Religion is ignorance and refusal to face reality.
As long as people behave, treat others, and vote according to the sacred scriptures written by a crackhead thousands of years ago, and their influence shapes the world around me and puts a limit to my freedom, then there will be no distinction between religion and extremism. The lesser of two evils is still evil.
I'm a pansexual protestant Christian skepticist, who has not once tried to convert anyone and votes for far left parties. Please enlighten me how I'm inherently ignorant and taking your freedom.
Please enlighten me how I'm inherently ignorant
Despite millenia of disproven lies about a non existing almighty being, you still believe this being indeed does exist and indeed is almighty without ever having any measurable effect on the world whatsoever.
How is that not ignorant?
and taking your freedom.
I don't support the statement that you personally take away anyones freedom.
But organized churches have a long standing tradition of suppression and if you are part of one you support that at least indirectly.
I think you understand neither what a skepticist is, nor how religion or free churches work. And by your logic I assume you have to be an anarchist, since every government that ever existed - or society for that matter - has exercised some form of suppression.
I think your overgeneralizing, intollerant way of thinking is sickening and hardly better than that of a racist or sexist.
And please don't tell me what my beliefs are. That's pretty church-y of you.
I think you understand neither what a skepticist is, nor how religion or free churches work.
Well you're wrong in both, but I am curious why you would think that.
And by your logic I assume you have to be an anarchist,
Hilariously wrong here.
since every government that ever existed - or society for that matter - has exercised some form of suppression.
Care to explain what that has to do with anything I said in this thread?
I think your overgeneralizing, intollerant way of thinking is sickening and hardly better than that of a racist or sexist.
And I think you resort to personal insults because you have no valid arguments against my positions.
But please humor me and tell me how I am intolerant in an comparable way to a racist or sexist.
And please don't tell me what my beliefs are. That's pretty church-y of you.
I'm a pansexual protestant Christian
Are you kidding me? You told about your beliefs yourself.
And it's especially rich after your whole post made assumptions about me.
Well you're wrong in both, but I am curious why you would think that.
You claim I believe in an almighty being, yet this is a key point where a skepticist might disagree with your average Christian. Moreover you claim I am supporting oppression, yet you don't even have the slightest idea what church I'm in and what they do or ever did. So you seem to have either huge misconceptions or you are prejudiced to a point where you are dismissive of anything that doesn't fit your narrative.
I'm a pansexual protestant Christian
Are you kidding me? You told about your beliefs yourself.
This just shows how you don't view Christians as individuals at all. Claiming to know exactly what I believe in based on that sole statement is exactly as silly as me claiming: 'I know what you believe, because your are an atheist.' Acting like you know a strangers beliefs for certain is arrogant to say the least.
Care to explain what that has to do with anything I said in this thread?
Well, you judge churches based on the fact that some where oppressive in the past (and yes, I know some are still today). Based on that you either have to hate pretty much all governments, since it obviously doesn't matter whether anything have changed, or you have double standards.
And I think you resort to personal insults because you have no valid arguments against my positions.
If you feel attacked by me calling out your intolerant and overgeneralizing way of thinking, that's just because you are unable to defend yourself against a fact. Your words leave no other conclusion than that your are extremely prejudiced against Christians. You might have expressed yourself badly once, but you doubled down on your hate and ignorance. You might have good reasons for it, but would you excuse someone being racist for having had bad encounters with an ethnic group? Just as you probably wouldn't, neither do I excuse your statements about Christians.
I didn't want to reply at all because it is starting to get ridiculous and noone else keeps reading this.
But please just for the sake of being honest, show me where I am intolerant or hateful?
I replied to other comments in this thread as well, there should be plenty to pick from.
Show me my intolerance, show me my hate.
I even make it easier for you.
I think religion is a cancer to society.
I think all religions are basically cults.
Make a straightforward argument how my statements are either hateful or intolerant.
Because while those statements are my honest opinion, I am still strongly in favour of freedom of religion.
I would never forbid anyone from practicing their religion as long as they don't infringe on someone else's rights in doing so.
I don't hate anyone for being religious. There are wonderful religious people.
Still I think they are wonderful despite their religion, not because of it.
I don't even hate you, despite your ongoing insults towards me.
