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People at Bonn protesting against Nazi cunts singing Ode to Joy
In Germany millions are protesting against our fascist party AfD, after they unveiled their mass deportation plans.
Look great.
Now I am expeting the same millions of people protesting the things that let afd to grow.
Remember, afd is a consequence not a cause.
Yeah, but destroying the consequence is sometimes needed to eliminate the cause.
Only if you just want to hide the causes in the short term.
But let's assume that you destroy afd, do you really think that all the people that vote for them will change their mind while having the same problems ? You basically only said to them to shut up, do you really think it will work well ? Maybe for the next electoral deadline, but then ?
Whatever are the causes, if you just remove the consequences you don't solve the problem.
Let's assume that afd grow only becasue Russian money and disinformation (which I personlly don't belive like I don't belive that Fratelli d'Italia won because suddently 30% if the italian population is fascist), do you really think that destroying afd will stop the flow of money and disinformation ? They simply will choose (or build) another group to give the money to making better choices.
And you will end up in a situation where the far right group will be able to paint you as the bad guy because you oppose things that basically will be the same things afd is proposing now but with a much nicer dress so that they look acceptable.
I would not be that optimist about the "few years", expecially because I don't see the will to fix the problems which leaded to the afd (and far right in general) grow.
To me this just seems something like "hide the dirt under the rug and hope that it will go away". And it is a stupid path to follow
the french are already doing it quite well, wherever you live would definetely benefit from a protest of this scale.
The French right wing party “Front National” nearly won the presidential election. I think France should do a lot better!!
Let's just appreciate for a moment how great of a choice Ode to Joy is for the European Anthem. It's a very memorable tune which honestly kind of slaps in a way that few anthems do.
Still not as great as La Marseillaise (which is not even a song, but a war chant meant to be hollered), but one of the best anthems out there nonetheless.
The Pete Seeger version that I've often heard sometimes called Ode to Joy/Russian Song has fantastic lyrics. Not speaking German, I'm wondering if these folks are singing the same translation?
I was confused after reading the post and got worried thinking it was the Nazis using Ode to Joy as their own.
It's beautiful. Many of the comments here demonstrate that Lemmy still needs to learn how to not feed the trolls, and I wonder if it's something similar that's needed in real life politics.
I think the difference is posting on lemmy isn't quite the same as having an entire society's fate in your hands.
I can ignore despicable politicians, but that doesn't prevent them getting elected and targetting people like me.
Reminds me of Oswald Mosley (leader of the British fascist party c. 1930s) saying that it didn't matter if they won tomorrow or after a hundred years. Thankfully he was wrong about winning... but truly these fascist fuckers will always pop up somewhere.
We know it's a bad idea, we know it's a dangerous idea, we know it's a deadly idea, and a complete failure in practice. Sign me up! /s
This is great news. However, I can't help but fear that people went back to their private lives afterwards thinking "well done, we defended democracy". Where to go from here? How to keep people engaged in fighting the right? What are realistic next steps for those of us wanting to do more than voting and the occasional demonstration, other than violence? On another note, how might one approach minorities concerned by the indicated policies to join the movement?
If you had to boil down, the german constitution into one short sentence, it would be 'Never again'.
So displaying the german flag at such an occasion, is acually one of the few occasions where it is appropriate to use it in an political context IMHO.
And as a bonus point it gives nazis a taste of there own medicine, by taking symbols & language used by the opposition for your own movement. But in an non-stupid way this time.
Ode to Joy is Beethoven's 9th symphony, and has lyrics. The anthem of the EU is the same but without lyrics.
I wholly recommend Slavoj Zizek's take on the 1st part of the 9th and its appropriation by different dictatorships and ideologies.
There are better songs if you want to bash fashs.
That video seems cut off. Zizek never gets to explain how Beethoven was criticizing anything with the second part of his symphony. How can lyric-less music criticize anything?
I believe at the time the Church had rules about musical timing for its music and things like certain chords and i think 3/4 timing as a whole were considered a sin.
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Well, you should read the Partys Program, look info what their leaders say and realize it was a mistake. If you think they are right in their views, you may just be an asshole, sry about that.
Well, I did read their 2023 Party Program, and I'm afraid it's pretty polished to appear mainstream. I was shocked on how many points appealed to me on first glance, like plebiscites, the prohibition for judges to be affiliated with a political party, universal basic income or transparent financing of political parties.
You have to actually study it, interpret it with their mindset in mind and compare it to the populist playbook used in countries like Italy, Hungary or Poland to detect the underlying fascism. It's a shiny piece of deception.
It might be worth to write a comment on it.
