It's funny that leftists call him genocide joe when Trump would be actively worse and offer additional manpower.
Complain and downvote how you like, but consider which candidate you actually have a chance of getting to agree to your point of view.
No shit, Biden is a genocidal asshole but at least he's not trump that's the whole point of the uncommitted campaign
Problem is that actions breed habits. And if it comes down to Joe and Fuckface 45, they'll likely do the same in November ... which will NOT end with Joe in office.
You mean all of America. Because it's not as simple as that. We have agreements and contracts and alliances we can't just get rid of at the drop of a hat without consequences.
We can all stand with Palestine - and yes, I do - but do you also want that happening to the US itself? You really wanna fuck with that hornet's nest?
A vote against Biden is a vote for Fuckface 45. And he's worse.
You want that? You want Fuckface 45 again? Say it.
You do not understand the US primary system.
These registered Dems, the only people who can vote in the Democrat primary, know full well the fascist guy is worse https://web.archive.org/web/20240306112504/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905 he has already said it explicitly on just the genocide of the Palestinians. And we all know that he tried to overthrow the US government and did many illegal things already.
The US can do anything it wants at the drop of a hat. That’s an appeal to authority. Israel is almost completely dependent on US trade and support, they’re literally our proxy in the Middle East. They have fought in explicit proxy wars for us already against other nations. There is plenty of leverage, which is why this movement has stayed urging Biden to end the genocide.
If you stand with Palestine, you should vote uncommitted in the Democratic primary to let the Dems know how many people actually want the killing to end. Because until it does, more and more will be killed. They literally die and are dead. A protest vote with no systemic consequences that boosts the call to end the genocide of the Palestinians is worth it, as many people have calculated.
It's funny because at this stupid stage in America, not voting for biden this November is an active vote for Trump and the redoubling and active support of Israel's genocide.
"Yay we sure helped the Palestinians by not voting for someone who continued support of a country doing genocide but has been able to be swayed away from them and causing someone who wants to outspokenly kill all Palestinians to have control and kill many times more Palestinians." Bastions of morality...
Vote for others in the primary, but vote for the D in the main election.
Who is this “they?” Anyone who is voting “uncommitted” has enough brain cells to know both candidates are bad for the world, which means they have enough brain cells to know Biden is an obvious choice in a Biden v Trump matchup.
Those people are voting uncommitted for Fuckface 45 then.
Do you understand that in the primary there is no contest between Trump and Biden? Biden’s going to get the Democratic nomination anyway, so voting uncommitted in the primary has no negative consequences in the actual election that happens in November?
Of course they understand. They just want to frame opposition to genocide as support for Trump.
This is a dumb take bred from perceived superiority.
actions breed habits
Lmao "I got to the polls in November and my muscle memory took over and I voted uncommitted in the general election, since I did it once 8 months ago I couldn't resist". This is like Dunning-Kreuger for life in general.
Or is it a "just don't do anything" enlightened centrist take?
Ivan Cantu got over 150k signatures for a stay of execution, and he's still dead. I'm not a centrist, far from it. I'm a progressive.
But I also understand game theory, psychology, and sociology (all on an admittedly amateur-ish level), as well as how First Past the Post voting works in the US. I'm 100% for a cease fire in Gaza, humanitarian aid, the Israel government to be tried for war crimes, etc. But how YOU are doing it has shown time and again that it doesn't produce results. Oh, so I guess I know a little history too.
So, for instance, you remember 2020 when George Floyd was murdered in cold blood in the streets and then the world's largest protest broke out? What happened?
What was accomplished via those protests? Did Police Brutality stop? What about the more pertinent Police Brutality of POC? Did Qualified Immunity cease? How many bad apples are still in the bunch? Police unions get busted?
We got a couple of "I'm sorry"s, and a fucking street naming.
You see, while collective action CAN do things (not much), you need to understand that this vote ain't gonna do fucking squat. You got a 100k+ votes for uncommitted? Yay. Out of 330+ million people in the US. Less than 1%
The general election has been called. And either Biden or Fuckface 45 is gonna win. By recruiting to third party, you're swaying more people to:
- NOT vote for Biden at all (which is a vote for Fuckface 45)
or - not vote AT ALL in the general election in November (which is a vote for Fuckface 45, because the Rs always vote)
I'm not voting for Fuckface 45 in the General Election. Are you?
You wanna stop the genocide today? Take to the streets with a gun in hand. Take to Israel with a gun in hand. Take to a senator's house with a gun in hand. Don't self immolate, you'll just kill one of your comrades in arms.
While I don't think everyday life should ever have a gun in hand, when you want IMMEDIATE political / wartime change, non-violence solves nothing. (this goes for protests against police brutality, bring a gun - take the mask mandate protests, they were armed, they got what they wanted)
But if you want gradual policy change: vote local, campaign local, work with a local candidate, etc.
Otherwise, you're just trying to find your friends, and you're making enemies of possible allies.
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Just because trump is an infinitely low bar doesn’t mean Biden isn’t actively supporting genocide.
I’m sick of seeing “But Trump is worse!!!!!1!” whenever there is a discussion of how fucking terrible Biden can be, especially on his candid genocide support. And the cries from the Democratic party to fall in line behind a president that is failing to support the will of the people in that party is a bit shitty, even though it is inevitable in such a hierarchical power structure.
Like, the problem isn’t “who would support genocide less” it is “why the fuck is the president supporting genocide” and the other question we should be asking is “what is causing us to be in the position that we are debating on who is the lesser evil pro genocide candidate”
Also, I’d like to point out that biden is a hardcore zionist. He will never not be a hardcore zionist. He will never be convinced to stop supporting israel, and we will lucky to even convince him to stop supporting israel until the genocide stops. Or to just call for a ceasefire now.
First pass the post says a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump. Sadly that’s how the system works. You need preferential voting to send a message of displeasure.
