If your expenses are more than your pay then you can either get a better paying job, cut your expenses by moving, or die
There are other ways to cut expenses too. I'll bet a lot of people (not all, but a lot of them, maybe even a majority) are paying for things they don't need when they're living paycheck to paycheck. Things like Spotify, Netflix, fast food, car washes, probably even car payments on a car that is beyond their means or at the least way more car than they need.
Every friend of mine I've helped get to a financially stable and responsible point in their life could do it without having to increase their income. Obviously an increase in income makes it a lot easier to do this, but if you don't have the behaviors down, then you're just going to creep your lifestyle when you make more money.
You are correct, of course; I'm being facetious because half the comments here seem to be from people who are renting somewhere that costs their entire salary
paying for things they don’t need
What you mean by 'don't need' is 'don't need as long as they don't want to have a slightly better level of life quality than if they were dirt poor.'
You don't literally need things like Netflix or fast food, but they make your life more tolerable right now so that you don't die of the endless stress and misery.
Sure, there are ways some people can cut expenses. There are also ways people could cut expenses, but at the expense of their own basic mental health.
Not having Netflix and the like does not make one dirt poor. That is such an entitled view to have. Literally first world problems if your mental health can't handle not having the latest entertainment. Go to a library for goodness sakes.
I didn't say they were. Please re-read what I wrote:
What you mean by ‘don’t need’ is ‘don’t need as long as they don’t want to have a slightly better level of life quality than if they were dirt poor.’
Yes, you can go to a library. I love libraries. My wife is a librarian. That doesn't mean I don't think people shouldn't spend $7 a month for a lowest tier Netflix account just to make their lives a little better. Maybe Netflix wouldn't make your life better. Someone with kids who wants them to be able to watch Teletubbies or Peppa Pig whenever they want, that makes both the parents' lives and the kids' lives better.
You are doing something no different from the "stop eating so much avocado toast" guy. Maybe not having avocado toast is a first world problem, but those people don't live in a third world country. So why should they live like they do?
I was super poor in the 1990s. I still bought CDs and DVDs because they made my life better so I wasn't unhappy all the time. Sure, I could have gotten all of my music and movies from the library. On the other hand, I couldn't have listened to the music I liked any time I wanted. Could I have instead saved that money for an emergency or for retirement? Sure I could have. It would have made my life worse and, yes, been damaging to my mental health. I'm not sure why you think libraries existing cure any mental health issues brought upon by not being able to afford to have a better quality of life in a first world country.
I'm not saying Netflix and fast food are keeping people poor like that guy about avocado toast.
I'm saying that if you can't afford an emergency, that's an emergency itself.
Buying fast food and Netflix (and all the other things that go with that) instead of saving up so you can afford an emergency is irresponsible.
Not being able to afford Netflix and/or fast food isn't being "slightly better quality of life than if they were dirt poor." I may not have been dirt poor. But I was buy expired milk and bread to freeze, can't afford minutes for my flip phone while my friends have smart phones, poor. And my quality of life wasn't "slightly better" than "dirt poor." I had a furnished apartment, a color TV, and was able to borrow videos from the library for entertainment.
Also, 6 months may be more than needed depending on your field. If you lost your job today how long would it take you to find a new one? It could be six month but maybe less. I keep 3 months of expenses on hand because it has never taken me more than a month to find a different job.
Didn't anyone notice during covid these "highly responsible business people" couldn't make it a couple months without the "to big to fail" bailouts or free covid money?
The restaurant chain sweet tomatoes didn't even last the two weeks. MFs where running on fumes.
"too". I'm sorry to be a Grammar Nazi, but I see this all the time here and I'm literally only trying to elucidate...
So if I want to accomplish this in a year I should be putting away half of every paycheck? Between rent, bills and groceries, who the fuck can afford that?
Most people can't afford it in a year.
People who inherited a sizeable amount of money or are in the top 10% of earners are able to do so.
I world say it’s getting to 3-months first, then paying down debt with high-interest rates, then trying for 6-months of expenses. Could easily take a decade, but the idea is that once you have that 6-months saved, it’s less likely that you’ll re-enter into high-interest debt in the first place.
Saving 3 months in an emergency fund while accruing high interest debt seems crazy to me.
