https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/02/21/alabama-court-ruling-frozen-embryos-are-children/
Supreme Court says people will be held criminally liable under the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act if they destroy one
I guess soon, when you break-up with someone, the state might charge you with killing the idea of the children you might have had.
You know how I can confidently say that anyone who is against the right to choose hates women?
Because doesn't matter how much they claim to love children, and how many shenanigans they pull like this one, I know for a fact that not a single one of them would ever in their whole life even entertain the idea of charging a man who masturbated with mass murder.
Isn't it illegal to transport a child to commit a crime? Human trafficking? Kidnapping? What a can of worms. I feel like there's too much money in fertility treatments for SCOTUS to let this stand.
Well since they don't have birth certificates I guess they're undocumented people and that would be bad mmkay.
Actively working to take back control of my own life, and developing the tools I need to stay sober.
If you've been hurt in a bemder accident you deserve compensation. Contact James Jameson and Co. We will stand up -for you- when you fall down. Call 1800thisisamemefuxyou
Look here, pal!
I spent the first ten years of my childhood in Alabama living in a freezer! Do you have any idea what that’s like?
No hugs, no toys. A fucking freezer!
For ten years of my childhood!
Won't be long until Alabama considers miscarriage to be murder. Wait...that actually is already a thing:
I'm surprised the Alabama legal system isn't more comfortable with miscarriages. They seem to have had a lot recently
When she arrived at hospital seeking treatment, Poolaw admitted to using illicit drugs while pregnant.
So the 'crime' is of causing the death of the foetus through illegal drug use.
It's not conclusive that the cause was drug use. And that really should not matter anyway. It was a miscarriage.
"Yes, I see on your tax forms that you have claimed 1034 dependents, which means that the state actually owes YOU. Here is your big bag of money sir."
Well considering most people who have them are wealthy, it would fit right in with Republicans wanting to give tax breaks to the rich.
The real question is child support.
Oh man, get the state to pay for the storage costs for your embryos. That'll put and end to this silly shit STAT.
Tinder in certain states will put up an alert, warning you that if female, by proceeding with the date, you may be liable to carry a child to term, and if male, will need to pre-deposit child support in an escrow account.
Ooh I like the child support pre-deposit idea. Sounds ominously like taking responsibility for the child you might conceive from your pleasure.
Massive child trafficking ring brought down in Alabama. Governor to receive medal for outstanding achievement in law enforcement as 700 arrests are performed statewide.
I'm not messing with that soft paywall. Are they saying that parents who let their frozen embryos go bad in the freezer are guilty of murder or manslaughter?
You don't understand. This old book told me all the answers to life's mysteries. WoOoOooo it's infallible.
God it would be funny/sad if someone found a copy of Mike Pences auto biography 10,000 years after some cataclysm destroyed society. Than they started worshiping it.
WoOoOooo
You said it wrong. You failed your attempt at conversion.
Wololo. Wololo. Wololo.
Welcome to the Huns.
My dad was one of those jerks that would build 30-40 priests on an Econ build and then push with them when you decided to try and crack that nut,
Poof there goes your army.
Not that he really knew what an Econ build was, or any of the other things. But he’d play this “I don’t know what I’m doing” act and get away with it, (and he wasn’t good enough to deserve a feudal rush. Just… annoying.)
These kind of "Christians" are about as christian as the people from Sodom.
That doesn't make it right to fuck things up for everyone else.
Sorry, that's a no true Scotsman fallacy.
It doesn't matter if they aren't Christ-like. Many, many Christians, including clergy and even pontiffs have committed atrocities. They still worshiped Christ, making them Christians.
If we were to play it your way, the Crusaders weren't Christians, the Spanish Inquisition weren't Christians, the Conquistadors weren't Christians, etc. I don't think that's what you intend, but that is the problem with suggesting people who are not Christlike are not Christians.
Otherwise, we need to invent a new religion and put a huge percentage of people from the last 2000 years who thought they were called Christians into it.
If you read the fallacy you'd realize that you fell into the false fallacy fallacy.
To quote your linked article:
No true Scotsman or appeal to purity is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect their generalized statement from a falsifying counterexample by excluding the counterexample improperly.[1][2][3] Rather than abandoning the falsified universal generalization or providing evidence that would disqualify the falsifying counterexample, a slightly modified generalization is constructed ad-hoc to definitionally exclude the undesirable specific case and similar counterexamples by appeal to rhetoric.
