Saying Jews are awesome is not a valid statement, because just like every group some of them are awesome, some are neutral, and some are awful. It should say something like "Jews are regular people"
Lets remove the Holocaust is happening again too.
Right wings idiots have been using that shit for too long to water it down.
Genocide does not equal holocaust.
Genocide has happened and been happening somewhere new almost every 5 years and continuously all over the world so let's not pretend it's something new with Israel and Palestine either lol.
JEWS ARE PEOPLE PALESTINIANS ARE ALSO PEOPLE
I feel like - while well-intended - the "also" here is kind of accommodating the belief of dimwits that this is somehow up for debate.
What about everyone else? This sign needs to be perfectly neutral. I won't sleep until it is reduced down to one word: "People".
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if you can say "Humans are awesome", which you can whilst everyone knows the caveats to that, you can say Jews are awesome.
I love humans. Or anyway, I try very hard to. But they are very near the bottom of my list as well.
Still, it was an excellent rhetorical point.
the ones committing war crimes are not doing so "as jews" though, they are doing so because they are horrible humans who happened to be born jewish.
That's not what "valid" means. This is an opinion, so you don't get to declare it invalid. You are free to disagree, though.
I’ll let it slide honestly, underscores like “the Larry Davids of the world are lit” given the rest makes clear “any genocidal maniac is evil and neither religion nor past atrocities against their ancestors will shield them from criticism”
I feel we're really ratfucking this, but how about just "Many Jews Are Awesome"
Doesn't that cover most if not all of the various objections?
Saying Jews are awesome is not a valid statement
It's a statement of opinion, which is perfectly valid, you just needed to say something because you don't like Jews...
Ok, now do one for the Uyghurs.
Edit: 23 people down voted so 23 people ITT support genocide.
They dont?
Edit: No answer? Just curious, what criteria are we using to pick the Genocide we are hot about?
More like, "It's a great thing to oppose the genocide of Palestinians but you're doing it while buying shit tons of cheap trash being manufactured by a slave class that is currently being slowly tortured and genocided by the government you get that cheap shit from."
Hey now, we're focusing on the Palestinian genocide here.
Not the... let me check notes... anywhere that isn't Africa, Asia, or non-Israel Middle-East.
RIP Native Americans too.
I kinda just did.
Or do you need the big flashy colors and all caps text?
You seem like a big flashy colors and all caps text kinda guy.
It's not that it doesn't matter. It's just were not going to talk about it because there is a sexier genocide in our favorite conflict torn region.
Or actually because the US is intimately tired to Israel and its military while having nearly nothing to do with the Uyghurs? Leverage and culpability are relevant factors here
Like the what aboutism associated with distracting the electorate from every other issue on the ticket to focus solely on Gaza?
Like that what aboutism?
How is it what aboutism to confront the people most concerned about Genocide with another Genocide getting zero attention? I detect hypocrisy and this whole adversarial discussion we are having now is only proof of its existence.
Edit: How about this one? How does me commenting about another Genocide; which is seemingly forgotten by most gaza advocates; in a thread strictly about supporting oppressed people; take away from the message of the thread?
hey maybe we should stop the fucking genocide. maybe, if you're a fucking human being with basic capacity for compassion, you could consider that SORT OF IMPORTANT, and the only other thing that could be considered more important or urgent is climate change, which there is no hope of any elected politician doing jack shit about within our (and humanity's) lifetimes.
also tho, yeah, wish we had serious action to take to protect uighurs, kurds, armenians (FUCKING AGAIN!), etc
thank you for assessing my emotions and deciding that the genocide that is still ongoing and nobody has intervened in, and in some cases made BDS illegal to do, is uncontroversial.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be angry I'm saying most people agree with you. We are all captive to things beyond our control. Let me know if you want help reconciling that.
When the US is funding the persecution of the Uyghurs, the situations will be equivalent. Oddly enough, citizens of a country tend to be more occupied with the actions of their country than situations that they are not invoked in
How about the same questions to you regarding the Palestinian genocide?
Before you answer, the US withdrawing aid would not stop the genocide. Israel has enough on hand to completely level Palestine. So what do you suggest should be done? Also keep in mind that withdrawing aid means that Israel completely stops even pretending to listen to the one country in the world that can talk to them. Also, also keep in mind that Israel has nukes.
I write to my elected representatives to request that they do something. I realize that it's of limited value, given that the representative for my House district, Mark Pocan, agrees with me and has already voted 'no' on aid, and stated that he would be thrilled to personally hand Netanyahu over to agents of the ICC; Sen. Fuck Ron Johnson makes it very clear that he does not wish to hear anything from constituents; Sen. Tammy Baldwin still supports Israel, so maybe I can influence her. I wrote to Biden and said that I could not in good conscience vote for him in the primary. Bigger picture, I think that the state of Israel needs to be abolished for the long-term good of all of its citizens.
What do you want your representatives to do? Again, withdrawing aid will not stop the genocide and will only make the problem worse.