Most people, especially those not very knowledgeable about personal finance, really should follow the Dave Ramsey baby steps.
Building savings up still assumes you are at least paying minimums. Cc debt or payday loans are a beast of their own where 1month is basically all that's worth it.
How long is a piece of string?
Depends on how much you earn, what are your expenses, and how much you have saved already.
It's a however long it takes goal. I'm hoping to have it done in 2, although 3 and change is more realistic.
Unfortunately, if you can't afford to live with financial security, you can't afford to live. I haven't had an entertainment budget in over a year, and food has basically been what's on sale at the grocery store and maybe a gyro every month.
I wish you the best of luck. It isn't easy. Getting out of debt and having a fully funded emergency fund is a great feeling.
You don't have to. Start early, save aggressively, get it done before you worry about upgrading your lifestyle.
Also, maxing out the $23.5K of the 401K retirement account.
Easy, have a side hustle selling drugs and pay everything cash.
"Just start a small business."
That's what I keep hearing from Republicans.
I actually owned a small business, which is why I understand what bullshit advice that is.
Psh look at this sun breather. I just de-evolved myself by my bootstraps and float near a hydrothermal vent like a real adult
People with less expenses, people with a higher salary, people who live in a less expensive area, etc, etc.
Most people don't accomplish 6 months emergency fund in 1 year, no. It's a marathon, not a sprint.
6 months of expenses, not income.
Most people can. I make $40k per year in a major city, and I'm getting there.
Considering rent or mortgages alone takes a vast percentage of many people's paychecks before you factor in things like student loan and medical debts, most people cannot.
And I have no idea how you can even live on $40k a year in a major city unless you're eating beans and rice with every meal and living in a studio apartment with 4 other people.
Median income here is in the mid $60's. I'm definitely poor, but I do save some money.
I live alone, and cook basically all my meals. Eating out and processed foods from a grocery store are both too pricey for more than once or twice a month. Mostly buy meat and fresh produce because carbs tend to give me stomach issues in large amounts.
Unfortunately, I am disabled. So while I have insurance, I cannot afford to see a specialist as regularly as I should. To be fair, this is out of network and like $700/month on top of my existing premiums and HSA contributions.
If nothing too crazy happens in the next year, I'll be able to change jobs and get my medical care back in network, meaning I don't need to ration doctor's visits for my disability. If nothing happens in 2 or 3, I'll have my emergency savings in a very good place. If nothing happens in 5, I might pay cash for my next car.
After that, fuck it. I'll be financially stable, I'll have another decade before I have a planned major expense like a car, and home ownership is a pipe dream here anyways. Last I looked, they start around $400k, which would mean coming up with about $180,000 for my down payment lol
Edit: Since you brought it up specifically, my rent and utilities is about $1200. I live in a very old building in a shitty neighborhood. The jail is right across the street, so there's enough of a police presence to keep it safe. It is clean, but my landlord is fucking terrible and I have to sue or threaten to sue to get anything fixed.
Sorry that you have to go through all of that. I'm dealing with a mystery illness right now which involves food, so I understand.
I make plenty of money and it took 15 years for me to get my emergency fund up to scratch.
Edit: of course, you can probably do it faster if you don't have any emergencies while funding the account lol.
It's remarkable how this is basically exactly where I'm at, too. I'm two months of salary away from zero.
I had 9 months saved in 2020. I'm taking out loans this month because it's at zero. It's been a hell of a ride. This economy is fucked though.
Hey man, you live in a democracy. Go vote to change it. Oh wait. You can’t because you don’t live in a democracy.
Yeah! Take THAT person in an unfortunate situation. I bet you feel stupid for not having enough money to move, poor-y
You are so smart. Why don't poor people just move to a democracy? Its only requires a bunch of money and sacrifice. Poor people should just abandon all of their friends, families, and connections by spending all of that money that poor people are known to have. That way they can live in a democracy and vote not to be poor, or whatever.
Its possible in this one, it just isn't easy, takes a while, and generally isnt super pleasant.
When people say to "live within your means", they don't mean "don't spend more than you make", they mean "save enough to maintain your financial security".
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I was that person until mid 2019.
Then some unexpected huge home expenses vaporized the emergency savings.