So this will stop and everyone will rally behind Biden after the primaries? I hope so. This one issue is horrific, and I wish there was a reasonable 'no genocide; option. There really isn't though. And the sense I get lately is more 'don't vote Biden' generically, without acknowledging the impact this could have once we're through the primaries.
This type of vote will not be called for in the general because in the general, even if Biden does not change his stance on ending the Palestinian genocide, because the fascist republican alternative is worse.
Anyone who is calling for “don’t vote Biden” in the general election is a fascist. You can disregard them as they’re very likely just Russian bots trying to sow discontent.
I see many people who keep commenting here are not in tune with the “uncommitted vote” campaign because no major news org has really covered it. They don’t cover it because it is to end the Palestinian genocide and major news orgs have held a pro-Zionist line the entire time (e.g., there was a 400,000+ anti-genocide-in-Palestine march in DC maybe a month ago, and no news orgs covered it in any meaningful way (AP had coverage downplaying it the day before and none the day of) or at all (NYT did not cover it).). This is to once more try to enact the end of a US-funded genocide via the will of the voters in a safe way, as Biden is guaranteed to win the primary.
You do not understand how the US primary system works.
This was not the general election vote where Biden will face a fascist.
This was a 2nd term president democratic primary, which the incumbent almost always sweeps. This allows for protest voting with no actual repercussions like fascists winning.
They are protesting the active genocide of the Palestinian people, it is worth the effort to try to enact change which no downsides.
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No shit thats how the system works. Its a hierarchical representative democracy with FPTP voting in a capitalist country, and we are seeing the inevitable endpoint of such a system. A system like our glorious failure of “democracy” will end in despots and fascists trying to sieze power through populism.
But you don’t need preferential voting to send a message of displeasure. There is nothing about FPTP that says you are incapable of voicing displeasure, it is done via different means than preferential voting.
The idea that a vote for biden is a vote for trump is a complete fallacy. In this failed republic, we don’t even have popular voting for the president. In many places around the country, your vote literally does not matter because of FPTP voting. If I’m unfortunate enough to live in a deep red state where there is no hope of the GOP losing, what difference does my vote make?
If I am more fortunate and live in a deep blue state, what difference does it make if I don’t vote at all? It’s incredibly unlikely biden will lose there, even if Biden is deeply unpopular amongst the voting base.
If I live in a swing state, you might then have an actual incentive to vote. But there is still the catch on what district you live in, because even in swing states there are some districts that are deel blue or deep red.
Because of the Electoral College the concept that “a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump” is complete horseshit for the majority of Americans. This is just a strategy to shame people into voting for someone they don’t like.
Not voting, or voting for third parties is the way to send displeasure with our two parties. Trying to restrict the only ways to voice displeasure is extremely unhealthy for what we claim is a democratic system. It is like taking painkillers to treat what would otherwise be treatable cancer. If you ignore the problem it will grow until it becomes untenable.
Leaving this threat open does a lot to shape policy. If that avenue was closed, the political elite class would have a less incentive to consider the needs of the working class. Considering there is a modicum of “democratic” choice in the US, if the needs are not considered, eventually the political class will make enough mistakes that people give up, and they will lose support, possibly for a long while.
Shaming people to vote is also a genuinely bad strategy. I was fucking pissed about this shit in 2016 and in 2020, even if I despise trump. Being shamed into an action is not exactly a good feeling, and having it repeatedly happen doesn’t exactly breed confidence in the system, it breeds contempt. If you are making a part of your own voting base feel contempt with you or the system, you are shooting yourself in the foot. It might have short term gains, but I worry that you will lose voters in the future.
Finally, this is the primaries. This election does not determine the outcome of the election in a given state or the nation as a whole, but it will demonstrate what could happen if Biden doesn’t change his strategy of ignoring the problem.
I'll hardcore pass on voting for a treasonous bastard. I'm already amazed that we didn't nuke the fucking planet when trump was in office. I'm not giving him a second chance.
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Same. I’m not going to vote for an christofascist cunt who wants to take my rights as a queer person, or the rights of the people I care about.
I’m simply sick of the “BuT TrUmp!!!!1” that is always shouted whenever people criticize biden. Every president is a war criminal. Biden deserves his criticism, even though trump is also culpable.
100% criticize away! I'm just getting annoyed by seeing all of the "don't vote Biden" bullshit lately.
Imo an acceptable alternative is "remember to vote for the lesser evil!"
Or even my favorite, "write your congresspersons to stop the genocide!"
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I'm gonna push back a little on that thought.
Saying "don't vote Biden" is very important, actually, and it's hardly bullshit.
First and foremost, when you are in the mindset that voting is all you can do, saying "Don't vote for Biden" opens up a great conversation about voting, democracy, racism, and pretty much any issue that is tied to the US government. These conversations are important, and must happen. There is a radical praxis to not voting, whether you'd like it or not. If voting for one of two parties is the only acceptable form of political action, than not voting, voting third party, or something else (such as setting up prefigurative structures) is a good, radical action.
Before you point this out, I do have issue with how many leftists, communists, and anarchists just skip this conversation online, or say something like "Oh, these conversations have happened before, just read this book" or some nonsense. I get that having this conversation a million times is exhausting, but it's important. You don't have to do it every time, but if you are able to jump in and take over, you should!
If this conversation is good, it should point out that the supposed "democracy" we have is not only fragile, and being taken over by fascists, but that it was really only a democracy for a small group, not the idyllic idea of the majority getting their say and representation. It should also point out that this "democracy" has been a tool used against minorities as a cudgel, bringing pain and suffering for centuries. It should point out that there are many positions that the majority of the public want, like social/single payer healthcare, yet we have a top aide to the democratic speaker of the house, telling lobbyists to not worry about it!.