There is plenty of countries with a christian background and still majority christian population, that wouldn't even think to discuss such absurd policies. American nutjobs cannot be considered to be representative of christianity as a whole. Much of their nutjobbery is specific to them.
American nutjobs cannot be considered to be representative of christianity as a whole.
No one said they were. They aren't. But they are Christians. That is their religion even if you don't like that it is the same as yours.
If we were to play it your way, the Crusaders weren’t Christians, the Spanish Inquisition weren’t Christians, the Conquistadors weren’t Christians, etc
All of the above are Catholic, and the vast majority of Christians I know would agree that they aren't Christian.
Catholics are the OG Christians, despite what all the seething Protestants might tell you.
That is not only another No True Scotsman fallacy, it's also anecdotal.
Catholics are undeniably Christians no matter what other Christians may think. Catholicism likely came before their sect anyway.
That may be but the original point you seemed to make was broader.
I.e. you just moved the goal post because of the examples.
Are Prosperity Theology Christian's not really Christian?
btw, the buddha wasn't a buddhist, and christ wasn't a christian. Let go of identity views and just do the next right thing.
The world is tribal enough.
I've been thinking of them as antichristian. Not as in against Christianity, but as in antichrist ...ian. From what I've heard the whole idea of the antichrist is supposed to be that Christians love the guy even though the guy goes against all of the lessons of Jesus, but he does the performative stuff. That sounds like what I see there.
It is absolutely an evil ideology and shut be utterly abolished along with all Abrahamic religions. Fuck the Constitution; they got this one dead wrong
*theistic religions
Believing that the flying spaghetti monster will solve all the worlds issues means you don't function in society
The judge used
religious logicreligion in his ruling.
Ain't no logic to be found there.
to be fair, the (wrongful death*) lawsuit was because the hospital or wherever they were being stored at let the frozen embryos die off. It's entirely reasonable to expect some kind of... protection... considering the reason for those to have been stored was so they might be able to have kids, etc.
*wrongful death is a bit much, mind you. But how far do you want to take the "guy beats a pregnant woman to kill the baby" types of charges? ultimately, I suspect, the issue here is that the religious nutjobs lack nuance. they see the world as black-and-white and can't fathom a possibility where there were damages in this matter, but it wasn't a "wrongful death" scenario.
From what I've previously read the agency that had the frozen embryos did not let them die off, they stored them properly in an industrial freezer kept at far below 0 temps. The issue was a person who didn't work at the clinic snuck into the room with the fridge, opened it and then dropped the embryos and ran away (the article said the assumption was because the containers were so cold he got freeze-burned). There might be a case here that they didn't do enough to stop the individual, or check on them often enough, I don't know enough details to know, but it doesn't sound like they just simply didn't care or didn't store them properly.
States have long had laws against forcibly ending someone else's pregnancy and those have stood up even before Roe died. It's not usually on the level of murder/manslaughter, but at a minimum it's been treated as a destruction of property. You don't have to treat the embryo as a person to charge someone with aggravated battery or something similar.
The main issue here is the broadness of this ruling (besides the whole quoting the Bible thing) which equates embryos with full-human life. It won't change a whole lot in this case, the families could have still sued for negligence or destruction of property, or any number of other civil remedies of this was denied, but now it's laid the ground work to do much worse things in the future.
Looking close, you’re right. Vandals got in.
I would suggest the facility was negligent in their security arrangements, as far as wrongful death (again, it’s a pretty dubious “if”, that it goes that far), it would be like somebody dying because the building wasn’t up to code when an arson came by.
My assumption is, though, that there’s a budget-rate warm body security guard; and between shit pay, shit training, shittier oversight… the guard couldn’t be arsed to care. (Alternatively, the guard was going to sell them for drug money.)
The good news for the facility… if their lawyers were any good in that contract they’d have gotten an indemnity clause and can pass that buck. (Liability is a bitch; and she hits hard. The security company will probably go poof unless they’re the size of G4S or Securitas)
In any case… personally, it doesn’t rise to wrongful death, but I can see a need for nuance. I would, personally, suggested the couple treat it as property, similar to a safety deposit box.