I just think you are very wrong on a fundamental level and haven't yet learned to deal with being told so.
show me intolerance show me hate
sacred scriptures written by a crackhead thousands years ago
a) He didn't write it himself
b) He wasn't a crackhead, He was a carpenter (as far I know)
Your use emotionally charged language to further your own goal of spreading hate towards religion.
Corporations have been stealing ever since the dawn of time, anyone working under a big company willingly is not the one to blame, and also what’s with this ‘I know everything’ stuff in the comments section? Is your only basis of hating 90% of the world’s population is that they believe in a god? If anyone can tell for a fact that God doesn’t exist, go on, but everyone knows its a matter of choice and you can’t prove that god doesn’t exist
You are all over the place.
But I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and reply to your specific points.
Corporations have been stealing ever since the dawn of time, anyone working under a big company willingly is not the one to blame
That is a strawman argument.
In most societies people are more or less forced to work for some employer, so I think it is hard to blame a worker for the company he works for.
And additionally I think one can blame a worker if they choose to work for the ethically worst companies.
Is your only basis of hating 90% of the world’s population is that they believe in a god?
That is very insulting.
I don't hate religious people, my mother is deeply religious and I truly love her.
But she is misguided and gives time, effort, believe and most of all money to an organization that still to this day promotes homophobia, suppresses women and staunchly defends child rapists.
I don't like that and I won't stop criticizing it.
but everyone knows its a matter of choice and you can’t prove that god doesn’t exist
Off course it is your prerogative to believe in god.
I wouldn't ever want to ban you from believing in whatever you want.
But you shouldn't be surprised if people put you in the same category with people believing in a flat earth or something like that.
If you just choose to believe random stuff without evidence than it is only natural that your opinion is not taken seriously.
It is not like there are two equally valid theories about what to believe.
One group believes in things if there is proof and one group believes in things because some dude from the bronze ages wrote it down.
I am gonna make an apology for the fact that I am getting a little bit excited, which might be becoming apparent, religion is a complex subject and discussing so much matter is a bit complex and no one here in the comments seems to be interested in having a discussion but rather spouting nonsense against 90% of the world
But I will agree that I am also against giving money to organizations that promotes hate, whether it’s affiliated with religion or not, that money is better spent on a better cause, and I also respect the fact that you don’t hate religious people, but also there are lots of institutions affiliated with religion that work for a good cause, a lot of churches and mosque provide shelter, gurudwaras are famous for providing food, atleast where I live
The thing is I don’t think a person should be judged for their beliefs but rather they should be judged based on their actions, a person kills someone, it should be condemned, no matter if he is a priest or the pope, a person donates money to the charity and helps someone, that should be praised, no matter what he believes personally about god
Me believing in a flat earth is me disbelieving in a proven fact, you would be right to call me dumb, but there is no study that disproves the existence of god, so if anyone believes in one, you can’t call him/her dumb because it’s not against any proven fact, it’s just that he thinks that life around him is enough evidence that someone out there exists, and there is nothing unscientific or unreasonable about that, and spouting hate comments against them and claiming they are dumb, banning them for wearing a piece of clothing is just wrong, no matter how you look at it.
Hey first and foremost, thanks for the good faith discussion.
I want you to be reassured that I don't hate you for your religion.
And I don't think you or any religious person is necessarily dumb.
We just happen to fundamentally disagree on certain points that seem to hold at least some value for both our lives.
And I will gladly admit that believing in god has the fundamental difference to believing in a flat earth that you described. The flat earth is soundly disproven and the existence of god is not.
I would in reply try to refine my point to saying that I think believing in god is comparable to believing in the easter bunny or the often quoted flying spaghetti monster (that I purposefully didn't want to invoke earlier).
Yes you are absolutely free to believe in any of those things.
I would fight to defend your right to believe in them.
But I cannot ever accept it as truth or even an educated opinion to hold without any proof pointing specifically towards the existence of any god.
And not to end on a negative note.
I love life around me, I love nature, I love animals.
I think the world is a wonder.
I do not believe any god made it the way it is.
I have no reason to believe that.
I just love it for itself.
Nobody is saying that people should be judged by their religion. People here are saying Religion itself encourages anti-science and bigoted views.
