Everyone keeps talking about outdoor cats but what about, outdoor DOGS?!?!?
Oh hell yes I have been wanting to rant about this
So my main reasons for saying cats should be kept inside at all times do not apply to large dogs:
dangerous to wildlife -- dogs are loud, oafish and slow. My dog couldn't catch an animal if her life depended on it
vulnerable to predation -- again nothing around here could take down a large dog except maybe a bear, but they tend to stay away from people and dogs
can get run over by a car -- only an issue if dog goes in the road
All 3 of these issues are negated if the dog is properly contained by a fence. Unlike cats, dogs aren't climbers and so can be easily confined.
As long as the weather is good, and the enclosure is large... Say a tenth of an acre back yard, or maybe larger, a dog would be perfectly fine outside and maybe even beneficial by keeping pests away, particularly deer. And likely would be happier and more stimulated than they would be trapped inside as long as they have access to shelter, food and water, and frequent contact with people.
The whole "dogs are social animals and need to be kept in your house and allowed to sleep in your bed and eat out of your plates" attitude in a lot of dog specific spaces is nuts imo and a uniquely American phenomenon. They are not people, they are dogs.
I would feel the same way about cats except as we have outlined many times cats allowed to free roam are a danger to themselves and unlike dogs can't be reliably confined, except with something like a catio.
Under no circumstances should an animal be allowed to wander off of its owner's property, not only because it's disrespectful but also people are more dangerous than wildlife, putting out poison and stuff.
The whole "dogs are social animals and need to be kept in your house and allowed to sleep in your bed and eat out of your plates" attitude in a lot of dog specific spaces is nuts imo and a uniquely American phenomenon. They are not people, they are dogs.
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It fucks me up when I meet someone with a border Collie or a husky or any other kind of working dog and the owner treats it like an indoor cat. They'll say shit like "oh he's just a little crazy" when the poor thing inevitably acts out because it gets nowhere near the attention and exercise it literally needs.
If you're not taking your working dog for 5 mile runs every day then you better have a fuckton of open space they can play on. Otherwise it's just cruel
The whole "dogs are social animals and need to be kept in your house and allowed to sleep in your bed and eat out of your plates" attitude in a lot of dog specific spaces is nuts imo and a uniquely American phenomenon
Lapdogs generally were not bred in America
Your post implied you considered deer to be pests, which makes me think you must be fifty feet tall
Ha no I am normal height but I assure you deer are absolutely pests for anyone who lives in the country
They do so much damage to my young fruit trees.
I'll be happy to share with them when we get fruit, but the trees need to survive to the point where the deer snacking on some leaves won't kill them!
I've taken to installing small fences around the trees that the deer can easily reach over but discourage the fawns from stripping my saplings.
Same. Or if you have a vegetable garden you have to high fence it. They're dumb as hell so if they manage to make their way into a fenced in area they're going to bust out the side.
I like looking at them, they're cute, but they are super destructive and overpopulated. They need predation. Bring back wolves, unironically
I feel like arguing both it isn't dangerous to wildlife and also it keeps pests away is at contradiction to each other here. Like it's still fucking with whatever is left of it's nature, even if it's not actively killing it.
This is a good point and I'm glad you brought it up. A dog will frighten wildlife but won't kill it. Like a dog will never be able to actually catch and kill a deer. So they'll scare it away but won't actually harm it. This is in the context of being in a fenced in area, as opposed to like a wildlife preserve where maybe a single off leash dog isn't a problem but hundreds of them are
I'm not going to blame the state of things on like your dog or a dog specifically, but it kind of gets into "no drop of water feels responsible for the wave" thing as per frightening wildlife. Like that's still bad for the wildlife, just less bad. It seems to draw the line at "anything that isn't actually shooting them is not somewhat bad", but I don't think that works out, because you can apply it to pretty much anything that is detrimental to nature.
Livestock and rodents though. My sister found out her dog had a monstrous prey drive the hard way. Took it on holiday out in the country side and it killed a rabbit, attacked a sheep, and tried to fight a fox. An otherwise very normal and even timid city raised dog.
