https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/nyregion/trump-civil-fraud-trial-ruling.html
The judge’s ruling in Donald J. Trump’s civil fraud case could cost him all his available cash. It also bars the former president from running a business in the state for three years.
I actually consider this a very big win for Trump.
Literal decades of fraud that netted him billions in profits and he only has to pay back $300 million.
Little decades of fraud, and he's only banned from being an officer or director for 3 years. He gets to keep everything else.
Once again a very rich person got away with decades of crimes and only had to give back a portion of the profits. $355 million is only a small portion of the money he has made in the past four decades.
Guy should have been forced to cough up the full 375, and then permanently banned from doing any more businesses in the state. Anything else is a gift.
I know Trump has done a lot of illegal stuff to make money over the years, but this trial is specifically about the over valuing of his properties in New York state. $300 million and loss of owning and operating businesses in the state, even temporarily, is a huge punishment for what he was on trial for.
If only his many other trials end the same way then maybe he will have faced justice. We'll have to see.
I'm no expert by any means but I think once he's kicked out of NY, it's going to be pretty difficult for him to get back in.
He also has the court appointed monitor for the next 3 years which he already complained is costing him money (by stopping him from committing more fraud).
On top of that, banks will think twice before doing business with him in the future making it very difficult for him to make money without risking what he already has
While I agree that it should have been much more, I think (well more of a hope) that the long term damage this will do will cost him and his family far more than if he never committed fraud in the first place... Then again, he's shown an amazing ability to avoid consequences this far
He hasn't really been kicked out, though. Has he? He's banned from "serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years" but the business certificates were not cancelled. The judge modified his original order from September to vacate the directive to cancel them. That means that when the monitor, who Trump is paying about $186,000/month, is done in three years, he'll be back in control of it all.
Oh... I misunderstood that part then, I thought that part of the order was still in place. That's not as bad for him. My hope is that the monitor digs up a lot more dirt in that time and hands it over, like they did a month or so back
He's not allowed to control or direct the company for those 3 years, and the sum of the judgment might be enough to force the company to be sold off
Maybe, but somehow I don't think it'll play out that way.
I think one of two things will happen with the businesses. First, it may turn out that they owe so much because of the fraudulently acquired loans that they are not really profitable and will end up failing. They simply might not viable without the ongoing fraud. It'll get particularly dicey if the banks Trump and his companies defrauded decide to use the ruling to demand that the loans be immediately repaid. I doubt that will happen, but it'd be fun to watch.
On the other hand, Trump is such a bone head businessman that he could actually be richer if he'd just invested his inheritance in the stock market and not started his own businesses. This is a guy who managed to bankrupt multiple casinos. The saying, the house always wins, apparently doesn't apply when Trump is running the house. Without his tiny, incompetent hands at the wheel, his companies might actually start running more efficiently. Whoever will be running them instead of Trump may just do a better job than him, since they won't be so focused on committing crimes. Trump could actually make more money from them than he would otherwise.
Yeah, it's as if they scale penalties over time for the rich just like they scale wages for everyone else
I think the issue is that the prosecuter was unable to show that anyone was harmed from this fraud, and no company has been dissolved without showing direct harm to consumers in the past.
Little decades of fraud
Those are still 10 years each, right? They're not like half-decades?
A lot of those claims are made up lies from the democratic party, henceforth why Donald J. Trump the 45th president of the US (and should-be 46th) is in a trial now, quod the democratic party controls senate henceforth trial ensues against the last person standing in their way of political power
This is a reflection of America ... not of Trump
The fact that someone this corrupt continues to have a political career says more about America than anything else.
it says a lot about the political coverage in the media and half of the voting population, but I'm not sure it says something about all of us. some of which were raising alarms and flags for 50 years (I'm not that old but I know people that were) and were ignored. sometimes intentionally.
In history it's often portrayed as thirds.
A third is complicit in supporting fascist ideology
A third are active in fighting against fascist ideology
And a third are ignorant of any side and don't care if one or the other is supported so long as they are able to eat, have shelter and get by.
It's the ignorant masses that are the most volatile because all that's needed is a brief moment of their attention to change the course of history.
I have been speaking out against Donald Trump since he made the comment in his debate with Hillary Clinton about keeping us in suspense when they asked him if he’d accept the results if he lost.
In all of this time I have changed only one mind. ONE.
I said then, “I promise you, if he loses, he’ll claim it was stolen.” “No he won’t. He’s just making a show of it. He’s a really smart man and he’s playing with these career politicians.”
He won.