Second, Biden is not entitled to any voting, and he needs to be reminded of that with the threat of non-voting, and anti-voting advocacy. The idea that someone is entitled to your vote on the basis that they are not someone (IE: the lesser evil) else is antithetical to the core concept of democracy: bringing power and representation to the people (often through majority voting). Imagine that you have two candidates in a FPTP voting system, one person that is 100% hitler, and another who is 80% hitler. It is obvious that the lesser evil is the one that is 80% hitler, but if the country consists of primarily people who want a 0% hitler candidate, how is the 80% hitler, the lesser evil candidate, a representative of the people? How does that 80% hitler candidate represent the majority of the people? Isn't that antithetical to the very concept of democracy that such a candidate can exist?
I get that it is a tactical position to vote for biden, considering that trump is so awful. I don't think it's fair to criticize someone for voting this way because it is genuinely a logical and reasonable conclusion, but I do think that the thought process that got them there needs a bit of evaluation.
Third, threatening to not vote for biden (and especially staying true to that threat) is good, actually. I've already mentioned that biden is not entitled to a vote, but it's also important to mention that biden is a human being who has the capability of acting to fix this. "Remember to vote for the lesser evil!" is, unfortunately, placing the blame for biden's actions on the individuals affected by it, rather than the person who did the actions in the first place. Thinking solely from this mindset does not hold biden accountable to his actions, and often leads to blame being placed on people for not voting against their interests.
Finally, you mention "writing to your congresspersons". I think this is a great idea, but it should not be the only mechanisms of political action aside from voting. I can safely tell you that this is often ineffective. One of my best friends was an aide to a representative in congress for a few years before and during Trump's presidency. He has been at the receiving end of a calling campaign from some bigots in my state advocating for an anti-trans bathroom bill, and he told me at some point, he stopped paying attention to it, and he was getting pissed off because it was taking up his time that could otherwise be spent working with residents of the state with other problems, such as social security, VA benefits, etc.
Since my dinner break is coming to a close, all I can really do is be that annoying leftist who shoves a book in your face and recommend a short(ish) book that I loved reading about democracy and voting, and the myths it promotes. Crimethinc.'s "From Democracy to Freedom" is freely available as a PDF online through the publisher, Crimethinc.
This will sound terrible of me, but while this was a truly wonderful and thought provoking post I am the worst person to reply to it as I fatigue quickly from replying with a respectfully long post.
That being said, I'll give the book a read! I also agree with the idea of voting 3rd party. I personally don't have such a party I agree with but if you do, I want you to vote the way you feel.
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That’s completely fine, I’ve gotten that leftist 4 hour video essay brain where I just simply use way too many words to explain myself
I think that's the point behind voting uncommitted in the primary. It's to put some heat on the candidate that actually has the potential to change their mind and do something. I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not as if I'm going to be voting for trump in the actual election and I understand how a 2 party fptp election works enough to put my vote in the "capable of having potential to stop supporting genocide" category.
The Uncommitted Movement's goal to get high uncommitted voter turnout in the primary so that Joe Biden changes his outdated views on Palestine and Israel is great.
However if people vote uncommitted in the primaries because they are convinced Biden is Genocide Joe then they aren't going to want to vote for Biden in the general election.
Anyone who thinks someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary but not realize that the fascist republican party is significantly worse than Biden for the general election is arguing in bad faith.
someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary
Telling people Biden is Genocide Joe isn't a nuanced position. People who think Joe Biden equals genocide aren't voting for him now and aren't voting for him later. An argument that ignores the inherent cognitive dissidence it would take for someone, who believes Joe Biden is directly the cause of Israel's genocide of Palestinians, to vote for Joe Biden is disingenuous.
Truth is, I'm likely going to end up voting for Biden in the fall, because for all his faults, he is infinitely better than Trump. But I want him to fucking sweat in the meantime. Because if he sweats, if he realizes he can't simply take the votes from the left for granted even as he gives nothing to us, maybe he'll fucking start giving something to us.
I have no illusions that he'll do the right thing out of the goodness of his heart, but perhaps he'll do the right thing out of fear of losing.
It's just a shame we can't make him sweat without making the millions who'll be totally fucked if he loses sweat too.
God I wish there was room for an actual threat from the left instead of "well I guess we'll make everyone who isn't wearing a maga hat worry about whether they'll be up against a wall by 2028"
I wish the party would quit taking advantage of the looming threat of fascism in order to be unresponsive to the concerns of its base.
It’s not a nuanced position, there is genocide of the Palestinian people occurring in Gaza literally right now. They’re actually dying and the US props up the country doing it, it’s clear Biden could and can do much more to stop the genocide. So some people call him “Genocide Joe”, people are being murdered, I assume they think something so striking is fitting. Whole families have been wiped off the face of the earth, some people get radicalized by that I am sure.
Now people who do think he is “Genocide Joe” will not vote for the other guy https://web.archive.org/web/20240306112504/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905 . Argument is bunk, hell the fascist guy said he’d support completing the genocide completely while Biden holds a line of “secretly I want it to stop” which is “vaguely” better. And if they don’t vote for either because of support for the genocide on both sides, they are not people who care about the country and definitely don’t have well constructed opinions on anything else. (e.g., couldn’t rely on them for a Dem vote if no genocide occurring)
So this argument is just wrong. The crap some Dems wish for, that people shouldn’t protest Biden’s policies at all or else all will fall is inherently flawed - the US democracy is built on free speech and advocating for change. And when a people are being genocided by a US proxy, many think it is worth it to rock the boat in a safe way.
So this argument is just wrong. The crap some Dems wish for, that people shouldn’t protest Biden’s policies at all or else all will fall is inherently flawed - the US democracy is built on free speech and advocating for change. And when a people are being genocided by a US proxy, many think it is worth it to rock the boat in a safe way.