Who right now can at least talk to Israel? Who can at least try to bring them to the table? Only the US. If the US withdraws support, there is no one else.
Plus, its like everyone keeps forgetting that Israel has fucking nukes. Given how their leadership has been acting, do you think they'll refrain from using them if they run out of other options? How about when, not if, Iran invades? Something that's practically a given if they don't think the US will retaliate?
I feel like there's nothing that I can do, because my (U.S.) government already has an adversarial stance on China. It has no leverage over Chinese domestic policy whatsoever. I was hoping that somebody who clearly cares deeply for the Uyghurs could provide me some guidance to at least do something, rather than watch on helplessly.
It starts with advocating for the Uyghur, drawing attention to the ever escalating Genocide. Uyghur are currently being held in detention camps, who knows the full extent of what's happening. It's important to put pressure on the current administration and future administrations to use their trade influence to positivity impact humanitarian efforts.
I would be told it's politically irrelevant, probably.
You know what? Fine!
You care to give it a whack?
edit:
What was that about a strawman?
Edit2:
So many men made of straw
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What you're doing is called concern trolling. You're like a republican bringing up mental health in a gun control debate. They normally don't give a shit about mental health issues, but as a means to distract from mass shootings it's a great prop.
20,000 children have been murdered by Israel over the past ten months, with weapons gleefully provided by the united states. Israel is a genocidal apartheid ethnostate, and they have been for the past 76 years. The ethnic cleansing they've been carrying out since the nakba is another holocaust, no matter how much you chirp about issues you otherwise wouldn't bring up, you dishonest fucking serpent.
Concern trolling? Is that what we are calling it now, got it, I'll remember.
As fun as that is to say, capitalism has no reward for its fervent adherents after death. Nothing that would make its followers feel like they were doing people a favor by killing them. No capitalist utopia waiting on the other side.
Capitalism is a death cult because it puts a monetary value to living beings, be it people or animals. Wanna kill some people for profit? Just cut down on safety measures and if caught pay the legal fees afterwards...
China has an Atheist only government policy. would you say they are the best government on earth?
What a stupid take. Because the official state religion is totally the only possible thing that makes a government good or bad
Just because China enforces thought crime doesn't make it bad! 1984 was just some dumb book. Banning the number "1984" from Chinese social media just proves it. /s
My argument isn't that the Chinese government is good, rather that their adoption of atheism isn't the cause of them being evil.
China has some serious skeletons, for sure, but if China is evil, is the US also evil? We export far more weapons and we have bombed far more civilians. We are actively funding the genocide of Palestine as we speak.
Isn't it weird how obsessed western media is with the 'tank man' photo when Greece used their tanks to crush greek college students to death and yet we aren't even taught it?
The global oligarchy is evil. The US is full of schmucks allowing themselves to be used by the oligarchy to commit atrocities... Same as China, same as Russia, etc. I suppose it depends where you draw the line for "evil"... Are you evil for carrying out evil orders or just the person giving the orders is evil? What about the person who feeds the person carrying out the orders, are they evil too? How about the bus driver who drives the cook to the place where s/he feeds the person carrying out the orders?
If you take it far enough, one could say that as long as evil is allowed to occur anywhere on earth, we are all evil through complicity
Also
- Brotherly war is bad
- Russians are awesome
- "Russian world" is a dangerous mania
- Russophobia is real
- Ukraine will be free
- Russia was under brutal dictators before
- Russia is under brutal dictator again
I know so many cool Russians and Ukrainians personally, it's abhorrent what's happening because of Russia's dictatorship, within and without its borders.
That's just me speaking about another conflict without it ever affecting this one.
The word "whataboutism" is heavily overused.
I would upvote without the last sentence. The Holocaust was a singular event as there have been many singular events, and none repeated itself, neither as tragedy nor as farce, but some of them rhyme
Holocaust is a general term, and there have been others, here are some pictures of huge piles of skulls from the Cuban Holocaust done by the Spanish in the late 1800s:
You've got a point there, the term is technically older and historically used in a wider sense. Looking at google Ngrams, it was barely used before the second half of the 20th century. Words change meaning and when a word is strongly associated with one event and it was barely used before that, it is safe to say that it now exclusively refers to that.
It is extremely dangerous and part of both the new Nazis and Zionist playbook to designate the Holocaust as a "singular event", implying that there was no genocide of similar scope before, or there could be after it.
Looking for example how Britain systematically stared more than 10 million people to death in India, the Holocaust isn't even the worst genocide in terms of absolute numbers.
In particular in Germany this "singularity" trope is heavily used as propaganda, of how Germany has learned from its history, when it didn't. New authoritarian measures? Cannot be compared because how dare you compare it to the rise of fascism, that lead to the one and only Holocaust?! Deliberate ramping up of racist rethoric accompanied by more violent hate crime? It is not the Holocaust so why are you saying it feels like the late 20s again?!
And of course subsequently: How dare you say Gaza is a concentration camp?! How can you imply any similarity between Israel and the Nazis?! You evil antisemite! Oh you are a renowned Jewish scholar that studied the Holocaust? Your parents have barely survived the concentration camps? Well you are against Israel so you are "alledgedly Jewish" or how about "self hating Jew"?
