https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/death-clocks-are-ghoulish-whatever-you-think-about-billionaires-in-subs-20230623-p5diyl.html
disgust at the vast hoarding of wealth and suffering caused by billionaires is one thing, but openly revelling in their death is gross and i wish more people would say it. it often feels like people have a streak of sadism that they want to direct at an "acceptable" target through bloody revolution, rather than being leftist because of compassion for other living beings
I just honestly didn't give a shit about them, and still it was all over the news.
How many people died in car crashes eachday this coverage was everywhere?
A group of rich people with poor research skills exploded themselves, and it just doesn't matter to me.
We don't spend half this time crying over much bigger tragedies.
I reckon that people become leftists out of compassion, but the dehumanizing rhetoric seems cool and edgy; so they slide into it, thinking it’s OK.
Hate systems, not people. Don’t eat the rich, eat their money.
I think that years of struggle just to meet basic needs leads to dangerous anger, resentment, and bitterness. Tbh billionaires are the ones who have rigged the system against us with decades of lobbying and most, if not all of them, would gladly see us dead in a cost benefit analysis if it gained them profit, so I have no problem with people taking pleasure in their misfortune. They made their choices and current public opinion is the consequence of that. No one gets to and stays at billionaire status off of pure merit alone...
Systems exist because people willfully build and maintain them. Extreme wealth inequality is not the result of an accident. It is very much by design.
This is true, but also, the system is designed to make more people to make the system.
Wealthy kids grow up extremely sheltered and disconnected from the reality of most every else, and while that leads them to being assholes and making horrible decisions and etc, it's not entirely their fault they ended up like that given their upbringing.
Schools also propagate terrible ideas, and distort history, etc, by design, but also the kids that grow up in those schools often end up parroting and reinforcing those ideas just because they don't know any better.
Personal politics, still, is statistically ties to your family's politics and where you grew up. People can break out of that, sure, but it's an extra step, and one that often is personally costly because it can break social and family ties.
That obviously doesn't mean people who were raised by asshole families and taught by assholes can't be held accountable/responsible for then also behaving like an asshole, but they're that way because of external factors, not because they were just born bad. The systems self-perpetuate through making more people who benefit from them and believe in their virtue, then those people raise more people to fit the system, and so on. Just taking down a few people at the top of a system doesn't do anything to stop the machinery that will create and empower their replacements.
The system has to be fixed at a system level, or else the system will just keep churning out assholes. This is true regardless of whether the system was designed out of malice or ignorance or pure chance or all three.
To play a little bit of devil's advocate.
People do have an ingrained instinct for in/out groups and dehumanizing and even wishing for harm to befall the out group is very much a part of human nature. That there is harm being inflicted on the in group by the out group (perceived or true) will of course reinforce this.
Having said that, most people will agree that we should be more than our base instincts and use at least logic if not compassion in our decision making.
Ignoring the fact that some of these people were billionaires, I think all of them forfeited any respect for their lives when they chose to step into a metal tube and put several miles of water between them and the breathable atmosphere, for fun. Same as mountaineers choosing to climb into a "death zone". If you choose to go there for fun then that's how much YOU value your own life and your relationships. I don't see why I should then have a huge amount of sympathy when these people inevitably die.
I cannot understand why the military was mobilised at huge cost? Surely these people should sign a much more wide ranging waiver saying they are doing this at their own risk and should not expect any rescue attempts beyond what the organisers insurance policy covers?
I cannot understand why the military was mobilised at huge cost?
I thought this at first. However, it was the Coast Gaurd who was doing a lot of the rescue operation. Rescuing people from their bad boating decisions is most of what the Coast Gaurd does - if we don't want to pay for it then we'd need to disband the Coast Gaurd. The only options were for us to pay for them to sit and watch or pay for them to try to help. At least they got more experience with these sort of rescues by trying to help.
I remember years ago a bunch of people were bitching about the cost when some family that got rescued in the middle of the ocean. The coast guard response to the money complaints was,"Look, if we weren't rescuing them, we would be running drills to prepare to rescue them at the same cost."
