https://www.commondreams.org/news/andy-ogles-gaza
"Any congressional resolutions to censure or expel Ogles?" asked one commentator.
He woke up and thought "today, I'm going to be the shitty politician that punk rockers sing about", and then he did it.
Can YOU, a regular citizen, openly declare your desire to commit genocide and still retain YOUR job?
Fortunately, the wealthy aren't a race of people, so it isn't considered genocide if I begrudgingly devour each and every one of them for the good of mankind. Checkmate moralists.
Commonly genocide is associated with race in media, but the legal definition is broader in the UN Genocide Convention: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". The wealthy can be easily associated with specific national groups. Check the case of Pol-Pot en Cambodia for a rather extreme example.
Let me guess, 30,000 dead Palestinian civilians at the hands of the armed wing of one of the most advanced intelligence machines in the Eastern hemisphere is just "defending their right to exist".
Take a look at the map. There's one country in the region surrounding by countries whose Jews have been ethnically cleansed. The rest of them were forced to covert during the Arab conquests that swept the land. You've got Iran, Hamas and more all openly saying they want to murder the inhabitants of that lone non Arab country so ya, they're clearly defending their right to exist.
Also interesting that you're accepting the numbers from the terrorists who started this round of fighting without question. Do you really think that not a single Hamas fighter has been among the dead? There was a Lord in Parliament the other day speaking on the civilian/combatant ratio being around 2.5:1, or about 9k of those dead being militants. Suppose you're taking Hamas numbers over the UK's on this cuz it fits your narrative?
Pretty much like every other politician, except that he is open and honest about it, unlike most of his colleagues.
Turns out yes, things can get much worse for Palestinians if Republicans win in November.
When I hear things like Dearborn MI is voting for Trump, there's a sick part of me that wants to see what would happen if the Arab community was the reason Trump got into power.
Like, I understand that you're very angry with the current situation but are you actually going to ruin your life and that of millions of your supposed brothers in the middle east to express that anger? Do people forget what Trump did as soon as he was in office last time?
If both parties are going to genocide Arabs while they're in charge, the blood is on their hands and no one else's. Only assholes and morons will blame Arabs in the US for the massacre of Palestinians.
It should be illegal in any country.
Sadly, in the U.S., "freedom of speech" has become almost totally meaningless. Our supreme court decided that money is speech, which is why we now have things called political action committees (PACs) which aren't supposed to work with campaigns *wink wink, nudge nudge* and can raise unlimited funds from anyone anywhere in the world legally. Unsurprisingly, Trump's PAC has been paying his legal bills.
Freedom of speech in America means the freedom to call for, advocate for, and organize violence against anyone you like so long as they aren't white and/or Christian.
If you say violence is bad, or call for violence against those Advocating for and organizing violence though - THEN it's hate speech.
speech should not be illegal, everyone should be free to say what they want. If you don't like what someone is saying don't fucking vote for them. Protest against israel are already illegal in many countries, that's what not having free speech brings you.
Got it. Money should equal speech because it's illegal to protest against Israel in many countries.
You can tell the press is broken when he isn't permanently called a "Genocide Enthusiast" or something similar by the press for as long as he lives.
No, they are not all being killed. There are about 2 million innocent people in the entire Strip. Death figures according to the Gazan Health Ministry are around 30,000 currently.
It's not impossible though, it's been attempted before in history, by ethno-nationalist asshats just like Netanyahu's supporters.
This can get much worse. Many zealots want it worse.
Just because we're not yet at MegaGenocide™ package doesn't mean much, most of Gaza is rubble now. That two million people have pretty much nowhere to return to. Israel wanted ethnic cleansing (as they have explicitly stated time and time again, Zionism is a fascist ideology) and they're getting it
I don't disagree. Just realize, many, many more people can die. Netanyahu is a criminal, propped up by these ethno-nationalists. He doesn't care.
Bibi is also propped up by Biden’s unwavering support. The UN’s ceasefire resolution has been blocked 3 times by the US. Unchecked Zionism could easily lead to the catastrophic death tolls you refer to, as if 30k innocent civilians isn’t already beyond abhorrent. Biden is the most Zionist president in US history.
Try floating a UN resolution that isn't just calling for a cease fire, and actually has some enforcement mechanism. That might be worth a look.
Without a ceasefire, it isn’t possible for medical personnel to treat the 10s of thousands of sick, injured, and starving. IDF forces are blowing up ambulances trying to help.
Without a ceasefire, critical humanitarian aid such as food, water, and medical supplies cannot be delivered. IDF forces are blowing up the delivery trucks even if they travel along so called safe and authorized corridors.
Without a ceasefire, Israeli hostages held by hamas will continue to perish instead of get rescued. IDF forces brutal bombing campaign affects them just as much as Palestinian civilians.
To demand anything less than a ceasefire is, at this point, to betray your racism and disregard for Arab lives.
To suggest that the US isn’t also blocking UN efforts to send peacekeeping troops to monitor for and prevent war crimes being committed on a daily basis shows me you’re very ignorant, or extremely malicious. No amount of dead children could change your mind, and for those like Bibi, no amount of dead children will ever be enough.
A ceasefire is only a mandatory first step. Israel must end the occupation. Palestine belongs to Palestinians.