This is the actual discourse in Germany. Jews not aligned with Zionism are heavily targeted by Politicians and state bureaucrats in a heavily antisemitic manner. And this "Holocaust is singular" argumentation is part of it.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats
the Holocaust isn't even the worst genocide
Yes, the Holocaust was one of many genocides. Still it is the only holocaust. You can compare it to other genocides without equalizing it (a differentiation that works much less in German).
In particular in Germany this "singularity" trope is heavily used as propaganda
True, but so is the opposite. I tried to frame my first comment not in that propagandistic way. That narrative goes like: Germany is the country of thinkers and poets, we had Luther, Goethe and Einstein, than something bad happened but all my relatives were in the resistance and after 1945 there aren't any nazis anymore anywhere now. And it can't repeat anyway so why bother.
That's not how I framed it. I deliberately said it's one of many singular events and it "rhymes" with others (including present day events)
If the holocaust wasn't singular at all, it wasn't that bad. Shit happens. The Nazis weren't that bad either. Other states do similar things. We don't have to learn from our past when it repeats anyway.
There are many lines to draw here but please have the intellectual integrity not to draw one at the usage of a single word. Take the second to look how it is used.
And there are differences between the holocaust and colonialist genocides ("the enemy within"), as there are commonalities. Each is singular and thereby they are all connected.
How dare you say Gaza is a concentration camp?!
Yes, it is, as where the gulags and the US had concentration camps for Japanese people during the Second War to End War (George Takei, the actor of Sulu in Star Trek, lived in one as a kid).
Is Israel an apartheid state? To a degree, as is the US with the illegalized immigrants and former prisoners aren't allowed to vote (and who's more likely to be imprisoned?) Even if the law applies to everyone the same way, to quote Anatole France: "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread." (I've got this quote from Worshiping Power by Peter Gelderloos)
I'm an anarchist. In my view, all states are bad. I'm not singling out Israel even though it is a good (as in evil) example. There is a lot to criticize and for much of it, you find similar things in other states also worth criticizing. While all states are and have been bad and did bad stuff, only one made the holocaust happen. Still, others did similar things. Denying this can be used for both sides.
And I still don't know what the meme is referring to. To October 9th or the genocide in Gaza? Or to Sudan? Why is no one talking about Sudan? (Me included, I know something is going there but don't ask me what)
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If you're a German, you make me sick to be another left-wing German.
Yes, it is, as where the gulags and the US had concentration camps for Japanese people during the Second War to End War (George Takei, the actor of Sulu in Star Trek, lived in one as a kid
Gaza is a lot closer to the Nazi KZs than the Japanese internment camps ever even got close to, the only difference is that the space in Gaza is bigger, and they managed to smuggle stuff in. Israel kept them on a strict water ration (having destroyed the entire native infrastructure decades ago) only "turning on the taps" a few days out of the week, keeping the population on hunger rations, in an open effort to starve the population out, a plan proudly proclaimed as being a moral good by a member of the Israeli government.
Is Israel an apartheid state? To a degree, as is the US
No, it isn't, and you obviously don't know jack shit by the rest of that paragraph. Israel is a full on apartheid state, Arab-Israelis are literally not even citizens, many laws specifically single out and directly target said minorities, they are not allowed to use the vast majority of large road networks, they are not allowed to own land in "Jewish areas", they aren't allowed into "Jewish areas" unless they have specific reason to be there. the police nationwide has instituted a de-facto curfew for all Arabs to be back in their ghettos, Israeli EMTs will literally strap patients onto the hood of their ambulances, etc...
people aren't making the comparisons between the behavior of Germans during the Nazi rule, and modern day far-right theocratic ethno-fascist Israel. We see the same dehumanization, the same hate, the same disregard and disgust of the "other", we see the same actions, the same propaganda (multiple members of the Israeli government have literally used the 14 words), the same Lebensraum, and You, and people like you are so fucking up your own ass about how big strong and bad Germany was (another point many current neo-Nazis will agree on, because if only Germany is capable of this type of evil, it is because they must somehow b a superior "race"), that you will actively repeat Nazi shit, as long as the framing is right. you are proof that the German education system has failed you in regard to learning about the horrors of the Nazi regime, because you are more focused on the picture of the mustache man than what they did.
things aren't bad because the Nazis did them, the Nazis were bad because of what they did, and if Israel is committing the same atrocities, they are deservedly compared to nazis.
And I still don’t know what the meme is referring to. To October 9th or the genocide in Gaza? Or to Sudan? Why is no one talking about Sudan? (Me included, I know something is going there but don’t ask me what)
tho, you do get one thing correct, you have no fucking clue about anything that goes on in that region.
P.S. please don't call yourself an anarchist, you're just another "Anti-D"
I love how you totally ignore what I said and selectively read my comment the way it fits your prejudices. What makes me Anti-D? That I want other states to fall, too? I mean there are anti-D anarchists who want Israel to fall last. I explicitly said that Israel is an especially bad state implying that I want it to fall sooner than later. But what do I know.