Secondly, it's absolutely unscientific to believe that the lack of disproof is sufficient evidence for belief. This is fundamentally unreasonable and is just as much proof as saying that pigs can fly when nobody observes them.
No, religious people are not morally wrong for being religious, and they are not to blame. Religion itself is.
Listen everyone! According to cowbee, we should make sure that from now on, nobody will ever put out any hypothesis ever again! It’s absolutely unscientific! Any claim should be absolutely 100% correct and if not, we should leave it at there!
Despite millenia of disproven lies about a non existing almighty being, you still believe this being indeed does exist
There is a whole area in Philosophy called Philosophy of Religion that would really like your disproof of the existence of such a being. They have atheists and theists alike.
I don't have to proof something doesn't exist, someone that wants to be taken seriously has to proof why they would believe something does positively exist.
"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
"Academic philosopher Michael V. Antony (2010) argued that despite the use of Hitchens's razor to reject religious belief and to support atheism, applying the razor to atheism itself would seem to imply that atheism is epistemically unjustified. According to Antony, the New Atheists (to whom Hitchens also belonged) invoke a number of special arguments purporting to show that atheism can in fact be asserted without evidence."
If only you could read, maybe you'd be more tolerant, but I doubt it, sigh.
The sheer arrogance to post a philosophical minority opinion paired with an insult and then end it with a sigh.
And while I am not particularly familiar with Mr. Antony's work I can tell you that he either didn't understand or purposefully misused Hitchen's Razor insofar as you indeed can not apply it to Atheism the same way you can apply it to christianity.
The reason for that being that there is no particular thing at all you have to believe to be an atheist.
Atheism in and of itself doesn't assert anything at all.
So there is nothing that could be dismissed.
Atheism says there is no reason to believe in god.
How does Hitchen's Razor dismiss that? It doesn't.
Not to mention your quote still is no argument towards the positive existence of god.
And if you don't show me how I am supposed to be intolerant, I will take it as the baseless insult that it is and will no longer discuss with you.
Atheism says gods doesn't exist. So yes, it very much goes both way.
Stop moving the goal post. You're just an intolerant cunt that freely bash on people, insisting that any form of belief is bad, because you can't conceive a good one in your defective brain.
I'm not trying to prove that gods exist, as unlike you, I'm not saying gods exist, because I don't care about proving or disproving either way. I don't feel so egocentric that I need others people to feel like I do.
It helps some people, and the only viable and truly defensible position is agnosticism. And like everything with humans, yes, it is sometimes used for evil. If that's your argument, you're against everything a human can ever use and you should become an hermit.
A cunty intolerant hermit, when you think about it, which would prolly help people more than the stupid points you're trying to make.
PS : You've already proven your incredibly limited view by stating before that religion = Christianity basically.
I did what now?
I said there are millenia worth of disproven lies.
Which there are.
Like that the whole world was flooded and repopulated by one single family, which is disproven by DNA samples.
Or that it is gods will that priest stay unmarried, which is historically agreed that it was a measure to keep wealth inside the church organization.
Or so so many more.
I never said there was prove god doesn't exist.
And like I said, there doesn't need to be as long as there is no documented sign whatsoever that points towards god actually existing.
I see where I misunderstood. To reframe, you're saying that claims made by various religions/churches, which are presented as evidence of God, have been disproven, not that God has been disproven.
I never said there was prove god doesn't exist. And like I said, there doesn't need to be as long as there is no documented sign whatsoever that points towards god actually existing.
You also said: "A nonexistent almighty being". Did you mean no gods exist, or did you mean all the gods people claim to exist so far have been debunked?
More importantly, for the claim "no god exists" specifically, I disagree that no proof is required in general. There needs to be an actual proof as much as there needs to be a proof of the negation, that "a god exists", for either to be worth accepting. If neither can be proved, why commit to believing the truth of either?
Additionally, disproving particular examples doesn't prove the general rule. Having no documented sign pointing to the existence of a god does not confirm the absence of a god anymore than having no documented signs of a gas leak in your home confirms the absence of a gas leak in your home. Perhaps the detector you are using is broken, perhaps the type of gas leaking in your home is not detectable by your detector.
It would also be incredibly hard to design any kind of empirical test to confirm or disconfirm the existence of gods in general (not just the christian flavored ones).
