better is not ideal, because I'm an adult who has been paying attention to how it has been and is promised to be worse. There is no viable third party, and mathematically there will not be until every state changes away from First Past the Post, which will not happen before the election. Therefore, the better of the two parties, obviously the Democrats, should be voted for. Full stop. Up and down the ballot. Anyone who decides to not vote this way is indicating that they are fine with the Republicans regaining power, and aren't allowed to complain about the leapords eating their face should they win. The only instance in which voting third party is acceptable is for smaller local elections, and even then that's if they did a good job canvassing. You should help them canvass, if there are any nearby.
I am too, believe it or not, an adult. I have different values that lead me to different decisions. I've refrained from condescending to you even though we disagree. I hope shining a light on that will change the tenor of this conversation.
Regarding Gaza, I see that the administration has been inching away from the full support of Israel. But from I can tell, it's been wholly rhetorical. While I would like a long term ceasefire, I know that that's unlikely at this moment. However, this doesn't mean that the Biden administration lacks leverage. They continue to supply the IDF with weapons. Biden needs to stop this. Second, threaten cutting off funding to Israel. We average about 3 billion dollars in yearly aid to Israel. The last time a present threaten to cut off funding to Israel was HW Bush in 1991.
Those would be two material and immediate changes that would make sense to me. Next, support resolutions with other western countries in the UN to move towards a long term ceasefire. Get them to open more land crossing to allow for additional aid to enter via truck. The roads exist. We don't need to build a port.
These steps, would be meaningful. I think it would influence uncommitted voters in swing states. Biden is influenceable now because we are entering into an election. Staying uncommitted means that we have leverage.
I hope that framing makes sense even if you don't agree with it.
Those are good things to want. Since we're talking about elections, it's worth mentioning that of the grand total of two options, only democrats have even a slight possibility for them to happen, wheras the Republicans are saying that Gaza should be nuked, which is worse than what's happening right now, I'm sure you'll agree. Which is to say nothing of literally every single other issue where the Rs are universally much worse.
Feel free to appear uncommitted right up until the general, at which point you and everyone else trying to extract concessions needs to show up. And as long as that happens, I'm sorry for implying you're not an adult.
Every comment I scrolled past was some form of agreement. The parent to this comment was the first one critical of the OP.
I don't know what else to say. I'm being sincere. I'm not interested in some victory points. I'd like my views to be taken seriously and not flattened to farsical stance. I'd like good faith interactions, but understand that this is a passionate project for many.
I'm open to discussion if you want to engage in one that isn't focused on trying to dunk on your opponent.
Wow, it’s almost like their’s a third candidate running on similar policy changes… Cost of living, environment and improving people’s lives in a meaningful capacity.
“For many, many years, I think parents were so gaslighted, and they were scapegoated, and they were vilified and marginalized, so that even parents of kids who were very, very badly injured, knew what happened to their kid, but they were just reluctant to talk about it. And I think now those days are over,” Kennedy said.
“We – our job is to resist and to talk about it to everybody. If you’re walking down the street – and I do this now myself, which is, you know, I don’t want to do – I’m not a busybody. I see somebody on a hiking trail carrying a little baby and I say to him, ‘Better not get him vaccinated.’ And he heard that from me. If he hears it from 10 other people, maybe he won’t do it, you know, maybe he will save that child.”
Kennedy repeated later in the podcast: “If you’re one of 10 people that goes up to a guy, a man or a woman, who’s carrying a baby, and says, ‘Don’t vaccinate that baby,’ when they hear that from 10 people, it’ll make an impression on ‘em, you know. And we all kept our mouth shut. Don’t keep your mouth shut anymore. Confront everybody on it.”
On a different podcast, he said "Every one of us has an obligation to do a civil disobedience every day. And that could just be walking up to another person – a mother who’s carrying a baby, like I did this morning – and saying, ‘Before you vaccinate that baby, do your independent research.’”
So either he changed his mind -- in which case he should very loudly and publicly say he was wrong and recant his remarks -- or he's a fucking liar.
As a potential voter of his. I guess I don’t really care? If I was never allowed to change my opinion, I wouldn’t be able to grow as a person. With his most recent statement, he’s not anti-vaccine. I can find it but I don’t feel like it right now.
Talk is one thing, actions are another. Give the guy a break.