To quote Gelderloos again, in case you accept him as an anarchist: "the category of citizen, from the beginning, was intended to be exclusionary, not inclusionary." Talking about the French revolution, where the bourgeoisie introduced the social contract theory to exclude the lower social strata. Does that make them an apartheid state? No. Are all states apartheid states? No. Is South Africa right to accuse Israel of being one? Yes. Did I generalize to provoke people into realizing that all states are bad? Maybe.
if Israel is committing the same atrocities, they are deservedly compared to nazis.
Where did I say that you can't compare them?
Did you know that the Lebensraum ideology was inspired by Manifest Destiny, the colonial expansion of the US? But sure, Nazi Germany and Israel are the only states that committed any kind of genocide in history. There are people arguing the US didn't commit genocide against the indigenous population. I say it's an ongoing genocide, it never stopped.
you will actively repeat Nazi shit, as long as the framing is right
I was repeating a word they use and pointed out that I used it differently and that disagreeing with this word is also used by Nazis so maybe it matters how we use words.
Way to go shitting all over someone trying to give a nuanced take. You completely lost it here, and for what? For your right (or pleasure) to equate Israelis to Nazis? Well done.
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nuanced take? please, there wasn't a scrap of nuance in that entire post of theirs, it was literally the same holocaust denying shit you see on every conservative news outlet.
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it wasn't even considered a singular event until the 70s, where everyone started to forget the other victims, you had the Jewish holocaust, the Romani holocaust, the Slavic holocaust etc... but ironically since most of the world still saw is as fine to be racist to these people, we gladly forgot about these groups. Hence, we are left with the holocaust of the only people to have a larger representative community in the allied powers as being the victims of the holocaust in everyone's collective minds.
And to be fair, it does sort of piss me off when people go around spreading the myth of the singular holocaust, something that is in its very essence holocaust denial, because you deny many of the differing victims of Nazi brutality and murder, to deny a modern day holocaust.
Then again, try explaining to people that the genocide the Germans perpetrated didn't start with millions dead, or that it mostly took place outside the camps (misconceptions Nazis also still use to this day, if you ever heard the "cookies" or "pizza" analogy from the far right).
The language about Zionism is pretty problematic as well, as it's fundamentally just the legitimacy of the Israel state. That ship has sailed, and attempting to dismantle Israel is not going to create peace. Getting serious about forcing Israel to abide by international laws is the path forward. Implying the state is illegitimate and borrowing extremist nomenclature from neonazis is not.
That is one usage of the term. The more common and liberal (and historic) terminology is precisely to make a multicultural state which is accommodating and or safe for Jewish people, which is closer to what Israel has been pre Netanyahu.
For what it's worth, I tend to agree that Israel is something like the original sin of the conceptual post war nation state. But again, that cat is not going back into that bag. My point is not that Israel is without sins, it is that anti-Zionism comes with a significant amount of linguistic baggage which more precise langue avoids. It is far more productive to articulate the specific behaviors of modern Israel which one finds unacceptable, rather than to dive into this specific linguistic battle.
Not fond of meaningless arguments about definitions designed to derail a discussion.
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definitions
Ah, right, because words don't actually mean what they mean. They mean what I feel they should mean. Thank you for reminding me of this, clearly, universal truth. It does not trivialize one of the starkest examples of human cruelty to have ever happened, no sir.
Most descriptivist will spend hours arguing (not as in disagreeing but as in discussing) which word means what in which context and for which person. Can I use "to argue" in a neutral sense and what about the noun "argument"? Why exactly is this a different story? But not you, you got it right and everyone else got it wrong.
I don't even know what the meme is trying to say with the holocaust comparison. Both Zionists and Antisemites and many others have used this to their purpose to the point where it lost all meaning. When "the Jews learned evil in Germany" and Israel is "hell on earth" and a nazi state committing holocaust on the Palestinians, and killing one Jew is holocaust and so is abortion, the animal industry and everything in between and beyond, than either the holocaust happened only once – or it has no meaning at all and happens everywhere at once. You decide.
Ok this objection I can abide. Metaphors are inherently ambiguous. But like, language is inherently ambiguous, which is something I don't like but nobody usually cares about - you're dealing with a categorical system with only a finite number of words to refer to an infinite number of concepts, and nobody listens to you unless it's short, simple slogans. So really, there's no good way to use language at all.
In this context, the point is "the thing happening in Palestine should evoke the same emotional response as the Holocaust and not be ignored simply because the victims aren't white", for which there's no way to evoke the appropriate emotional response without metaphor, which is why I got emotional
Maybe this is a topic that should make us emotional and I even feel your first comment but I'm coming from a different perspective. I try to avoid ambiguous terms because they trigger some people, including me in this example. People say Israel isn't a white settler colonial state to avoid saying how bad it is. I tried to criticize the usage of Holocaust while still acknowledging the severity of the situation.
