https://variety.com/2024/tv/news/julia-louis-dreyfus-pc-culture-comedy-1236040236/
Julia Louis-Dreyfus does not believe political correctness is killing comedy.
Louis-Dreyfus’ interview with Kara Swisher followed her profile in The New York Times from earlier this month in which she made headlines for saying it’s a “red flag” when comedians complain about political correctness. While she never mentioned her “Seinfeld” co-star Jerry Seinfeld by name, her interview was published soon after he went viral for blaming the “extreme left and P.C. culture” for killing TV comedy because “people [are now] worrying so much about offending other people.”
“To have an antenna about sensitivities is not a bad thing,” Louis-Dreyfus told The Times. “It doesn’t mean that all comedy goes out the window as a result. When I hear people starting to complain about political correctness — and I understand why people might push back on it — but to me that’s a red flag, because it sometimes means something else.”
And for Seinfeld, of all people, to say something that is so... dumb.
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is essentially Seinfeld on crack. You have a cast of bad people with little redeeming qualities who are actively becoming worse people. And it's a massive hit that's been running longer than Seinfeld's own show.
In addition, what the hell, man? You are the cleanest, most white bread standup I've ever seen. I paid to see you do a ten minute bit on raisins that killed. You do not DO edgy comedy, so shut the fuck up.
And let's not forget about the guy who made the Seinfeld show what it was had an amazing run with his own show Curb your enthusiasm.
Not quite as spicy as Always Sunny but certainly had more punch that Seinfeld.
The common thread is it is hilarious to make the terrible people the butts of the jokes, not the minorities. It also helps running with some aspects as a joke (Mack's closeted gay in Sunny) and having them pay out emotionaly.
Being gay is not the joke like before "PC", the repression of it, the forced toxic masculinity is. But I guess that's a bit harder than kicking down so some conservative comedies are just crying they can't just do it like before.
Since when was comedy, especially edgy comedy, about doing the same thing as before? What happened to pushing the envelope?
Who wants the hear the same tired old jokes? Innovate or make space for new voices.
If you think PC culture is hindering your ability to make jokes, maybe you aren’t that much of a comedy genius
Yeah what's the deal with not being allowed to drop the N word anymore, humor is dead! /s
Conan O'Brien had an interview I think with Taylor Tomlinson where they talked about this topic.
Their conclusion was that comics that complain about it being harder to do comedy are just lazy.
It's always been hard. Even if it's true that there are less topics that you can touch, it means that you have to dig deeper in the well you can. It's your job as a comic to do that hard work, not the audience's job to laugh at your shit joke.
Conan has been doing comedy his whole life and talks about jokes that do great one night and jokes that bomb the next. Comics need to learn to read the room and adjust their jokes accordingly.
I agree but I do sympathize with one part of it. Things that were widely considered funny a few years ago are not today. I do think it's unfair to hold people in the past to the standards of today, but people love digging up old footage and bludgeoning people with it.
If a comic makes a joke and it bombs, maybe it's not funny. Maybe they used it with the wrong audience. Reading the culture and the room and choosing wisely is part of the job, like you say. But if it bombs 5 years later on Twitter, maybe it should have just been left in the past with the context it belonged in and not dug up and resurrected for clicks.
Plenty of people had the courage to call out injustice before it was popular. Mark Twain is a famous counterexample to "everyone was racist in the 1800s." Being an ignorant sheep is a valid defense for bigotry, but it's the lowest possible form of defense.
I'm not saying, "Hey, it's fine" I'm saying that people and cultures change, and should be allowed to change. Never before have people been so unable to escape their past. Yeah, occasionally you get a Bernie Sanders who seems to nail it right off. But most people have some skeletons or some shit they'd be embarrassed about if it were dug up and went viral.
When you dig up the past and hit people with it, you discourage progress. People are more likely to dig in their heels, knowing that the opinions they have today they'll have to answer for tomorrow.
I would argue that the axiom "consider the feelings of others" is pretty universal and timeless. Philosopher Simone de Beauvoir coined the imperative "do that which maximizes freedom for others" in 1947. Kant debuted his categorical imperative in 1785. These are not new ideas. You are acting like this is some arbitrary ethic which changes at random, when in reality the ideas of "don't be a dick" and "make society inclusive" is at minimum, centuries old.