If you are claiming something doesn't exist you should prove it. Why should I take your argument seriously without proof? You see how this goes both ways?
No it doesn't go both ways.
If something exists it should be easy to prove.
There should be some form of sign of it.
On the other hand it is hard to disprove the existence of anything at all.
How do we know there is not some teapot in outer space?
We can't.
But that is no reason to believe there is one.
No it doesn't go both ways.
If something exists it should be easy to prove. There should be some form of sign of it.
This is absolutely not true. Things can exist without being accessible to you directly in a manner that makes it easy to prove their existence.
On the other hand it is hard to disprove the existence of anything at all. How do we know there is not some teapot in outer space?
Proving non-existence is not always hard. If we were arguing about the food in your fridge and I were claiming you had food in your fridge when you did not you could easily prove me wrong by just showing me the contents of your fridge.
More importantly, why does the hardness of doing a thing give you special status to make claims without proof? Seems like you are artificially constructing rules here solely because they benefit your position.
We can't. But that is no reason to believe there is one.
The universe is massive. There are teapots here. Why is it not plausible to believe some other alien race would not also construct some kind of teapot? Also, consider the fact that all teapots here on earth are literally teapots in "outerspace" in some sense.
Richard Dawkins has demonstrated that you don't need to know a lick of philosophy to be an atheist. Simply cite anecdote as universal knowledge.
I don't get what your sexuality has to do with anything, but anyhow.
Why do you have to be {insert cult-membership here} if you believe in something? Don't dare to believe {whatever} for yourself? Do you need to be told what to believe and how? You don't make it sound like that, yet you are christian, hence member of said cult? I don't get the correlation. Why does one rarely hear people say "i believe in some god, but I'm not a member of blahblah"?
Somewhere along the line churches have gotten it all wrong, along with supporting corrupt politics. So it's them that needs fixin is how I see it
Unfortunately I don’t think you will be able to actually getting anything from them. They clearly already look down on you for believing what you believe.
Care to back your statement that ‘religion’ is ignorant? No one has any Idea what happens after death or are you enlightened enough to know and which case I would like you to tell us, which religion is taking away your freedom? You have the choice, you can follow any religion or leave it
Care to back your statement that ‘religion’ is ignorant?
You can just go back and read your own comments, makes a pretty strong case.
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No one has any Idea what happens after death
What happens after is that brain stops functioning, as a result of that, your body starts to rot. Nothing else happens. Your brain, that I argue is the real you, stops functioning.
which religion is taking away your freedom?
My parents circumcised my penis when I didn't know what they were doing, they permanently stole a part of me; and as a result of that crap, my sex life is ruined forever. They took away my freedom because of you shitheads who are ruining our world by influencing people into accepting religion. You guys have the audacity to claim that people have a choice after indoctrinating children of religions so that once they are adult they follow your religion.
If you are so about choices, then make sure your kids don't get to know about superstitious beliefs until they are an adult and only then tell them about your fantasies that you believe that a bearded man is watching us from the sky. I bet your kid is going to think you've gone crazy.
Are you kidding me? Religion is supremely useful in controlling and exploiting people. It promises all of the wonderment and fantasticnous you can imagine while also promising the absolute worst nightmares you can imagine, and all you have to do is pay and pray, and the prayers are optional.
"Work in service to your masters and you will be rewarded after you're dead. Defy your masters and you will be punished for eternity" is the perfect tool of control for the uneducated/unintelligent.
Religion is not a useful tool and it’s not good in general
People who are active in religious congregations tend to be happier and more civically engaged than either religiously unaffiliated adults or inactive members of religious groups, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of survey data from the United States and more than two dozen other countries.
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That's just saying "people who are in a social community are happier and more engaged than those that aren't" because most social communities are currently religious focused.
Sure. Doesn't change the fact that Religion can be used as a tool for social engagement and can have a measurable, good effect on people's lives.
When people misuse a hammer to cause harm you don't blame the hammer.
"guns don't kill people, people kill people", does that mean there should be zero regulations on guns?
Religion is the same, and historically has been the CAUSE not the TOOL for countless genocides and "justified" killings.
“guns don’t kill people, people kill people”, does that mean there should be zero regulations on guns?