I fundamentally agree that we should rock the boat and get Biden to change his policies. What I don't agree with is calling Biden, Genocide Joe.
it’s clear Biden could and can do much more to stop the genocide
I also fundamentally agree with this. This is the nuance. Biden has the ability to stop this conflict right now. So we need to pressure him to make that happen. As soon as possible, I should add. I have no doubt Israel's current fascist government will make good on it's threats to attack Rafah at the start of Ramadan. That's the 11th of this month, next Monday afternoon. This is all completely lost with the Genocide Joe nickname.
And if they don’t vote for either because of support for the genocide on both sides, they are not people who care about the country and definitely don’t have well constructed opinions on anything else. (e.g., couldn’t rely on them for a Dem vote if no genocide occurring)
They might reasonably think they shouldn't vote for either candidate, even when they need to be voting for the lesser evil. It's considerably harder to make that distinction when one candidate is Donald Trump and the other is Genocide Joe. We should be making the distinction between the candidates as clear as possible. The last thing I want to here on and after election day this November is that people couldn't tell the difference between Gush and Bore.
I’m not out to plaster Biden as “Genocide Joe” personally. But I would like him to use his influence to at least genuinely try to end the genocide so no one wants to call him that. At least Trump just said he would “finish the problem”, makes it clear he won’t be better for whoever is single-issue on the Palestinian genocide
We do need unity, I will scream for eternity if Biden loses. I want the genocide stopped so that we can concentrate on preventing the fall of the US. People are dying in droves and it needs to stop, so protest. But again, I will implode if Biden loses. So I do understand why so many people are against the protest because it breaks unity, and I understand why people are so worried. We in the US are facing the end with a single election, it’s grim
In my experience most of the people calling him genocide Joe can't vote in US elections.
But yes, their goal is to get Trump elected.
I think the people in this thread aren't Russian bots. That's why I think it's worth arguing with them. If we want Biden to win in November, then calling him Genocide Joe isn't helping.
I don't think Lemmy has the cultural cachet to warrant actual Russian Trolls, we get the propaganda second hand from useful idiots.
While I think a lot of this is Russia, I think Qatar is ultimately the main offendor here.
Next time you see a post on here linked to al Jazeera reporting in Palestine, just point out that all jazeerah is technically a wing of the same political apparatus that Hamas is. If you were to do this, you might notice that within 24 hours, downvoting of your comment might equal more than 50℅ of all activity in that thread, almost as if people were coming to that post solely to downvote.
You might also notice that for the people who do respond to you, they will almost never address anything you actually say, but appear to have prompts based off what specific keywords you hit. Or you might notice a flurry of accounts all responding as if they are the person already engaged in conversation with you, but they all have different screen names. Almost as if they are writing their replies directly from your posting history rather than their own account in boxes.
The propaganda machine is here, and I suspect the P2P nature of our system is going to make this platform the least able to moderate it out once we reach a critical mass of people.
Now, thankfully there is only 35,000 of us here, so we are such a low priority that there aren't too many bad actors here yet.
If I write you a message, you get an icon in your private message inbox allowing you to know I responded.
However, if you are signed into a sock account, or even multiple accounts, you might forget which account you are currently signed into, and instead of waiting to be notified (because Lemmy has a bit of a lag), you instead are refreshing my profile, you might just respond directly to me from there, even if you aren't in the right account.
Actual damaging propaganda will occur on the mainstream sites, especially Twitter, via the RUSKIES to drive support from Biden in the general. We must all do our part to prevent votes for fascists (Trump, any republican at all at this point)
This is me-me is just commentary on a safe protest vote with a vilifying tagline to garner attention. But the protest vote is to end the US-funded genocide of the Palestinian people by the country of Israel, which is a very worthy goal.
Proof that the majority of accounts using Palestinians to sow division among democrats in an election year can't vote in US elections?
The only way I could possibly prove that to you is if I only communicated with people after photographing their ID and then sending all of that to you.
You can also keep watch on the accounts who post and comment on al Jazeerah links.
I would say that any time a "leftist" posts an English language edition of a right-authoritarian state media in a positive fashion, chances are good that account should be saved and watched from time to time.
No, I just pointed out that you set up an unmeetable threshold to be willing to accept my experience.
If you aren't willing to trust a person's experience as genuine (even if their conclusion about said experience is wrong) unless they have collected data on 35,000 people behind the accounts on 1 website, that's entirely on you.
I can say that there is a boomer on Lemmy, if you are really interested, you could follow the accounts who seem to show up a lot, bullying anybody who disagrees with him.
Biden supports Netanyahu's genocide. He isn't the direct cause, but he's circumvented Congress in order to sell him weapons, and Biden's administration has gone to bat for Netanyahu multiple times at the UN.
Biden should stop supporting genocide.
However if people vote uncommitted in the primaries because they are convinced Biden is Genocide Joe then they aren’t going to want to vote for Biden in the general election.
If he changes policy, why not? People can make mistakes. Ideally, I'd rather not support someone who has such a past history and I'd be skeptical that the change is a long-term change rather than just trying to appeal to voters in the short-term, but given the other likely outcome, someone it certainly would be a lot better outcome.
Genocide Joe? The US isn't committing genocide, it isn't even a proxy war. It completely adds a level of responsibility on Biden that isn't his to bare. I'm not saying he has none, but that's farcical.
The US has an outsized influence on Israel. The US bankrolls Israel, and provides weapons. The US provides $4 billion annually for Israel to buy weapons, guaranteed cash for the military. The US is the main trading partner with Israel and provides loans with really low rates. US firms open factories in Israel (like Intel) via direct subsidies to boost the Israel economy. Edit: this was just ran today https://web.archive.org/web/20240000000000*/https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
The US is clearly in a proxy war with many factions in the Middle East via Israel, as the US props up and enables Israel. The US literally was in a proxy war with the Soviet Union when Israel and Egypt were duking it out. Israel being the US’s proxy in the Middle East did not end just because the Soviet Union ended.