Genocides usually have a threshold of a few thousand. Is your point, that 30,000 dead civilians that were killed by indiscriminate bombing campaigns by the country with the best military intel on Earth, is not that distasteful a number?
No, that is not my point. My point is that any assumption that our own American ethno-nationalists cannot make the Gazan situation dramatically worse is misplaced. It can get so, so much worse. It can potentially fully succeed.
We have American people that advocate for genocide too, you know. And when they say it, they're thinking the Holocaust, not a few thousand. They're not pretending, or playing around.
"They're not all dead yet it's not a genocide."
You. That's you. Stop literally excusing an ongoing genocide. Fucking pathetic.
No one said it's not a genocide. It's a genocide. More people will die under Trump. This is a worse outcome.
I love all the comments like "Biden isn't being tough enough on Israel! Biden isn't stopping the genocide!"
Besides the fact that people are asking Biden to do something that directly hurts US foreign policy interests.....
Do they REALLY think that the Republican party is on the side of stopping brown people dying? Biden in office is probably the most gentle response Palestine is going to get for 10/7. Republicans are frothing at the mouth to boost JDAM and Paveway kit sales.
If preventing a genocide is hurting "foreign policy interests", then those interests are shite.
exactly what i was thinking.
if this is the lesser of two evils, you probably have reached evil long ago.
Yep they keep saying lesser of two evils while the options get more and more evil despite claiming "incremental progress". Moderates are completely disconnected from reality or they're just too afraid to actually push for something better.
The problem is with Trump, particularly, there's good reason to be afraid.
"We want to punish the democrats for supporting Israel, so we are going to let Trump win"
GOP proceeds to double down on oppressive wars, no improvement for Gaza. Further, you get a government full of leaders that, in the wake of losing in 2020, openly pondered ways of just rigging the election so they don't have to get votes to win anymore. You had laws proposed in GOP states to declare the legislature could pick whatever electors they wanted ignoring their voters. You had people running for non-partisan election administration positions promising they'll make sure Republicans win, no matter what. They actively tried to send fake electors that particular cycle, even without any legal backing.
So, in at least one scenario, congratulations, you successfully admonished Biden for his misbehavior, and now, we have at least as bad misbehavior, and maybe some unwinding of democracy to make sure we never get to influence foreign policy ever again.
The problem is with Trump, particularly, there’s good reason to be afraid.
I agree. The threat of Trump seems like a bigger risk to me than the risks introduced by stopping the supply of arms to Israel or vowing to veto any attempts to block a rail strike. But apparently moderates and Joe Biden would prefer to avoid those risks and instead gamble they can win the general election anyway. But what do I know? I'm not part of the majority voting bloc so I'm not responsible for what happens.
I’m not part of the majority voting bloc so I’m not responsible for what happens.
I mean, to the extent any voter is "responsible" for what happens, if you abstain from voting or explicitly vote for a candidate you know is going to lose to make a point, then you have some responsibility for the result, and thus it better be a result you reasonably expect to live with. If you think Trump isn't any worse than Biden, then voting for the candidate you like best, their chances be damned makes sense. If you sincerely think Trump is a risk that can't be tolerated, then when general election comes around, you unfortunately should probably vote for Biden.
I personally think Trump is too problematic to risk his victory on principle. Any other presidential contest I can recall, sure, punish the mainstream by voting third party, it's not like any of the presidential candidates were that much worse than the others. If somehow Haley became the republican frontrunner, by all means, I might not prefer her, but I don't have a dire sense of dread about her. She wouldn't be a better choice than Biden on Gaza, but at least your vote was probably clearly seen to be one he forfeited because of his stance. It's just a matter of how important it is to vote against a particular candidate as to whether you have the comfortable option of voting for your favorite versus voting against an unfavored candidate.
I mean, to the extent any voter is “responsible” for what happens, if you abstain from voting or explicitly vote for a candidate you know is going to lose to make a point, then you have some responsibility for the result
The vote of a majority of people in the country will have no impact on the result of the election whatsoever. Most of us don't live in the sliver of electorally competitive states.
If you live in Georgia, you should be deeply pondering the very real consequences of a protest vote, but this idea that every voter is responsible is just not how our system works.
I mean, to the extent any voter is “responsible” for what happens
Sure. But the bulk of the responsibility rests on the moderates as they are the majority voting bloc.
I'll accept my grain of responsibility as someone from an, apparently irrelevant, minority wing.
Quick question, can you explain to me how it wasn't evil to burn babies in their cribs, rape daughters in front of mothers, and behead fathers in front of sons? Cause I really can't see it any other way after 10/7.
the world isnt black and white and one evil can't justify another, even greater evil. its a convenient excuse, but its good to notice oppression has the habit of creating more of the twisted people you speak of.
the world isn't black and white
Evil
Incredible that this amount of cognitive dissonance can fit into one sentence.
Supporting Israel's genocide of Palestinians is directly harming the US' foreign policy interests.
The entire point of Israel’s genocide in the end is to perpetuate war and conflict so rightwing nutjobs like Netanyahu can retain power by killing people and claiming they are keeping people safe instead of doing actual leadership work and passing effective policy to save people.
In that sense Israel’s genocide makes the entire world less safe by empowering strongman leaders like this.
The foreign policy of most on the right is basically "Turn it all to glass." Which is terrifying.