God forbid I have an opinion about Biden’s old age. Another 4 years of inflation out the wazoo, 4 more years of a state sponsored genocide in Gaza, 4 more years giving $75 billion in assistance to Ukraine. We REALLY don’t have ANYTHING else better to spend it on?
I don't know about this candidate in general, but there's no chance anyone outside of the democrat-republican approval filter will get anywhere near the presidency. It's like the myth of "anyone can be rich if they put their mind to it and work hard enough". In theory enough votes could get any candidate the presidency, but in practice it's impossible (with even lower odds than becoming individually rich).
Gawd. Do we have to get one of these braindead posts every damn day? You think it's convincing anyone?
Biden's concerns aren't people choosing Trump. Those voters are fixed and committed. Biden has to worry about Democratic voters getting so frustrated with the system that they check out. These posts are practically (if not actually) designed to do exactly that.
Democrats listen up! Bitching at voters is not an effective campaign strategy! Learn something from Hillary or suffer the same fate!
It's insane that anyone is doing the work of defending either. We deserve significantly better.
This is the thing I can't believe 100% of the left isn't screaming from the rooftops. Yes, we'll all vote for Biden, but we're going to have to live with the fact that we knowingly voted for a genocide supporter for the rest of our lives. Sure, we voted for the lesser genocide supporter, but that really shouldn't matter to our own sense of disgust at ourselves.
Innocent people are dying, and my vote for the guy supplying the weapons that kill them will be the most shameful moment of my life. At least, I hope it will - I don't have much faith at this point that I won't be forced to do something even worse in 4 years. And 4 years after that. And 4 years after that...
I get what you're saying, but this is the United States. We've been voting for genocide supporters for like our entire history...
That doesn't make it right, but it's not new by any means. The entire world deserves better than what we put forward time and time again :(
You're absolutely right, but better late than never for people to finally start realizing it. This isn't the time to be saying "It's nothing new, move on," it's the time to be saying "It's not even new! Get mad! Fight back!"
No, not better late than never. This is giving up. You're talking better "too late" then "it doesn't fucking matter any more." Because we already fucking lost.
I agree that we lost through conventional voting means, but our country was born from people forced to fight to achieve the government they wanted, and we're fully capable of doing it again. We're haven't been pushed into enough of a corner yet as a country for most people to get on board, but we're getting there.
People need to stop thinking that the left "has a party." The right has two parties and the left is trying desperately to stop one from going full authoritarian.
I will tell you what happens when the GOP is served a crushing blow. The people without any real beliefs, like the Trump humpers that voted Obama, come back and devour the DNC from the inside. The game is rigged and youre not a part of the game rigging club. Get use to eating shit and start voting like your friends and families lives depend on it.
100% of the Left in the US is probably only a couple % of the population. At that, I'd bet that not more than half of us even voted Democrat. Some I know voted Green in an effort to participate, but not participate in a two party election. Who fucking cares what we shout from the rooftops?
The fact of the matter is that voting green isn't a real resolution to the issue, it's just a way for someone to willingly not participate in the inevitable 2 party fight, while still saying they voted. The way the system works prevents any green party member from even being seen, much less meaningfully supported. And nobody voted in to one of the 2 major parties is going to change the system to make a 3rd party viable.
We no longer have a democracy - we're meant to have the true freedom to vote for who we want and have that actually be a legitimate method for someone to win, but instead we've served up 2 shitty candidates and told to pick one. It's no different than if a tyrannical monarch let us choose which of his 2 terrible children would become the next ruler after his death.
Now's exactly the time to be shouting from the rooftops, because now's exactly the time to start drumming up support for a resistance movement. We're not there yet as a country, I know, but we're heading there quick, and we should be getting people used to the idea that we have other options than voting for genocide supporter #1 or #2.
If you call yourself left but then don't vote Democrat (mainly in the current times, in the past it wasn't as dire to be fair) you're either lying about being left or are too stupid to understand how our terrible political system works.
We really need to figure out how to get ranked choice voting implemented
"the democrats don't have a cult" lie is falling apart.
"I don't mind if we're funding a genocide, but god forbid I face an inconvenience at home."
The fear of scraping at the bottom of the barrel to keep that american exceptionalism on top rather than revolting against the system is somehow the better option.
"It's not like a cycle of doom or anything as long as I don't get inconvenienced."
Here's a fun game: ask a Democrat for one thing that Biden could do that would cause them to not vote for him.
What's their deal-breaker? Where's the line?
It’s possible that YOU deserve better. But WE… dog we vote for this, we chose this.
