https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/skip-antibacterial-soap-use-plain-soap-and-water?
There's no evidence OTC antibacterial soaps prevent disease more than washing with plain soap and water. Some antibacterial drugs can do more harm than good.
This aligns with what I've always been told. The mechanical action of thoroughly washing your hands for 20 seconds + the surfactant in the soap is enough to allow the subsequent rinse and dry to physically remove shit from your hands.
Same with your pits and junk. Just a normal bar of unscented soap is all you need to not be stinky and prevent bacterial growth particularly during the summer. Unless you have special needs based on skin conditions or gland conditions of course.
That's something a lot of people seem to miss.
Do I need Ritual of Oudh body scrub after my Summer Rain shower gel and afterwards before going out some Serendipity parfume? Fuck No! Does it help me feel good and I frankly got enough negativity in my life already and need some positive feelings? Yeah!
i believe that is why people invented perfume several hundreds of years ago, and coconut can be achieved by simply getting some cocoa butter and using it as skin lotion.
hair too, most people most of the time will do just fine with a simple bar of soap in the shower, all shampoo does is detonate a nuclear bomb on your scalp so you then have to put oil back with conditioner, it's the textbook definition of making you dependent on a product.
you only need shampoo if you have some specific scalp condition or you decided to rub shit on your head, otherwise soap is absolutely fine and frankly you'll probably do fine with just water and rubbing yourself down thoroughly.
The antibacterial soaps also help create supergerms that can survive the antibiotic used. They should only be used in medical settings when necessary. The overuse of antibacterial soaps and antibiotics are going to help create more pandemics should enough bacteria become antibiotic-resistant.
That's very true, but also, the overuse of antibiotics on livestock dwarfs any overuse normal people are doing. We need to make the farmers stop, too.
Is antibacterial soap using antibiotics though? I thought it was just using something like alcohol to kill off bacteria and not an actual antibiotic.
They don't seem to use the same active ingredients as antibiotics, but the concern of bacterial resistance still apples.
"The [FDA] issued a proposed rule in 2013 after some data suggested that long-term exposure to certain active ingredients used in antibacterial products — for example, triclosan (liquid soaps) and triclocarban (bar soaps) — could pose health risks, such as bacterial resistance or hormonal effects. "
There's another web page from the FDA entitled "Antibatcerial Soap? You Can Skip It, Use Plain..." however I can't open the link to see if there's mote talk about bacterial resistance.
Friendly reminder people can stop eating meat at any point if they don't want to contribute to problems like this.
No they don't. The stuff they put in soap to kill germs has nothing at all to do with antibiotics taken to stop infections.
You win this round. It does state that triclosan hasn't been allowed use in soap in the US for the past 7 years, though. So that's not in any of the soaps here.
Yeah, they don't use that specific ingredient anymore, however the same concern is still there. Some bacteria could survive the soap if everyone using said soaps don't wash their hands properly every time they use the soap.
If I recall correctly from a report early in the covid pandemic, regular soaps attach to the cell membrane of bacteria and to oils/debris on the hands. Physically rubbing your hands together for the 2 minutes rips the bacterial and viral matter apart and dislodges whatever other debris is on them and then the water pulls the soap and everything attached to it down the drain. There's nothing really for the bacteria or viruses to adapt to in that scenario.
Lol, sorry I recently went to the dentist and the 2 minutes to brush your teeth was fresh.
Hand washing should be 20 seconds of scrubbing after lathering your hands in soap.
It's still dumb as hell. It's a moving target, with one antibiotic being replaced by another. It's impossible for any scientific study to show something doesn't cause super bugs since it would need to test against every single virus. They can only show that they DO cause super bugs against a specific one.
Plus, again, completely unnecessary in the first place. We need to stop fucking around with things like antibiotics in soaps, new chemicals on nonstick cookware, new types of plastics in our food containers, etc.
There is no such thing as "anti-bacterial soap", on the basis that all soap, by it's very function, is anti-bacterial. Because of this fact any company can add the words "anti-bacterial" on their soap, as it's never technically wrong.