Are you seriously incapable of viewing Biden's actions outside of a lens related to the upcoming election?
It's almost as though some people are incapable of holding two thought in their head at the same time: the RNC is absolutely fascist and pro-genocide, and Biden is doing the wrong thing in this specific situation and should be criticized for it. If all criticism of a president must stop, you live in a dictatorship. This one just happens to be a two party dictatorship where one awful party is kept from criticism by the threat of the other being even worse.
Literally everything every politician does is towards their next re-election. Literally everything. It's ignorant to think otherwise.
Part of representing their constituents is to satisfy the most voters to vote for them in the future. It's not a hard concept.
This is a total non-sequitur, you don't seem to understand the conversation you're involved in and nothing about your other responses suggests there might be an intelligent conversation to be had were it corrected.
How does that even make sense? GOP being worse doesn't mean that Biden is doing a great job. He's bloody well FUNDING and ARMING the genocidal IDF. That there is a worse option doesn't make Biden's actions in any way "good".
I immediately stop listening to anyone that is calling the current situation genocide. No better way to tell me that your opinion is worthless than to use words incorrectly.
The UN Convention on Genocide defines it like this:
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
"a) Killing members of the group;
b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
So, point for point, the only one Israel hasn't done in Gaza is "e". But to be clear, you don't have to hit all 5 to be a genocide, just one is enough. Russia is hitting all 5 in Ukraine.
A repressed people cannot commit genocide against their repressors.
See:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner's_slave_rebellion
Great, so Israel can't commit genocide against Palestinians due to 80 years of oppression through terrorist attacks?
I'd hardly call what the Palestinians do "oppression", they aren't in a position to oppress anyone.
Besides the fact that people are asking Biden to do something that directly hurts US foreign policy interests…
Why would enabling the genocide of Palestinians benefit US foreign policy?
Also, isn't our current beef with Yemen and the 96% drop off in Suez traffic a direct result of Israel's War in Gaza? Isn't keeping the Suez open to traffic pursuant to US foreign policy?
Do they REALLY think that the Republican party is on the side of stopping brown people dying?
I think that America is a Fascist Nation enabling the will of some of the most deranged and brutal regimes in human history. Between the Israelis, the Saudis, the Indian Hinduvistas, and the Duterte/Marcos cartel in the Philippians, we've got - bare minimum - four Fascist regional governments that we are falling over ourselves to help perpetuate atrocities of nightmarish proportions.
Republicans and Democrats seem to be in alignment in supporting all of these horrifying campaigns of mass slaughter. If this is the future of American politics, our government deserves to fail and I pray that our failed state is wiped from the face of the Earth.
The US does not negotiate with terrorists. The US is not going to abandon it's interests just because some anti-semitic people don't like the US supporting Israel. It is directly contrary to the US foreign policy interests because it signals that the US is willing to abandon allies in the face of attack. Imagine if the US had withdrawn support from Israel after 9/11, an attack which was specifically in retaliation for US support of Israel.
The US does not negotiate with terrorists.
Government Negotiations with Terrorists: US Edition
Also:
Negotiating with Terrorists, from the Journal of Police Negotiation, 2001
There is no evidence that hard-line policies reduce terrorism or even discourage political extremists. It is a given that negotiation with both types of political extremist should be undertaken, with terrorists requiring very special handling. Examples of two scenarios of airplane hijackings are given with the advice that the terrorist will be a catalyst for tragedy if a misstep is made in negotiations. This article does not present solutions, but raises awareness of the difficulties involved and the need for help, even in the realm of the exotic, along with qualified special consultants being sought to offer advice.
This is the worst case scenario for Gazans and people who know them. They don't care about Biden's infrastructure record or Trump's position on NATO.
To you. For them they've already lost entire branches of their extended families. A figurative nuke already went off for them.
Oh dear, have they done anything to stop 20 years of build-up of tunnels and weapons underneath them?
Why would I try to stop something that I fully support? Last time I checked, the US doesn't have a policy of slaughtering civilians.
My grandpa said the same thing and now he’s gonna die without ever seeing me again. Hope he’s proud.
Good for you for drawing a line, it must have been hard but that degree of hate is incompatible with love.
Can we bring back the proposal that any politician who advocates in favor of an offensive war/conflict be then immediately pressed into service on the front lines?
If he wants to kill Palestinians so badly, maybe he can man up and do it himself rather than speak platitudes across a desk.
Shove this in the face of the GeNoCiDe JoE!!1!1!1 idiots who can’t seem to grasp that they face a binary decision.
What's fun is that I regularly ask, "who should I vote for to prevent Trump from being president?" I rarely get an answer, but I do get told I support genocide. It's extra-fun when I tell them I want to stop Trump to stop people like my queer daughter from being the victims of a genocide. That often makes them double down on telling me how much I want there to be a genocide.
I've even been told I should care more about people on the other side of the world than my own daughter's life.
I am extremely sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and absolutely condemn Israel's genocide... but at the expense of my own child's life? Fuck no.
Anything to stop Trump and Republicans from putting queer people in "conversion" camps where they're tortured to death. Because that's the goal.
Not to mention trump would do the same if not worse in terms of foreign policy "genocide"
Edit - my quoting of genocide was not to imply I find it farcicle, just to be clear.