Strawman. I was mentioning hammers, are there any regulations on hammers? I never once called a gun a tool.
Religion is the same, and historically has been the CAUSE not the TOOL for countless genocides and “justified” killings.
If you believe the people causing genocides wouldn't have fun another reason to excuse them I have a bridge to sell you. The Holocaust wasn't motivated by religion.
Yeah, I'll give you the strawman, sorry about that. Made sense before I said it.
The Nazi belief was absolutely a religion. Not one of deity, but of superiority. A group of people held the same belief and tried to beat that belief into the whole world. TBH, sounds just like the crusades, just less successful. Thank goodness.
The Nazi belief was absolutely a religion. Not one of deity, but of superiority.
That agrees with my point that if you managed to abolish all religions people would still find excuses to perform atrocities. They'll just do it in the name of their "superiority" instead of their "god".
A distinction without a difference. Religion produces demonstrable harm to many people. To be religious is to be an extremist. The entire idea that a being from your imagination should influence my behavior is whack.
To be religious is to be an extremist.
Over 80% of people in the US believe in one religion or another. The country is not 80% extremists.
And there’s the problem with the idea of extremism to begin with. It’s only extreme because too different. The idea of extremist ideologies is inherently conservative, and really we should be judging ideologies by how they negatively or positively affect people.
Because apparently Christianity is the only religion in existence and all religious people want you to practice their religion. Or something.
Again, can you tell me how if you are not religious, how is religion influencing you? And how is your opinion different than any other religious extremist who also claims that anyone who doesn’t follow x religion is bigot? It’s the same thing where everyone is just hating everyone else who doesn’t share the same belief, except being an atheist somehow gives you a free pass to bash on everyone else’s belief, you all then should not be complaining if anyone starts saying all atheism is extremism
Edit: I am gonna clarify that I personally don’t think atheism itself is extremism, anyone has the right to chose what path they think is correct
Something about my religious leaders wanting to strap electrodes to my junk and torture me for being gay has given me some strong opinions. Don't you dare dismiss my experiences as invalid, I'm fighting terrorists here.
My friend is estranged from his family because he is trans and they don't accept him because the bible says blablabla
Religion teaches and reinforces bigoted and anti-science views, generally. Yes, there are good people that reject this basis of their religion, but religion itself has done far more harm than good.
How do you qualify "more harm than good"? You're making a pretty broad claim about 85% of the world's population, according to Pew Research.
You're putting words in my mouth, lmao. I explicitly separated Religious people from Religion itself, and you're tying them together as slander.
Religion has done more harm than good as it has been the foundation of racism, homophobia, sexism, transphobia, rejection of science such as Evolution, and more. Religious people can be good, and have done good things, but Religion itself is harmful.
I respect people's rights to practice, but I don't respect Religious people using religion as justification for anything bigoted, anti-science, or generally harmful.
The audacity of claiming that religious adherents are uniquely racist!
Racism is literally the foundation of Darwinism, as explicitly stated by Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of the DNA double helix.
It's right there in the title of Darwin's book: On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
It's human nature to fight each other, and the tendency towards extremism is universal.
I did not claim religious people were uniquely racist, only that religion supports and reinforces racism. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth and actually answer my actual points.
Human Nature is a naturalistic fallacy, and is a way to avoid actually addressing whether or not religion assists and reinforces racism or not.
You said it's the foundation of racism.
foundation noun foun·da·tion 1 : the act of founding here since the foundation of the school 2 : a basis (such as a tenet, principle, or axiom) upon which something stands or is supported the foundations of geometry the rumor is without foundation in fact
Technical arguments don't change the fact that Darwinism is inherently racist.
Please provide sources for your claims, what religion you want to believe in is a different topic, read the books of all the major religions and see how many and which one of them is ‘bigoted’ and ‘Anti-Scientific’
If you are not gonna do that, atleast not fire such claims because you yourself don’t have the knowledge.
All major religions reject science by asserting the baseless claim of divinity. They propose a foundational divine, without any proof. This is anti-science.
As for being bigoted, quick examples are Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions supporting homophobia, transphobia, sexism, strong gender roles, and more.
Institutionalized religion is bad, religion for yourself isn't imho. I can understand the need for answers, although I don't necessarily need them. I think that is part of tolerance, to accept the believes of others.
