https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/09/technology/driver-scores-insurance-data-apps.html?unlocked_article_code=1.yU0.rnyY.alPaR_CdREQ4
The insurance industry, hungry for insights into how people drive, has turned to automakers and smartphone apps like Life360.
LOL I always knew that creepy Life360 shit would come back to bite people in the ass eventually.
Nah it was biting people long before that, those tracker apps are practically purpose built to enable abusive relationships and family dynamics.
My daughter has been trying to get me to install this for years. My refusal has been vindicated! I kept telling her I don't trust it. And she drives like me and her premiums are nuts even for her age and she's been lucky and has a great driving record.
Driving behavior analysis, or telematics, as the insurance industry calls it, could be better for consumers, leading to personalized rates that are more fair. Plus, if people have to pay more for their risky driving, they may drive more cautiously, leading to safer roads. But this will happen only if drivers are aware that their behavior is being monitored.
I'm so sick of this shit.
Just like the stop sign cameras, this only increases safety by penalizing and then monetizing minor mistakes that humans make. This is not about safety, it's about maximizing income through technological micromanaging of drivers who have not caused an accident and were not in danger of causing one.
You'd also have to be a damn fool not to realize that all the data they're collecting may not apply to their rate structure today, but in the future that rate structure will change, and suddenly a history of driver data you let them gather about you goes from being unremarkable to indicative of a problem.
The shareholders are demanding a blood sacrifice, so rates suddenly go up for people that have a driver score beneath a certain threshold where previously that threshold was higher.
Or some new bullshit study comes out claiming people that listen to podcasts while driving are infinitesimally more likely to cause an accident than people that listen to music, and whoops, Michael Barbaro has been your constant companion on every morning commute for the last 4 years. That's a pattern of risky behavior.
And if they think that this monitoring is going to help anything when people know about it, they need to learn about Goodharts' Law:
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure
As soon as this becomes a thing people will get anxious and petty about it, and they will start trying to game the system, and that system gaming will take some portion of their focus away from driving and guess what, that's going to make them worse drivers.
I look forward to running their shit in an Android emulator that feeds it bullshit until my rates go down
That's what we did. We were told the negative criteria were frequent driving, night driving, and all the driving BS you'd expect - hard stops, fast corners, etc. The company used a phone app, so we only installed it on my phone, had it disabled most of the time, and enabled it once or twice a week for a painfully slow drive to the grocery store just around the corner.
We had an amazing score which resulted in... No discount! We actually paid more. We got some bullshit low percentage off which was simultaneously offset by a mid-year rate increase. They claimed they had to reevaluate our rates any time they added a discount. Total bullshit.
I drive my car like I stole it. I will continue to drive my car and beat on it like it owes me money. I will never put a dongle in my obd2 port from my insurance company. I will never have any stupid app I don't need on my phone and my car is no longer hooked up to onstar. Fuck that. You put that shit in your car, you will never see lower rates, you'll just see smarter advertising. However, if you drive like me, I'm sure they'll charge you more or drop you.
Not calmly, I use the gas pedal and I'll drive 5 over the speed limit unless it's residential, then I'm cool.
I agree with you, but I still hope for your sake and others that you drive relatively safe and make good driving choices lmao
I do, I don't drive dangerously, I just like to feel the g's when I hit the gas and I don't like to be behind anyone at a light because 99 out of 100 times they're either going to sit on their phone, or take off slower than I can walk. If I'm in front of you, I promise you'll never have a second wasted because of my driving.
UPS drivers have been dealing with telematics for 20+ years. It tracks stuff like whether you back before you park or afterwards. How far you back. If your seatbelt is being used. If your cargo door is open while driving. Vehicle speed. Etc.
You WILL be observed and your behavior WILL be profitable. Failure to comply will result in a fine.
This is actually the thing that gives me most privacy assurance. My car company does offer this as an insurance product to themselves, transparently. Since they’re honest about this part of it, and have less profit incentive to those of us who don’t agree, I’m a bit assured that they are not motivated to sell my data to my actual insurer
If you think your insurance company isn’t selling your data to other companies, you are in for a surprise.
My insurance company, for example, requires so many permissions for their app, just to show my insurance coverage. I refuse to use it because they don’t need my contacts, calendar, use details, phone information, location, network status, and whatever else they are asking for. They have no use for this information, so why would they collect it? Oh right, because they are greedy and consider customers to be multiple revenue streams.
Part of the privacy policy for using the app is agreeing to be a product for them. Hard pass. I give them more than enough money considering they have never paid out a single fucking penny for anything (tho we’ll see how I feel tomorrow when the adjuster comes out to inspect the storm damage to my roof - probably the same.)