At minimum, everyone always has the out of "I was wrong and now I understand." It is here that people like Seinfeld and Rowling really fuck it up.
people really love to forget that the american union army literally fought a war against slavery, The Battle Hymn of the Repbublic was written by an abolishionist and was inspired by John Brown's Body, a song about a man who was so furiously anti-slavery that he refused an insanity plea because that would lessen his anti-slavery message.
Like man, how many people nowadays are going to war specifically on the grounds of ending injustices like slavery? People of the past were unquestioningly capable of considering the rights of others and recognizing that exploitation do indeed be bad.
I think most of these comedians getting in trouble for being politically incorrect are just not being funny. The biggest sin of Chappelle’s standup, IMO, was that his jokes weren’t funny. Just played out conservative jokes.
The best comedians can always pull it off because they know it's about the focus of the joke. I have no idea who the original writer was, but there was a reddit thread about a cishet comedian who did
"You know how I know trans women are women? Because when we have sex they don't finish either"
I love it. It's a joke about trans people, but it works because the butt of the joke is the comedian himself... it even affirms trans identity.
It would be one thing if his trans Jokes were at least funny. But they are just mean and kinda weak. If you're going to offend me at least make me laugh damnit.
Right, "he saves more than he rapes" is honestly funny, though probably not a joke to tell outside the context of a shock humor show. "Hahahaha at least trans people weren't slaves hahahahaha" is just not funny.
It must come to as a shock that some trans people are, in fact, POC. The latest standup was, unfortunately, "old man fails to remain comedically relevant societal changes and goes full-boomer rather than practice self-reflection". He used to be a good comedian but clearly lost his touch or is phoning it in knowing that right-wingers are likely to shell out ridiculous money for hate.
People who claim humor has died because of PC culture, only know how to be funny at the expense of others.
Punching down isn't funny either punch up or yourself.
A female comedian I heard recently told a great joke about dating a trans person. Below is the link to her set. The joke is about 9 mins in but the whole set is worth a listen.
Comedians who got wealthy decades ago: Am I out of touch? No, it's the culture that's too PC!
Comedians who find it hard to strike home with "offensive" jokes should try the opposite approach for once, those whose jokes center around economic struggles and making fun of terrible people seem to be doing just fine.
Some bits are timeless, most go rancid after a decade or so. Anti woke comics are just as cringy as the sjw ones. If everyone in the audience is cheering and clapping but not laughing, that comic sucks ass. I wanna laugh so hard I puke. Whatever gets me there.
As far as stand up, I watched plenty of last comic standing at local events ruining my voice. Comedy is hard. People complaining should retire and let others shine.
Jokes have a part you believe.
"Eat the rich" is a gag about class disparity and cannibalism. But it's only joking about the cannibalism.
Assholes think 'you can joke about anything!' means comedy can never be hateful or hurtful, because they only understand comedy as cruelty you're not allowed to get mad at. If Dave Chappelle keeps shitting on trans people, onstage, well that's gotta be fine, because it's onstage. He's a comedian. And therefore a nihilist. He doesn't mean things when he says words! No matter what he also says offstage.
In reality - you can get away with anything, so long as audiences trust you don't mean it. This is why people get a free pass to demean their own ingroup. We assume folks aren't racist about themselves. But with enough context - even that can break. Human beings are fantastic at discerning meaning. So even hilariously clever phrasing can't stop deeply bigoted stereotypes from piercing the social expectations that make stand-up work, and leave people questioning the bit.
Tbh "eat the rich" has some pretty uncomfortable historical connotations when it comes to Maoist China. I know survivors of the cultural revolution and they definitely don't find that shit funny.
It is a simplification of a longer concept "When people having nothing more to eat they will eat the rich" which is kinda seperate from the whole Maoist China thing. Also the cultural revolution was a complete fuckup seperate from the original meaning, one is about desperation of the common people the other is another example why vanguardists need to be stabbed before they cause a famine.
Yes I understand that ostensible origin, but the fact remains that cannibalism was used as a weapon for political violence, and saying "eat the rich" absolutely evokes that memory in the people who lived through it. Especially when it used as a political slogan.