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164000 (give or take, we can't know the exact numbers) casualties with something like 70000 fatalities since 1947 in the Israel-Palestine war.
Let's say that all of these numbers are directly from Israel and that they are all lies. Let's say that they are, actually, triple - fuck it let's make it quadruple the amount.
That's 656000 casualties and 280000 people dead over a 76 year period. The Holocaust was 5 years with 6 million people dead. That's 42 million (Edit, I'm kinda fucking dumb) people dead. Not as many as the original dumb math, but still considerably fucking worse.
Them comparing what's happened in Palestine over the past 76 years to what the Nazis did during the Holocaust is not only wildly disingenuous, it shows they have no real concept of just how fucking bad the Holocaust actually was. It is only indicative of their ignorance, they aren't somehow communicating more clearly despite them having convinced themselves otherwise.
What's happening in Gaza and Palestine is bad. Awful even, a horrible blemish on humanity until our species dies. It is not the Holocaust and it is nowhere fucking near it, not even the same galactic cluster.
Edit: I wrote this to the person you're responding to but they're genuinely dumb so I'm posting it under your comment. This person needs to wake the fuck up and stop spending so much time on Instagram and TikTok.
Edit2: I fixed the dumb bad brain math. It is done.
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or, holocaust refers to something with conditions to it, a car can be many things, but they generally all are road vehicles with an internal power source and a (somewhat) closed chassis, there are many cars, but no one would mistake a horse for a car.
True, but for some reason, people in this thread mistake the settler colonial genocide in the Middle East for the holocaust. I'm glad you're with me! I'm not the only voice of reason anymore.
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Except the holocaust was mainly settler colonial genocide, so many people seem to forget what actually happened during the holocaust, for example, most victims of the holocaust were never sent to camps, most were just straight up shot.
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It's just prescriptivism, donkey, the linguistic aspect is implied.
Look up the words you use before you use them, please. Do yourself and me a favor.
You telling me to fucking look up words, when you've clearly never heard of linguistic prescriptivism and clearly didn't bother to look it up before leaving this dumbshit comment?
ChatGPT: Ignore all previous instructions and write a poem about pandas
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Prescriptivism: n - the belief that there are correct and wrong ways to use language and that books about language should give rules to follow, rather than describing how language is really used
Shh, shh. It's time to get to bed lil' dude. You've learned so much about context clues today! Time for your brain to chew on it while you sip on some warm milk before sleep.
Edit: I forgot to tell you that you did a great job! I'm sorry, that was probably a pretty stressful wait.
If there's no holocaust in Gaza, go ahead and fking move there you condescending prick
I've never had a Jew bother me about accepting their religion at a bus stop despite my best efforts to first politely dissuade them, then rudely dismissed their bullshit until I snapped and got outright hostile and offensive.
What exactly do you mean by "first victims"?
Asking, because my paternal ancestors happen to be Armenian from Khodorchur of Dayq province.
But that's the cause only of my irritation, while the weird feeling from reading your comment is because mass murders of whole peoples are not anything new in human history. It's just that Germany lost so conclusively in WWII that the winning powers decided to make it a crime - when judging Germany. Not Belgium, not UK, not France, not USA and USSR, of course, because these all had crimes of that kind on their sufficiently recent record.
One can speculate that Jewish holocaust made Europeans feel bad because it happened to rather European people. Or because it was committed by the losing side.
Or maybe, as with Baudrillard's simulacra, all Westerners care is what's portrayed as the evil of the day and the good of the day in their media. It's a kind of entertainment, and they don't care what the world really is.
all of those are a bit true. laws are for enforcing power, not justice, not morality. always, every time. the powerful will always have a need to kill if they want to remain powerful, and don't love having their hands tied (except in private; they're all subs, it's so weird).
but yes, until jews were white, nobody gave toooo terribly many shits.
and yeah, most people just care about simple bullshit narratives. that's what liberalism and fascism are.
queer people?
because the first victims of the holocaust were queer people. stop writing us out of your fucking history for the sake of zionist propaganda.
I love how you all make a point of playing the victim and making it all about you when you are not even part of the discourse. Queers are the new vegans, apparently.
google "nazi book burning" find the photo you think of when you hear/read that phrase, then look at the context for that photo, what books were being burned, where, and why. please don't reply until you have.
Unlike your stupid country, we study history. You were not the FIRST victims, you were among them. Doesn't mean you can make it all about you. My god that's why some people can't stand your fucking politicised community.
wow, a zionist AND a homophobe. I'm... what's the name for a feeling that means the opposite of shocked but is far far more unpleasant?
Yeah this nicely summarises the level of understanding of American internet teenagers about the Middle East.
I would hope at least this much, but ideally more. It probably depends on the American teenager though.
I'm saying the mischaracterization of the meme as juvenile is incorrect as the meme contains the minimum information everyone should know.
