And as a Jewish person, I can vouch for this not being antisemitic. Jew does not equal Israeli or vice-versa. This is an Israeli genocide.
I was planning on deliberately starving some Palestinian children to death or possibly cutting power to a NICU in a Palestinian hospital.
Does that count?
Unserious answer:
If you haven't murdered and maimed entire families you are literally Hitler.
•
I meant the response of the person in the screenshot. I am fully with the sign and do not consider myself antisemitic.
ETA: just realized that was posted by an actual (?) organization.
Yup, 100% with the sign. Last I checked, it's not like in order to be Jewish you have to kill children, in fact I'm pretty sure the religious texts promote love and compassion. Therefore saying "I fucking hate child killers" is not synonymous with "I don't like Jewish people" because that venn diagram is not a circle, and child killers and sponsors of genocide are not a religious group.
I'm on the opposite side of the world to the conflict, a large number of synagogues and Jewish groups in my country are flooding to social media to condemn the needless deaths, and speak out against the actions of both Israel and Hamas on how they have both decimated innocent lives. So I'm in agreement with my local Jewish community and support what they are doing, and I don't see how that could be antisemitic.
•
They forgot the disclaimer:
Why doesn't my embed animate? It's converted to *webm upon upload?
still image link if webm doesn't work for you
•
Antisemitism to Palestinian support is like misandry to feminism. Yeah, some people might be guilty of it (and those who are, misunderstand the latter ideologies), but it's way overrepresented in opposing media, who is often guilty of such issues itself.
•
Also "Stop Killing Children" or "Demand a Ceasefire Now" aren't "pro-Palestinian" messages, they're anti-killing messages.
Just because the children being killed happen to be Palestinian doesn't make that a pro-Palestinian message. It can be a general message that is applicable to whoever's children happen to be getting killed right now.
If someone says "stop the attacks on civilians now", how do you even know if they're talking about Gaza, Ukraine or both?
•
I'd argue that if they put up a Palestinian flag, it's clear that Palestine is being referred to.
In principle, though, I agree with your first point
•
Sure, they're referring to Palestine in this case. But, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're fully "pro-Palestine". They're undoubtedly pro Palestinian kids. But, that doesn't mean that they side with Palestine over Israel in the general case.
Yes but anti-semitism has been co-opted to apply only to Jews (erasure of millions of other semitic people, that is, people who speak a semitic language other than Hebrew) just like the Holocaust has come to mean only the Jewish victims of Nazi genocide, which is erasure of the 5 million other victims in the various groups that were killed by Nazis.
•
That’s an invalid (strikethrough: dictionary) etymology argument, and you know it. To clarify, when I said “antisemitism” I meant “a discriminatory attitude towards Jews” or something along those lines.
Edit: this is an etymology argument, not a dictionary one; most dictionaries probably agree with me. I don't know how or why the word antisemitism came to be used to refer to Jews specifically, but surely it's been this way for most of its history.
Either way, the most authoritative meaning of a word is that which was intended by the one who uttered it.
Calling opposition to genocide antisemitic is one of the most anti-semitic things one could do - it paints genocide as inherent to Judaism - a ludicrous position that is about the best reason one could find to justify exterminating the Jews.
I think is way more antisemitic to try to relate the jewish people with that genocide
I don't think anyone relates the Jewish people to that genocide, they relate the state of Israel to that genocide, because it does.
•
My understanding is that the person who originally called criticism of the Israel gov 'antisemitism' is the one equating Jewish people with the state of Israel
That's the point they are making actually, that Jewish people that call for antisemitism in those cases like the Australian Jewish organization and tons of Israel supporters, by saying that being against genocide is antisemitic, they are saying that genocide is semitic, which is a very dangerous statement.
In my opinion, those that make such ludicrous statement are the antisemitic ones, for calling the Jewish religious group genocidal.
Clearly the Australian Jewish Association is relating Jewish people to genocide, otherwise they would not have called that statement by a shopkeeper in New Zeeland anti-semitic but would instead have said it to be anti-Israel.
They're directly saying that being against this Genocide is being against Jews, which is most definitelly "relating Jewish people to that Genocide"
It's anti-semitic to ask you to stop killing children who lived their whole lives unable to leave their borders and were not even born when Hamas was "elected" in their reigon?
Is it anti-semitism to advocate to stop a "war" which you waged against a besieged province inside your country which you are controlling their water, electricity, food, fuel, and all natural resources, and starving amd killing and crippling for all life children and women who are over %70 of the victims?