When he ran again, I reminded them of what he said in the debate with Hillary Clinton. When he lost, he did exactly what I said he would do (what HE said he would do). It didn’t matter that he won the last time. Still, nearly all of them said, “Well, they cheated the first time but they didn’t cheat hard enough. They cheated this time and Covid helped with voting by mail. Dead people voted.”
Even though he told them all EXACTLY what he would do if he lost, they still followed whatever he said after that and made excuses.
It blows my fucking mind.
In Norway, we have had a wave of politicians leaving their minister posts or other high positions due to tax evasion on use of governmental appartments, small incidents of inside trading and lack of citations/plagiarism on their master thesis. It all seems so small nd innocent comparred to what Trump has done while still running strong for his party.
Like he demolished Steeplechase, ruined the gut, and displaced African Americans, and forced them to live in old Sumner camps that weren't designed for winter occupation while not letting then in Trump village, AND collecting relocation fees peer family. https://youtu.be/r6XCs652VDY?si=N-WpoQzxmTk1ez_D
Your dad is correct but what he's either leaving out or failing to realize is that he's more corrupt than other politicians. He isn't like them because he's worse.
And only banned from serving as an officer or director. Engoron cancelled the dissolution order, so he keeps his real estate holdings and his ownership interests.
Yep, it's not like whoever works for his companies isn't going to take direction from him, regardless of whether he has a title or draws a salary.
Honestly, the whole ruling is utter bullshit based on both the amount of fraud and Trump and his lawyer's behavior in court.
I don't know if Russia or Saudi Arabia will protect him once he is no longer a useful idiot.
He's a cult leader. As long as he's alive and has a platform, he's useful for destabilizing the US.
Trump is too much of a narcissist to be grooming his eventual successor. Which means that when he finally shucks off his flabby mortal coil, there's going to be a power grab for control of the cult and they usually don't survive that. Everyone from his children to Marjie Traitor Greene is going to claim they're the heir to the MAGAt movement.
Sure, but it soon be reaching a bit when MAGAs are dying of old age faster than new MAGAs are created.
but will they really? one, I can see A. LOT. more massive fines being applied here. he owes nearly a half BILLION in fines and penalties now.
two, he's no longer nominally in charge. if the monitor says assets need to be sold assets are getting sold.
and three, being banned by new york from being on or running/owning any corporation is not an insignificant matter. in fact, it would say quite a bit if a company did associate with them after the penalty has expired. "junior and eric trump defrauded new york out of millions of dollars five years ago. you want to hire them on? what if they do that to us?". were this in a state like wyoming or north dakota where no one lives and no one really cares it would be one thing. but this is in probably the financial capital of country, if not the world. being banned from doing business in a place where business is constantly happening is bad, and people will remember that.
In his unconventional style, Justice Engoron criticized Mr. Trump and the other defendants for refusing to admit errors for years. “Their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological,” he said.
Borders. Sure.
You would put a cesspit at the edge of camp so you would be as far as possible from the smell.
His lack of contrition and remorse sits right knee deep in a cesspool border.
On at least one of his towers, they just skip numbering some floors so that the numbers are higher and makes it sound more impressive.
In many US buildings they will skip the 13th floor. Some actually build the thing, and make it unusable to anyone except maintenance, but many literally label the 13th floor as the 14th floor. Superstitious nonsense.
I was at the Wynn Las Vegas hotel which gets a lot of guests from China where 4 is unlucky so they skip the 4th, 13th, and 44th floors. The building is technically 45 stories tall but the elevators go up to 56.
Yeah, I knew about that one too. Building I used to live in went 12, 14a, 14. It was dumb but at least kept the numbering mostly accurate.
As an European I had to convert this and... 10996 square feet is absolutely MASSIVE and I don't mean just for an apartment in a tower in NYC either. It's massive for a house in the countryside.
To be fair, they are talking about a triplex, as in 3 units. But still, 10,000 each (if it really was 30,000 sq/ft) is still massive.
Republicans: “man, I just can’t think of a better candidate than this convicted fraudster. He can defraud the world and make America great again, again, again.”
The financial penalty reflects those lost profits, with nearly half of the $355 million — $168 million — representing the interest that Mr. Trump saved, and the remaining sum representing his profit on the recent sale of two properties, money that the judge has now clawed back from Mr. Trump and corporate entities he owns.
This is actually a massive win.
3 year ban from serving as an officer or board member, but doesn’t have to give up any companies, and retains ownership?
Given the rampant corruption and fraud and how long it’s been going on; that’s the least that should have happened.
$354 million here...