Agreed, although they usually say I shouldn't vote for either option as if there is a viable third possibility of a winner even though they never name that person when I asked... except for one guy. He said Cornel West. His reasoning? Both Trump and Biden could die before November and then Cornel West would win because anything is possible in the universe. Seriously.
I mean, many things are possible, including that outcome, whereas FTL and time travel do not seem to be possible. The question is, how probable is that outcome, and can you do anything to steer matters to it in a realistic way? I'd have to say that anyone sane enough to actually effect that outcome is too sane to come within a kilometer of even spending the time to plan it, let alone actually try it and die on the protective detail's bullets.
Honestly, I'd rate FTL and time travel as slightly more probable than electing a third-party candidate as President.
trump would do the same if not worse
The orange mobster has displayed his intentions against Muslims and it is far worse. Biden has sent several envoys to warn Israel that what they are doing is alienating the world and consolidating Arab support against them which will result in even more violence against Israel. For Biden to go against Israel publicly would hand the election to the orange tyrant.
You need to stop having those conversations and focus on what's important. Right now, if the election were to be held, Trump wins in a landslide according to the polls (assuming EC more or less follows the popular trend).
What do you need to do before November to ensure that your queer daughter is protected in the extremely likely case of a 2nd Trump administration?
I just hope they learn before it's too late that the people who stand idly by and/or vote in support of genocide of Palestinians because they're not Palestinian are the same people who will do the same with queer people like us because they're not queer.
They're already turning the corner on immigrants. The recent Dem bill is more extreme than any border laws passed under Trump. And now it's getting even more extreme with the new bipartisan version.
Stop using us as a shield to protect your horrific genocide. I wonder if their daughter even knows they're appropriating her queerness to support slaughtering tens of thousands of children.
Taking her being queer and using it as an excuse to ignore the slaughter of @innocents?
Yep you are appropriating her queer status to use.
It's not a Dem bill; it's a bipartisan bill. It was the Democrats compromising in order to save Ukraine.
And your last paragraph is just disgusting. No one's using you as a shield here. And no one is 'appropriating her queerness'.
Do you have any idea what you're even going on about? You seem to feel pretty strongly about it while not knowing what you're talking about. That or you're just buying into some sort of propaganda without thinking about it, which I guess amounts to the same.
They're actually correct in how this thread is using queer people as shields for Israel's genocide
There are queer Palestinians as well. Although there are far fewer today than there were 5 months ago
One of my closest friends moved to Tennessee right before his adolescent daughter came out as queer a few years back. I feel so bad for that kid. Her family is supportive of her, at least, but what a nightmare place to have to live as a gay kid.
I'm not making excuses for anyone here --
I expect it is extremely confusing for many people when "Jewish" is a religion, an ethnicity, a nationality, a nation, and a political football. This leads to anything the Israeli government opposes to be construed in the same light, which is how we get people equating "Palestinians living in severe apartheid conditions inside the borders of the nation of Israel" with "Hamas." And, of course, anyone who opposes the actions of the Israeli government is likely to get branded "antisemitic," because if you oppose the Jewish nation you must also oppose the Jewish religion, ethnicity, and nationality, right? (Narrator: Wrong.)
Because of this conflation of so many different things being called the same thing, I try to make absolutely clear what I'm talking about (when I dare dip my toe into those shark-infested waters). Hamas fucking sucks. The Israeli government fucking sucks. What both of those entities do - and have done for a very long time - demonstrate that they are both genocidal shitbags. Supporters of either, be they Israeli citizens, Palestinians, or third parties, fucking suck right alongside them.
But I'm talking about a domestic issue here.
The fact is, both Trump and Biden will support genocide in Israel... but only one of them might commit genocide on queer people domestically. And it isn't Biden.
I will do anything I can to keep my daughter and all other queer people safe. That means keeping Trump out of office at all costs. If voting for someone else will do that, great. Until someone tells me who that person is, I will have to hold my nose and vote for Biden.
Oh, sure - to be perfectly clear, nothing I said was intended to address that concern, and your position is absolutely sound. I was only referring to the tangent of "I rarely get an answer, but I do get told I support genocide," outside of all that.
One of the other people who responded to her literally accused her of supporting genocide because she's focused on her queer daughter in the comment they replied to and not on Palestine.
Genocide is a hell of a fucking wedge issue.
It becomes a lot easier to get someone to trade up active current genocide for non-active future genocide. That anything works both ways and the GOP knows.
Last election I got to vote for "grab 'em by the pussy" or "black kids are just as good as rich kids" (or something similar. I can't remember the quote exactly and I don't have time to look it up).
This election I get to vote for genocide or genocide. I can't wait.
Edit: I'll take Biden over Trump any day. Trump terrifies me. I'm terrified of how many Americans are going to die if he wins. But I hate that these are our options.
One of these people was trying to do some good and made a verbal fumble probably caused by years of conditioning that got him where he is today and yes, old people say stuff like this by accident. He probably does have racist thoughts that he knows are bullshit but were put there by the shit job older generations have done in building society.
The other guy is a raging psycho who echoes Hitler phrases in his speeches.
Maybe vote to stop genocide of people in the country in which you live over a genocide that would happen whether or not Biden was in office because Trump would support it too.
Show me the current genocide of queer people in america.
Show me 1000’s of queer people being starved, left without power, medical help, water.
Show me the current genocide of queer people in america.