If a scammy company like insurance is doing a thing, you can bet they are not being benevolent. They are taking whatever you give them and it will fuck you eventually.
I interact with my insurer, over the phone, through an intermediary. And of course I pay them. The only info they have is pii and financial. My driving history and score is available from the state.
My last at least two cars likely report highly detailed driving info to their manufacturers, and I really can’t do anything about it. I care enough to click “no” wherever I can but not naive enough to believe it
However my current vehicle manufacturer also does insurance. If you use their insurance, you are letting them rate your driving by every little minutia. They are less likely to sell this data because they have a product that it’s a differentiator for: it’s not in their best interest to give competitors their competitive advantage
If only we had lawmakers that kept greedy corporations in check, instead of bickering over bullshit.
Greedy corporations pay the lawmakers to bicker over bullshit instead of regulating them.
Our insurance company offered a rate reduction if we installed a device on the cars to monitor how we drove. It we met whatever metric they set we’d get a discount for “safe driving”.
Hell no. I’m paying full price to not have them looking over my shoulder while driving.
Because you know that the data will be sold, or even used to classify your risk as a driver and potentially raise your rates. There’s nothing altruistic about these companies.
To anyone who doesn't believe you and thinks they might actually he able to get better rates through an app like that...
You know how health insurance companies charge hefty premiums with ridiculously high copays, but you figure "If I really need something covered, though, they'll pay it and I won't go bankrupt", but yet they still find a way to have so few scruples that they'll fight you on the services you have them billed for because they are a corporation beholden to shareholders and will do everything in their power to hang onto every single dollar possible?
Your car insurance is provided by a corporation.
It's a scam, anyway. I did it once with Progressive when I got my first car. Had good ratings, was promised a solid discount. Next bill comes and it's the same amount as the previous bill. I call them and they say that the rate went up but with the discount it conveniently went back to the old rate.
I've had the same experience with a different insurance provider. In a different country.
They're all the same.
I tried it once. Installed the app on my phone. The error rate in the data they collected was ridiculously high. Get a phone call while driving? Welp, now it says you were on the phone for 45 seconds. Playing music through the stereo? No, you were clearly using your phone the entire time. Phone slides around on the console? You clearly must have mashed the brakes.
I decided that the best way for them to determine I was a safe driver was the fact that I haven't had an accident claim in years.
"wait, you said you'd protect me. i got into a fight right in front of you and you didn't help at all!"
"oh but i did, boss. i was going to join in and kick your ass as well but decided to protect you from my ass kicking and stood still instead"
The article photo looks like these three women have slowed down to get a good look at me as I struggle to keep my food away from three hungry raccoons in my underwear (me in my underwear, not the raccoons) on my front lawn next to a bouncy castle the raccoons have all but taken over at this point.
Honestly at that point how much can you guarantee that none of those raccoons has been inside your underwear, at least partially with a claw or something?
At the rate things are going they probably will take your underwear as well.
I can see it, in slow-mo, the girl on the back would take out her phone and started recording; The car windows slowly rolled up.
The girl in the passenger seat clearly has a look of "we knew this was going to happen", too.
infos & some criticism of the app :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life360
(also some cars have integrated tracking)
(also some cars have integrated tracking)
Pretty much every single car made in the last 5 years has it. And it's been in cars starting in the 90s so just because your car is a 2015 doesn't mean it's safe.
Every car. Not pretty much every one, but every one. Telemetry boxes have been around for a while and you can even get Telemetry Insurance if you have one. I think by 2015 all manufacturers had them.
Edit: I want to also state this is for the US. Other nations are also doing this, but may not be there yet.
How would someone go about finding out if their older car has this?
I have a 2012 Honda civic coupe and I can’t find anything about telemetry, but I doubt that means anything.
Years ago I found a good list of manufacturers and the year they became compliant. I can't seem to find the same list today (isn't that the way with the internet?). I did find this site that seems to list the recovery capability of the vehicles which indicates whether they are compliant or not. This should suffice:
https://blackboxrecovery.com/supported-vehicles/honda?rq=honda
It looks like you are in luck! Bad luck anyways. 2012 was the first year that Honda model was compliant according to that site.
Edit: Here is another list so you might cross check (PDF warning): https://www.collision-recon.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/EDR-Supported-Vehicles-List.pdf
Well that’s disappointing. But I did a bit more looking and at least it looks like it needs to be actively plugged into something to get information out of. This model year/trim package doesn’t really have, like, stuff? Just Bluetooth, and looks like that’s not useful for anything but audio.