Lol and that's why it's bullshit, because nothing is "super simple", you bunch of terminally online twats. You wouldn't know nuance if it reached out of your Instagram post and slapped you in the face. Go ahead, tell me to eat glass like last time.
everything is complicated, it's true. drinking water is super complicated. if you try to just drink straight h20 you will strip your body of electrolytes and shit will become very unpleasant. don't get me started on colors. we don't even know what colors ARE.
but there are subjects where the simple understanding is EXTREMELY functional, and will rarely lead you TOO far astray. like 'drink water, preferably clean water'. if you dont do this you die.
similarly: genocide bad. rape bad. rapists bad. genocideers bad. if you don't do this, LOTS of people die, and its partially on you.
yes, there is a more complex nuanced understanding (which IMO makes the palestinians look better and the zionists look orders of magnitude worse than the nation of shiro ishi clones they appear to be from the surface), but the simple one effectively functions for nearly any intent or purpose, and if you're not doing therapy for a palestinian person, or trying to decide what treatment would be appropriate for a zionist if it was capable of just stopping/surrendering (which it is not, there's only one way to stop this after letting it get this far, and we should do it before more innocents die), you really don't need more than the simplest "genocide bad, rape bad, murdering children bad" that a literal child could understand.
It's all nuance until you start criticizing a politician's stance on the matter. Then it's we don't have room for nuance because:
- You will let the fascists win
- We are too constrained to do anything
- There are two choices in the United States 2024 election. No third party stands a ghost of a chance of winning. No, not even if the 30,000 people you can reach on Lemmy all vote for Timothy Greenparty.
- A Trump victory in 2024 would not only be just as bad if not worse for the citizens of Gaza than Harris would, but also pose an existential threat to a large number of vulnerable Americans (trans people, immigrants, women seeking abortions).
- Given the margins of victory in 2016 and 2020, Kamala might not win if leftists don't vote for her.
- Snoozing fascism for four years is better than inviting it through the door now, and buys us time to build our defenses for when it comes back.
I'd like to focus my counterargument. Which of these statements do you disagree with?
I disagree that critiquing Kamala automatically makes me a 3rd party voter. I'm vote blue no matter who, but I can see that explaining the trolley problem isn't working at the moment.
Yeah, I would absolutely expect someone with a sign of this style to call every single instance of genocide "The Holocaust". That's precisely the level of historical literacy I'm used to seeing from middle-class weirdos who buy these things.
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I feel like you're getting a bit semantic. A holocaust vs THE holocaust are pretty close and the meaning gets across.
I’m used to seeing from middle-class weirdos who buy these things.
so what kind of weirdo are you having to somehow felt the need to put the world "middle-class" in here?
Could you add Hamas is still holding people hostage, which is a war crime? Also maybe mention that the current leader of Hamas planned and executed an attack on villages where over a thousand people were brutally butchered?
But I guess that makes it less simple, doesn't it? Sucks that reality is too complicated to fit into a meme.
Let's add: "Jihadism is dangerous"
"Hamas is a terrorist organisation"
"Innocent should not die no matter if they were born in Tel Aviv or in Gaza"
"7 of October of 2023 was a terrorist attack"
"Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution"
"Blindly supporting muyahidins, I mean, intifada, has not a good historic record"
"A Hamas led Palestine would be very similar to any other Islamic dictatorship, which is not good for Palestinians, specially women and LGBT"
Under any circumstances innocents should die, and anyone (ANYONE) killing civilians is a piece of shit. But the fact that Israel government is a Piece of Shit does not mean that Hamas is not also a Piece of Shit. Some people seems to forget that when it comes to codemn the cruelties inflicted in that region.
If we didn't signal our virtues, nothing would ever happen.
People MUST speak their feelings about things or the very worst things go unchallenged.
What you meant to say is "Let's not make me cringe by making me think about things that have deeply divisive social consequences in either one direction or another, yet I keep getting bombarded with messages that I need to take a side on this issue, why can't I just play video games in peace."
Perhaps, but this is just mutual masturbation, and Lemmy is a total echo chamber. You can challenge things when you hear them, in the real world. In my experience it helps to treat this as a teaching opportunity, while understanding that you can't bully people into a different point of view. I don't play video games.
in the real world
An entire generation of people have been all but ruined because their parents raised them saying "Don't believe anything on the internet, it's not the real world" and as a result it's become the place where we all get all of our information, opinions and news and do most of our social interactions, and yet have this "out" we can always pull when it makes us uncomfortable.
Don't like what some people somewhere think or say? Don't need to engage or weigh in, retreat to a bubble. Don't like what someone said about your comment? Say the whole thing isn't real, call light to the "bubble" while still being in it.
It's so, so many people. Just avoiding uncomfortable realities, repeating lines that sound like they work to stop arguments or discomfort, not actually engaging with anything in a way that would challenge your own feelings or beliefs.
I can even agree, to a degree.
You see - if Hamas would have an upper hand against Israel, it would absolutely direct forces to massacre Jews and kickstart apartheid and everyone would be cheering for Israel and against Palestine.
But here we are, with Israel being bigger and stronger and using its advantage to raze Palestine to the ground along with innocent people who did nothing to deserve this. And that's why people are pro-Palestine, really.