The US (and Biden) has major responsibility, is directly linked, and could exercise a lot of the influence the US pays for to halt the genocide of the Palestinians.
Yeah, I know all that stuff. Ally ≠ genocide by America and half that shit you said isn't even relevant. USSR proxy war? And? Israel was a weapons supplier and mule for the US's. So was Egypt. What are you on about?
Still, some responsibility, yeah.
I laid out the evidence that the US is in a proxy war with Hamas via Israel (and the entire Gaza population because the country of Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people), as you said the US is not in a proxy war.
So I gave plenty of relevant info that the US heavily props up Israel, making them a proxy since they will do the US’ will as the US ensures Israel does not economically collapse.
Then I gave evidence that Israel was in an actual proxy war when the US had a near peer, the Soviet Union. The US and Soviet Union duked it out via their proxies, Israel and Egypt. The MiGs did so poorly that the Soviet Union actually sent their own pilots in since they assumed the Egyptians were awful https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Attrition but those MiGs were up against F-4 Phantoms and you can fathom who kept Israel well supplied with everything they needed during the various wars.
The US is egregiously responsible for the genocide since it provides at least half of the military budget of Israel right now, if not more, and Israel is literally a proxy of the US’ will in the Middle East and has been for decades.
Edit: the genocide is very bad right now and needs to stop. Hence people made a safe protest vote, because anything is better than nothing when already 30,000+ Palestinian civilians have been killed.
Woah, with how much the US does for Israel, it almost seems like Israel controls the largest political lobby in the US!
Oh wait.
You do not understand the US primary system.
People are driven by the genocide of the Palestinians to stop it. The title is jarring, divisive, and highly critical on purpose: 30,000+ Palestinian civilians are dead and counting. Biden has not done enough to end the genocide that the US enables, hence he is targeted by this me-me.
The uncommitted vote in the 2nd term incumbent US Democrat primary, which this me-me depicts, is a safe way to draw attention to the significant need for the US to exercise its power and end the genocide. Biden is not running against anyone with credible support, he will sweep the nomination guaranteed as he is a popular president.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general. If you see such a call, that is actually republican astroturfing or Russian bots at work. Anyone sane and rational is well aware the fascist republicans are worse, even if Biden does not act to end the genocide - as the fascists have already said they would “complete the mission”.
you don't think calling the man desperately attempting to pull israel back Genocide Joe is gop astroturfing?
like you can assemble an entire argument about the primary process but ignore that aspect?
goddamn that's a useful idiot
He has not been desperately trying to pull Israel back, and people with a modicum of critical thinking skills have properly identified that he has not and are urging him to do so. That is not astroturfing, that is a fact and that is why people are pushing for him to use his outsized influence to end the genocide. Not just talk and send more weapons to kill Palestinian civilians. You can see why people might call him that, they want the genocide to end now, before more Palestinians are killed.
You are the useful idiot. 30,000+ civilians have been murdered, it’s a crime against humanity and it must stop. Do not urge it on by being desperately uninformed.
I do not have the time to type new forms of the same info for everyone who wanders into 196 that are clearly ignorant of how the US primary system works, what the uncommitted vote symbolically means, and why people are so adamant for the end of the Palestinian genocide.
People calling this me-me tankie, anti-American, anti-democracy, so many things. This is just a me-me that riffs on the uncommitted vote movement and was made by someone who STRONGLY feels the genocide needs to end (because thousands and thousands of civilians have already been killed) and they feel so strongly they typed “Genocide Joe”.
There are ways to stop a genocide that isn't to use a far fetched implied self harm or threat to elect a clinically insane criminal due to fumbling a plant strategy to dismantle the only threat to said criminal
aw sweet, genocide denial reply!
(/s, i am being facetious to prove a point of how rediculous it is to throw accusations at the slightest disagreement)
How about Genocidal GOP or Genocidal 45
Language and words have great power. Walking around attaching the word genocide to a man who has at worse not done enough in a very complex situation will cause great harm to the electorate. You may be propping up the uncommitted vote, but not everyone will understand that, many may just see the genocide and not vote for Biden ever or worse vote for the orange idiot.
Meanwhile you have politicians who will kill Americans with their policies. And you have a potential future president who would put boots on the ground in Gaza and do just about whatever they could to see Ukraine returned to Russia.
Words have power. A simple phrase will stick more than the meaning behind it. There is a reason crooked Hilary worked so well, and no one can tell you why she might be crooked beyond her emails and Benghazi. Even then they only know those words, they don't know the meaning behind them. We need all of the votes we can get in November.
i mean i guess?
counterpoint: “sleepy joe” was around long before the 2019 general election and the dude still got into office. and that was a powerful phrase too.
i’m not down with what your argument boils down to, that we shouldn’t criticize politicians because it risks elections. this is a GENOCIDE happening. it’s not like this name came up for funsies. america has long been in the business of funding attrocities, and i have no shame in calling on Biden to change that.
The difficulty, in this particular case, is that the alternative is a President who will even more aggressively support Israel's genocide.
Like, I get it. The idea of voting for a party and a president that are actively supporting genocide feels morally reprehensible.
But the alternative will, without question, be so much worse. At least the Democrats can, to some degree, be pressured on this issue. Trump will take the opportunity to murder Brown people and gleefully run with it to the ends of the earth, and along the way he'll burn down what's left of American democracy just for good measure.
This is, quite literally, the trolley problem. You either have to be actively complicit in some amount of horror, or a passive bystander to an even greater atrocity, placating yourself with the knowledge that while more people have died as a direct result of your choices, at least it wasn't your hand on the trigger.