There is no nefarious conspiracy, our democracy has problems but, by and large, we get what we chose.
Unfortunately, YOU, and I share this country with 350M people and the majority of them fucking love this shit.
we chose this.
Did "we"? If you had to describe someone who voted for Biden in the primaries what would be some of your guesses? You think a bunch of millenials got together and were like "Yeah! Old white man who's blocked progressive and leftist policies for his entire political career! That's our guy!"
Yeah. That’s the point. that group you described is a minority in the party.
TBH, older black women put Biden in front in 2020. The same women who saved us from a GOP controlled senate when they came out in force in GA.
If you want to understand the Democratic Party ask a 75 YO black lady who hasn’t missed an election or a church service in her life what her priorities are.
TBH, older black women put Biden in front in 2020.
Source?
EDIT: I see someone took the time to downvote me but didn't provide a source. Is that because demographic information isn't provided by the DNC for primary results and this claim is completely made up?
I wasn't able to find good data of the age breakdown, but here's an editorial with a bunch of statistics that claims black women are what put Biden in office. So I'd rate OP's claim as "plausible" only because we know that old people vote more than young people.
Sorry, missed that. Here's some demographic information from CNN broken down by state. After looking at a few of the states, Bernie's base was absolutely white people under age 45, as Biden won all the other demographic groups.
Dig up some exit polls from the 2020 SC dem primary. My statement was based on my recollection from the time. But that is what I was referencing.
You're claiming black women elected Biden in the 2020 primaries because they helped him win in one state?
dog we vote for this
Half the joke on this.
"Well, now that Biden sucks, I'm not going to vote for him."
"NOOOOOO! YOU HAVE TO VOTE! DONDALD DRUMPF!!!"
"Okay, fine. I'll vote for him."
"Aha. So now you can't complain!"
Well I was more talking about the parties generously allowing us to participate in the primary process in a democratic way.
BUT, there isn’t going to be a party primary when you have a sitting president in this country. It’s suicide. Voters did choose Joe Biden in 2020. Voters in the GOP chose DT in ‘16 and ‘24.
There isn’t some massive constituency out there hoping for young leftists that got screwed by “the man”. They got washed out by voters who do not want that. I say this all the time on this website. You have to build that constituency from the bottom up. Ignore the presidency for a few cycles and fill your school board and state house with progressives. The party will follow the voters. That is the way it works.
There isn’t some massive constituency out there hoping for young leftists that got screwed by “the man”.
Just the majority of California Democrats. But other than that, basically nobody.
Or Kamala, for that matter. But no leftist candidate in California had access to the kind of funds that either Kamala's or Feinstein's campaign enjoyed. Very difficult to establish yourself as a known quantity without decades of name recognition and tens of millions of dollars in your war chest.
The Sanders campaign was exceptional in large part thanks to their prodigious fundraising capacity. Also helped that he received over a decade of positive media coverage, plus ample coverage during the Bush Era as a reliable opposition to Bush policy. LA City Council candidates Nithya Raman and Ysabel Jurado had significant success thanks to their own success raising tons of campaign cash.
And this isn't unique to California. When leftist candidates can find a pool of enthusiastic fund raisers and receptive media coverage, they quickly rise to the top of the pile in crowded races.
We do. Unfortunately all we can vote for this year is whether we'll have a 2028 election or if we'll be a theocratic monarchy by then.
Then maybe our system is fundamentally broken and we need to change it? If we are always one election away from the destruction of democracy and society there is something fucked up. I have heard the same rhetoric about every election in the last 30 years.
Yeah, I live in a state where the GOP will win regardless. So I will absolutely not waste my vote on either of these candidates.
The lesser of two evils is still evil. This is just a plain statement of fact. Like sure, I'd rather eat a turd sandwich than be immersed and drowned in shit, but that doesn't make the turd in the sandwich any less of a piece of shit.
Voters have the right to call a turd a piece of shit, even if that's their least bad option. And if certain politicians don't like being called out for doing shitty things, they can also you know, stop doing shitty things.
Conversely, politicians who are not for the "drown people in shit" policy, don't get a free pass for increasing the amount of turds in sandwiches.
PS . I'm not an American and don't vote in your country's elections.
PS2. Sorry for all the shit analogies.
PS2. Sorry for all the shit analogies.
don't worry it's fine there's plenty of turds downvoting you
A lot of demonstration here of people who think politics and democracy is strictly voting, and approximately about once every four years.