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"Religion for yourself" in the age of internet of called "personal belief". So, the term "religion" now only means, like it or not, "institutionalized religion".
This is 100% caused by the fact that people "identify" as Y (not using X as a variable, as it is now a fucking confusing buzzword), and are subsequently grouped together in "echo rooms" by various platforms algorithms. This happened so overwhelmingly that in less than a decade, it redefined the default behavior of people, online, and you will now see people automatically seeking those echo rooms. Even on Lemmy, where people are literally seeking instances that will validate their own beliefs, and block those they do not share.
I can understand the need for answers, although I don't necessarily need them.
Btw do you think atheists always need answers for everything? I think atheists can be okay without knowing the answer. The religious people are the ones who always wants an answer(wrong answer counts) and they always explain thinks they can't explain as "god's creation/mystery/whatever"
No I certainly don't have have all the answers, the people that think they do are a huge problem.
I can understand the need for an explanation, but I simply don't have that need, although I like to know how things work. But if we as humantiy don't know I don't think its so bad.
Yeah, if you try to change the facts because of your believe we have a problem. If your religion can adapt to new facts (or live besides them) I don't really care.
People created god as an explaination of how the world is created and maintained. People who do science really knows that we can't know everything for sure, and are familiar and okay with not knowing that thing.
I said we cant know everything but we must be okay with that. Religion just takes something they see and put the "god made this" label and refuses to question god.
If religious people don't have that need for explaination, would they belive god created everything? Aren't they okay with saying "we don't really know how everything was created"?
I can understand the need for an explanation
Religion usually explains with something wrong and the followers simply take it as real truth. Don't say atheists are the ones who need explaination for everything
There is no one religion and they sure don't handle conflicts with science the same way, so which one are you talking about?
For example, Buddhism in its core is accepting of change in the world and aims to adapt.
which one are you talking about?
Which is "your" religion? I'm pretty sure it isnt Buddhism. I am talking about whatever religion that puts "god" as almighty and the one who made everything including us.
I dont have one, but its an important part of peoples lives, so i think about this stuff.
The point being, that i have less issues with that way of resolving conflicts between your believes and scientific facts.
Thoose "god belivers" are like against spirit of science. Not scientific facts but scientific spirit of accepting that we have much more things to know and cannot put a god as someone who made everything the way it is, without questioning.
An adult that still believes in Santa might not lead to anything bad, but it leads to them indoctrinating their children to also believe in Santa into adulthood,
And if some dude can live on the north pole and travel to every home on earth in one night, then other equally ludicrous ideas might not sound so far fetched
And before you know it you're wearing radioactive stickers to rebalance your chakras, sticking jade eggs up your ass to bring luck and you're blowing up a shopping mall because your imaginary friend hates gay people
This is a classic slippery slope fallacy. Millions of religious people exist from all sorts of ideological spectrums. The vast, vast majority are not evil and don't do bad things.
The extremism present in religious people is also apparent and present in atheists, agnostics, or whatever generic belief system you can think of. Religion by itself doesn't cause extremism: ad hominems, whataboutisms, and disinformation causes extremism. Constantly comparing yourself to an enemy and convincing yourself you are in the absolute right causes extremism. Sure, you see some 'religious' people going crazy and shooting up places. They also have manifestos that are completely detached from reality in a way that reeks of far-right propaganda and disinformation, and never any real coherence or thought given to the religious teachings they supposedly follow (if they mention their religious texts at all, it's often cherry-picking or outright incorrect).
We should not try to fix the issues of mental health that plague a lot of countries by going after religion. If anything, that would only backfire by virtue of validating any persecution complex religious people might have. We should instead focus on providing affordable mental healthcare that is easily, immediately accessible and normalized for the wider population, as well as providing clear sources of valid information and having any questionable sources that construe facts and claim to not be news sources in lawsuits or elsewhere be forced to clearly denote themselves as not news regularly.
That sounds an awful lot like sexual depravity, which makes god sad for some reason so i believe you'll be cast into a fiery pit to have your skin melted off, regrown, then melted off again, for all eternity. And this will be just, a punishment that fits the crime
And while you're in excruciating pain for all eternity just remember: god loves you ♥️
You don't need religion to believe in something, did this occur to you? I don't have anything against people who believe some even weird shit. Let me hear it, let us discuss it, but do as you please (who am i to judge? I don't know the truth).