That is the one good thing that comes out of this. Lot of really good training. Something might come out of the investigation though these guys probably violated so many standard practices that may have little value.
It's like when people bitch about having fighter jets fly over a baseball game. We don't rent F-16s from Lockheed every time we want to take one out, they're paid for already, and pilots need training. But I'm sure they're the same kind of people who don't understand why it's useful for military pilots to run drills on things like being in a specific place at a specific speed and making it line up at the exact right time. I say complain all you want about glorification of the military-industrial complex, but don't take the line that it's some atypically expensive cost to the taxpayer.
This viewpoint is misguided and inhumane, I'm sorry to say. We don't get to pick and choose who's lives have value, even if they do something risky or stupid.
I don’t see why I should then have a huge amount of sympathy when these people inevitably die.
Ugh
We don't get to pick and choose who's lives have value, even if they do something risky or stupid.
But isn't that exactly what happens? Was there as much of a rescue effort to find the hundreds of missing Pakistani migrants who went missing off the coast of Greece last week? Was it even as widely covered in the media as 5 missing rich people in a sub? Have you even heard that they were missing before this comment?
What about the 5,000 missing and murdered indigenous women who disappear every year? Are we mobilizing the military to find them?
We absolutely pick and choose whose lives have value. That's the problem.
We'll be sure to let the U.S. Coast Guard know about their lackluster presence in the Mediterranean Sea
Have you even heard that they were missing before this comment?
How could anyone who's been on beehaw in the last few days not have heard about the Pakistani migrants?
How could anyone in this thread not have heard?
We absolutely pick and choose whose lives have value.
I don't know who you mean when you say "we". If you mean governments and power structures then yes, I agree and it's one of the biggest flaws in our society. If you mean individuals, then yes, some people do, but it's wrong to do so whether it's billionaires, migrants, or anyone else. And I know a lot of people have a hard time with this.
I think there's a difference between choosing whose lives have value and choosing who to empathize with. I'm not celebrating their deaths, but aside from the teen who was on there, I can't say I feel much about it one way or another. They knowingly chose to take the risk, signing waivers saying that they knew the trip could result in death, and it ended badly.
Looking at it from a different angle, I can also see why people would be frustrated that an incredible amount of attention and resources are being spent on people who intentionally put themselves at risk for a pleasure jaunt, while if a fraction of that (on a per capita level) was spent on everyone who was at risk of dying from issues brought on or exacerbated by poverty, we'd be saving a lot of lives.
We have to choose where to spend the limited material and human resources we have.
These people made their own bed. Those rescue resources were wasted on them. Don't kid yourself that poor people in a boat accident would've got a 10th of that attention.
The US military spends 2 trillion a year. I'd much rather see those resources go into rescue operations than the opposite. Poor people in a boat should absolutely get access to the same resources, and the crime here is not that billionaires did, but that the migrants didn't.
These weren't people on the job, or people doing anything remotely necessary. This was a joy trip for spoiled richies, and I don't see any justification for spending societal effort on it.
Not to mention rescue was most likely doomed from the start considering how far beyond the depth of any successful rescue, ever, that this was.
Thousands of people step into a metal tube and put several miles of air between them and the ground on a daily basis. Some of them do it for fun, or at least in order to travel to the place where they plan to have fun.
That's not the problem. The problem is that those metal tubes are competently engineered. Usually.
If it was some experimental space aircraft that lost pressure and got stuck in orbit it wouldn't be the same as a normal aircraft going down. I would also say to leave it there as a reminder of man's hubris.
I think all of them forfeited any respect for their lives when they chose to step into a metal tube and put several miles of water between them and the breathable atmosphere, for fun.
Sure, I think it's maybe fair to say that about ceo, who cut all sorts of corners with the construction (and it was a carbon fiber tube, not metal, which was the main problem)
However, the 19 year old kid on board was dragged along by his dad, and was reportedly terrified and didn't want to go. I think it shows an extreme lack of empathy to say his life had no value because of the situation he was put in.