Then COVID happened and I lost my job! TWICE! This was after being an engineer at the same company for 16 years. My shit was stable AF before it all started.
Now I’m a much happier person with a much better job, but my finances are LOLfukt. Fortunately due to me trying to be careful in the past, I already owned a small cheap home in a reasonable COL area, so I can’t complain.
Now I’m a much happier person with a much better job, but my finances are LOLfukt.
Not really; you just found out why an emergency fund is important.
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Oh I extracted the full potential of my rainy day preparedness, no doubt.
But the three things in that sentence still hold true. My finances are not fucked because of the better mental state and job, they’re just fucked all on their own due to recent history. But at least I can work on it now.
It is in this one. Unfortuanlty its not easy, and any medical event, car issue, house issue, or girlfriend can wreck that in a day.
If you stay home with your parents for a year or two, you'd get plenty of savings if you're careful. I know I did.
I know in more individualistic countries not moving out by 18 or 20s has traditionally been seen as taboo, but the current housing situation makes that traditional social rule very impractical for many. Besides, from what I heard in the USA, still living at home with parents is less stigmatised than before.
My savings where wiped out buying a house. Now it’s fucking impossible between maintenance and god knows whatever else is flung at me.
Moving out at a young age is only a norm in just a handful of countries, mainly the English speaking ones. Reason being that they were more developed than the rest of the world, making it possible for them to move out when they turn 18. Poverty is a big reason why families are closer and live together for a much longer period. But many of these developed nations seem to be regressing these days, with more money flowing upwards than downwards.
I agree though. The best time to move out is after you've worked and saved up enough for a down payment for your own place. Those few years are perhaps the best opportunity to save up that most of us may never get again.
I have about $10k socked away into an HSA account from when I had a high deductible insurance plan. With an HSA you can leave the money in an investment account, you don't have to withdraw it when the cost occurs. You just need to have receipts for the amounts you withdraw so you can show them to the IRS is bed be. So I save all my receipts for doctors visits, prescriptions, OTC medicine, glasses, dental, and anything else allowed. Then I have tax free money sitting in an investment account that I can withdraw tax free if I have a real emergency.
You can also put money into a Roth IRA and you can withdraw your contributions tax free.
There's a bunch of ways to make your money work for you and still have access to it in a true emergency.
Lots of good reasons why someone might end up in debt. I got divorced and laid off. Dog needed $2k surgery to not have a terrible quality of life. Got a terrible staph infection on my chest after losing health insurance. This all happened in a four month period. I moved to a cheaper apartment, cut off any subscription aside from internet, which I need for two of my four jobs, got a cheaper phone plan, and mostly ate rice and beans every day. Still, it's taken a year just to get back to zero.
I honestly think the "6 months of salary in an emergency fund"-advice is a bit overblown and certainly not universally applicable.
An emergency fund must per definition be very liquid in order to fulfill its purpose, hence you can only really place the money in a simple savings account with a not-so-spectacular interest rate. This means that the opportunity cost of having 6 months of salary in an emergency fund is the delta of expected return on investment in a higher-yield method of savings, such as placing the money in index funds. This can be quite significant, in particular since saving up 6 months of salary is not an easy task for the average person.
If you had the money placed in investments, the money would be less liquid, and there's the chance that you may have to liquidate it during a downturn, which would of course suck a little. Consider carefully under which scenarios you would have to liquidate, though:
- Lost your job? I have unemployment insurance to cover this scenario for me, meaning that I will get 80% of my current salary for close to a year, a period during which I would have to liquidate nothing.
- Disaster strikes my home? My home insurance policy covers this more than enough for me.
- Medical emergency? I'm lucky enough to live in a country where health care is free, but I have additional health insurance on top of that as well.
- Emergency while traveling? I have great travel insurance. They cover all medical expenses and would even fly me back home post-haste in disaster scenarios.
- Other accidents where I hurt myself? You guessed it, I have insurance for that too.
Now, there's an argument to be made that these insurance policies might be a bit slow to pay out, and that I might need to be a bit more liquid to cover the expenses temporarily. I have a solution for that too - credit cards. With credit cards I can make a short-term loan that should bridge over most issues until I can either get money from any of my insurance policies, or worst case have time to liquidate some of my higher-yield investments.