I mean, that's pretty much what the Australian Jewish Association is implying here, isn't it?
Now, I realize Israel and it's people have had a long and storied history of being persecuted by others, however, there's a limit to how far you can stretch that sort of "woe is us" pity when the modern history of the country most representative of modern Judaism -- at least, that's how I kind of thought of it, a sort of "Jewish Vatican/Mecca", correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not Jewish -- will be recorded as not only actively engaged in committing such terrible acts (no matter the enemy), but is proud of it. I could see them trying to deny or "deny" it, you know, pay these IDF atrocities lip-service and give commanders a light finger-wag, that sort of thing. It's the Israeli government after all, anyone who thinks they don't have a massive intelligence apparatus shaping opinions at home and abroad is a fool -- but for so many to be as proud of it as they are, god. I should be over this by now, but it's just... upsetting. Make no mistake, the acts they commit today will be written about in the history textbooks, and they will be used to justify further future antisemitism -- anyone who doesn't fear another Adolf Hitler hasn't been paying attention to the fucking news. This cycle of hate shouldn't continue, and yet I see no end in sight.
Israel is not representative of modern Judiasm. It's representative of modern settler colonialism. There are a lot of Jews who have opposed the existence of Israel since the idea of Zionism came up. Don't conflate Judiasm with colonialism in it's name.
The problem is that the Israeli government itself deliberately conflates itself/Zionism with Judiasm as a whole specifically so they can screech "antisemitism!!!!!!" at every single criticism they receive regardless of whether or not is valid.
This is not only bullshit, but also actively undermines progress against actual antisemitism elsewhere by poisoning the signal-to-noise ratio by perpetually being the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
For anyone non-Jewish looking for a scrap of perspective on the matter, remember after 9/11 when every response from every conservative about every overtly shady thing they did was to parrot, "Why do you hate America???????" It's pretty much the same idea.
Israel is not representative of modern Judiasm
well, Saudi arabia/afganistan is not representative of modern islam, but here we are. Do you think Muslim majority, largely secular countries like being compared to theocratical shitholes? no.
if you're just joining us, the thread is about how assholes like to make it seem that criticism of israel is antisemitism, whch is what archonet is talking about.
Great if you believe that, but how many other people do? How do you think it will change things in the eyes of all the far-right parties on the rise today?
They won't care.
The far-right simultaneously aligns with Israel and uses it to fuel their antisemitism. They don't care about facts or the truth because their only focus is power. That's why it's so critical to always call out the fact that Israel does not represent Jews.
It is critical to call out the contradictions of Israel so that people who do care about facts are not as easily fooled by the far-right.
Yes it does, religion is the driver of this. Don't give the religion a pass, it considers that whole area part of the original lands belonging to Jews, and won't stop until the Jewish kingdom is restored.
Don't try and make this secular is not.
That's Zionism, not Judiasm. They are not the same things.
There's literally Yiddish songs making fun of Zionism as an idea. Most early Zionists were secular and were directly opposed by religious Jews.
Ffs, there are a ton of interviews with rabbis calling for a cease fire or even an end to Israel. Jewish Voice for Peace has been consistently vocal in their opposition to Israeli apartheid.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Yiddish songs making fun of Zionism as an idea
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That's Zionism, not Judiasm. They are not the same things.
There's literally Yiddish songs making fun of Zionism as an idea. Most early Zionists were secular and were directly opposed by religious Jews.
Ffs, there are a ton of interviews with rabbis calling for a cease fire or even an end to Israel. Jewish Voice for Peace has been consistently vocal in their opposition to Israeli apartheid.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Yiddish songs making fun of Zionism as an idea
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Australian Jewish Association is a fucked up group of fucked up people. Opposing things they say is anti-idiocy.
Killing men, women and children of a "group" that wronged them is a sacred part of the Jewish texts, so it's anti-Semitic to tell them to stop killing children.
This argument is dangerous and in fact generalizes in an anti-Semitic way. The horrible actions of the state of Israel are not in any way representative of Judaism. How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist? Your reference to the Throa does nothing more than that: equate a religious group with the actions of a state. Please think before you post on social media.
How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist?
I think that would be really entertaining.
I think the world would be a lot better if everyone recognized that these religious books written hundreds or thousands of years ago have some batshit insane things written by some batshit insane people in them and no part of them should be used to dictate people's lives.
How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist?
Go ahead, do that. Quote Bible passages, Quran passages, Buddhist, other religious texts and events anywhere to paint me as whatever you think my areligious-ass is.