That's the "neat" thing about the party and their voters: They are used to not base things on facts. So they write one thing into their party program and do the other thing or not, just like they want and they promise a third thing in conflict with the first two. E.g. according to their program oft 2023 the reforms they want would help the rich, but all their voters (which are poor on average) believe that their polices would help them.
Btw some crazy points from their program:
And I could go on. I think its pretty obvious what kind of political party they are, even from their program. Sure they have some good points in there too, but so do other parties which are not far-right and science deniers.
Btw some crazy points from their program:
Abolish any inheritance tax
That not seems that crazy. I mean, someone lost his beloved one and in addition to his grieve he has to pay a tax. Right....
You lost your parents and you pay the state for the privilege to keep their inheritance... Sounds good this way ? (and no, to the rich people it change nothing)
“Landwirtschaft: Mehr Wettbewerb. Weniger Subventionen” Which translates to “More competition and less subsidies for agriculture” and still they manage to claim the farmer protests for them.
On this I have a double feeling. On one hand I have seen the disasters of the subsidies to the agricolture like the milk quotas and the farmer paid to not cultivate the field while importing product from outside, on the other hand this make sense only if you eliminate the unfair competition from outside and make everyone play by the same rules.
Kinds born in Germany should not have a chance to German citizenship if the parents do not have it. Regardless if they live their whole live here.
Stupid idea, I agree.
Ignore EU policies when convenient, reimplement border controls (or in other words, leave the EU)
As long as they are prepared to be ignored by the others... and no, border control does not means to leave the EU. It means check what and who enter in your country, because I don't see the problem with border controls that keep the illegal people and goods out of my country.
But I see what they mean and I agree with you.
Only grant asylum to people which can fill job roles where there is a provable gap in demand and local workforce.
Mmm... asylum should be granted only to people in danger for some serious reason, in other words it should be an exceptional case, not the norm. I agree it is really stupid to tie it to fact that who ask for it should be able can cover for a local workforce gap.
So yes, they have some very stupid ideas, but other does not seems too bad and I am sure that if some other parties would propose them in a better language they would be approved by a large part of the population.
But as long as the people (and who is in charge) don't understand that afd and all the parties like it are a consequence and not a cause the problem will be never solved.
Just so you know, inheritance tax in Germany inly kicks in, if the inheritance is over 500.000 Euros and then it is 20% I believe. So your argument actually falls a tad short here.
Also the current competition in agriculture only promote the commulation of farms into companies. The farmers who actually need support don't get it, which further accelerates the industrialisation of farming. Which is what the protest is about, not that many farmers get that they are being exploited by their own lobbyists and the AfD.
Lastly, while the AfD has for some time been saying they want the EU to stay and Germany being part of it, they are now discussing a German Exit. As if that did any good for the UK. It would likely be even worse for Germany. My guess is, that they felt offended by Meloni for saying that they would not work with the AfD on anything.
Just so you know, inheritance tax in Germany inly kicks in, if the inheritance is over 500.000 Euros and then it is 20% I believe. So your argument actually falls a tad short here.
I don't understand your point. I get that the limit is high but it does not make any difference: you lost your parent and you need to pay for the privilege to keep their inheritance. How many money you could or want to tax is irrelevant in my opinion. It is a tax that should be deleted for everyone.
Also the current competition in agriculture only promote the commulation of farms into companies.
Which can be not that bad to me
The farmers who actually need support don’t get it, which further accelerates the industrialisation of farming.
Maybe. But what the subsidies have done until now are only damages: they have not helped the farmers and have not stopped the industrialisation.
I don't really know what the solution could be but to me the subsidies are not the solution.
Lastly, while the AfD has for some time been saying they want the EU to stay and Germany being part of it, they are now discussing a German Exit. As if that did any good for the UK. It would likely be even worse for Germany
True, but this is a consequence, not the cause.
For example, why do you think that Meloni won last time ? Not because suddently 30% of the Italian population became fascist but because she aknowledged the problems people have and that the left (and the EU) choose to ignore. Remove the causes (read: do what is good for your people) and you remove the ones who want to destroy EU because people would not have a reason do destroy it.
Just so you know, spez is the colossal dickhead CEO of Reddit, who fucked everything up and caused the Reddit exodus. This is a troll account.
Okay but like when are you going to act on it instead of this meaningless shit?
Fascism needs to driven out through violence and force not holding hands and singing kumbaya.
This is the action. It pushes back against fascist talking points in the public discourse and makes it harder for fascist to make themselves seem publicly accepted.
They’re already in your politics, taking votes and planning “deportations”. This is feel-good lib theatre.
And you want to give the state the power to get rid of any group it deems undesirable? Or do you want to break the law to get rid of them yourself? This protest is the sign that the majority will not go along with fascist talking points, it makes clear that those talking points have no space in public discourse. This is how democracy is supposed to work.