So yeah, that's my plan. It does not involve 6 months of salary being invested in a low-yield savings account, because that'd lose me a lot of money. I dislike the fact that the 6 months emergency fund is basically parroted as religious gospel, and it feels like people who repeat it have not thought about the issue thoroughly.
You seem to be in a very unique situation. And to have a pretty good understanding of personal finance and of your risk appetite. What you say works for you and a few people that happen to have access to universal healthcare, what looks like four separate insurance policies, and that can manage not to fuck it up with credit cards.
6 months liquid emergency fund remains the best strategy for most people out there.
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Not a unique situation. It's pretty much the average for millions of adult to middle aged people in several countries.
Not nearly the norm globally but calling it unique is pretty ridiculous.
It's a generalized thing that is healthy advice for most people, especially Americans who have very little of a social safety net.
Stocks and mutual funds are liquid enough to act as an emergency fund; you don't need to rely on a savings account only to hold your emergency fund.
Would certainly suck if those six months worth of emergency fund had temporarily gone down to four months because of a downturn in the stock market though.
Accidentally there might also be some correlation with stock markets going down, and an emergency happening. Eg large company laying staff off.
That said you can do the math and see how much that money would return on average on etfs compared to a bank account, and decide if that's worth the risk to you.
Experts say no, I agree with them but I see your point, and it's definitely worth to challenge these suggestions.
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The only way you can have your emergency fund invested is if you have a very good credit card which can cover all your expenses for a month or two. You can then reduce your emergency fund to one month's worth so you can have cash if needed.
I had an 18 month 0% card last year. I floated a bunch of expenses on it and paid it off a few days before interest kicked in. I also earned rewards points from the card, so double win I guess.
Some say a good rule of thumb is 3–6 months of mandatory expenses depending on personal situations and it looks like you're safe with the lesser amount.
I usually hover around 3–4,5 months but have decided to increase a bit because of the current instability of everything
It's not 6 months salary, it's 6 months of expenses, although those numbers are likely close for most people now.
You could also consider a ladder of cds as an example, but then you either have to continually re-up 6 month cds or go for a year of them, each for about your monthly expenses.
I just take the 4% interest (or whatever rapidly changing amount ally bank offers me on savings since they update a lot) and roll with it. For now it's a similar ROI to renting a property without all the fuss of... Buying a property and doing the work lol.
Man, where do you live where unemployment is nearly a year at 80% of your salary? When I was unemployed here in Washington, it was six months and more like 50% of my salary. And from what I understand, Washington is a lot more generous than most states.
Sweden. You pay around $12 for the basic coverage which covers 80% of your salary up to a cap of around $2500 a month, for 250 working days. My union membership, which costs approximately $25 per month, then includes an additional coverage for if you go over the cap of $2500 a month for the basic coverage. These combined then cover you for income up to around $4500 a month. It's also possible to get additional coverage on top of that to cover incomes above this amount through the union, again for around $12 a month.
I've simplified the terms greatly, so in practice they are a bit worse - in particular, the compensation amounts get lower after a certain amount of days spent unemployed - but the general idea holds. To qualify, you need to have been employed already for a year, and you are required to look for work as a condition to get payouts on the insurance. You lose the right to payouts if you decline an appropriate job offer.
Multiple times now, I've had people on Lemmy tell me that I am either not caring about my future or not caring about my child's future because I buy myself an occasional chai latte and her an occasional smoothie or some Taco Bell food.
I hate this idea that you should deny yourself any and all pleasures in life so that you can have a decent 10-20 end-of-life years when you retire. People made fun of the avocado toast guy, but suddenly now he's got the right idea?
I'm not going to have major retirement savings if I put the maybe $20 a month at most that this costs and it makes our lives a little less miserable right now.
Yeah, generally agreed.
I think more people should actually track what they're spending, though. Sometimes what feels like "just $20 every once in a while" isn't. A coworker of mine realized he was spending a lot more than he thought on fun food and drink when he actually added it up and put it in a spreadsheet.
Not saying that's you! But actually checking your spending in detail every once in a while I think is a good idea for everyone.
I definitely track spending. I'm just tired of people acting like that. I'm talking to someone in this very thread who is saying $7.99 for a Netflix account is not something you should pay for if you're poor as if not spending $7.99 a month to make your life a little better would cover any medical bills or car repairs or anything else that might qualify as an emergency.