The same place the genocide of queer people in Germany was in 1932. Do you know what happened in 1933? Do you know what happened between 1933 and 1945?
But please, do tell me who I should vote for that has a statistically likely chance of winning the U.S. presidential election in November and will also definitely end the genocide in Israel. Give me that name.
Idgaf who you vote for.
Once again, you do you, but don’t come to me wanting my vote to help you re-elect Ol’ Genocidin Biden.
I’m not here to stop you, I am here to make sure everyone realizes they are supporting someone who has ACTIVELY helped Israel commit genocidal actions.
Not passively, he bypassed congress twice already to send them more fucking shells.
You are once again hung up on what someone might do compared to what they know someone else is doing.
Idgaf who you vote for.
Because you don't care about queer people.
but don’t come to me wanting my vote to help you re-elect Ol’ Genocidin Biden.
Because you don't care about queer people.
You are once again hung up on what someone might do compared to what they know someone else is doing.
I'm sure you think that because you don't care about queer people.
The whole phrase 'bypassing Congress' is propaganda. It's literal weapons sales. Those are not required to go through Congress. I disagree with those sales, but what he's doing is perfectly legal and not backhanded.
I can't believe anyone is so fucking willfully ignorant they can't see how much worse Trump is, but here we are.
I think these people are more typically from troll farms than genuinely pro-Palestine, but some of theme probably are that stupid as well. I guess it's a mixed bag.
There's plenty of stupid out there. I tend to go by Hanlon's razor for this sort of thing: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
I think that motto has been losing it's power recently. Ol' Hanlon didn't conceive of malicious stupidity
The reach of Troll Farms is very broad and very deep: https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/amp/
We are just sick of our government assisting Israel in its genocidal actions.
You want my vote, earn it.
Israel/US relations were at an all-time low under Biden already before the attack, and there's every indication he's using every back channel he has to make Netanyahu slow down his genocide. Sometimes diplomatic solutions are more efficient than a public Circus.
Honestly, at 30,000 dead.
Maybe it’s time we just step back and let Israel deal with the consequences of its own choices.
Shit let’s just start a new diplomatic relationship with one of their enemies.
We can be all like “Look here’s plenty of guns, ammo, and missiles. We are friends now, have fun!”
Yeah, US cutting its unconditional support to Israel was overdue decades ago. Howevers, as long as the rest of the political landscape doesn't follow, Biden acting unilaterally and publicly just amounts to political suicide with no gain for anyone.
I’ve even been told I should care more about people on the other side of the world than my own daughter’s life.
Most likely they don't have children of their own. Easier to say dumb shit like this.
I have 5 kids and I am the one who told them that.
They said they were afraid of their child going to a conversion camp.
I said that we can fix mistakes if everyone is still alive and pointed out that they would have to be the one to put them in the camp.
So yes, I believe that the importance of irreversible death is more important than temporary troubles.
I stand by that.
Alive?
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/lgb-suicide-ct-press-release/
But I'm guessing you'll say those suicides were their fault, not the conversion therapy's, so anyone put in those camps will be just fine.
Because you don't give a shit about queer people.
Their parents for now.
When Trump wins? Probably the government. Which is the whole fucking point of why I WANT TO KEEP MY DAUGHTER ALIVE.
For fuck's sake, you seem to think I should just abandon her or something. Why are you so goddamn callous about the lives of queer people?
Once again you try to redirect this towards me being against queer people.
No problem at all with them and wish them all the best.
So you think that if trump wins the government might go against all previous examples and pass a law to force minors into conversion camps?
Maybe, but I guarantee you that other people’s children are starving, dying, and suffering right now.
But they are far away and brown so they don’t matter.
Very possibly, and maybe they also had parents who didn't have much love for them, but to not understand or agree with the concept of a parent putting their own child first? That's very weird.
Ah, so I watched the video. He got upset because he was getting pressed against his beliefs. So he said something to try and trigger them. Although, I totally believe he meant it too. Who the hell are these lizard people. Stop voting for lizard people ffs.
Fuck this guy and all the TNGop that gerrymandered Davidson county (Nashville) to get rid any dissenting opinions.
Hey wait a minute I thought we were all voting for Republicans because the Democrats didn't immediately get Israel to do all the things we wanted them to do.
Literally who is voting Republican over Gaza? And before you say it, no. Not engaging with a two party election in which both candidates support genocide is not the same as voting for the one you don't like.
No some of us just aren't showing up to vote for Biden. Personally I'll be voting for a 3rd party candidate or writing in. We made it clear we didn't support Biden as a choice in the 2020 primaries. Progressives and leftists provided multiple alternatives we would have generally all backed in the general even though we definitely had our favorites.
Moderates responded by claiming "We can push Biden to the left." Many progressive and leftist voters took this to mean we had a seat at the table so we showed up in the 2020 general election. After four years of Biden it's very clear we continue to have no seat at the table despite being desperately needed to win the 2024 general election. Moderates continue to bank on using the fear of Trump to coerce progressives and leftists to show up to vote while having zero influence at all. Then they have a melt down and call us entitled when we say we've had enough and we're walking away from the table we don't have a seat at.
Moderates can either compromise with leftists or progressives or lose to fascists. It's really that simple.
Well, guess what's gonna happen then. If you are in danger of starving, do you refuse a bruised apple or wait for pizza?