How does soap kill bacteria?
Soap is an emulsifier type chemical. That is to say, soap has molecules that like water and hate oil on one end, and hate water and like oil on the other. The molecule looks kinda like a hairpin, and you cannot have soap without it.
Cell and bacterial walls have a double layer of similar molecules that create a barrier between the inside of the cell and the outside world. The soap molecules attach themselves to the bacteria's walls and then tears them apart.
Your skin is largely protected because it's made of many layers, the top most being made of dead skin cells. But high enough concentrations of soap can cause serious chemical burns, as what the soap does to bacteria it can do to your skin cells. However, very low concentrations of soap is all that's needed to wash yourself.
The difference between regular soap and antibacterial soap is that the antibacterial agent is usually something like triclosan or triclocarban, which is meant to slow the growth of new bacteria.
This gives soap a 1 2 punch as when you wash you kill pretty much 100% of the bacteria, but bacteria is everywhere so you almost immediately start picking more up as soon as you start coming into contact with other surfaces (the shower knob, the door handle, your phone, etc) so the antibacterial agent will help prevent the explosive bacterial growth after you've acquired it.
To be clear, I'm not defending antibacterial soap. In 99% of cases regular soap does exactly what people need. As a regular person, if you're worried about bacterial contamination that much, you shouldn't be using antibacterial soap in place of regular soap when you wash - you should just be washing more often.
I personally do have a very specific benefit that I experience when I use antibacterial soap: it takes longer for me to start smelling after I start sweating. The difference is noticeable for me. Presumably it is noticeable for the people around me as well. I could fix this problem by showering more often, but when I already shower once a day I'm not gonna go grab a quick one after lunch just for the hell of it, especially since excess water use is a problem anyways. Also where the fuck am I gonna find a shower that I'm just free to use at lunch time? So, antibacterial soap, and deodorant, fills that time gap for me.
Bots will talk whatever they've been told to talk about. It's just that your entire post reads like an ad. Startig with praising the soap, using the sandwich method to affirm that you're not defending it while defending it, and then closing with your personal positive use and experience.
Textbook marketing.
Except for the fact that I didn't in mention any specific product, so I literally didn't market anything.
Your response also reads like a bot, using the rule of three then punctuating it with your conclusion.
Effective means of communication are effective. It's only sensible bots would be written to use the most effective method possible to get their points across.
Seriously!? Huh...
This was my very first subject in college level chemistry here in Denmark.
Most countries don't have colleges like the American ones. It's called University and you only do things related to your degree. We also don't normally do the whole major and minor thing. It's very weird that you have people in who aren't doing a chemistry course and take chemistry classes in degree level education. Instead in most places you do college or sixth form before starting University, that's a separate institution. College and sixth form does some of what high schools do in America (starting at 16), but are also just a general educational institution that anybody can attend to do any number of different qualifications. Some even offer courses that form part of a degree where you spend your last year at University.
That is literally how the school system works in Denmark, too. I'm not sure why he's taking for granted that anyone would have taken college level chemistry classes. We can pretty much pick and choose what classes we want to take starting around age 16, and once you get to a college level, your classes are just related to whatever degree you're getting.
You don’t need antibacterial soap at all, if anything it hurts your immune system in the long run.
Covid probably helped sell a few extra bottles. Now that concern is lessening people want their hands to smell like cinnamon.
I was trying to buy some at target about a month ago and there were only like 2 options that even claimed to be soap. The rest were "hand wash" and all of it was weird generic brands I'd never heard of. I haven't used it yet but I do not feel confident with that purchase at all.
I never stopped to ask what is in " antibacterial" soap that makes it such? Do they straight-up put an antibiotic in it like fucking Neosporin?
Then you've got "hand sanitizer" which is usually just denatured ethanol and some gelling agent.
Anything that can kill living organisms to the guaranteed percentage, isn't not as cut and dry as "alcohol" in hand sanitizer. A lot of them are a based in chlorine.
hocl?