You will see that most have some passage like my example, that radical right-wing colonial fascists use to justify acts like genocide.
Religion can be a force of good and you're correct that the actions of Israel are not representative of Judaism as a whole. In fact, whether as a commandment from a holy figure, rules within a religious society to earn just reward, spiritual obligation or of role models portrayed in such texts, the principles of caring for others as you would yourself, acting compassionately to the weak, poor and underprivileged are core tenets of religions everywhere.
However, remember that the post is of a Semitic organization displaying opposition to genocide as an example of anti-Semitism, and I merely provide evidence that there are texts to back up that extremely harmful view.
Implying that Jewish people at large need to be told not to murder children because of the actions of Israel is actually anti-Semitic. Citing parts of the Torah to slander Jews when the topic is about Israel is anti-Semitic.
There are Jewish activists who oppose Israel (and Israel abuses them for their activism when they live there, or outright bans them from ever visiting Israel if they live elsewhere). And there are Jewish Palestinians too.
The Australian Jewish Association posting a picture like the one in the post kind of implicates Jews at large if such actions aren't widely condemned and taken back, even if it seems anti-Semitic to do so.
That said there are many Jews that advocate for peace and to end this violence.
Just one example of many: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Unfortunately it's overshadowed by a massive suppression campaign all over the world to hide voices of protest and justify the occupation.
The Australian Jewish Association posting a picture like the one in the post kind of implicates Jews at large if such actions aren't widely condemned and taken back...
No it absolutely does not. Pointing at an organization's statement and placing the responsibility of finding and condemning the message on Jewish people is insane. Do you think Jewish people are a hive mind or something?
The Australian Jewish Association is openly a pro-Israel and right wing organization. They say as much on their website. Why are you comfortable pointing at anything the org says and painting it as widely representative of Jewish views?
Unfortunately it's overshadowed by a massive suppression campaign all over the world to hide voices of protest and justify the occupation.
A campaign that you're not helping to oppose by pointing at the AJA and holding Jewish people culpable for its messages, nor by citing the Torah to slander Jewish people as child killers.
You're correct, but that's the crux of the problem.
Rank and file members of a religion need to come out against right-wing groups like the AJA that appropriate and hide behind the name of a religion to excuse being awful people. Otherwise they will use passages like the one I highlight to say this is what the religion really is about, which it isn't.
This is applicable to Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Buddhism and other religions just as much as Judaism.
Do you have a problem when the same argument is used against the Palestinians, and Hamas? The narrative there is that Hamas is built on the framework of "death to Israel and the Jews", and since the Palestinians don't come out strongly enough against the requested then they are guilty. Other Arab/Muslim majority neighboring nations denying them as refugees because of the levels of radicalization that have occurred, which gives ammunition to the pro-Israel sides declaration that the rank and file Palestinians are hiding behind Islamic Jihad and antisemitism to try and genocide the Jews.
I have the same issue with Hamas vs. Palestinians, yes. There was one Hamas official's comment of "It's going to be October 7th again and again until Israel is destroyed." and likewise there are religious texts of eliminating all people of non-Islam belief to back radical and harmful views just like the Torah example in my top-level comment.
Instead we need to give the voice to both Jewish and Islamic voices that express peace, compassion for one another and an end to violence.
Yep, all cops aren't bad, just a few... So because there are a handful of Israelis who don't support murdering women and children, you can't criticize any Israelis or their leaders or their country. It's just a massive conspiracy to hide that overwhelming protest against stealing land and killing children.
I see what your saying but I'm not sure I agree.
If you have a Jewish state by their own admission and put a lot of meaning into their text. Israel.
That state says something is Anti-Semetic.
Then someone references their own text to show how they believe something to be their religious right and telling someone to stop that is anti-semitic.
I get that this point is satirical to a degree because I'm not sure even using religion many people would say they have a right to kill children. But I think the comment is more about showing how stupid arguments are when they are based on religion rather than saying all Jews are child killers.
It would be like some Catholics killed some gay guys who were kissing and the Catholics said the gay guys where being racist and anti-Catholic.
If someone say well the bible says you should kill gays.
The hidden argument is that basing an argument on a historical text is stupid gives no justification for committing a crime. It doesn't say all Catholics are gay killers, because rationally no one would believe that person is saying that.