Frankly I'm tired of these made up questions. Do you want to compromise with progressives and leftists or lose to fascists? Stop bargaining, make a choice and be confident that the outcome is what you chose.
So your choice is to lose to fascists...? Because if people don't vote for Biden, Democrats will lose to fascists.
No made up analogy there. Straight up go to jail, don't pass go, end of democracy, Trump dictatorship. This honestly is not hyperbole this time around.
Sounds like y’all need our help but aren’t willing to listen to us.
I heard all this same shit last time.
I am done being the only one who has to compromise.
Fix your candidate if you want my votes
So even though you don't think it's what you're doing, you're choosing neutrality. And "neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim."
I'd consider myself more a leftist than not, but I'm not blind. Events like this make it quite clear how much worse the other option is. Neither side actually cares, so I'm going with the side that does the least harm, even though I don't think it goes far enough.
Then you will continue to lap at their heels.
Or, you can stand up and find your voice and fight with us against it
And how many people will the Republicans kill, disenfranchise, or otherwise dehumanize before somebody starts listening to my voice?
I certainly couldn't have that on my conscience.
Moderates are the majority voting bloc. They must take the lions share of the responsibility.
But you will if you guys continue to say fuck you to is.
You guys are choosing to run that candidate with all the risk that takes.
Why is it ALWAYS on us to give in to you guys?
If your person is popular enough he will win, if not, we’ll that’s the horse that y’all bet on knowing how so many of us feel.
Stand up in the primaries, we're in the general election now. This is the only strategy that works with FPTP.
The 6 months before the general election is the only period when you don't want to create division. That gives you 3 years and 6 months for critical discussion which is fairly reasonable.
Stand up in the primaries
We did. There were a wide range of leftist and progressive candidates to chose from. Moderates said "none of those we choose this old guy who's gonna block strikes, force federal workers back into the office and supply weapons to Israel."
You're free to call yourself whatever you want but all you're doing is repeating moderate talking points for them. Whatever your beliefs are, your actions support moderate politics. The same politics which have failed to address Trump.
I'm not beholden to any party or wing thereof. I see a news story like this, though, and I'll do whatever I can to keep that party out of office.
Have you tried telling moderates they need to wise up and start compromising with progressives and leftists?
The Trump Supreme court has intervened to shut down any meaningful progressive initiatives (see student loan forgiveness, for example).
I think Biden fumbled that himself. Along with the BBB, increasing the defense budget, the CHIPS act and the way he treated the UAW. On top of that his appointments Yellen and Powell are in an outright war with American Workers, he pushed to block the rail strike and he's supplying weapons to Israel.
That's plenty of opportunities I can think of where Biden could have done something different. I'm open to other ideas as well. But if you're just trying to tell me Biden couldn't do anything different than he has that's a terrible sales pitch for someone you want me to vote for in the 2024 general. I'll be there but I'm gonna be voting 3rd party or a write in.
you don't seem to think much of your own and no one is trying to convince you of anything. sounds like you want a president who intervenes beyond the scope of his power. which you'll have under Trump. people get the leaders they deserve
Biden had the power to not get involved with the rail strike. He had the power to veto the legislation which blocked the rail strike. He has the ability to stop sending weapons to Israel.
people get the leaders they deserve
Indeed. That includes moderates who refused to compromise with leftists and progressives.
I don't think anyone was arguing you can push Biden to the left. I guess you had that Bernie commission but nothing was promised beyond that. What happened is more people voted for Biden so he won. That's democracy.
I'm not saying you have to vote for Biden, you're allowed to do whatever, but it's not some fairy tale that by not voting for Biden you're helping Trump. You are, you just don't care. You would rather Trump be president for the next 4 years because you think Moderate Democrats will learn some lesson that they didn't the last time the exact same thing happened in 2016.
What will really happen is moderates will claim the candidate catered to the left so much that it turned off moderates (or pick a group, didnt cater enough to suburban Hispanics or whatever), and the Left will say the candidate didn't cater to the left enough, and in 2028 that won't be resolved and the person who wins the most votes will win again entirely unrelated to the question. So you're not sending the message you think you're sending, you're just hurting the candidate whose interests are the closest to yours. Allowed, but not what I'd recommend as a political strategy.
What will really happen is moderates will claim the candidate catered to the left so much that it turned off moderates (or pick a group, didnt cater enough to suburban Hispanics or whatever), and the Left will say the candidate didn’t cater to the left enough, and in 2028 that won’t be resolved and the person who wins the most votes will win again entirely unrelated to the question.
But, thats what always happens anyways in every election, regardless if Trump is running or not.
So you’re not sending the message you think you’re sending, you’re just hurting the candidate whose interests are the closest to yours. Allowed, but not what I’d recommend as a political strategy.
I guarantee you, when they go back to do a postmortem post-election, and see a whole voting block not showing up, that'll definitely send a message.
They're actually already seeing it today, or do you not wonder why Biden keeps trying to pay off student loans every way he has available to him.
Its the party's responsibility to offer candidates that people can vote for, and not demand people to vote for the party so the other party does not win. Coercing a vote out of someone is not the American thing to do.
But, thats what always happens anyways in every election, regardless if Trump is running or not.