That's true. None of what I said applies to the 19 year old who seems to have been either cajoled or coerced onto that submarine.
The way I see it Stockton Rush conned them onto that boat, I might not like these people as people, but I don't put blame on them they probably should have done more research but we all sometimes jump into something without much, they probably assumed that because deep sea submersibles are a mature technology at this point with a pretty damn good safety record considering what it is that it would likely be fine.
He refused to allow non destructive testing of the Hull before and after dives or even on completion/delivery of the hull and relied on sensors to alert him to issues with the hull. Considering the relatively low cost of non destructive testing of composites it's wildly negligent.
Eh. Billionaires are each directly responsible for meteoric contributions to human suffering and loss of life. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to dismiss the humanity of folks who actively devalue the humanity of the vast majority of humans. Eat the rich.
I think it's unreasonable and a huge generalization. Tell me what the 19 year old billionaires son did to contribute to human suffering.
I appreciate your voice and the importance of the sentiment that all humans deserve fundamental dignity and respect.
That said, “all billionaires are malfeasant parasites who don’t deserve to participate in society” is a hill upon which I’m willing to die.
It takes a special kind of sociopathy to pillage and hoard resources unfathomable when people are starving, suffering, and dying.
“Eat the rich” is more stirring and concise than “humanely strip the heinously wealthy of their power and resources”.
I'm all for eating the rich. Never in my comment did I say I think that billionaires got their money by being kind.
The only way to have that money is to cause the death or at least loss of "life" (eg. Wage slavery, lobbying for less socal welfare while making sure you get all the tax cuts, ect.).
What I am saying is, at the end of the day, being angry at dead people won't help anyone that they hurt.
I wish you'd own your point of view instead of using weasel words. Do you support the respect and dignity of all people or not?
Preemptive edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Your first sentence is incomprehensible to me.
What I mean is that I logically it’s very good to have people who are passionate about honoring human respect and dignity. It’s more moral and closer to the kindest world we could have. A diversity of opinions is necessary and first, and foremost, I wanted to recognize and respect the good work of voicing a less popular opinion to uphold your virtues.
Personally, I’m more worried about the collective pain and suffering that could be avoided if the status quo is maintained than quickly taking action and inadvertently breaking eggs. IMHO, the main reason sociopaths prevail is that empathetic folks waste time and effort trying to find a fantasy path where no one is hurt. Seems to me like the focus should be efficient and effective resolution of societal issues generating mass suffering period rather than having an Entmoot.
We’re not going to be able to impress billionaires so much with kindness and consideration that they prioritize the greater good over short-term interests. Better is the enemy of done.
My viewpoint is that we need to prioritize the reducing the most suffering yesterday. you don’t have to and probably shouldn’t agree. Discussion and disagreement are necessary for coalescing on a good path forward. Better ideas come out of a composite of values, flat personal opinions.
Tl;dr - I think your ideals are good and right in an ideal world, but also think the sentiment has misplaced priorities in the nightmare unfolding with exponential consumption of resources and pollution of the planet. I’m grateful for the opportunity to discuss and this is a nice change of pace/tone from Reddit.
How many people died in car accidents, and from preventable disease, every day of the coverage?
I only have so many fucks to give and I'm not wasting them on some spoiled thrill seeker.
That's an insult to yourself though. Yes, you can run out of fucks when your office worker shits up the bathroom without a courtesy flush and so you just go in there and hold your breath vs saying something.
But in order to not give a fuck about the people in the submarine, you would scroll past the articles or you add them to your block list.
.... You don't comment on a thread that you have no fucks to give so why should I care about the humans who died.
Kindness sometimes is done by doing nothing.
And yet this issue was blown up all over international media, while thousands die of preventable disease and in conflicts with little to no interest.
The hypocrisy is worth noting.
What are you doing to help prevent those deaths? I'll be the first to admit I'm not doing enough, but I wouldn't use that in an argument.
I feel that you already have your mind set, so there is no debate. I appreciate your time given to comment, but this debate is going no where. But to throw one last word in, you really care a lot for someone without any fucks.