The self-reports in these threads are wild.
I was gonna call out the "grammar" one, since a person's grammar really isn't all that big a deal... Then I remembered reading one of his tweets a few days ago. It was somewhere around 200 words, all caps, and zero punctuation.
I can't. I can't do four more years of this guy's fucking tweets. Guys. Please.
Not really, because many articles and blogs embed Tweets in them and my brain automatically goes "you can close this thing by clicking the X in the corner"...
You're not wrong lol. I don't actually use twitter, just made the mistake this time of clicking a link from a news article.
shudders
Never again.
Someone pointed out that him Ying his Hs (yuuuuuuge) is apparently a current linguistic trend in American English, and I about died of a heart attack
I normally am a hard descriptivist but oh sweet God no not more people talking like him!
this is a bad faith reading of a basic ass fucking tenant of socialist theory. democrats, party of the educated, are feigning ignorance to try and silence dissent.
You know, usually when I read “both sides are the same”, it’s a blue conservative like you trying to make people critical of the Democratic party seem unreasonable.
Both sides are capitalist and conservative, but there are differences for sure. Dont you want more differences?
If you wanna really shut up those people bitchhing from the sidelines, the best way to do so is to put them in the game! Force them to show us how to do things since it’s so easy and they have it figured out.
Switching away from first past the post voting allows people to vote for who represents them best while still counting their vote against those they dont want to win. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoiler effect exists.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
Republicans are moving to make alternative electoral systems illegal in their states. Republicans LOVE first past the post voting. Just sbsolutely adore it. Why would you want to use the same voting system republicans want?
So what’s the hold up blue states?
Consider starting a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
Yo, you already spammed this when you made the Hilary post. Exact wording too. It doesn’t really apply. Can you please at least respond to the topic.your response to be at least relevant to the post. They are comparing both sides as if they are both as bad and all you’re spamming is something only relevant to something that happened two days ago about how terrible it would be if they were exactly the same on benefits. This only enables those who are already too lazy standing on the sidelines by fluffing over important, individual points.
If you start talking about getting rid of Red vs Blue, and get more into eating the rich, you find a whole lot more unity real fast. I know many conservatives that hop right on that bandwagon, enthusiastically. Trump v Biden? That's pointless. Wasting billionaires and their families? Now that gets people excited and unified.
Wasting billionaires and their families? Now that gets people excited and unified.
Yeah it turns moderates and liberals into fascists real fast.
As I've said many times before, Approval Voting and Proportional Representation are the way to go in order to break the duopoly. Volunteer with Election Science to get this shit started.
I'm curious what you've done to further voting changes in your state. Would you care to comment?
I'm for ranked-choice voting. But I'm also lazy and rather selfish and haven't donated any time (money is easier) to anything to make the world better. But I'm pretty ok with putting that out there.
ITT: “no one is making <argument x>, and everyone is making <argument y>; OP <agrees/disagrees> with me and therefore that makes OP <position z>”
nearly everyone here needs to pause, look around, and recognize that there is tremendous diversity to people and their worldviews. if you engage with every issue as a monolith, you become the monolith. but if you engage with people as what they are, individuals, you might actually get something done.
The card says moops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMabpBvtXr4
Whether or not complicit, these people are helping the alt-right make their case and win elections.
who are you referring to with “these people”?
i think i agree with you but your comment is a bit unclear sorry
This meme is a consequence of the duopoly system.. it's a political cartel with no real choice
All it would take is for Biden to change his actions when it comes to Israel and Trump would lose.
Instead millions are supposed to swallow their principles and vote for somebody who is openly and activelly supporting a new Holocaust.
Most Americans now think Israel's actions are wrong and yet there is Biden sending 2000lb (that the US itself doesn't use because of their extreme danger for civilians) to Israel.
Biden is doing the kind of thing one would expect from Putin.
While half of Americans think Israel is going too far, only 20% think that America is going too far in their ME strategy
https://news.gallup.com/poll/548084/americans-divided-involvement-middle-east.aspx
80% either think the current policy is either "the right amount" or "not enough"
What Biden is doing is "80% of my voters agree I should continue supporting Israel so I'll keep supporting Israel but begin floating conditioning it or cutting it off to try and placate the other 20% and also to lay the groundwork for maybe turning this into a party line issue so I don't lose the "right amount " voters who can be convinced to still vote for me if they see the "not enough" voters as too dangerous on other issues to vote with.