How could it be battery if the embryos aren't treated as people? Nobody was battered. No victim was even present.
For the record, if we treat this more like a safety deposit box; the couple are the victims here.
It should probably be treated that way.
Their argument is because those embryos had potential to be human… they should be treated as human.
I don’t buy it, and it’s certainly not something that should establish the precedent that embryos=babies.
Sorry for the confusion, the battery part of my reply was related to forcibly ending someone else's pregnancy, which would have to involve some kind of battery unless it's like poison or something, not related to the embryos in the freezer. There is no battery to those since they are not people.
I don’t see how this isn’t prima facie evidence of a first amendment violation (presuming that the courts or state legislatures are bound by “Congress” being synonymous with “Government” as I believe it’s been interpreted)
Pretty sure personal beliefs which haven't been proven should make the ruling invalid. He's judge, not king.
If those embryos count as children, wouldn't it be OK to ask for all kinds of legal benefits for them?
It’s the most effective way to challenge the law. Just carry it through to its natural conclusion.
"Wow I suddenly have 11 kids to care for. I can't afford to live. Better apply for snap and tanf."
Lol, you think there are any social programs left after these chucklefucks are through.
Using transit lanes!
Family tax benefits!
Ooh! Divorce and file for child support for dozens of kids!
Adopt thousands of them and then every few days remove one from the freezer or fridge or whatnot and then demand bereavement leave.
Well that’s a potential future news headline that I hadn’t imagined until just now. I can hardly wait to be horrified!
if a woman has a period and has had sex, there is a good chance a fertilized egg was probably somewhere around the blood, making every woman in Alabama who has had sex a possible serial killer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implantation_(embryology)#Implantation_failure
Reproduction in humans is not very efficient. Only around 30% of natural conceptions result in successful pregnancies. Of the failed pregnancies around 85% are due to implantation failure.
Seems like it's extremely normal for a fertilized egg to fail to implant and be flushed out during your next period.
You have referenced forbidden knowledge. You are not supposed to talk about god doing abortions.
I think you just didn't word it clearly enough. Someone might read it as a woman getting pregnant from sex during period, which is not what you meant.
it is impossible that a fertilized egg can shed? i was under the impression that it may sometimes happen
Yes we know what a period is, and it's common for eggs to be flushed out after falling to implant.
Fun fact, there is quite more to learn about everything after school. School will provide you with rather abbreviated and often simplified version of scientific conses from around 50 years ago.
Mate, are you just so confused with what is happening with the responses here? I've literally had an abortion; I'm pro choice. But there's this random pile on of I'm assuming men, telling us what idiots we are.
Think of the potential tax wind fall these people could have! I'd knuckle shuffle up some "kids" and rake in the tax money.
Unfortunately they made embryos children for the purposes of punishments, but let the bill die that would have made them dependents on taxes.
Take it to court! They either have to decide this law is shit, or it forces the state to pay for them.
Well they cant be half children. Theyre either kids or not, Id claim them all and if they audit it, then it FORCES the government to involve themselves and set a precedent. If it's a life, its certainly dependent on the clinic, claim them. Also if they're truly considered lives, they are inherently entitled to all the rights the US offers living humans. A state tax bill can't negate that, only dropping the clasification of being a living being can.
The history of this country proves that we have no issues with the blatant cognitive dissonance of declaring someone to only be a portion of a person.
And now there's precedent on how that's not legal. I still think its a worthwile challenge.
By that logic, women are committing murder every time they menstruate.
Maybe I missed something because the article is behind a paywall.
Edit: ok, as pointed out, I don’t know how these things work. I apologize, and accept all the downvotes and jabs you can give.
By that logic, women are committing murder every time they menstruate.
An unfertilized egg is not the same thing as an embryo.
By that logic, women are committing murder every time they menstruate.
Don't give them ideas.
Fertilized eggs get flushed all the time when they fail to implant. One step closer to making sex illegal. Fucking idiots....
Plenty of times a fertilized egg is expelled during menstruation for one reason or another though.
ok, as pointed out, I don’t know how these things work.
He speaks on behalf of the whole Internet
I apologize
Oh, my bad.
Children are only important until they are born. After that's happened they can work down the mines for all they care.