Their reasoning was "I was poor once and I saved money and I did fine." Too bad they mentioned that they had a color TV when they were poor, as if you could still even buy a black and white TV in the last 20 years.
I really agree with you. There needs to be a balance between saving money and living your life.
I put $25/ week into a college savings account for my 4 year old. I do weekly for dollar cost averaging, rather than trying to time the market. I started it with a few $k and it's up to about $5k right now. It's tax deductible and is invested with a target date fund. Even if the investment only keeps up with inflation, that's $25k or so in today's money. Probably enough for at least a semester or two.
Taco Bell used to be what you bought because it was dirt cheap. Is it supposed to be a luxury now?
I'm 38 and I just achieved that goal.
Don't stress about this shit (too much).
Go to concerts, take trips, eat your avocado toast. Indulge.
You're only young once, and everyone is poor in their 20's. Unless you're lucky or it's given to you.
It sounds trite, but success will come. However you measure it.
I have a little more in my account today, but last week I had the fun of saying, "I have $36 in my bank account but I'm still richer than Donald Trump."
I still consider that a victory.
But you're not. Trump is still living a lavish life full of excess, despite his debts.
Wealth is about lifestyle, not numbers.
True. But the meme is wrong. It's expenses not income.
The idea is you should be able to survive without working for 6 months.
This is to cover losing your job, injuries, illness, family emergencies.
True. But the meme is wrong. It’s expenses not income.
The idea is you should be able to survive without working for 6 months.
Yeah, I get that, that's why I meant I doubt that more than 25% of people can survive without working for 6 months. I don't think more than 25% of people have more than 6 months of expenses saved up.
56% of Americans don't have enough to cover a $1000 unexpected bill. So I'd guess less than 5% have 6 months of expenses saved.
I agree. I think is a mix of people living check to check (no choice) and bad education.
I came from no money and learned financial planning skills from the internet.
Now I'm at the point where I got an emergency fund and savings, but it took me years to get here.
I don't think it's fair to blame it on bad education. I'm pretty sure almost everybody is aware that having emergency savings is better than not having emergency savings. The cost of living keeps going up, inflation rate going way up, but salaries are just not increasing enough to keep up. Everything is becoming more expensive and people can't afford it, let alone having enough money to set aside for savings.
As far as bad education I'm referring to those growing up in poorer conditions.
Parents that live check to check and have issues with making rent, feeding the family and maintaining basics like a car and home electricity.
I grew up in this kind of environment. Financial responsibility starts at home. You follow your parents. Then at schools they dropped home economics. How to make a budget and not fall into debt.
I got real lucky with outside support because I looked for it. I also know people who wouldn't listen to me and used credit cards frivolously. Spending more than they earn over and over.
Yes everything is worse today, but 10 and 20 years ago people still made stupid financial decisions due to capitalism and ignorance.
The working class has been guided to farm wealth for the 0.1% for a long time.
I am 46 years old. I have never had enough to be able to survive without working for 6 months. Thank god for unemployment payments.
If you can't bring the savings side of the equation up, then bring the salary side down. Easy.
Yeah man I got it saved up and then some, I was able to stretch it 11 months without work most of last year. I got lucky.
Nobody else I know has that luxury.
6 month of work just sitting thete getting eaten away by inflation doesn't spund smart. Either invest that shit or boof that shit while getting your dick sucked.
It is very smart. If you lose your job or have a major expense, not having to put it on credit provides you with a lot of stability, and you don't have to pay interest.
-someone still paying off 4 months of unemployment a year ago
You can have your emergency funds in a high savings account as long as you can withdraw it without a pnealty
I have my emergency fund in a savings account with 3% interest rate. So my bank is giving me money each month for doing nothing really and I can withdraw my money whenever I want.
Bank Norwegian is currently at 3.25%. Of course at times of 4% inflation it's not enough
Around here, it's usually not at a local physical bank. My online high yield savings is currently at 4.5% though; that's where my emergency funds are.
I'm sure anyone reading this in the UK is already aware of MSE but just in case: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/savings-accounts-best-interest/#easyaccess
A quick glance suggests most of those really high ones are time-limited bonus offers, but other places are doing quite high interest in general e.g. Marcus is paying 4.75%.