Definitely wish I could entirely disable it, but.. is what it is I guess, and at least it’s not phoning that info home, or sending to anyone else.
This is what I found from 2014, so before every car was a full service internet infotainment spyware system on wheels.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/car-black-box-recorders-capture-crash-data.html
Yes, whilst you do have a telemetry box, it is not phoning home. Data must be actively pulled from it by hand. As you know, typically this is done after an accident to better tell what the car went through. I know there are people who have sought to disable the boxes, but I don't know the legal or insurance ramifications of doing so. It is also difficult to locate them as they are "hidden" in the mass of wiring and other components. There are probably manufacturer-specific auto forum discussions on the matter to refer to.
If you care about not being tracked, look up how to remove the cellular modem in your car. I found instructions on how to do this with my vehicle and it's pretty easy.
Till they get rid of car ownership; then you are on the hook for damaging their car.
Hmm I hope this is not a veiled threat of suicide.... Because the disappearance of ownership is almost here
Of course not. I just don't think car ownership is going anywhere for decades. The government doesn't move that fast for anything. I asked in another place in the thread why the guy thought that but just got downvoted for some reason.
Precisely because the government drags their feet with proper regulation is why we are here
The corporations keep eroding your rights to own anything in the contracts they make you sign (to buy a car for example)
They reserve the right to turn features off or hide them behind paywalls without your agreement ... They reserve the right to spy on your with sensors you paid for and sell the data to whomever they want without compensation to you or liability over the consequences of that data being out there
They reserve the right to terminate your warranty if you do anything to your car they do not approve of
These measures literally dilute what "owning a car" means... This is what people refer to when they say ownership is coming to an end. It doesn't mean you can't have a car... It means the car is not quite yours and may be doing more work and money for someone else after you nicely paid for it
I get what you're saying, and I'm as frustrated as any other privacy-aware person, but until they can prevent you from reselling your car to another person (where all of this stuff means diddly squat), there's really nothing they can do. And I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.
Better get to it then. I'm predicting somewhere in the next 5 years, true car ownership will be dead for new cars
Secretly? Doubt it. Some are even loudly proud of doing it in the name of "saving you money". Long as its out in the open, ok. Do they tap into google drive and waze data though?
No they have been tapping into data directly from people's cars and that's even worse and more unexpected
They cannot tap into car data if the car doesn't record data. People must know that they get in cars that are capable of doing that.
I doubt my 2015, Skoda can record any data as it barely has electric windows. Surely if it doesn't have Onstar or whatever it's called now, it cannot be recording data. Perhaps people were unaware that their data was going to be available to these companies but they did know at some level that the data could be recorded. It's like buying a house with security cameras and then never wondering where the security cameras lead.
People have a blind spot for cars though, since it isn't connected to any wires, they feel as if it can't possibly be network connected, but of course it can.
My 2016 Ford did record data on hard stops and high-g turns and sent a report to my phone to help improve driving efficiency. It was an opt in feature and promoted as a way to increase range since it was a hybrid. However all that stopped when the 3g network was shut down and ford decided they wanted to charge 2k for a 4g upgrade
Yeah that might apply to all the newer connected vehicles, but mine is still just mine without any kind of wireless systems in it. Only way insurance could track my habits is with waze or google drive on my phone
There are dealerships that install aftermarket devices in their cars.
There are tutorials on YouTube: How to start your car if it has been remotely turned off by the dealership.
It ranges between disconnecting the battery and starting the car before the device from the dealership has connected to how to find it under your dash.
I just want to be able to corner hard and accelerate hard and do some spirited driving in a safe area without that info getting sold to insurance companies…
Nope, because I drive an 03 Jetta lol
Edit: I’m also quite selective about the stuff I install on my phone, and nothing has “always on” location data.
They're also buying tracking data from phone apps, so you'd need to make sure you're not running any of those either.
Now they can track your account through car tax records since you said that.
Next time say you drive a 1992 Pontiac Fiero
If you mean my car: I am the warranty, at this point. I will be driving that fucker into the ground. And then I will find another used, fun, manual transmission car, because I absolutely hate automatic transmissions on my daily driver. Manual is way more fun and engaging. No, I do not mind using it in traffic at all, and I’ve lived in LA with a manual transmission.
If you mean my phone: I don’t understand how you’ve phrased question.
I meant, eventually you'll run out of options and, even if buying used, you may be stuck with models that have all the tracking crap
pulls fuse for 4/5G car modem out
Oh dear! Looks like it broke!
Your move, car companies.