*I only ask this as I knew someone who claimed to be an inventor of this and well...I listened quite a bit on the whole bit. I liked them a lot, but we sort of parted ways at some point. But I thought they were good people. I just think about this...chemical compound (I guess you'd call it) from time to time because of them. But also see it sometimes listed on things nowadays.
First result detective but it looks mostly like triclosan C12.H7.Cl3.O2. hocl appears to be used more for water purification than cleansing agent.
The lovely individual I was talking about above told me it can kill all sorts of of stuff. I gave a look-up on it after I wrote this cause I knew I could find some things on them and here's a little bit here:
"The spray could be used in health-care facilities, restaurants, cruise ships, water parks, any place where many people interact in a potential breeding ground for infectious diseases that are becoming increasingly resistant to antibiotics. "
Not sure. I would have been happy with just a product from a brand I recognized that actually claimed to be soap without weird marketing weasel words.
(In the US) bans on some of the major AB chemicals went into effect in 2016, so that's helped cut back on what's on the shelves. Manufacturers have had to reformulate or just stop.
More public awareness is still very much necessary though
Fwiw, this has been a thing in medical circles for a while now. I've been out of the field since 2008, and we had switched away from antimicrobial soaps already, even out here in the boonies.
So, no need to worry much about it.
Killing things just so they're dead isn't a good way to live on this planet. There are plenty of reasons to control populations of different species, but only so we can continue living in the society that's been built.
I've been trying to avoid soap labelled antibacterial for this reason, and it's tricky to even find any that's not labelled antibacterial.
Been wondering if they don't just slap the label on any soap, because it could be considered antibacterial by its nature. Apparently not?
We have this weird idea that our body needs constant sterilization. We're a complex biological construct made up of our own genomes, and the genomes of millions of other species of bacteria living in unison. We're pretty self-regulating.
I don't use antibacterial soap of any kind on my hands, and try to avoid hand sanitizer as it dehydrates the hell of my skin. I also don't use body wash unless I have actual dirt and grease to wash off of my body, and I only exfoliate once or twice weekly to keep my skin healthy. My usual shower involves rinsing thoroughly, superficially washing "pits and bits" with unscented baby soap / synthetic detergent (syndet), and then washing and conditioning my hair.
I basically don't have to wear deodorant anymore unless I plan on working out. My body doesn't produce the same kinds of smells anymore. My skin looks awesome, and ingrown hairs and pimples are now a very rare occurrence.
Before, when I used to scrub myself with body wash from head to toe every day, I would find myself smelling like old soup by mid-day if I didn't slather myself in deodorant. These days I smell fresh most of the day deodorant-free, with only the need for a spritz of fragrance at most.
You can also get away from using shampoo. Just spend several minutes vigorously scrubbing under the shower.
I think it's on account of it creating super germs. Correct? Not entirely sure, I guess I could click the link but I am about to hop off and don't need to wander down another rabbit hole.
It's more than that, its been shown to not be any more effective than regular hand washing with non-antibacterial soap, and it has major negative ecosystem impacts. For example, it is hard to filter and fish downstream of AB soap bioaccumulate the AB chemicals to the point of toxicity.
At best it's useless, at worst it contributes to AB resistance, and is toxic to downstream flora and fauna.
Ah, that's a good one. I remember when organic dish soap started coming on to the scene. I am going to take a stab here and say probably for the same thing? I was hoping that it all gets filtered out at a water processing plant. But I am probably just being too optimistic. Thank you for your response =)
Anyone know if scrubbing with water alone is better or worse than not doing anything? I've occasionally ended up in public bathrooms with no soap and I wonder if I should use water or not.
Better than nothing. Water is a great solvent and will get rid of larger particles. Use hot water to dislodge more oily things.
Yes, scrubbing with water is still useful. Besides being a detergent, what soap does is raise skin pH to make it less likely that bacteria can grow on the surface.
I am glat that you posted this but also sad that it's not more widely known. The 20-second hand wash with any standard soap is all you need in the entire world.