There is no good option here, and there is no morally clean option here. It's awful, it fucking sucks, it's not a choice anyone should ever be forced to make. But for every American, it's the choice in front of them now.
i guess the trolley problem rang true for others here so i won’t dig on that too hard, but it’s not really the trolley problem at all because it’s not a binary choice.
one of those third choices being exactly the topic of this post, wherein voters have used the primary as a way to make their positions heard. will it work? who knows, but at least the uncommited movement are making a choice such that their votes are in no way passive complicity.
No, it's a still a binary choice in the end. Whatever people do before election day or after it, on election day their choices will be "Vote for the less bad genocide enabler" or "Vote in a way that ultimate helps the much worse genocide enabler gain power" (and that includes not voting).
None of which means that people should stop putting pressure on Biden's government to end the genocide. Part of the argument for why Biden is the less bad choice is precisely that it is more likely that he can be affected by public pressure on this issue. So yes, absolutely, apply that pressure. But be careful how you do it, because the danger, as others have pointed out in this thread, is that once you create this mini-avalanche of "Genocide Joe" negative publicity around Biden, you won't be able to stop it before November.
I don't know where the line is there. It's a very difficult path to tread correctly.
Sure it’s a binary choice “in the end” but I have never been discussing “in the end”. I and OP are looking at the primaries. Now.
The primaries are an example of voters getting the opportunity to untie as many people from the less populous track as possible. Then, down the line, they get the choice to flip the switch or not.
Limiting your mindset to in the end statements is doomerism. I don’t disagree with any of your statements but you’re just looking at things from a perspective I don’t find altogether useful.
And what happens if, as a direct result of the way this campaign was conducted during the primaries, Biden ends up losing? (say, because the GOP somehow latch onto this Genocide Joe thing and turn into a Swiftboat that drags his whole campaign down just enough for Trump to squeak a win).
In that hypothetical scenario would you feel that the right choices were made?
See, no matter which way you come at this, in the end you're still stuck in the trolley problem.
The point is, if you're not considering these actions now in the context of what impact they might potentially have when you get to that in the end point, then you're driving at night without the lights on.
That's not me saying "Don't do it." That's me saying "Think very carefully about how you do it."
as soon as the GOP starts caring about genocide in its messaging hell has frozen over and we might be saved lmao.
so yeah i think the right choices would have been made but i hope you recognize how absurd that hypothetical is.
If you'll allow a pretty silly continuation of your metaphor, I think a lot of those people who don't like either option of "pull the lever" or "don't pull the lever" would rather move people from the track and let the trolly go on than just sit there and watch people die. Sure, there's people who would rather take apart the tracks so people can't continually be bound to them, and there's also people who would rather take apart the train, but I think the most vocal critics would be fine with going back to holding their nose and voting for Biden if he just stopped supplying arms to perpetuate a genocide (as well as stopped vetoing UN resolutions for cease fire). That's why there's such a vocal push to no longer be complicit in genocide- to get Biden to take people off the track (there will still be people on the track for a while since we've sent enough weapons to last a while and even after our weapons run out, there'll still be people on the track, but at least we won't be putting them there). But it's honestly exhausting seeing Biden flirt with absorbing ex-nikki haley voters rather than even look at the left to help him stay in power.
Though that being said, there's probably more Nikki haley voters than leftists in this country (I say this as a leftist), so I guess it's a fine strategy if his goal is to win, but expecting leftists and antifascists to be happy with our continual march rightward is silly.
I am not championing calling Biden that, but these types of arguments are dismissive and downplay the reason he is being construed with genocide.
There is an actual genocide of the Palestinian people occurring now. 30,000+ are dead and they have absolutely no way to escape or protect themselves. People get radicalized by that, people get angry, people make up a shocking and critical name for Biden.
Biden needs to do everything he can to end the genocide, so that people will no longer have a reason to trot out that monicker.
Anyone who thinks someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary but not realize that the fascist republican party is significantly worse than Biden for the general election is arguing in bad faith. And you’ve already linked to the fascist saying he would “complete the mission”, he’s told whoever is actually a single-issue-voter on the Palestinian genocide that he will be worse. People are dying, and it is clear that a vote for Biden in the general is the best way for the genocide to end (if it does not before the general).
What's with all the tankies recently? If they wanted to change things for the better they would organize and vote for biden, even if he sucks. The organizing is the important part anyways, voting is just damage control.
EDIT: In case it was unclear, I do not mean organize to vote for biden.
EDIT: I am an idiot. This is a primary. Don't vote for biden if there is a better candidate.
People are organizing the uncommitted campaign to get Biden to stop giving billions to support an active genocide
But he's going to win via the Spoiler Effect if people keep this third party shit up.
A vote against Biden is a vote for Fuckface 45.
Until we get rid of First Past the Post voting, at least.
the meme is about a primary election in which Democrats are running against Democrats. no one partaking in this movement is planning to vote 3rd party. you are making uninformed statements, shadow boxing with a situation that doesn’t exist.
the biden administration is currently complicit in genocide. maybe if it wants to survive it should consider not being complicit in genocide. 🐛
Double negative there with the don't aren't, but to answer your question we believe that the people voting in DNC Primaries are going to vote DNC in the general. Anybody who doesn't probably isn't informed enough to be a part of the noncommitted movement to begin with.
Ok. And? As do I.
But I also understand how voting 3rd party is a vote against Biden, and due to the Spoiler Effect, is a vote for Fuckface 45.
If you vote for Biden in the primary and not uncommitted or another candidate, you stand against Palestine, plain and simple. Why the fuck is people shutting up and falling in line so important to you when that means letting biden aid and allow genocide? Rhetorical question btw
?? Unionize what ?? and this is actually a vote against fascism. Israel’s Zionist gov is very fascist and is committing active genocide against a people they view as 2nd class. This vote is getting the US government to use its outsized influence on Israel to end the Palestinian genocide.