Edit: side note: not sure why it seems that you’re negging me for trying to wring as much life as possible out of a car? This is a very reasonable and feasible approach to take if you’re somewhat mechanically inclined, as I am.
not sure why it seems that you’re negging me for trying to wring as much life as possible out of a car? This is a very reasonable and feasible approach to take if you’re somewhat mechanically inclined, as I am.
Absolutely not. Sorry if I came across that way, I am actually on your "team" and plan to do the same with my current 7 year old car. I am not super mechanically inclined but I have learned enough for the basic maintenance: brakes, oil changes, general diagnostics.
The reason I was kind of grilling you is because I am looking ahead and thinking I will find myself in your spot. Eventually I will have to replace the car and I have no clue what to get that does not imply: 1) being spied on by the car and 2) paying for hardware that is useless unless I also pay a subscription.
Now back to the original point. Sure today you can pull a fuse and maybe disable the spying; specially since the car would be out of warranty or you don't care to risk losing it. However, if the trends continue, this could be something that renders your car uninsurable and would mean not legal to drive.
On my last insurance renewal, Belair argued heatedly with me because I refused to add their app on my phone to track my "driver behaviour". They insisted it would lead to a discount but I refused anyway. If they make it a mandatory requirement of insurance, we are fucked.
Fair enough. And no worries - tone sometimes gets lost or misinterpreted when commenting on the intertubes :)
Honestly, by the time we get to that point, I hope that mass transit has improved enough such that a car is no longer critical to have in most urban/semi-urban areas of America. But that also depends heavily on how politics pan out in the coming years.
For what it’s worth, I absolutely agree that the pervasive data-gathering bullshit they are trying to push on everyone is messed up.
Fair enough. And no worries - tone sometimes gets lost or misinterpreted when commenting on the intertubes :)
My kids often complain/make fun of me because I overuse the "..." they say I write too ominously LOL
Honestly, by the time we get to that point, I hope that mass transit has improved enough such that a car is no longer critical to have in most urban/semi-urban areas of America. But that also depends heavily on how politics pan out in the coming years.
For what it’s worth, I absolutely agree that the pervasive data-gathering bullshit they are trying to push on everyone is messed up.
I agree with you and hope you are right re public transit
My driving is being non-secretly scored, I have an app just for that. Currently it just complains that I have power saving mode on all the time, so I don't know if it's not working or if it is and I just can't see the results anymore. (I'm not turning off power saving mode.)
Does it actually tell you the results? I'm curious how they score your driving, and how effective it is. The scariest things I see on the road are things like:
I don't see how they'd measure how safe a driver you are.
Perhaps it's just that people are more careful when they know they're being monitored, and safe drivers are more likely to opt in?
For each trip it tells you things like how often you touch your phone, what % of the trip you spent using your phone, and how many times you braked hard (which is a proxy for things like tailgating or general inattentiveness, since it can't see the road). Mostly it seems to be a "don't use your phone" score. There's an overall score, and you can see how big your discount is, but the score itself is largely meaningless without the ability to compare to other drivers.
Does it have any mechanisms to detect someone who might just install the app on an old phone that just lives in the glove box? Seems like a real easy way to get around the "don't use your phone" aspect.
I think you need to use the same phone number you signed up with, but other than that I don't know. If you signed up with a burner phone, maybe you could do that.
Tailgating is actually pretty easy to measure - there are specific patterns of braking and acceleration.
Innatention may be measurable too. For example, if an inattentive driver frequently drifts from the center of the lane and makes small quick corrections periodically, that would be apparent from accelerometer data.
I don't know, but mine guesses correctly when I'm a passenger about 90% of the time. Unlike the other commenter, mine doesn't have a bluetooth connection to my car or a device in my car.
Once in a while I have to tell it I'm not driving.
There's an app installed on your phone and a separate bluetooth device you keep in your car.
By default, it assumes you're the driver of your car, but you can use the app to claim someone else was driving your car during a particular trip.
If you're in someone else's car, the app assumes you're not driving because the bluetooth device in your car isn't nearby.
I'm inclined to think this should be illegal because it could lead to a situation where insurance is unavailable to or unaffordable for anyone who doesn't opt in to fairly invasive tracking.
It is kinda like that. We have a tracker that we added because they increased the insurance rate and said if you install this device we'll keep the rate low based on driving patterns.
Basically records how often you drive, hard break/sharp turns, after midnight drives, etc. We don't drive the car often so the prob of accident is low but we recently learned that they can consider not driving enough also bad saying it can make you drive recklessly or sth.
It's also illegal in most jurisdictions. My point isn't that anyone should drive without insurance, but that allowing insurance companies to offer discounts for accepting spying will lead to the spying being effectively mandatory for most people.