I am not endorsing this because I don't have it myself and know nothing about it beyond this, but the savings account Apple introduced a year or two ago has 4.5% interest.
In germany. I don't know how long these offers will be available but some banks already reduced the interest to 1,75% or something. I just switched bank for my emergency fund. I'm trying to be above the inflation rate which is currently something around 2,5%
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Here's a few lists I might use (Finnish):
Just over 3% is common. Terms and conditions may apply. Your local selection might naturally be different.
You are barely keeping up with inflation, don't think that's an investment. That said, you are doing the right thing, keep that money available if needed.
Everything on top of 6 months expenses, you should invest in something less liquid that on the long term yields decent returns.
It's not smart to use your emergency fund as an investment. The point is that you keep your emergency fund in an savings account that has at least an interest rate like the inflation rate and you should be able to use that money any time.
I never said that I'm doing an investment with that. No idea why you mention this.
This part made me think you were saying that was an investment, sorry I misunderstood
So my bank is giving me money each month for doing nothing really
USD Inflation is ~3% per year currently, which is easy to beat with a high yield savings account. Anything more than 6 months should definitely go into an index fund though.
Living paycheck to the Monday after the paycheck. Then it's just survival until the next one.
You should have an emergency fund. You never know when something bad will happen. For all you know your house could get bulldozed or you car could get damaged by something the insurance doesn't cover
That's my problem: I start saving and then suddenly I have a huge expense and I need to empty out my savings. Happens at least every six months.
I'd argue that's proof of your emergency fund working! You were able to save enough money to cover an unexpected expense/emergency without having to go into credit card debt.
Kudos! You should feel proud of yourself!
That means it’s working. You’re doing exactly what you need to and it’s absolutely paying off!
I agree with the others, you sound like the type of person that the emergency fund is designed for.
I cook at home mostly, I don't go on vacations, my cars are both at least 8 years old, and I live in a low COL area.
I guess I could kill one of my children but I don't think that would make economic sense.
You're right. Have your smartest kid set up a Minecraft smp server that has microtransactions
You're right.
It WOULD make economic sense to sell those kids into slavery.
Why not profit from those rug rats?
Or the most common reason people dip into the emergency fund… unemployment.
Ask me how I know 😭it all worked out ok in the end but woof 6 months no income is scary shit. Save for the rainy day people!
Yeah, "advice" like this always just comes across as "well have you tried not being poor?"
If they're able to and understand that it's important, yeah. If you can't afford to save (ie can't pay basic expenses with money left over for savings), then no.
If you're spending everything you earn, then if you miss a paycheck/get fired you're screwed. If there's nothing you can cut back on to start to save money and there's not a sufficient government safety net - then that's a really dangerous spot to be in.
The first priority when it comes to financial planning is having enough saved so that if you have an unexpected expense or get fired you won't be out on the streets.
Agree with that but 6 month sound a lot to me. To me it sounds like having 4 months is already being the super careful guy that is ready for everything.
You would think that and then there's industry wide layoffs and you need to get new job training at the local community college.
There is not a hard and fast rule for how big your emergency fund should be but there are definitely a lot of folks in the personal finance community who have at least 6 months in some type of readily available account that's not tied up in 401k or other investment funds which have early withdrawal penalties.
How much you save comes down to the individuals ability to do so and how much risk they are at if they were to suddenly lose a source of steady income and how much debt they currently have. For people with a lot of ongoing expenses, it'd be smart to try and pad up some safety net so they don't have their life completely fall apart if they somehow lost their job. This also might vary if you are single income or multiple streams for the household.
6 months is probably on the higher side since there's the opportunity cost of not investing surplus money somewhere that could have a higher rate of returns. Usually money that is in emergency funds have lower interest rates as a tradeoff. And if you have upwards of 4 months or more, you can use that time to draw from other accounts for more money if you see that the emergency fund isn't enough.
Good point about opportunity cost of cash savings vs investing - could always put it in a high yield savings account and/or some of it in short term bonds to mitigate that effect. I have about 3/6 mos of my emergency fund in HYS and maybe like 2 more in matured I Bonds (would just be giving up last 3mos interest if I withdrew it and could have the money in less than a week)