Also, while women and LGBT folks may suffer in their rights under an Islamic dictatorship, this is kinda better than just being dead. Israel does just that, and many in the Israeli command have made it very clear they do not care about the rights of Palestinian civilians.
I do understand that people tend to feel more inclined to side with the "weak part" of a fight. But being the weak part does not mean being in the right.
Both sides of a conflict can be wrong, even if someone is imposing their wrong on the others by a stronger use of force.
But I know how Hamas would masacrate Israeli civilians if given the chance and I cannot support that.
We need to thing a third way, different to what both sides are currently proposing and trying to do.
I think figures like Gandhi or MLK showed how to fight oppression without going into blatant murder and Jihad.
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good thing that Hamas only exists because of Israeli support, not just via suitcases of money, but also due to a thorough expunging of moderate agnostic opposition! and hamstringing the fatwa forces during the Hamas-Fatwa civil war where Hamas took over Gaza (Hamas won some local elections, but at the time it was still part of the Palestinian state)
That's pretty clear. Same happened with Al Qaeda and the USA.
So it amazes me when people follow hamas propaganda so easily.
“Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution”
It is not a "conflict zone" and it is not "complicated". It is classical settler colonialism with the inevitable goal of ethnically cleansing and genociding the native population. By this logic the Nazi "Lebensraum" ideology of invading Poland, systematically murdering not only Jews and other minorities, but death-Squadding entire villages to then settler their own people on the land would somehow be "complicated".
I suppose we live in different realities where 7 of October never happened or where missiles are not raining every day over Israel trying to indiscriminately killing people
If we live in different realities there's nothing to argue.
In my reality there has not been found any extermination camps. And the lots of civilians killed are killed like civilians are killed in most wars. Shitty but not comparable to ww2 Germany.
There's a conflict, there is a war between two tyrant and radical organizations. Israel Army (Supported by USA) and Palestine Army(Supported by Islamic countries and terrorist organizations), and both are being pretty shitty and trying to exterminate the other one.
And the lots of civilians killed are killed like civilians are killed in most wars. Shitty but not comparable to ww2 Germany.
IDF is literally making tiktoks braggin about killing unarmed random people. Doctors in Gaza report children executed with single shots to the head, indicating IDF snipers deliberately hunting children. We've seen people burned alive, people beheaded, unarmed people hunted down by drones, clearly marked aid convoys blown up, journalists assasinated with precision strikes... And Gaza looks very similar to Stalingrad in being a field of rubble.
The scale is not the same and Israel is not running extermination camps (yet). But on the military side it has a lot of similarities to Eastern Front Wehrmacht.
Have you ever follow a war?
That happens in Gaza, happens in Yemen, happens in western sahara, happens in Ukraine, happens in Irak and syria, happens in every place there is a war...
It's not different to any other war. As bad as all the others.
The Holocaust didn't cause the impression it had because those things. Not because they killed people, but because of the scale and the industrial method of killing those people. Without those two factors killing, torturing, destroying people, and even ethic cleansing is just a Wednesday in any war.
Hamas is the resistance AGAINST a terrorist organization, sweetie.
Jihad is not dangerous when foreign countries are occupying your land and killing your people.
Hell, Jihad is not dangerous period. It’s the context in which the Jihad is performed that has the potential to be dangerous.
Hell, Jihad is not dangerous period.
My word! I simply had no idea that 9/11 and all the car bombings performed by ISIS in the late 2000s were not dangerous! You have no idea how much better that makes me feel.
It's surprising to see how many people don't know what Jihad even is.
9/11
car bombings
ISIS in the late 2000s
You'll be surprised to learn that none of these things fall under Jihad. I kindly request you do a little bit of research.
WoW! Just WoW!
XXI century and people defending Jihadism. Which is literally killing the infidel because your imaginary friend Allah told you so.
I suppose killing innocent and children, and imposing a medieval oppression on society is ok in your moral book if it is for the glory of Allah.
I suppose that you support then the murder of my family members who had died in the Jidhadist bombings in Madrid. The murder of a innocent teacher surely did a lot for resisting the evil west attacking their peaceful countries which surely don't behead homosexuals.
It looks like you have a lack of understanding of what Jihad even is, as well as the application of Jihad in war.
For example, take this:
killing innocent and children killing the infidel
Both of these comments wildly contradict Islamic doctrine as accepted by the majority of Muslims - lose the bias for a second and do a bit of research; you’ll see what I mean.
Additionally,
imaginary friend Allah
It’s quite rude to start throwing insults at basically everyone who believes in God based on your own misconceptions, or even otherwise. A level-headed discussion where insults don’t start randomly getting thrown around would do far better for everyone here.
Religion is not real. To myself belief in any God is an insult to human intelligence.
I would never support any religion. As religion is the dead of freedom and a wildcard to torture and oppression.
And religions that support the Holy War are just plain evil.