$83.3 million to E. Jean Carroll
$5 million on the first E. Jean Carroll case..
So $442,300,000 - Yow!
He better start writing some checks before there's a land rush for Trump Tower.
Because of the $100 million debt, Forbes magazine calculated the tower's net worth at $371 million
He has to wait to grift money from his cult of followers to pay for this again. $100 says they make merch to sell off this shit.
from what I have read, this $450 million fine must come from assets, and not campaign funds.
I don't know about the e jean money, but for this he's going to have to eat himself.
and just remember, the republican national committee currently has $8 million in the bank in an election year, that the new leadership promises will 100% go to elect trump. the money that's leftover from paying his legal bills that is.
It irks me that while Trump is usually called by his last name, like all men, when people talk about women they casually use their first names like Hillary or, in this case, E Jean. It's such a casual and mindless form of disrespect that few seem to notice.
Edit: WTF, no, Clinton's last name wasn't "already taken" by her husband. That's even more disrespectful. You can easily infer who is referred to from context, using her full name or even "Ms Clinton".
Is that broadly true? Hillary is Hillary because "Clinton" would obviously refer to Bill, since he was President. She also embraced the first name reference in her campaign materials. What about other famous women? Margaret Thatcher is Thatcher, J.K. Rowling as Rowling, Angela Merkel is Merkel. On the other side Bernie Saunders is Bernie. Perhaps calling someone by their first name is a sign of affection, not disrespect?
he's only barred from controlling his businesses for 3 years? that doesn't seem like a big deal
I work in a hospital. I've seen patients that have had full signs of life, nothing indicating that they might die within the next 12 hours, but guess what? When I came in for my next shift? Boom. Dead. It's the weirdest thing. And alternatively, patients who look like death can cling on to life for months and months and months.
His motor mouth doesn't stop running but he's hardly a picture of health and he's getting on in years.
Exactly. That ruling is symbolic. They'll just put someone in place that still carries out his wishes.
It's naive to think that if the businesses are allowed to continue, and they continue to bear his name, that he won't maintain some form of control. The man may be stupid in a lot of ways, but he and his allies are perfectly capable of getting the right people into the right positions to do his bidding - and that presumes that those people aren't already in place.
Trump is a loser.
This is the takeaway we need to impress on a MAGA crowd, that is immune to all the immorality and treason.
Could this ruling result in criminal charges or are there already proceedings underway in this matter? I mean, the judge has determined that Trump is personally responsible for fraud amounting to several hundred million dollars, right? Accordingly, he himself is banned from doing business in the state of New York for the next three years, which makes it clear that Trump himself has been found to have committed fraud. But is that all? Fraud on this scale must also be criminally relevant, mustn't it? Or is it really possible in the USA to get off the hook simply by paying a fine, even for such serious criminal misconduct?
Legally, it can be explained quite easily. Civil liability must only rise to the standard of "preponderance of the evidence", meaning something like 'more likely than not'. A criminial conviction however, must rise to the standard of "beyond reasonable doubt". That's the difference.
I get that. I just don't understand why the public prosecutor's office didn't at least try. But hey, maybe they will later on. I guess we will have to wait and see.
Come up with the money or secure a bond within 30 days
Or what? Does anyone think he's actually going to pay?
He's going to Alex Jones it at worst, and at best do the same but smarter.
Does anyone think he's actually going to pay?
Then they seize his assets to cover it. Trump Tower goes to public auction.
Well, there wouldn't have been prison in any case from this trial, as it was a civil suit, not a criminal one. But, he is facing 91 felony charges in total spread across a few cases that are currently working their way through the court, so maybe. Probably not. But maybe.
It's still an interesting question. Why was this a civil case rather than criminal?
And there's no great answers. Basically a lot of it comes down to civil being easier to win and a safer bet than criminal proceedings.
https://apnews.com/article/crime-new-york-lawsuits-manhattan-bb0b240218679e38f59b6fe28566272c
Hurting his finances is arguably more effective. Going to jail makes him a martyr to his supporters, and he can appeal a criminal charge until he dies. Taking his money makes him a loser right now.
Also, doesn't a criminal fraud charge requires a victim, meaning a complainant that can show they have lost money as a result of the defendant's actions? I'm sure those people exist, but that's not what this particular trial was about. However, maybe others will come forward now that he has lost this trial.
Sure. He has 30 days to write a 350 million dollar check as payment or appeal bond.
Edit : Opps. The judgment was $354.9 million, but there's been $98.6 million of pre-judgment interest, meaning the actual total Trump alone owes is $453.5 million.