It's because I believe that "we" - culturally, socially - have limited fucks to allocate. Not just me personally. Calling this out as irrelevant encourages people to save their fucks for what matters.
DON'T SEE THE FNORDS, DON'T SEE THE FNORDS, DON'T SEE THE FNORDS
That's a strawman argument. No one is saying "I'm glad the son who didn't want to go on the boat died."
I do feel sympathy for the human lives lost, at the end of the day, they were still human. On the other hand, people are allowed to feel whatever they want.
Up until it was confirmed they died, I was on the side of "Fuck um', they're stupid act cost millions of tax dollars that they lobby to pay as little as possible into." But after it was confirmed, I still can hate billionaires, but I am now directing my anger at the CEO who bypassed all regulation to make money and took five innocent people with him.
The moments before the implosion were something that no one should ever need to feel in their lives.
(That being said, who tf unquestionably enters a vessel where you need to be bolted in from the outside and there is no emergency exit.)
The moments before the implosion were something that no one should ever need to feel in their lives.
Just to this point - it would have happened too fast for them to even register anything was happening. Complete destruction would occur in 1/20th of a second. (Per Insider/Naval History Magazine)
I feel like most people make an exception for the 19 year old kid. I haven't spoken to anyone who doesn't feel bad about him, but maybe that's just my circles.
I think you pick out a few people and generalize to make the point you want to make. Frankly I find I care more then I expect. I think it is all easier for us to feel for and care about individuals then larger groups of less specific people which this shows.
On the other hand dying is part of life. These guys died doing what they loved. This is somewhere between heroic and a Darwin award for choosing to take a sub with a fair number of known issues and the documents they signed were pretty explicit about the risks. Their families on the others hand are a different matter though they must have known the risks too.
This is also a great example of how billionaires operate. They are always saying they know best and no regulations or taxes please. Then when the shit hits the fan they want to be bailed out. Rescue effort here more of the same. Not saying we should have not done it. Just rather typical.
I do agree that they are pretty awful. I feel very little sympathy for the rich getting themselves killed doing stupid rich people stuff, but celebrating their death is still in poor taste.
Celebrate their deaths like you would the death of your skin cells. Forget about it.
Eh people like that CEO with his libertarian view of safety regulations actively hurt all of society, often to their own benefit. Them getting taken down by their own bullshit is unequivocally a boon to the masses. I can see not supporting celebrating their undoing but I don't think we should be reprimanding those who do celebrate
people like that CEO with his libertarian view of safety regulations actively hurt all of society
Sometimes, those views just sort of have a way of imploding.
For sure. Their passing is likely overall objectively good for humanity. By at least a little bit.
Hard to give a toss about most of them, they knew what they were getting into and it seems like the entire submersible community tried to warn against it, but such was ignored and disregarded as established interests stifling 'innovation'.
But I feel really bad for Suleman Dawood. He was just a kid, and was -- seemingly wiser than the rest of them -- rightly terrified of this aquatic death machine. A lot of people, especially in the media, have tried to make light of their collective, violent end, suggesting it should be some consolation that it would've been over before they knew anything was wrong, Except according those most informed on the situation, stubborn owner aside, those onboard seemed to be entirely aware something was wrong. (Why else would they have been trying to surface?) Really sucks that a teennager got roped into this stupidity on account of his Titanic-obsessed dad.
Gallows humour is to be expected with these things, but finding out about Suleman left me utterly depressed. Perhaps it's wrong to direct my irritation thus, but I felt particularly disgusted at someone who casted things as somehow beautiful for a father and son to die together, as though creating a deep, spiritual bond between them in the afterlife. So much media mindlessly lumping him in with his father's motivations as though he was a fellow extreme tourism enthusiast, rather than a scared kid simply looking to his father for validation.
beehaw: the enlightened platform where you can dehumanize people as long as youre polite and well-spoken about it
Most humans do that on a regular basis, so I'm not sure how that's supposed to be dehumanizing.
What anyone chooses to spend their money on. Is none of my business.
How they earn it and what share of taxation they face, really is the only debate any of us should feel entitled to.