And you want to give the state the power to get rid of any group it deems undesirable?
The state already has the power to get rid of any group that seeks to destabilize our democratic system. This is a very central part of our constitution (see article 9, 18, 20 or 21). It's basically a way to deal with the paradox of tolerance, if you're not familiar with that concept here's the wikipedia definition:
The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them.
Ultimately, it is within the law to personally get rid of a group that wants to destroy our free and democratic system:
Article 20 [...] (4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order if no other remedy is available.
This is usually interpreted as including physical violence.
Or do you want to break the law to get rid of them yourself?
That one.
If they get power, they'll make it legal to do it to you. There won't be any protests like this going on.
I understand your longing for immediate action and I share the emotional need to cut off the snake's head sooner than later. Those who break the social contract of tolerance for each other should not be protected by it. Unfortunately it is a matter of fact that violence will always spiral out of control. First you just want to get rid of the fascists. Assume you succeed and don't get reprimanded by law. Then you know how to get rid of someone and can act on it. What stops you to get to your rivals that want to strip you from your new found power? Chances are real you drift off into dictator mannerisms yourself.
The only way to not become what you try to eliminate is not to use excessive violence to begin with. Use the law. Use intimidating mass demonstrations. Use social pressure by making their views unspeakable again. Be better, stand for your values, organize with like minded folk and don't play into the stereotype of left groups always splittering into incapable small groups that cannot cooperate and coordinate
No need to break the law, it's in the German constitution:
Article 20 [...] (4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order if no other remedy is available.
Ah, I see. On the one hand here's a green light and all you need to do is point it out to people. On the other there's a green light and you're saying "fuck the system, let's go 200m down the road where the light is red and cross there".
Mobilization is the first step. You will not get people to start beating up fascists, who for the past 20 years haven't been to a single demonstration. Also having millions on the street for a cause puts pressure behind politics to take the more activist protests serious and respond to their demands. Also with the right wing media and propaganda machine it is crucial to have so many people out, that are considered otherwise apolitical or non radical, because the narrative of the right was that they represent the silent majority and that everyone against them is a leftist radical. Now they are struggling with absurd photoshops that the masses were fake.
Punching fascists is a moral obligation, but widespread protests against them usually also forces them back into their basement.
Mass protests are nice, because these fuckers get too comfortable otherwise. They often think because they are racist fucks, everyone else is too.
It's important because it takes away the right's talking point about speaking for the silent majority. This is the majority, and it's not silent anymore. You can tell that the AfD is already in crisis mode over this. Hopefully we can keep it up until the general election.
It’s important because it takes away the right’s talking point about speaking for the silent majority.
Eh, this is logically false. Unless the amount of people is 50% of voters + 1 on that demonstration.
How many fascists have you attacked? Or are you just a basement-dwelling keyboard warrior that hasn't done even the slightest gesture, not even joined a protest like this, against nazis? STFU.
Hah, funny.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-12/who-was-behind-bendigos-anti-mosque-protests/6848468
When they came to our town, we fought back. You should try it next time, it’s pretty cathartic.
While I share your sentiment regarding dealing with fascists with violence, there were no fascists to fight at these protests. The protests are in response to fascists growing political power and backroom planning that became public and not against fascists showing up in person. When that happens people do fight them (or try to, the cops protect them).
When they came to our town, we fought back. You should try it next time, it’s pretty cathartic.
Nothing about it in the article you linked. Maybe you miss clicked or something, try using your right hand.
Oh sorry, I originally had another link but changed it to a more reputable source without checking.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/fights-break-out-at-bendigo-mosque-protest/62dqgo9v3
And here's the link I wanted to avoid using but it does offer the better insight despite being a shit company
About 300 people opposed to the mosque broke through police barricades and started punching anti-racism protesters on the steps of the Bendigo Town Hall on Saturday afternoon.
Seems like the Nazis were the one doing the punching. But than again we also have militant antifa in Germany (love those guys) - that's just not a very effective way of fighting an ideology. People don't change their believe after getting punched in the face - go figure.
I agree that ultimately, force is needed to get rid of fascism. But that doesn't have to be physical violence, a somewhat functioning democratic system usually also has legislative force that can be used first. The German constitution was written up immediately after the horrors of the nazi regime and WWII. And it offers a lot of tools to fight fascism without physical violence. Political parties can be made illegal for example and individuals can lose their constitutional rights if they use them to destabilize the state. Of course, this won't get rid of fascists but it may weaken them enough to not be a threat anymore.
People are protesting, among other things, for these tools to be used right now, before it's too late and before physical violence is the only way out.