Wow interesting. I am surprised a dog could catch a rabbit, seriously. I didn't think they'd be fast enough but clearly I am mistaken.
Maybe it's a breed thing. Anyway clearly I shouldn't generalize the way I did, clearly it's a call that has to be made on a case by case basis. At any rate I think there are some instances where it's ok to let a dog spend most of its time outside, but definitely not for cats
It is surprising, yeah, considering it was not a specialised hunting breed. Could've been a dozy old rabbit I suppose.
I'd be less surprised if a whippet or a borsoi caught one. I also wouldn't be surprised if a Jack Russell came back with any sort of rodent in its maw.
But yeah, otherwise true. But then isn't it cruel to make a cat live a life indoors? Once upon a time they were wild and free to catch as many birds as they liked.
Surely there are different areas cats could roam free - rats and cats from colonist ships destroyed flightless bird populations. But where were cats and rats native in the first place? What's a safe place to be for them to exist as a non-invasive species?
I don't really have a strong opinion considering I don't, never have, and never will own a cat.
Dogs on the other hand of course get to rule the roost. I think they can be domesticated much further away from their wild side, unlike cats.
A dogsitter of my dogs now trusts them to hang out unsupervised with their uncaged guinea pigs and rabbits. One of my dogs is completely unbothered by their existence. The other approached a gerbil - the room went silent in anticipation of an urgent gerbil rescue mission - only for the dog to give it a huge lick and then wander off, uninterested.
In fact, that dog once brought back a baby squirrel in his mouth. I was anticipating a bloody cleanup, but no, it was completely alive and well, and he set it down in front of me and stayed by it, licking it every now and again. The local wild animal rescue team came by and said it had probably fallen out of its tree and been left to die. They said it was fine but in a shocked state, and took it away, presumably nursed it and released it.
I was shocked. Up to that point, given his overall demeanor as a scrappy squirrel chaser, who often didn't quite understand the boundaries of play fighting, I thought he would've ripped that thing to pieces.
The whole "dogs are social animals and need to be kept in your house and allowed to sleep in your bed and eat out of your plates" attitude in a lot of dog specific spaces is nuts imo and a uniquely American phenomenon. They are not people, they are dogs.
dogs are much less likely to be fed table scraps & waste in the US, yankees invented the industrial food waste rebranded into 'pet food' and many dog owners i've met refuse to feed them 'people food'. which is sort of fraught because on the one hand a lot of shitty sugary yankee food can make a dog upset like it will make an unaccustomed human upset, but normal food is fine
I’ve always been a believer that most people are intrinsically good and will make good or bad decisions mostly based on their material conditions
I’ve had to question this belief after seeing people leave dog poop right next to the “please pick up your dogshit” bag dispenser/trashcan
ton of people around me just let their dog roam around the neighborhood and shit all over the place and this one little ratty dog I've personally seen almost get squashed by a car multiple times so my answer is a resounding outdoor dogs bad.
Lots of people will just put their dog on a chain or in a cage outside, and then basically forget about the dog for 23 hours a day. It's cruel and inhumane.
outdoor cats kill little animals like birds and rodents. Escaped powerful dogs kills cats, small dogs, little kids and the elderly. I've read too many horror stories about pitbulls and other dangerous powerful dogs.
They can do pretty decent damage to healthy adults too. I got attacked by a couple of larger dogs a few years ago (technically not pitbulls, but a related breed I'm not sure), had to get surgery and couldn't do my bullshit deskjob for like a month. Any physically intensive job and I would've needed 6 months off work. Considering what dicks employers are I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who end up homeless because someone forgot to close their backyard gate one day.
The worst part is that dogs are pack hunters, so while one dog isn't much of a threat, ten dogs are a mortal danger, especially to children.
I just really don't want my kids around any dogs, which is why I disagree with just letting any of them roam. A dog snapped at my kid's face and now we're both afraid. Dogs just aren't people. They get upset and bite. I don't mind people having them, but yeah.