The US primary election during an incumbent’s 2nd term reelection is the only place to safely vote like this on a national level in the US’s two party/first past the pole system. The incumbent is guaranteed to sweep, so people who care to enact a much needed end to genocide can vote to show their support for ending Palestinians being murdered.
(In the US, the term unionize is tied to worker groups acting as a collective bargaining unit and not tied to political movements)
I am very much pro palestine. I'm sorry I was not aware this was a primary, in that case voting against biden makes a lot more sense. I meant unionize in the normal way, as you defined it. Unions are an excellent place to also organize protests etc. Unions are absolutely tied to political movements. Here in norway they are/were associated with the workers party, a social democratic party, however they (the party) have been drifting farther and farther towards the center over the years.
I've seen people discus the election and no one brought up that it was a primary, so I foolishly assumed it wasn't.
Ah! Yes this protest vote is symbolic and people will not make the same for the general (real). I understand your and many others’ great worry over the protest vote. No one sane and rational would call for this protest vote for the general election when the alternate (as many others in other countries are well aware, as are we here) is the demise of the US.
Unions have not been a significant force in the US for decades. They’re at least on the up and up recently as the cost of living has skyrocketed. Glad they’re strong there :) hope they won’t drift too wrong
It is a grim time in the US, thanks for your interest in us! We must prevail over fascism, we will try, and hopefully we can end the genocide in Palestine while we’re at it. Some people feel it’s “too much”, but they’re being killed rapidly there, people needed to protest where they could.
where are you from? who taught you what these words mean? tankie? unionize? you know those words have specific applications which don’t match the context in which you are using them? are you aware of how primaries work in US elections?
/genuinely asking because your behavior is very confusing.
my apologies, whenever I've seen people discus the election they didn't mention this was a primary. In that case obviously do not vote for biden.
bruh ok just like be careful what you’re saying with authority, maybe don’t talk with so much confidence about things you self admittedly don’t understand lol
Voting for president is damage control.
Real action is local. And voting local is far more influential in the long run.
"Tankie" is when you don't vote for a candidate who supports genocide.
The state of the online "tankie" discourse has never been worse.
They has a hammer and sickle in their username, a symbol most socialists have abandoned because of tankies.
I personally prefer the socialist rose over the hammer and sickle and the red star, however. Those sorts of symbols, to me at least, evoke the very agrarian-centric revolutions we associate with communism/socialism that came with the side effect of purging intellectuals (as in the USSR, DPRK, PRC, DK/Cambodia etc).
I once asked what someone meant by it and I got multiple replies from different people with distinct opposite definitions.
Yeah? So do I. But how do none of you understand game theory? You are not sending a message by not voting for biden.
You do not understand the US primary system, in it only the Democrats are running against each other. Biden is popular and will win, the uncommitted vote is to show how many people care deeply about ending the genocide of the Palestinians. It is safe because there are no fascists as front runners in the US democrat primary.
Due to the two party system/first past the post the US primary is the only safe place to show discontent via vote on a national level. (And only during a 2nd term year)
The genocide of the Palestinians is a very, very horrendous action that is still taking place as I type. This has motivated a significant chunk of people to protest vote, in a way that does not enable fascists
I love how not voting for a politician who doesn’t represent my values is a bad thing. The founding fathers would puke if they saw how things are ran today.
I can't even tell anymore whether this meme is pro-Democrat or pro-Republican, anti-American, anti-Semitic, post-ironic or just cursed.
It really does get confusing. But 196 isn't the most serious instance so I just let it slide, give it a lil downvote and go about my business.
You do not understand the US primary system.
This me-me is anti-genocide. How could it be anti-Semitic? Anti-American? Insane you could reach for those.
People are driven by the genocide of the Palestinians to stop it. The title is jarring, divisive, and highly critical on purpose: 30,000+ Palestinian civilians are dead and counting. Biden has not done enough to end the genocide that the US enables, hence he is targeted by this me-me.
The uncommitted vote in the 2nd term incumbent US Democrat primary, which this me-me depicts, is a safe way to draw attention to the significant need for the US to exercise its power and end the genocide. Biden is not running against anyone with credible support, he will sweep the nomination guaranteed as he is a popular president.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general. If you see such a call, that is actually republican astroturfing or Russian bots at work. Anyone sane and rational is well aware the fascist republicans are worse, even if Biden does not act to end the genocide - as the fascists have already said they would “complete the mission”.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general.
oh yah after labeling him Genocide Joe there's no call to bahahaahaha
did your parents drop you on your head?
Are you from the US and do you understand the non committed vote movement? It has explicit goals, to get a tally-able amount of people who want the Palestinian genocide to end.
So the guy who made the me-me called him “Genocide Joe”, that’s not representative of the entire the non committed vote movement. But some do call him that, as you have seen, and they call him that with reason. It’s a polarizing monicker to draw attention to the 30,000+ dead and counting. They want it to stop, those are 30,000+ civilians dead in systematic genocide. They will not call him that if he genuinely tries to end the genocide by pressuring Israel like the US is fully set up to do (the US funds the majority of Israel’s military and the US props up the Israeli economy).
Try harder to be human, it’s not about the name people call some guy, it’s the people dead and dying who have no escape and no protection.
How could it be anti-Semitic? Anti-American?
If I were a Russian propagandist tasked with eroding support for Biden and reducing US influence in the middle east, this wouldn't be a bad meme to post.
Support for Biden’s actions on the topic of the Palestinian genocide has long been negligible among those who do not want to see a peoples murdered. This uncommitted vote movement is just one more form of protest, among many. This is not the start of the anti-genocide protests. But people with any sane rational are well aware Biden will be better than the fascist alternative, come the general election.
And how is US influence in the Middle East reduced? The US props up Israel, if the US uses its paid-for influence to stop the genocide now, Israel will still be dependent on US assistance and 30,000+ civilians and most of Gaza has already been destroyed - a significant destruction of the Palestinian open air prison is already done. Israel will continue to be a US proxy.