If you have a Jewish state by their own admission and put a lot of meaning into their text. Israel. That state says something is Anti-Semetic. Then someone references their own text to show how they believe something to be their religious right and telling someone to stop that is anti-semitic
If I'm reading what you're saying right, then you think the commenter was trying to mock Israel for their actions in Palestine by joking that Israel holds points about Judaism that justify child murder as sacred (thus telling them to stop would be "anti-Semitic" because their view of Judaism privileges child murdering.)
If I'm reading you right, then
-
that reading is incredibly generous to the point of inaccuracy. Because the context for this is the commenter looking at a post by the AJA, finding a piece of the Torah that reads like it supports child murder, then concludin that because this is part of Sacred Jewish Texts that it is anti-Semitic to tell "them" to stop killing children. This isn't helped by the commenter repeatedly asserting that it is somehow encumbant on all Jews to unilaterally denounce any pro-Israel messaging by any organization with "Jewish" in its name. (I can only guess they think Jews have a radar in their heads that goes "blip" whenever a post like this is made. Otherwise, I don't know how that could possibly be a reasonable expectation.)
-
this assumption relies on a reading of Israel as a representative of Judaism, or that either Judaism or Jewish people are accountable to Israel or it's appropriation of religion. I'm not sure whether this assumption walks the line of or directly crosses into dual loyalty territory, but it certainly sees that line.
It would be like some Catholics killed some gay guys who were kissing and the Catholics said the gay guys where being racist and anti-Catholic.
What's interesting about your analogy is that there is a state that proports to represent Catholicism (Vatican City) that you could have used here, but didn't do so by using "some Catholics" instead. After all, it would be crazy to hold all Catholics responsible and hold them to account to rebut the Vaticans claims for these hypothetical killings if "soldiers from Vatican City" did the killings, no matter what rationale the Vatican would have hypothetically given for them.
I wonder if there is a state and group of people that this analysis should also apply to.
Omfg you understand this is a shitpost right?
You understand jokes and satire right? Well obviously not. It hasn't got to be bang on accurate to what is UN decreed official language.
The premise of the joke is this:
1 Someone makes a comment about how Israel shoukd stop committing crimes against humanity.
2 It gets called anti Semetic
3 Someone satrically defends Israel/that person also defending Israel.
The joke is about how stupid the second point is by futher adding to the stupidity for comedic effect in 3.
How you read that as to be anti semetic to the whole of Jews honestly is starting to read like you are futher adding to the joke by expanding on the stupid anti semetic comment in point 2.
I'm not sure Israel and the Vatican are analogous examples which is why I didnt use it. But sure change it to saying not allowing the Pope or cardinals to fuck kids is anti-Catholic for all I care. I was trying to help explain the joke but now I'm thinking are you trolling.
This should be pointed more often, if ideology of a group is including culling other groups then you shouldn't be surprised they actually start doing it someday, this actually also points at many other groups out there and people tend to forget about it till it's too late
Thanks. I am willing to risk religious people of all stripes to downvote me for saying it, not that points matter.
Have to condemn Riemer & Lieberman here…
How’d you interpret the last two paragraphs?
Even if most people would not invoke the commandment to destroy Amalek today, there are certainly those, like Rabbi Riemer, who have ventured to do so. And there has been no dearth of similar, violent invocations in reference to the Palestinians, as well. For example, Benzi Lieberman, the chairman of the Council of Settlements said in no uncertain terms: “The Palestinians are Amalek! We will destroy them. We won’t kill them all. But we will destroy their ability to think as a nation. We will destroy Palestinian nationalism.”
The general consensus among today’s Jewish community seems to be that our energies can and must be used to stop the perpetuation of genocidal activity occurring throughout the world, to become agents for peace, and to dismiss any contemporary comparisons to the biblical paradigm. But clearly there are difficult texts and teaching that remain in our tradition that must be remembered and reckoned with.
Right, so if this is the consensus (although there is reason to believe it is), then this occupation of Gaza should have been condemned and stopped months ago by Jewish organizations everywhere, hand in hand with peace groups, humanitarian organizations like MSF, Palestinian groups. The level of suppression of media and protest happening from Israeli and Jewish organizations show a level of complicity in the elected right-wing level governments actions, and only a handful of brave Jewish groups and rabbis have publicly spoken out against it.
and stopped
How do you propose those organizations do that? Go to Gaza and start shooting at IDF troops?
That's a fair question. Sign onto the open letters produced by various peace and humanitarian organizations.