I had a very dogcentric childhood. My mother and dad (divorced) both had no less than 6 dogs at any point in my childhood. Most of my childhood at my moms she had 2 weinerdogs, 1 lab, 1 pitbull, 1 german shephard, and 1 outside beagle. Every day I'd spend 30min every 2hours taking them all outside so they didn't piss and shit on the floor.
Last I knew, in addition to having 4 dogs that she actually cared about, my mom had ~4 pitbulls in her basement that just lived in cages unless she was taking them out to piss and shit. These dogs are rescues from kill shelters, bait dogs for dog fighting or breeders for the same reason. They end up in her care because one of her "pitbull activist" friends will call her saying they are going to be euthanized, and she'll come adopt them on the spot. These shelters know my mom well, and to her credit, she does manage to get some of these animals into homes that probably treat them atleast a lil better than she does. I don't think she realizes how neglectful she is but she gets INCREDIBLY defensive when anyone brings it up. They'd be dead without her, but I can't imagine the life she gives them is one much worth living.
My dads dogs all came in at night, but they were all outside dogs living out in the countryside. My mother would always criticize the way my dad took care of his animals because he didn't keep them wormed but in comparison to my mother, I do feel like they had a far better quality of life. They did constantly terrorize the neighbors cows though, and there were a couple different occasions where my dad and I had to spend an afternoon picking birdshot out of them because a farmer shot at them. Eventually they ended up killing one of the neighbors cows and my dad had to pay, and that was a reason enough for him to stop getting new pets. His behavior was simply a different kind of neglect and I don't think it was good ownership at all, but I do think his dogs lived a better life than any of the dogs my mom had (including the indoor dogs I took care of growing up).
I don't really like the idea of owning pets in general because of my childhood experiences, but if you must own dogs, I think you need far more space for them than most people would consider necessary so they can experience some semblance of freedom, and I definitely think atleast 1/3 of their time should be spent out in the wilderness having fun doing dog things (I don't know if there are environmental reasons not to do this so input would be welcomed).
The main issue with dogs in wilderness areas off leash is that they harass wildlife and trample understories, which can be home to vulnerable species. The wildlife harassment thing doesn't seem like it's a big deal except if it's every third hiker with an off leash dog then these poor animals are forced to live in a constant state of terror.
As long as they're leashed and kept on trail it's not a big issue, and very very good for them mentally
That is a Jack Russel Terrier, the greatest dog to ever dog. ~12 lbs of pure energy that can be sated only with digging and 'the chase.'
To keep that little bundle of chaos indoors full time is to invite destruction itself into your home.
A mixed indoor-outdoor setup is ideal, but if any dog is going to thrive in an outdoor environment (fenced with shelter, water, food, and some additional protection under the fence to discourage tunneling out), it would be that beautiful creature right there.
It's already a thing in rural Poland, we gotta ask @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml as it's his area of expertise
There was always plenty of dogs in rural Poland, but since the traditional farming in last 30 years went into ass for small businesses, leeching off various donations and building Polish versions of McMansions there is barely difference from cities. Of course in the more backwards villages everything might looks as 50 years ago with dogs running freely or even be tied with chain (this is less common now as police slaps fines for this). Now about cities, there's very few outdoor dogs now, as control and registration methods are up. Shit is still everywhere though, i guess you can't have everything.
Also in 90's after entire country went to shit because capitalism, both villages and cities were full of feral dog packs.
Outdoor dogs (at least in the US) are typically treated as outdoor cats should be: “Oh no you’re not supposed to be outdoors you’re supposed to be indoors or at least with designated humans, let’s find your humans”
That’s why I said “with designated humans”
If you see an unaccompanied dog walking down the road that is usually sign for alarm, and unaccompanied dogs are usually picked up and their owners searched for.
If you see an unaccompanied cat, most people assume it’s just a stray cat
I forgot my dog (f1 labradoodle) outside for like a half hour the other day, no fence, no nothing he was totally free to be on his way. Instead he stood at the door the entire time waiting to be let in.