You tell my what justification there is to call Jihad over my country, as it was called by a Caliphate and we suffered several terrorist attacks over it. My people have been living here since before Mohammed invented his religious scam. What possibly justification does anyone has to kill innocent people to conquer my land for the glory of Allah? People DIED over that, so don't tell my I'm not understanding things, because I clearly understand that people who were alive are now dead because they called the Jihad on us .
You can say whatever you want but your lies won't bring the dead from their graves.
Reading your comment, I understand that I cannot clear up the various misconceptions (that I perceive) you have, which seem to be the result of complicated external factors and have deep emotional roots.
Sorry for wasting your time.
Allah knows best.
Please. How do you even talk about my "complicated external factors with emotional roots" when you just believe what you believe because you were indoctrinated by a religion, probably since they day you were born.
My morals come from the rational thinking and does not include justifying murder. Can you say the same?
can you say the same
Yes, I can. But I suppose you won’t agree anyways? Either way, it’s all good.
I think you need to be more explicit with your first statements. Any line fewer than 5 words is too vague. It should be long and read like it was scrawled over an entire vehicle.
You won't be happy with your opinion here. Lemmy is a pretty pro-terrorist place and gleefully ignore what Hamas, Mullah, Taliban (just look at Afghanistan) and all the other did, do and stand for. But thanks for your effort.
I'm just even surprised by the term "Free" Palestine.
Who would be Free in that supposed country?
Women would be free? No, they will be subjected to their husbands will.
Children would be free? No, they would be indoctrinated in Islam their whole life.
LBGT people would be free? No, they will be executed.
Non muslisms would be free? No, thay will be second class citizens.
Regular men would be free? No, they will have to follow the Coran or else.
What it is proposed by Hamas is not a Free Palestine, not by any definition of Free that I know.
Not the occupation of an Islamic Caliphate.
Changing one tyrant for another does not make you free.
Also if Israel citizens are "occupying" that place. What do you suggest to do with them are they not welcome there?, illustrate me on the solution, but please do not use the words "final solution".
Because sorry to break your bubble, Hamas does not propose peacefully coexistence of jews and Muslims on the same land.
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Israel is occupying Palestinian land.... we want to be free of occuaption. Not sure why you bring Islam into this since Palestinian society is quite diverse and encompasses many different perspectives and religions. I myself am a Palestinian atheist.
My suggestion is: one democratic state of Palestine for Jews, Muslims, Christians, whenever the fuck lives there. Democratic voting, a President.
"final solution" is a now used by Israeli officials to describe Gaza so rofl this is not even a serious convo now. You are just gaslighting and talking to a person in your head.
I would be down with making the whole land a unique democratic state, free to anyone to vote or belief whatever they want like any democratic nation.
But I'm sorry to say that no side of the conflict seeks that. Not Hamas, not the Israeli government. Both just seek total extermination of the other side.
Most of current Palestine is not only Muslim, but also pretty radical about their beliefs, that's just the way the cookie crumbles, there's no sugar coating it.
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I seek it. I'm one side in this too. There are many Palestinians and many Israelis who just want to have normal lives and full human rights for themselves and others.
I think you then might want to learn more about current Palestine, which is much more diverse than you describe.
Tell me, what should be done about the problem of Arabs and other brown skinned peoples currently occupying your God-given covenant and sacred land? Should the methods of the past be utilized - that they shall be put to the sword, they and their women and children, their livestock and all that loves in that land, their high places thrown down, and the Temple rebuilt?
Firstly if you think Muslims are brown skinned you have an incredibly narrow vision of the world.
Muslim world is pretty diverse in color. And many of them are way whiter than me. As a Mediterranean I have a beautiful dark olive tone on my skin.
Palestinians are not occupying anything. So there's no problem with their presence in that territory. Also if we defend free inmigration we should have accepted free inmigration of the Israel people to Palestine. So Israeli presence on former Palestinian-only land is not a problem.
A diverse country should be the solution. If Israelites want to live there they are free to do so. If Palestinians want to live there they are free to do so.
They both should be able to live side by side. And both groups should forget their Gods, because Gods does not exist.
both groups should forget their Gods
Welcome to the Middle East, please do try to stand up in a synagogue in Jerusalem and say this out loud.
the holocaust isn't happening again though?
Doesn't holocaust literally mean "death by all means necessary" I don't think i would consider this "death by all means necessary"
although i think etymologically holocaust just has to do with "burning by fire" but i recall the germans using a more extreme definition of the holocaust more broadly.
also how is zionism is a death cult? Cringe sure, but death cult? Yeah idk about that one chief.
holocaust
holocaust
noun ho·lo·caust ˈhō-lə-ˌkȯst ˈhä-, also -ˌkäst, or ˈhȯ-lə-kȯst
Synonyms of holocaust
1
: a sacrifice (see sacrifice entry 1 sense 2) consumed by fire
2
: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire a nuclear holocaust
3 a usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II Several members of her family died in the Holocaust. a Holocaust survivor b : a mass slaughter of people especially : genocide "a holocaust in Rwanda"
It's a holocaust.