Put out advertisements and advocacy in support of a ceasefire. Pressure local, state/provincial, federal governments to restrict your nation's support to the Israeli government. Push local and national theistic organizations co-ordinate a message for peace and compassion for the displaced and hungry, end violence and bring aid to their fellow Palestinian Semite.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org I do believe the large majority of Jews worldwide care for peace and humanitarian compassion. They should be upset and revolt at letting the current Israeli government tarnish their culture and religion in vain, at the cost of thousands of innocent lives. They should support BDS (and in Canada)
We do need to separate the anger towards Israel with anything with Judaism. The issue is that Israeli government, various Israeli organizations and the most moral army in the world are tying themselves to Judaism to excuse heinous acts of violence.
None of that will stop a genocide that Netanyahu is dedicated to seeing to completion. The only person who can stop this genocide is Netanyahu. And none of those organizations will help there.
Humbly, I disagree. The U.S. Department of State has been in lock-step with Netanyahu's wants and needs to conduct this genocide. It has vetoed a ceasefire resolution multiple times. American uniforms, American vehicles, American arms are delivered to and used by the IDF. Domestic pressure in the US will have an effect.
Restricting deliveries of such tools to conduct genocide will hamper Netanyahu's ability to conduct the mission, which can be advocated for by people and organizations anywhere.
Other countries, including Canada believing every damn word coming from the IDF without question while being slow to corroborate other information is something that needs to change. Cities like Chicago have come out with an official stance in support of Palestine, other cities can too.
If we care for a rules-based order in the world, if the majority of a religion's followers believe in the compassionate core of their religion, we can show it, even if it wouldn't materially affect how Netanyahu conducts his genocide.
This comment is actually pretty bigoted. I've heard literal Nazis talk the exact same way about Muslims and their religious texts.
Just because something was written in a religious book a thousand years ago doesn't mean it is automatically endorsed by the entire population.
Hey, I agree with you my comment was a bit bigoted. This comment was half-written in the context of being a Lemmy Shitpost, but it has spawned a chain of genuine discussion.
The important thing is to separate the hate for what Israel is doing from Jewish people in general. (Same with Palestinians, Hamas and Islam)
Anti-Semites and Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, the Israeli government, the Australian Jewish Association all try to fuse the two together to justify violence.
Yeh, it should be about criticizing and standing against the Israeli state, hamas, and their supporters to be specific, not the folks these entities claim to represent.
The vast majority of Jews do not accept what ancient iron age text happen to say as if they were modern moral texts and recognize their ancient flaws. Because most Jews aren't Orthodox, who are the only ones who believe all that shit.
The rabbi at the temple when I was growing up was a lesbian. The rabbi at the temple there now (coincidentally) is a gay man. Considering homosexuality is condemned in the torah and they are still rabbis, that should tell you something.
People are missing the satire and humour in this post obviously.
It's a joke people. He's pointing out stupidity.
Is AJA a credible group? Or just some person trying to sound official?
No worse than the ADL for sure.
There are Jewish Muslims that live in Palestine. Would it not be antisemitic of Israel to a attack an area that houses Jews of any sect and faith?
Do you mean Jewish arabs? or Semitic Muslims maybe. Technically Semitic is a language group which includes arabic but like indo-european it can also refer to the people who originally used the dialect... bigotry fails at logic.
Judaism is a religion, not a race. Plenty of people of the race commonly associated with Judsism who aren't Jews. Like your average Palestinian.
As a kid I attended a Jewish day school, and we had a year long class on European-Jewish history through the Holocaust.
The post screenshotted (allegedly from the AGA) reads almost like it came right out of that era as a piece of anti-semetic propoganda.
Seriously. Weather the post was actually from the AGA, or an anti-semetic propogandist, it is 100% blood libel, and should treated as such.
I'm guessing the claim is that saying "Israel is killing children" present a "false" narrative (presumably, false to them). Like you can imagine someone saying "Stop this man from killing puppies!" and it makes him look pretty bad even if he's not a puppy killer.
What's unfortunate is that instead of responding to "false" narratives by pointing out the falsehoods ("Actually all those bombed children's hospitals were faked!" /s), instead this person just attacks the character of the person saying it. It's basically name-calling or tone policing at best. I'm guessing because there's no good argument in support of Netanyahu's actions. Only zealots would support him.
They are killing children, it's not a false narrative, it's what's happening. Palestine has a very young population, those casualties contain a very large percentage of underage people. They don't have to bomb a children's hospital to kill children.
I suggest you read my post again if you think I said anything to the contrary. I'm trying to understand this person's fucked up logic.