Right, my point is that you aren't "teaching moderate Democrats a lesson" by helping Trump. You're just helping Trump.
I guarantee you, when they go back to do a postmortem post-election, and see a whole voting block not showing up, that'll definitely send a message.
No post mortem has ever decided the candidate needed to be further from the center to gain more votes. I don't see why you think it would happen now. There are more people in the middle, and winning over a vote from Trump is worth twice as much as moving a non-voting Leftist to vote. Those are the tradeoffs of campaigning.
They're actually already seeing it today, or do you not wonder why Biden keeps trying to pay off student loans every way he has available to him.
Magnificent. Biden is doing something you like, this is somehow evidence of why you shouldn't vote for him.
Biden does some left wing stuff too, yes. He's not trying to alienate left wing people, he is doing electorally popular things, and he has to get Republicans on board for any law he wants to pass. This forces moderation. If you are demanding Medicare For All or you won't vote for him, you just aren't living in reality.
Its the party's responsibility to offer candidates that people can vote for, and not demand people to vote for the party so the other party does not win. Coercing a vote out of someone is not the American thing to do.
To be clear, the party isn't saying this, I am. Biden is trying to be popular to the widest swath of people possible, to beat Trump. If you're saying you're going to vote against him to send a message nobody is going to listen to, I think you're making a mistake and helping the guy you hate, way more than you are doing any good.
The way to send an inter-party message is in the primaries. Get your person (or a person significantly closer to you ideologically) to be the candidate and make everyone else choose between them or the guy they hate. If Bernie was the candidate I'd be telling moderates to vote for him just like this.
I honestly disagree with you on many of your assertions, but I have already voted in the primary to someone else besides Biden, to do that signaling you mentioned.
And as far as the student loan thing goes, the Democrats know they're really in trouble with the younger voting block, and the quantity and the insistence of them trying to do something over and over again is the point I was trying to bring to the discussion, to show that not voting party lines send signals (which you disagree with). Its not just about that I disagree with something that I like for him to do as you have asserted. It's a signal that they recognize already the problem and they're trying to course correct on it. The signal was received.
To bottom line this, it's the party's responsibility to save America from Trump, and not the voters. The party has to put up people that the voters will want to vote for. If he's not fit for office today, there's a good chance during the next four years he will become unfit for office.
For the good of the country, Biden should step aside, and let someone healthier run for the party nomination, OR have third party medical personnel confirm his cognitive abilities right now, and how long they will last throughout his whole second term in office, and make that information available publicly, so voters can use it to help decide on who to vote for.
I don’t think anyone was arguing you can push Biden to the left. I guess you had that Bernie commission but nothing was promised beyond that. What happened is more people voted for Biden so he won. That’s democracy.
Ok and I'm not voting for him again. That's democracy.
I said several times you're allowed to help Donald Trump win if you want to, millions of Republicans are doing it too.
That's a two way street. By refusing to compromise with leftists moderates are allowing Trump to win.
It isn't because the only question to be asked is whether a choice is helping Biden beat Trump, or not.
Biden is trying to be as electable as possible, to get himself elected over Donald Trump. If he doesn't go Leftist enough on your preferred policy, it's because he thinks being that far left will lose him votes. So "refusing to compromise with leftists" is the choice that helps beat Trump. And voting for Biden is the choice that helps beat Trump. One can be the consequence of the other, but that doesn't change the fact that not voting for Biden is helping Trump.
It isn’t because the only question to be asked is whether a choice is helping Biden beat Trump, or not.
That's your interpretation. You're free to have your own and I'm free to have mine. Buddy, the only reason you're continuing to engage is because you believe you can affect the outcome. You can't.
By refusing to compromise with leftists moderates are allowing Trump to win.
No, the party is allowing Trump to win, by not putting up candidates that people can vote for.
It's ultimately the party's responsibility.
No, we are voting against democrats because they continue to supply weaponry, ammunition, and a fucking carrier strike group to protect Israel from its own decisions.
If they want to massacre thousands of innocent children, let them do it on their own and take whatever fucking backlash they get.
They have no problems doing any of this as long as we are protecting them, let the chickens come home to roost on them
There's a third alternative for those who won't vote for Biden, but don't support Republicans. Primary. Essentially, picking democratic candidates that aren't endorsed by AIPAC on the downballot. We do have people like AOC, and Sanders whom that are against Israel, and Hamas.
That's more reasonable than voting against Democrats.
As far as consequences goes, Israel has been facing the prospect of decreased international support, but that will take a decade at best for it to be significant. Gen Z and Millennials don't really have good feelings toward Israel after their actions within war, and Israelis know it. It's on Israel to change policy along with a trial toward settlers and people that supports Netanyahu, and if they want them back, that's the only way to do it, otherwise, I don't see Israel having the longevity to avoid that.
I went independent already.
The democrats are supporting too many conservative views for me.
The republicans are too far right.
The commies are too far left.
Although typing this out just now made non-binary people finally click in my head.
Questions.
Which democrats are conservative? Is Bernie/AOC a conservative? Are they a commie? There's a portion of the democratic party that aren't centrists.
Republicans are definitely too far-right.
Sanders is only a democrats because they forced him to be to run for president.
But right about there
He's a Independent that caucus with the Democratic Party. But, my point is that there's two wings of the Democratic Party. It's the Bernie wing of the Democratic Party that is to be supported mainly. That wing won't be a relevant party if it was a third party, the GOP needs to die before that can happen.