How pathetic is it that certain comedians are mad because the audience won't laugh at their jokes?
If Anthony Jeselnik can still go out there and make the jokes he does, then its not that people are not laughing at your offensive joke, they just not laughing at your shit joke.
Its just a skill issue.
The cast make up for him by being so ridiculous and the concept being stupid but funny.
Its worth pirating it to watch, reminds me of the cheesy early 2000s comedies like Good Burger or like the stupidity of Mars attacks which is a damn good piece of comedy.
Louis-Dreyfus also is the daughter of billionaire financier Gerard Louis-Dreyfus, who was reported to be worth $4 billion at the time of his death in 2016.
I’m a fucking actively-performing stand-up comic and now is the best (and onlyest) time to be funny!
(And if you’re checking my comment history, thinking “hey, you can’t be two things, you can’t be a beige camry haver and a stand-up comic, I assure you, I can. In fact, I would say the beige camry is the quintessential broke-ass underpaid performer car. But it’s also completely paid off, so neener.)
I think being "PC" requires more work. Not that, that is a bad thing.
They were low hanging fruit back in the day, part of what made them funny was them being "bad" people were like "oh I shouldn't laugh at this". But things change.
Ive likely been in over 1000 comedy gigs and likely watched twice as many, I've toured a comedy tour and done a bit of TV. Not that I'm the number 1 expert but hopefully that qualifies me a little
People often get the concept of what is "allowed" wrong.
Truly, anything can be funny — with a caveat, even the most taboo subjects: rape, the holocaust, the n-word... But it requires a lot of thought, talent, practice, luck, risk and lived experience to tackle those.
In the same way that I can read the Wikipedia on nuclear meltdowns but you shouldn't call me first if one actually happens, if you don't have lived experience of an event, you take a massive risk when you do comedy about it.
If you dont have that lived experience, I'd call on the reader to reflect on how good a movie about the military is without someone knowing the difference between a colonel and a captain, or what happens if you get shot. You expect the author to have done their research, and the best authors have done incredible amounts and are very accurate.
It's not that you can't joke about XYZ - it's that if XYZ is a topic that could cause people to stop having a good time and it's your job to make them have a good time, the expectation is on you to artfully craft that entertainment and joyful experience for all and any who are watching your work.
I saw a few excellent stand up bits from women about their sexual assault/rape experiences. I've seen excellent stand up bits from men criticizing rape culture, media reactions to rape, rape as a war crime. I have never seen an excellent stand up bit defending, recommending, reenacting, or pretending/admitting to have committed rape.
Same with cancer, incest, anti-semitism, racism...
It's an art form, there are formulae to follow of course (rising action/falling action, punch word of the punch line, slingshot structure, call backs, the dip) but there is no unified formula that if you diss trans people or people Downs Syndrome in this exact way you can get away with it. Just doesn't exist. Like how there's no good way to get your dick out in the office.
Now if you are a member of a community, and you work hard on creating an entertainment experience that makes people comfortable and you're talented, likeable, practiced, skilled, and lucky - people might laugh. But then, also you get 10 seconds before they expect something else - is it worth all that to craft the prior 10 seconds when you could also joke about literally anything else?
Excellent take, well stated.
I am however obligated to point to a Jimmy Carr bit where he explains punching down and the waiver for demeaning any group you're part of... followed by "So pedophiles, right? They're always fucking immature assholes."
Jimmy Carr is also very good at what he does, and, in my opinion - does tread that line really well. I dont mind admitting - better than I could.
He also lives in the world of satire / the boufant / the grotesque whereas none of cast of Seinfeld really does. And, as that's the world he lives in, expectations are matched.
Also, he likely couldn't do his most contentious material if he wasn't famous and was doing a 15 min set on a cruise line.
The other side of this is that a shock comic telling an offensive joke at a show where everyone in attendance has consented to shock comedy, does not give you the right to tell the same joke at the office Christmas party. It's honestly shocking how many times I've heard "you can't be offended by a south park joke" from otherwise well adjusted people.
You also don't have to be completely PC if you're funny.
If you're making fun of marginalized groups and it's not even funny, that's when people start complaining imo