But the moment you enter some cult (or religion if you prefer that term), you're on my hate-list. They are to control the weak sheeple. Period.
Why do people always take it, that belief equals religion?
It did, because believe systems are religions I didn't differentiate, because its besides the point.
I think the argument for moderation is the worst in the religious context.
Pascal was right about his Wager in one way. If god exists, it should change everything for you. Especially the christian one. Eternity in pain or pleasure outweighs everything.
If that is your reality, how is failing god moderation?
Seriously if you don't want people to die from cancer at all, how is that not extermist?
Are reference point defines "moderation"? Look at us vs eu politics.
Even if you want to define moderation as the average or median position in a society, then Nazism can be moderation if you get enough Nazi together.
Wake up, my fellow extremist.
In regards to the wager, the actual canonical depiction of Hell wasn't eternal torture but instead not being allowed into God's presence so, eh...
Miss me with turning into Fanta regardless
Which misses the point of my argument.
I don't say you are wrong. But my point is strictly about what people believe and how these beliefs should be quite important and turn "moderation" to "extermism" from their pov.
Pascal's wager doesn't even attempt to make a philosophical argument for God's existence, and it only works if you assume a singular god. Of course in this case it's Christianity.
So let's say someone agrees that it's better to worship a god on the off chance they exist than to not do so and end up in hell, now what? Where do I go from here? You've opened up a can of worms because now I have to decide what the logical choice is (since PW only relies purely on logic) in which god to choose.
The "logical choice" only works when you have a singular alternative, but if you have a dozen different gods to choose from then everything falls apart. The only logical thing to do is to worship the god with the worst hell, on the off chance that they are the one true God. At least you spared yourself from that.
In the end though the wager essentially only sees/works with atheism and one religion, which is why it's so flawed. The moment you introduce multiple religions to a coin toss logic scenario it fails to work.
You typed so much and understood so little.
I don't think pascal's wager works. Which is why I said, I said he is right about one thing which is the infinites reward fucking up everything. IF!!! there is a god, and he rewards and punishes you like pascal believed, then everything becomes irrelevant compared to it. Failing to follow god would be an extremist action. Unacceptable due to the unmeasurable damage it would cause. Think about it, in an atheistic world, a Terror Attack is bad, like really bad, but the damage is finite. In pascal's world, disbelief has worse consequences. The harm is bigger, to a literally infinite amount. For pascal, your disbelief should be worse than bombing a Christian church while there is a service.
You are talking about different and compatible critiques of pascal's wager, and your condescension at the beginning of the post is unwarranted because he is correct, just not talking about the same thing you are.
Your assumption is that religion wants you to suffer.
Religion, in my experience, wants you to be compassionate, accepting and give back to the community. This is not extreme.
Could you show me that assumption? I don't see that assumption present in my comment. Please help me to understand your perspective. Thanks.
Most people talk about Religions people being fanaticists with a disregard for human wellbeing. (Outside of their religion) I associate this with the sects that emigrated to America due to prosecution in Europe and American New religons. (Amish, those Utah people etc., those wierd evangelicals(?))
Of course there are also good religious groups in America.
How is that related to my comment and how does that answer my request for clarification? I am sorry but this seem completely unrelated.
Tbf extremism itself isn't wrong. Any perspective can be considered extreme if it is too different from the status quo. Different isn't necessarily bad.
Granted religious extremism is typically far right reactionary ideology which is bad so I'm not really defending it. However, I find that a lot of people, especially Americans, call anything that radically challenges the current system extreme and therefore bad.
Tbf extremism itself isn't wrong
The same can be said about religion. Less than 20% of Americans identify as Atheist or Agnostic, the far right extremists do not have support from 80% of the population.
Does it though? The issues that feed extremism will still be there and find a new outlet.
“extremism” is what neoliberals invented to liken egalitarians with Nazis to make themselves look good.
Tell me you are a Christian who is sad that people keep calling out how Christians have vitriolic hatred for their fellow man with telling me you are a Christian.