If the party is shoving us to the side and only paying lip service to us and carting us out when it is time to vote, then are we really part of the party at all?
>There’s a third alternative for those who won’t vote for Biden, but don’t support Republicans. Primary.
nah. i'm just going to vote for someone i want to win in the general like cornel west or jill stein.
Primary election is not the same thing as the general election. And the downballot is what I'm talking about, which is why Cornel West or Jill Stein isn't even part of it. So, people who can't be willing to vote for Biden, can vote for people in the downballot.
You don't think that the alternative is worse? You don't think that Republicans will supply double the aid to Israel and half the aid to Ukraine?
It's a privileged position to be able to say "I want to wash my hands of the whole thing." People executing that privilege in 2016 got us to where we are today. People executing that privilege in 2004 got us to where we are today. People executing that privilege in 2000 got us to where we are today. How well do you think it's going to work out for you this year?
So I should bend the knee and just let you people ignore me and what I want and stand for?
I have compromised over and over and you people never, EVER, hold up your part of the deal.
I am DONE!
Run a candidate worth a damn or let the country get another bitch slap to the face like 2016.
Maybe everyone will wise up after that, until then enjoy your fucking president with a hardon for killing brown people
lol. "You people," as if there's less in common between you and me than there is between me and Democratic party leadership. What a joke.
Run a candidate worth a damn or let the country get another bitch slap to the face like 2016.
That's a weird way to say literal murder gangs and secret police. And that's not theoretical or fearmongering, Trump has actually said he would do that. There are MAGA groups drawing up plans right now.
Not to mention the article you're commenting on right this very moment, where a Republican is openly advocating for killing brown people. Yes, Biden's response to Gaza has been tepid at best. But the other option is currently saying, out loud and to the news, "turn Gaza into glass, baby! Let it burn!"
This isn't a situation where we come out of the other side embarrassed. This is life and death for millions, and the fact that you can petulantly fold your arms and say "no!" is choosing neutrality.
So I should bend the knee
No! You should fight for what you want to see in the world, which includes allowing for the reality that slowing down the speeding train is still helpful for the people on the tracks, even if the better option would be to get them off of the tracks. Then primary someone who won't leave the people tied to the tracks.
As long as we don't have ranked choice voting, this is the option we have: at each ballot box, we vote to do the least harm, and then we hold the people we voted for to account, with the threat that otherwise we'll primary them next time.
Yes it sucks. But every person in Gaza, every person in Ukraine, every woman and immigrant and homeless person and person without medical insurance and trans person and gay person and child in a classroom across this country--every single one of them, if they know the stakes, is terrified of the Republican regime that would make their lives living hells at best and eternal fascist rule at second best.
And they (and I) are terrified that there is no "next time" or "wise up" after a Trump win because they've banned any news that doesn't kiss the ring, or they've canceled elections, or they've forcibly disbanded any party that isn't the GOP.
You want me to believe that the principled decision, the moral decision, the ethical decision is to allow those millions of people to see their worst nightmare come true, just because 262 Democrats in Washington aren't listening to your voice enough?
If you've made your peace with that, fine. But don't try to tell me that allowing that carnage is more righteous.
Yet knowing all of that, you guys are still choosing to support Biden.
You do you homie, maybe eventually the left will actually move left if you keep voting for them no matter how right wing they go.
Yet knowing all of that, you guys are still choosing to support Biden.
Where have I said a single word of support for Biden? I'm in this solely to defeat Trump.
You know both sides can be wrong. Just because Biden isn’t saying it doesn’t mean he’s not actively helping a genocide.
Bruh - where'd anyone say there isn't a genocide happening in Ukraine?
Let me be clear: The question of Russia's genocide of Ukrainians is no less uncertain than Israel's genocide of Palestinians. If one is genocide, both are genocide.
You're acting like this is some big-brained, "checkmate atheists" point you're making, but it completely falls apart when you consider who is and isn't getting help.
The US is arming Ukraine in it's defense against genocide.
The US is arming Israel in the perpetration of genocide.
If the US was arming Russia instead of Ukraine, you could bet your ass that "the kids" would be "whining" about it just the same, and you'd still be calling it manufactured outrage.
On the other hand - this all begs the question - would the US be so readily aiding Ukraine if the population weren't white and culturally similar? What if the Palestinians were white and christian?
Let’s stay on topic. I talked about him allowing isreal to wage a holocaust on Palestinians. If he would leverage the same sanctions on Israel as on Russia or even threaten them I wouldn’t have complaints.
So… it’s not genocide in Ukraine because Biden Isn’t helping Russia. Got it.
See, all along, I’ve been following Raphael Lemkin‘s definition of genocide, but now that I’ve got your newly updated version….
EVERYONE GENOCIDES!
I'm trying really hard to decipher this comment and failing miserably. I have no idea what you're saying.
Aight. I didn't mean that as an insult or anything. I don't know if I agree with you or not.
Or would you rather just judge books by their ability to fly?
This is not a figure of speech in English.
You're an Israeli disinformation account that is spreading hasbara/propaganda. Your speech patterns, account recency, and virulent and spiteful support for Israel's genocide of Gaza make that clear.
Get a life. Or a soul before you end up in hell