I've reduced to antibacterial in the bathroom only and any old soap in the kitchen. Could be I don't need the bathroom one either.
soap is creating an enviroment that makes the bacteria lose its grip on the things its holding (you).
antibacterial soap is killing the bacteria while making it lose its grip on you
it doesn't need to be killed to be removed from you, basic soap is good enough unless you are in a hospital environment
Look, let's be real. Nitpicking over dictionary definitions like a grammar-Republican isn't making anyone smarter. When you're that obsessed with splitting hairs over precise definitions, you're actually creating a fog of confusion. It's like trying to explain quantum physics with a thesaurus, you end up sounding like a pretentious know-it-all instead of a clear communicator.
There is "I'm trying to open people's eyes to the truth" focusing on details and definitions.
Then there's "I'm a cunt and you're an idiot" splitting of hairs that add nothing to the conversation or anyone's thoughts on the matter.
Guess which group you fall in. (Hint; the votes on your comment)
Loving all the kickback for stating an empirically correct statement. This platform is wild.
I'm curious enough to continue the conversation, if only because talking about definitions is interesting. So I'm not being confrontational, I actually want to have a discussion.
You say that all soaps are antibacterial because the result in the end is that no bacteria remains on the hands. I see what you're saying there. But anti-bacterial soap kills the bacteria, including the remaining ones that couldn't be removed.
That's like saying that removing a group of humans based on ethnicity from a region, without killing them, amounts to genocide. Would you say that's genocide too?* (And I know the comparison is extreme.)
*I think I read somewhere that forcibly removing people from a region amounts to genocide, though. But you know what I mean...
Then what do people mean when they say normal soap and antibacterial soap and how does that affect what I should be using after handling raw meat or just going to the toilets etc?
It would appear lemmy has deemed your post worthy of a dog pile because another user came along to nitpick, by accusing you of nitpicking.
Yes folks, all soap is antibacterial, and that's a great point to make in this thread. Plain soaps pops their cell walls quite nicely. I roll my own olive oil soaps and it's wonderful.
My possibly unpopular opinion is that just using water is probably more than sufficient unless you've been handling something that has visibly stained your hands. Some level of "dirt" on your hands is probably better for your immune system than perfectly clean ones. I've never been much of a hand washer myself. I use my hands a lot, I touch everything, I don't wear gloves at work and I bite my nails. Yesterday I pulled carrots from the ground and rubbed worst of the soil away onto grass and ate them like that. I can't help but feel that behavior like this is to thank for the fact that I'm never sick and I have zero allergies or food intolerances.
And that's what we call survivorship bias. Sure you'll be ticking along fine until some Legionella or Botulism just kills you before anyone knows it, other than maybe the doctor if you see one on time and the coroner. Then the next you online just assumes no need to wash things with soap because you just blipped out silently from existence.
There's a reason billions of humans didn't populate the earth until modern sanitation and understanding of disease.
Now sure some dirt every now and then from gardening (you still breathe some in after all) will do you good, keep your immune system busy. You're right on that. But eating carrots straight from the ground is just rolling an unnecessary gamble you don't need. You're not wrong in that too much sanitation isn't good either - but you do misunderstand a bit what that means. You don't have to wear gloves working the ground - unless you have open cuts. You don't have to soap up your carrots - but you do gotta give em a good rinse. Just dial it back a bit and you'll make it unlikely to end up in a miserable time later in life, while still getting those benefits. A castle is strong, but just takes one thing to sneak in to bring it down from the inside - best not invite too many invaders once it's already been built
Water won't prevent the spread of disease. Things like flu viruses, C diff, jock itch, antibiotic resistant bacteria, etc will spread if you don't use soap.
If you're healthy and just staying at home, sure it doesn't hurt to be eating some dirt bacteria. But you should use soap after being in public places, at hospitals, after pooping, or after touching genitals or feet.
Like you, I stick all kinds of shit in my mouth, got a real oral fixation. OTOH, I wash my hands frequently with homemade soap. And also like you, I rarely get sick.
If you don't give your immune system a workout, it seems to taper off.