Also anyone get a strong feeling that by extremist, OP means Muslims not Christofacist in the US
- I am not a christian lol
- I mean extremism by any person who uses religion as an excuse, not any particular one
If someone actually believes their religion, I think that's true. However, at least from a US perspective, religion seems to be more about group identity than particular beliefs about reality.
Is 80% religious practioners? I mean I probably show up in some statistics as protestant.
I probably show up in some statistics as protestant.
According to the guy I replied to that makes you an extremist.
If you look up "% people in (your area) religious" you'll find roughly 80% identify as one religion or another. If religion is the problem it's 80% of the population.
If extremist = trying to convince others, who are not interested, to join you relligion, then I agree
The problem is that they aren't trying to convince anyone to join their religion, they are trying to remove the choice by changing laws to reflect their religion. They could give two shits about if you believe, as long as you obey.
Then it has nothing to do with religion. Religion is just the excuse to gain power over others.
Well then you should not try to convince people to accept atheism as well🤷🏻
Edit: This is not a serious counter argument in case it isn’t clear, ofc no one is going to every individual person, events and stalls are put up for this purpose, so it is obv. that the only one who will go there are the ones who are interested, there should be no force involved
I have never had an athiest knock on my door and tell me I needed to stop believing in God or I am going to suffer for eternity.
The thing convincing people to be athiests isn't other athiests. Facts and logic are the missionaries for athieism.
Trying to save a person by pulling them out of the cave of ignorance isn't the same thing as trying to convince them that the boogyman wants them to stay in the dark. This is an enormous false equivalency.
Trying to save a person by pulling them out of the cave of ignorance
A religious person has the exact same argument...
Yes, I'm aware. The difference is in that one of our beliefs is founded in the observable world and the other delusion. One holds up to scrutiny and the other does not.
The difference is in that one of our beliefs is founded in the observable world and the other delusion. One holds up to scrutiny and the other does not.
Scientific scrutiny shows there are health benefits to belonging to a religious organization. The only thing that "holds up to scrutiny" is "I'm right and you're wrong" which, again, the religious person also believes.
So instead of having "rules for thee but not for me", maybe everyone should not be trying to force their beliefs on others.
Assuming we've read the same study, that study also showed the exact same benefits you're describing could be achieved with regular yoga or meditation; it seems to me the real benefit is getting out of your own head and devoting yourself to something other than your internal monologue for awhile.
But beyond that, any health benefits are entirely an aside to whether or not the philosophy itself holds up to scrutiny, which no religion I've encountered does.
Finally, I don't believe in rules for thee, not me. They are welcome to present their beliefs in the marketplace of ideas as well. I believe in the power of veracity; I am not challenged by false ideals. I'm not anti-proselytizing, i believe in proselytizing the proselytizers.
I'm sorry, no hate or incivility intended towards you as a person, but this idea is pandering centrist bullshit.
Woah.
Centrist?
EDIT: Tried to make a joke and it seems to have missed the mark. Centrist was the least surprising thing in that comment to be shocked by, I thought, so only being shocked by that I thought would have come off as funny. Poe's Law prevails lol
I mean, yeah. On one hand, you have pretty much all of Conservatism which is empowered largely by religious ideology, and is propelling the West full-speed towards fascism. On the other hand, you have people's freedom to believe in an authoritarian skydaddy who gives them permission to seek dominion over other people without being challenged.
This take sits right in the middle: "Yes, extremism is largely a result of religious indoctrination, but don't hurt people's feelings by challenging their beliefs."
No, sorry. Challenging people's bullshit supernatural beliefs is very method in which we attack extremism. If those beliefs justify cruelty, there is no shame in telling a person that their beliefs are bullshit and their behavior is reprehensible.
There is also a modern definition of fascism as “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity”. Basically you foster belief that because of some mythos you are special (gender, ethnicity, religion), and that allows you to deserve more or discriminate against the others. Religions that demand blind faith are contradict modern science more or less have to foster part of this thinking. Not that you need religion for this but it's close. And not all extremism is fascist ofc.
Yes, because it's basically the "hey guys, not all cops are bad" take but applied to religion.
Like yeah obviously don't be a hateful asshole and persecute religious people, obviously, but pretending there is no value in tearing down religious structures is apathetic centrist enabling bullshit. We should shine a light wherever ignorance dwells, not turn a blind eye to it.