I installed the app, did initial setup, then forced it to never update, shut off internet access, and disabled notifications. Still seeing the discount nearly 3 years later.
Nah, mine is pretty upfront about it. You can even opt in to get a device that plugs into your car to give them even more data to lower your premium if you're actually a good driver. That shit started when I was still in high school, too. Nobody else remember Flo from Progressive hawking these things?
There are legal hurdles to raising rates based on this data. The simple and obvious solution is to set the starting price as the worst-case driver scenario, then discount down from that.
It's the exact same thing, but worded different.
and do you have one of those? Because form what I hear they beep when you're being a good drive too and you end up being a worse (than good) driver trying not to get the beeps
I had one years ago... It never made a sound. It just recorded how I drove and I started getting safe driver discounts on my insurance.
I do. It doesn't make any sounds or have any lights. Thing you're describing sounds more like a similar device I know people busted with DUIs end up with forced to being used. It's beeping because it wants them to blow again since it's detecting them driving like shit and thinks they're drunk.
I had one and it definitely beeped if the light turned yellow and I stopped rather than blowing through a red light. It was a frustrating experience because it would happen even when driving a safe speed. You don't get dinged unless you have too many of them, but I suspect in a busy city with stop and go traffic it could be tough. I did end up. With the maximum discount though so it didn't end up being a big deal.
Yes. Not like I was slamming on my brakes, but it was a harder brake than normal. It was pretty sensitive imo, but think they are trying to detect people that are driving too closely to the person in front of them.
Jokes on them, I drive recklessly as hell and in twenty years am at fault for zero accidents, while my wife hates driving with me and drives incredibly cautiously and has been at fault in accidents. Can the algorithm see past 'this person accelerates quicker therefore should have a higher premium" because otherwise I feel like the old system was working. It was frustrating to pay more as a young male driver, but I've proven myself and my abilities behind the wheel and wish to continue to pay accordingly.
I drive recklessly as hell
...
but I've proven myself and my abilities behind the wheel
Pick one
A good/skilled driver is not necessarily a safe driver & vice versa.
For the pinnacle of that statement, look up the "suicide evo" on YT.
On public roads, a good driver is a safe driver. An F1 driver is a good driver but if they drive like that on the highway, they cease to be a good driver.
Pick one
No. I'll admit my verbage could probably use some work, but oh well. Many traffic laws exist to fund police departments. I obey the laws that are grounded in reality. I've driven professionally and if 10000 hours of practice makes mastery then I've easily at least tripled that, easy. If you're imagining someone driving like a complete douche that's probably not me, as I'm extremely considerate of other drivers, having no faith in their abilities or perceptions. But I hate being in a car and when I'm driving I want it to end as quickly as possible so I will speed through a yellow if there's visibility both ways and no cross traffic and I will speed on empty highways and I will treat traffic lights like four-way stops if there's no one else on the road. Etc
Sounds like something an irresponsible wreckless chode would do. I hope you're just kidding because I wouldn't want you to be an irresponsible wreckless chode.
Could you point out for me which behaviors are reckless, irresponsible, and chode like? I'm also dumb.
The entire second to last sent where you listed being wreckless and then ignoring that stop lights aren't in fact stop signs. Running red lights is very chode-like, speeding to get through yellows is wreckless, and both are irresponsible.
Oh, okay. Cool.
I'll reiterate the above examples are on empty roads, I don't take chances with other drivers. That being said there's no world where I'm wasting several minutes and gas just because a timer clicked off. I am a human being and while I respect machines and the intentions with which they were designed, machines hold no authority over me. And if it's weight based and you ride a motorcycle you literally have no other choice as the bike won't set it off. You can run the light or wait possibly hours for another vehicle to set it off for you. So if that makes me a chode then I guess I'm a big ol' tuna can.
I've witnessed plenty of chodes that think there are no other drivers on the road out between cities just running stop signs or lights getting into accidents because they weren't as alone as they thought.
I am a human being
Exactly. You're not perfect, and you will eventually fuck up and possibly hurt someone else or yourself if you don't adhere to driving safety 100% of the time you're behind the wheel.
Even professional drivers on an empty race track make mistakes. Don't think you're infallible just because you've been lucky so far.
It's pretty well established that women tend to get into more accidents than men, but they tend to be minor fender benders that don't cost all that much, while men tend to cause accidents very rarely, but when we do, multiple vehicles are destroyed and people die, and that's a great deal more expensive in the long run. So you haven't had an at fault accident in 20 years, doesn't mean you won't destroy a school bus tomorrow.