Now not stopping the genocide is giving Iran undue influence and is reducing the US’ influence in the Middle East since the majority of the peoples in the Middle East can very easily empathize with the Palestinians’ plight.
Not ending the genocide now (and before) is detrimental to US interests and the people who are fucking dead
Anyone that throws around "Genocide Joe" is a fascist that's trying to undermine the actual presidental election.
People are driven by the genocide of the Palestinians to stop it. The title is jarring, divisive, and highly critical on purpose: 30,000+ Palestinian civilians are dead and counting. Biden has not done enough to end the genocide that the US enables, hence he is targeted by this me-me.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general. If you see such a call, that is actually republican astroturfing or Russian bots at work. Anyone sane and rational is well aware the fascist republicans are worse, even if Biden does not act to end the genocide - as the fascists have already said they would “complete the mission”.
Yeah I just copy and pasted shit I’ve said to others cause people just keep saying the same uninformed shit. People are dying, and the poster is clearly very moved by their plight. It must end, hence the uncommitted vote protest
can we stop calling people who do the bare minimum to criticize the incumbent president fascist?
go ahead, tell them you disagree. explain your position and reasoning. i get it, you are afraid of the farther reaching effects of such messaging.
but please also get it through your head that there is a genocide happening, and some people happen to be taking that seriously. people are fucking dying. stop with the name calling and gross stereotyping.
The uncommitted movement presents a safe and effective avenue for voters to voice dissatisfaction with President Biden’s policies, particularly with the Israel-Hamas conflict. By doing so in the primary, voters can signal discontent without risking a Republican victory in the general election. The purpose is to send a wake-up call to the Biden administration that it is failing to address issues and effectively engage with the party, vis a vis that Biden is enabling a genocide.
To me it seems pragmatic and meaningful while still providing space for broader party unity and success. I don’t see how this is being compared with tankie sentiment? Someone might need to ELI5.
edit: one of the accounts i’m seeing exhibit this behavior literally admitted they think anyone who uses the hammer and sickle icon is a tankie. so there we go lol.
I think people calling this tankie don’t understand what a tankie is and don’t understand the primary process in the US.
Tankie = authoritarian communist, they’re down to clown with genocide (ask em about holodomor, tankies will tell you it didn’t happen or the Soviet gov didn’t mean it as a purposeful genocide or some other shit)
Primary process in the US = only Dems vote for Dems, voting uncommitted in just the Democratic presidential primary shows “against genocide” popularity as Biden’s team have good estimates of how many Dems should have voted for him.
Thus the campaign to get people to vote uncommitted in the primary is a way to show Biden directly how many people do not support the US supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people. Which is antithetical to tankie sentiment. And since this is a primary, it is a strong way to show anti-genocide vote numbers without enabling the fascist republican party.
Anyone who thinks someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary but not realize that the fascist republican party is significantly worse than Biden for the general election is arguing in bad faith.
wow ok thanks for validating me i thought i was losing reality for a second.
it sucks cuz tankies are really a terrible force but users just throwing that word around like it’s a frisbee (and for some reason getting dozens of upvotes?) just devalues it and makes this community look stupid
I told myself I wasn't going to get wrapped up in any fights over this conflict when it started because no one will ever back down, and I've already gone too far. See it as a cop-out if you like, that's fine, but I cannot continue one way or the other.
My stance on this conflict is:
"I'm German. I'm gonna sit my ass down and shut the fuck up before I accuse Jews of genocide."
And wach our government support a genocide. Rights always come with duties. The right to vote is the biggest duty in modern society. And being German is no excuse. Our national history should serve as reminder never to look away. Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit for everyone.
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit for everyone.
Ah yes, German unity and law for everyone. This sounds familiar...
Bro its our anthem. Recht also means justice. And it's nice that you let out the freedom part. Being like "ew ah sounds like nazi" whenever someone says stuff that would be totally normal for other countries is absolutely braindead. We get it haha wery original another Nazi joke. Haven't heard that in a while, funny.
The Israel government isn't "Jews" and to equivocate them is unironically racist. Right now the Israel government is committing a mass genocide against Palestinians. There are many many Jewish people that don't support this. They are literally attempting to make Israel an ethnostate by eradicating the other people that live there.
If you have any ethical thought processes within you, take them and follow to the logical path that the genocide of the Palestinian people is wrong.
This is not a “fights over this conflict”, Palestinians are being murdered in the thousands. Genocide must be prevented, especially when the US is directly funding it in a very significant way and has the influence to end it. Hence this protest vote in a completely safe 2nd term incumbent Democrat-only primary, which is another attempt to try to get those in control of the US government to heed the will of the people.
You do not understand the US primary system.
People are driven by the genocide of the Palestinians to stop it. The title is jarring, divisive, and highly critical on purpose: 30,000+ Palestinian civilians are dead and counting. Biden has not done enough to end the genocide that the US enables, hence he is targeted by this me-me.
The uncommitted vote in the 2nd term incumbent US Democrat primary, which this me-me depicts, is a safe way to draw attention to the significant need for the US to exercise its power and end the genocide. Biden is not running against anyone with credible support, he will sweep the nomination guaranteed as he is a popular president.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general. If you see such a call, that is actually republican astroturfing or Russian bots at work. Anyone sane and rational is well aware the fascist republicans are worse, even if Biden does not act to end the genocide - as the fascists have already said they would “complete the mission”.
Maybe you should change the US policy on Israel. Your election and millions of voters who will sit at home depend on it.
What everyone is missing is we voted for Joe in 2020 knowing full well how he would act toward Isreal. If you voted in 2020 you knew or you were ignorant. We knew the stakes. Want to go back on it now??? That's a mistake.
Down ballot is so much more important than that asshole.