It's funny how Germany should have those protections and yet the AfD is getting bigger and more popular.
Because the protections that are in place for a very good reason, are not being implemented by those in power. I don't know why.
I think that’s pretty obvious. Using these powers will literally break up the country since AfD owns Eastern Germany. They should have acted much earlier.
One needs to distinguish between three types of people here: AfD functionaries who draw up deportation plans, definitely fascist, core voters, generally inherited from the NPD, who vote for the AfD because of those deportation plans, definitely fascist, and then protest voters who vote for the AfD despite those plans. Also despite the rest of their programme.
Long story short in Germany the left parties have been captured by (at best) labour aristocracy and neoliberals at worst, their policies led to a severe lack of social housing, an explosion of precarious employment, and it's not like the labour aristocracy is above agitating against "freeloaders not pulling their weight". We have a gigantic precariat, many more are afraid of landing there, and a significant portion of that precariat is pissed enough at the establishment to vote AfD because it's the only party that hasn't betrayed them so far, or they want to show a middle finger to the other parties, or both, take your pick.
What's crucial now is that this protest moment is used to actually address those very legitimate grievances of the precariat. To invest in all that good stuff -- housing (now with great insulation), public transport so people don't need to buy expensive electric cars, district heating so people don't need to buy expensive heat pumps. No land in large cities to build housing on? Expropriate it, doesn't even need a change to the constitution. Pay for it all with wealth taxes which somehow have been completely cancelled when was it 90s? Suddenly all that anger that the AfD tries to redirect at immigrants will be gone, protest voters can stop voting for Nazis and clean their consciousness, and we'll all be happy (for the moment).
Physical violence is a necessity.
As you noted states can have tools against fascism and other takeovers themselves. Physical violence can be one of those tools first. Historically seen its the most successful tool. Nothing has made more fascists disappear than deadly force.
Simply taking away their platform and organisations is not enough. This isn't exclusive to fascism, but political movements in general. They will still remain a danger that way. They would still be a threat to real democracies, if we had any, by still being able to abuse and manipulate the system, swindling their way into power or undermining established constitutions, rights and laws. And in undemocratic systems they still can take over simply by corruption, propaganda or working their way up by more honest means.
It has been a while, but look at how in the 89-91 plenty of governments have been overthrown despite banned oppotisions.
I love the fascist-punching enthusiasm, but a good movement will need diversity of action to get things done. Support the antifascist who beats nazis in brawls, and the antifascist who plans rallies that sing songs and march. Both are valid, and both are important.
They are already protesting for crying out loud. 100,000 protesters isn't insignificant.
Yeah that’s one of those platitudes that sounds nice but is not actually backed up by any science.
Kind of obvious how it works isn't it? You become hateful as you fight evil, and you become more and more accepting of cruelty as long as it's to the enemy. Happens in wars all the time.
Like I said it sounds plausible and logical, but that doesn’t actually translate to being true.
Actually, it does. Since the AFD had more voters in the eastern states of Germany (that was DDR in the past) bigotry against people from eastern Germany have increased again. It was never completely gone, but now you find people openly speculating people from eastern Germany are less intelligent, "inbreds", etc. And that comes a lot from supposedly anti-fascist leftists.
A lot of people just want violence or don't like people in general or have something else wrong with them and believe slapping an "anti-fascist" label on their violence somehow makes it good violence. Other ways do work and they are a better choice. Insulting, being cruel and being violent against people should never be your go-to idea and you certainly shouldn't be trying to shame people into being violent.
Many AFD voters can be turned in better ways, instead of making them fear violence and insults.
You can't really be this silly. You can't ethically study this shit, it would need two groups, a control group that doesn't get desensitized by the horrible things the other group does to people. But you can personally observe the changes in people of places of authority and stress over time. There's maybe a few studies in the past, like the Stanford one, Milgram I think, that ethicists discourage.
There is something to be said for shouting them down with song.
No sure if you proof the right point here...
I don't remember singing to be the key of freeing France from Nazi-Germany
No ofcourse not. But Germany isn't a nazi regime today like it was back then. It's "just" one party that has grown the past years. Those protests show that the silent majority won't let them assume power and that we have learned from history.
Germany has a very strong democratic system and there are a lot of democratic ways of getting rid of such a party in a democratic way. For example it is likely that their funding is beeing stopped, so they have to finance themselves. Additionally it's highly likely that part of their party is being forbidden. And Germany even talks about forbidding the whole party. That's something the court has to decide.
If we omit all the steps which aren't key, we likely fail at key steps. Some steps are important support.
Giving the people a way to show themselves what their spirit is is important to encourage further steps.
In that sense, I do think keeping up morale was important in freeing France.
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